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Raistlin1040
2007-07-07, 10:23 AM
Is there a god somewhere that is like an evil Pelor? Similar power, but dark and evil? I'm trying to find one, but I can't find any that's a really good fit.

MandibleBones
2007-07-07, 10:37 AM
Nerull could do it - Darkness and Death vs. Light and Life, and all that - and I'm rather certain he's NE vs. Pelor's NG.

Similar power levels, too.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-07, 10:41 AM
There is no such god in the Greyhawk/"Standard D&D" pantheon of which I am aware.

Personally, I think gods are some of the easiest things to homebrew. All you really need starting out are an alignment, four or so fitting domains, a portfolio, and a small handful of basic tenets. Everything else can be fleshed out during play as the campaign evolves. So, if you can't find what you want, just make it up. :smallbiggrin:

jamroar
2007-07-07, 10:49 AM
Nerull could do it - Darkness and Death vs. Light and Life, and all that - and I'm rather certain he's NE vs. Pelor's NG.

Similar power levels, too.

Yup, Nerull is probably the closest match for a rival. Both primal Flan pantheon greater powers, Healing vs Death, Light vs. Darkness, NE vs. NG.

On the not strictly evil front, there's the rival Oeridian sun god Pholtus (LG/LN) of the Blinding Light, (Light, Resolution, Law, Order, Inflexibility), with worshippers commonly of the Lawful Annoying alignment. Imagine an entire flock of Miko Miyazaki clones, that's what his church is like.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-07, 11:36 AM
I think he means an evil sun god, which is a great idea--but doesn't seem to be well-represented in D&D. Try Sandstorm--there's a lot of sun-related deities there, I'm sure there's an evil one.

For how the sun could be bad, well, pick up Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-07, 12:00 PM
Actually, there don't appear to be any evil sun gods anywhere.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-07, 12:07 PM
Actually, there don't appear to be any evil sun gods anywhere.

Not even in Athas?

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-07, 12:10 PM
Dark Sun has no gods.

Attilargh
2007-07-07, 12:12 PM
Try Sandstorm--there's a lot of sun-related deities there, I'm sure there's an evil one.
There's ten deities in the book, and only one of them actually has the portfolio of the Sun. (He is Neutral, by the way.) Go figure.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-07, 12:13 PM
There's ten deities in the book, and only one of them actually has the portfolio of the Sun. (He is Neutral, by the way.) Go figure.

Well. Um. So much for that then?

DreadArchon
2007-07-07, 12:38 PM
Well, keep in mind that the D&D Sun domain has to be able to channel positive energy to do its thing. It'd be relatively easy to house rule in such a way as to allow clerics of evil gods to use the Sun domain, but by RAW, while you can choose Sun as an evil cleric, it won't do much for you.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-07, 12:40 PM
Deities and Demigods almost has one, the Destroyer aspect of Taiia, but not quite.

reorith
2007-07-07, 01:12 PM
...Similar power levels, too.

they're both over 9000!

Thanatos
2007-07-07, 01:15 PM
Actually, there don't appear to be any evil sun gods anywhere.Well considering it's the source of energy for all life on a planet, that's to be expected. You're not going to cast something as evil in your mythology when you're ultimately dependent on it, because that would mean you're constantly accepting life supporting gifts from the evil side.

I agree with Nerull being the most opposed deity, although the Flan-origin pantheon seems more primal and less rigid, so you wouldn't necessarily have them as dire enemies as you would with Hieronius and Hextor.

Dervag
2007-07-07, 01:44 PM
You could take the Aztec pantheon and run with it:

"The sun god requires a constant stream of human sacrifices to keep it burning!"

Of course, in the context of Aztec mythology, that shouldn't be considered evil, since everything required sacrifices, some of them human. But that's why you have to run with it.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-07, 01:49 PM
It would be an interesting situation if the Sun God really did need the sacrifices, and the sun would die without them...

RTGoodman
2007-07-07, 01:59 PM
Well, if you're looking to keep Pelor and just have a rival for him that's sort of his opposite, that would be pretty easy to homebrew.

I'd call him Rolep (NE Greater deity), and then give him domains like Evil, Moon (I think there's a Moon domain somewhere), Death, and maybe Destruction.

I think Pelor already has a beard, though, so Rolep might not have the goatee customary to evil identical twins.

Maxymiuk
2007-07-07, 02:13 PM
Alternately, just homebrew an Eclipse domain and stock it with darkness/shadow/vision related spells.

0oo0
2007-07-07, 02:35 PM
Well, if you're looking to keep Pelor and just have a rival for him that's sort of his opposite, that would be pretty easy to homebrew.

I'd call him Rolep (NE Greater deity), and then give him domains like Evil, Moon (I think there's a Moon domain somewhere), Death, and maybe Destruction.

I think Pelor already has a beard, though, so Rolep might not have the goatee customary to evil identical twins.

Forgotten Realms does have a Moon Domain, and I wouldn't be surprised if it showed up in other divine books as well

And Rolep sounds awesome by the way :smallcool:

Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-07, 03:52 PM
Actually, there don't appear to be any evil sun gods anywhere.

It's been 10 years since I last read a Forgotten Realms book, but wasnt there a Touareg-like-tribe in Anauroch that had an evil Sun Goddess?


You could take the Aztec pantheon and run with it:

"The sun god requires a constant stream of human sacrifices to keep it burning!"

Of course, in the context of Aztec mythology, that shouldn't be considered evil, since everything required sacrifices, some of them human. But that's why you have to run with it.

Actually, Huitzilopochtli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli) (major deity of War and the Sun) would probably qualify as NE.
He killed his sister Coyozhautli (the Moon), and demanded that their followers wage wars against their enemies with regularity in order to provide him with human sacrifices from the enemy soldiers captured in battle.

PlatinumJester
2007-07-07, 04:38 PM
Pelor must die. I say we feed him too the tarrasque along with Jozan (like in Ali's avie).

Callix
2007-07-07, 06:33 PM
Evil sun god? Desert campaign, anyone? Aside from that, what would Orcs make of the sun? It hurts their eyes. Much better to go by moonlight. If orcs aren't always evil, I can see a good tribe of Moon-worshippers who sustain themselves in the woods where the light isn't too harsh, and an evil tribe dedicated to the Sun-god who go out and murder and pillage. They might even adapt to sunlight and take over human communities, using the people as slaves. Change some basic assumptions about "people" and you can change all manner of things.

Vespe Ratavo
2007-07-07, 06:38 PM
Well, I think the Sun is always considered good due to the fact it gives light and life.

But what about its evil parts? We're talking about a giant ball of fire orbiting dangerously close to the planet here.

I imagine an evil Sun cleric would focus on dehydration, fire, burning, and such.

Neko
2007-07-07, 06:47 PM
course if you wanted to go anti-sun and not go moon... could always custom make some sort of Blackhole domain since a blackhole is made from a sun

Dervag
2007-07-07, 06:55 PM
Actually, Huitzilopochtli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli) (major deity of War and the Sun) would probably qualify as NE.
He killed his sister Coyozhautli (the Moon), and demanded that their followers wage wars against their enemies with regularity in order to provide him with human sacrifices from the enemy soldiers captured in battle.Well, the first part of that (murdering family members) is practically typical in polytheistic pantheons. Look at Zeus, for instance.

As for demanding that his followers wage war and provide him with sacrifices, again, that was normal in the Aztec context. Human sacrifice was a very recurrent theme in Aztec mythology, and one that they considered to be necessary and appropriate.

So if you approach the Aztec pantheon from an Aztec perspective, ther would be plenty of neutral and good deities who requested or required human sacrifice.

On the other hand, if you approach the Aztec pantheon from the more standardized perspective of a D&D setting, you come to the conclusion that practically all their deities are evil.

Leon
2007-07-07, 07:11 PM
Not even in Athas?

No, Clerics worship Patron Elements (ones that saved them somehow) or the Sorcerer Kings, Templars worship the Sorcerer Kings

Neko
2007-07-07, 07:31 PM
course when I created a pantheon for my world I made I think 22 or 23 gods in total to cover most everything including a god that was an elemental

Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-07, 11:54 PM
On the other hand, if you approach the Aztec pantheon from the more standardized perspective of a D&D setting, you come to the conclusion that practically all their deities are evil.

Not true, there were several Mexica (AKA Aztec) deities that asked for flower sacrifices, or agricultural sacrifices (Xochiquetzal, Centeotl), or no sacrifices at all (Quetzalcoatl)

The fact that spaniard missionaries all painted the Mesoamerican peoples as bloodthirsty savages does not necessarily mean it's all true...

...and yes, the Sun and War god Huitzilopochtli was the main god of the aggressive and expansionistic Mexica nation, but that doesnt mean all the pantheon was the same

Hectonkhyres
2007-07-08, 12:59 AM
they're both over 9000!
...
I hate you. So very much.

Starsinger
2007-07-08, 03:25 AM
Is there a god somewhere that is like an evil Pelor? Similar power, but dark and evil? I'm trying to find one, but I can't find any that's a really good fit.

Why, Pelor of course.. I mean my personal favorite idea, is that Pelor is actually an evil deity, biding his time until he can take over the world from the other deities. Sort of like Thakisis. I mean it's the perfect disguise really, who actually cares about Pelor? So he just sits around waiting for the opportunity to strike, and then BAM! He'll take over the world. Or destroy it, I'm particularly fond of the notion that he's Therizdun (sp?).

But, you say, Pelor turns undead, how can he be evil? Pelor is obviously just anti-undead, like St. Cuthbert. Especially if he's Therizdun, then he's anti-undead because they represent a step backwards in the destruction of all things.

And what's this you say? Access to the domains that Therizdun doesn't possess? The answer lies in Deity-less clerics. They can use domains of their choice, obviously Clerics of Pelor are deity-less clerics who believe in the same "false" deity, the Persona of Pelor.

And there's my crack-pot conspiracy theory that Pelor is evil, boiled down to the shelliest, nuttiest, nutshell.

The Faceless
2007-07-08, 04:11 AM
Why, Pelor of course.. I mean my personal favorite idea, is that Pelor is actually an evil deity, biding his time until he can take over the world from the other deities. Sort of like Thakisis. I mean it's the perfect disguise really, who actually cares about Pelor? So he just sits around waiting for the opportunity to strike, and then BAM! He'll take over the world. Or destroy it, I'm particularly fond of the notion that he's Therizdun (sp?).

But, you say, Pelor turns undead, how can he be evil? Pelor is obviously just anti-undead, like St. Cuthbert. Especially if he's Therizdun, then he's anti-undead because they represent a step backwards in the destruction of all things.

And what's this you say? Access to the domains that Therizdun doesn't possess? The answer lies in Deity-less clerics. They can use domains of their choice, obviously Clerics of Pelor are deity-less clerics who believe in the same "false" deity, the Persona of Pelor.

And there's my crack-pot conspiracy theory that Pelor is evil, boiled down to the shelliest, nuttiest, nutshell.
Hold on there, I'm a little shaky on how my gods work, but doesn't belief in something give life to it in D+D? so, all those clerics believing in "False Pelor" are going to create a Real Pelor. he'll start out weak, but grow in power. and of course Therizdun isn't too happy about that. so, the players have to protect the young Pelor from his "creator" and help him become the kind of deity that he's meant to be, showing him how to run his religion and help his followers... damn, this is turning into one hell of a campaign idea.

Starsinger
2007-07-08, 04:20 AM
Hold on there, I'm a little shaky on how my gods work, but doesn't belief in something give life to it in D+D? so, all those clerics believing in "False Pelor" are going to create a Real Pelor. he'll start out weak, but grow in power. and of course Therizdun isn't too happy about that. so, the players have to protect the young Pelor from his "creator" and help him become the kind of deity that he's meant to be, showing him how to run his religion and help his followers... damn, this is turning into one hell of a campaign idea.

Actually, I think when the charade was over, and "Pelor" revealed himself, Pelor would become a vestige, like Tenebrous did when Orcus quit pretending to be someone else.

Lavidor
2007-07-08, 05:26 AM
Why, Pelor of course.. I mean my personal favorite idea, is that Pelor is actually an evil deity, biding his time until he can take over the world from the other deities. Sort of like Thakisis. I mean it's the perfect disguise really, who actually cares about Pelor? So he just sits around waiting for the opportunity to strike, and then BAM! He'll take over the world. Or destroy it, I'm particularly fond of the notion that he's Therizdun (sp?).

But, you say, Pelor turns undead, how can he be evil? Pelor is obviously just anti-undead, like St. Cuthbert. Especially if he's Therizdun, then he's anti-undead because they represent a step backwards in the destruction of all things.

And what's this you say? Access to the domains that Therizdun doesn't possess? The answer lies in Deity-less clerics. They can use domains of their choice, obviously Clerics of Pelor are deity-less clerics who believe in the same "false" deity, the Persona of Pelor.

And there's my crack-pot conspiracy theory that Pelor is evil, boiled down to the shelliest, nuttiest, nutshell.

I, on behalf of the guild of crackpot theorists, hereby induct you as a member of our saced society. Your theory also wins a copy of the Golden Miko, basis for half the crackpot theorys ever developed in GitP. We have no official thread, because then the purple-haired Cigar of Logic would track us down and eat us.

Attilargh
2007-07-08, 05:38 AM
Hold on there, I'm a little shaky on how my gods work, but doesn't belief in something give life to it in D+D?
That's actually post-Time of Troubles Forgotten Realms. The standard DnD pantheon just is.

kpenguin
2007-07-08, 05:58 AM
Ummmm, don't existing deities give godhood to very powerful souls or something like that? I seem to recall Heironeous and Hextor being mortals at some point or another.

Dervag
2007-07-08, 08:30 AM
Not true, there were several Mexica (AKA Aztec) deities that asked for flower sacrifices, or agricultural sacrifices (Xochiquetzal, Centeotl), or no sacrifices at all (Quetzalcoatl)

The fact that spaniard missionaries all painted the Mesoamerican peoples as bloodthirsty savages does not necessarily mean it's all true...OK. I take it back. Many of their deities would be evil if you used standardized D&D rules to determine what constitutes 'evil'. Not 'all'.

Frankly, compared to the Eurasian-based, Western-influenced consensus culture that now dominates the planet, the Aztec culture came about as close to being an alien civilization as this world has ever seen. Mesoamerican philosophy was very different from the philosophical tradition that informs most of our thought; and their religions were so different from the ones that have dominated most of the 'Old World' for the past several centuries as to be almost incommensurable.

So it's frankly unreasonable to assign D&D alignments to Aztec deities in the first place. Again, if the Aztecs were making up D&D, they probably wouldn't consider human sacrifice to be a sign that a deity was 'evil' any more than Christians consider the doctrine of transsubstantiation to be a kind of creepy pseudocannibalism. They just didn't see it that way.

kpenguin
2007-07-08, 09:23 AM
Now that you say it, transubstantiation is a sort of creepy pseudocannibalism. Ah well, it's not actual cannibalism so its in the clear. :smallsmile:

The Faceless
2007-07-08, 10:26 AM
That's actually post-Time of Troubles Forgotten Realms. The standard DnD pantheon just is.

dang. ah well, they're gods, its not like they can't withstand a little houseruling.

Dervag
2007-07-08, 11:00 AM
Now that you say it, transubstantiation is a sort of creepy pseudocannibalism... :smallsmile:Not if you ask a Christian. Which, of course, is kind of the point.

But it's an important example. If you think a religious rite sounds strange and creepy because it steps on the toes of your taboos, compare it to a priest passing around bread and/or wine while reciting "flesh of my flesh, blood of my blood..."

The rite of communion is so universally accepted in Christianized societies that nobody thinks of it as creepy unless it is specifically pointed out that the recipients are symbolically eating someone. Of course, it helps that the act really is on the symbolic side; no actual human sacrifices like the ones the Aztecs used. But we don't give the symbolism much thought because it fades into the background, much as do other religious and mystic traditions in the West.

Likewise, human sacrifices were an intensely symbolic and mystical thing to the Aztecs, and so I imagine that they took them more or less for granted, rather than as some kind of horrible price demanded of them by evil, evil gods who would otherwise wreak terrible vengeance.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-07-08, 07:30 PM
I decided to go looking for domain choices for an Evil Sun God, keeping in mind that Sun Domain = Anti-Undead and Evil and Death Domains = Pro-Undead.

PHB: Sun, Fire, Destruction.
Players Guide to Faerun: Hatred, Repose, Suffering.
Spell Compendium: Hatred, Suffering (very similar, but not identical to those in PGtF).

If you have either the Players Guide to Faerun or the Spell Compendium, the options are better. PGtF has the Repose Domain, which is a good alternative to the Death Domain for Death Deities who actually oppose undead. Both books have the Hatred and Suffering domains, which are also good domains for an evil Sun god.

Sun, Fire, and Repose describe a deity of the Sun, Fire, and Death. Adding Destruction or Hatred gives the deity an additional evil flair, while adding Suffering brings to mind a harsh desert sun god. Sticking to just Core, Sun, Fire and Destruction are good for an Anti-Pelor Sun God.


Edit: Repose is also in Sandstorm (which has some other potentially useful domains in it), Faith and Pantheons (FR), and this SRD: http://srd.plush.org/clericDomains.html

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-08, 07:58 PM
Well considering it's the source of energy for all life on a planet, that's to be expected.
It's also a major source of death. Heat stroke, drought, forest fires, etc. are all nasty aspects.

I'd rather like to play up a Neutral sun deity that takes that duality and runs with it.


No, Clerics worship Patron Elements (ones that saved them somehow) or the Sorcerer Kings, Templars worship the Sorcerer Kings
There are also the Athasian para-elements, embodiments of a combination of two non-opposing elements:
Water + Air = Rain
Earth + Water = Silt
Fire + Earth = Magma
Air + Fire = Sun
A dwarven sun cleric played a major role in the Prism Pentad, the novel series that ushered in the revised edition of Dark Sun.

Check out the Dark Sun rules at The Burnt World of Athas (http://www.athas.org) to see more on the para-elements.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-08, 08:30 PM
I'd rather like to play up a Neutral sun deity that takes that duality and runs with it.


How about Taiia (Deities & Demigods)? She's got four arms, three eyes, and a pronounced monotheistic bent.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-08, 08:46 PM
How about Taiia (Deities & Demigods)? She's got four arms, three eyes, and a pronounced monotheistic bent.
Oh, yeah. Forgot about her. :smallbiggrin:

Gerrtt
2007-07-08, 09:29 PM
Well...he's in FR but how about Cyric? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyric)

Amphimir Míriel
2007-07-08, 10:09 PM
OK. I take it back. Many of their deities would be evil if you used standardized D&D rules to determine what constitutes 'evil'. Not 'all'.


Now we are on the same page :smallwink:



Frankly, compared to the Eurasian-based, Western-influenced consensus culture that now dominates the planet, the Aztec culture came about as close to being an alien civilization as this world has ever seen. Mesoamerican philosophy was very different from the philosophical tradition that informs most of our thought; and their religions were so different from the ones that have dominated most of the 'Old World' for the past several centuries as to be almost incommensurable.


And it was also true the other way around, the native american nations all reacted to the european invasions pretty much as if they were aliens invading.



So it's frankly unreasonable to assign D&D alignments to Aztec deities in the first place. Again, if the Aztecs were making up D&D, they probably wouldn't consider human sacrifice to be a sign that a deity was 'evil' any more than Christians consider the doctrine of transsubstantiation to be a kind of creepy pseudocannibalism. They just didn't see it that way.

Actually, to die as a human sacrifice was considered a high honor, and a much better fate than that of a regular farmer. For warriors, to die in battle or in sacrifice (after capture) guaranteed them a Valhalla-like heavenly afterlife.

Now you can't tell me this is absolutely and utterly alien, since it is quite similar to the beliefs of many islamic extremists* that interpret the Quran in a way that guarantees heaven to suicide bombers...

* Disclaimer: I am aware that only a small minority of Muslims believe this and that most are horrified by the acts of violence in the middle east. This is not to be interpreted as a religious flame, nor an invitation to derail the discussion.

Now going back to an evil Pelor...

Starsinger's theory is just crackpot, but an interesting way to twist an Epic campaign.

I would instead vote for a homebrew solution... Fire, Sun, Death domains with the special power to destroy water (as an opposite effect of the Create Water spell) once per day or something like that.

Jimmy Discordia
2007-07-08, 10:58 PM
Okay, this is veering away from finding a real "anti-Pelor," since I'm not really familiar with any of the D&D gods outside of the PHB, but I love the idea of a tyrannical sun god. I'm thinking that in their reasoning, the sun is the "ruler" of the heavens, so why should the sun god not rule over all the other gods? By the same reasoning, why shouldn't his priests rule the world? It just makes sense... if you can't see that, I have some helpful devotional literature that just might convince you of the rightness of my arguments. And by "some helpful devotional literature" I mean "a huge army led by clerics who flame strike first and ask questions later."

Yeah... the LE, positive-energy-focused tyrant sun god is definitely going to find his way into one of my campaigns. Perhaps he hates undead not so much because they're eeeevil, but because his priests can't make them, which makes them the tool of the other evil gods. Evil gods tend not to get along so well... maybe his church even keeps up the pretense of being the "good guys," and even goes so far as to send adventurers on missions against the Evil gods, just like a Good god would. Only the upper echelons of the priesthood really know that the focus isn't on stomping out evil, but on increasing their own god's power among the Evil gods.

So, to get this more on-topic, I have no idea who you'd use as an anti-Pelor in the traditional D&D pantheon. But it would be a lot of fun to make one. I think I'm going to.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-09, 04:13 AM
but I love the idea of a tyrannical sun god.

The Monster Campaign I'm planning is getting one of these. It will be "Lawful Good", but it would probably not be "Good" in a standard campaign. This is because it throws the alignment system around into complete disarray.

The humans in this will be the primary antagonists, and also the only civilization with 'gods'. The head of the pantheon is a tyrannical sun god, who has declared disobedience and any deviation what so ever evil. There are many contradictions, but it is also considered evil to point this out.

Or even think it.


It's kind of not like regular D&D by design though, so isn't suitable for this Anti Pelor.

Jimmy Discordia
2007-07-09, 08:14 AM
The Monster Campaign I'm planning is getting one of these. It will be "Lawful Good", but it would probably not be "Good" in a standard campaign. This is because it throws the alignment system around into complete disarray.

The humans in this will be the primary antagonists, and also the only civilization with 'gods'. The head of the pantheon is a tyrannical sun god, who has declared disobedience and any deviation what so ever evil. There are many contradictions, but it is also considered evil to point this out.

Or even think it.


It's kind of not like regular D&D by design though, so isn't suitable for this Anti Pelor.

Nice. Bonus points if you make some of his proclamations totally nonsensical. "It is an Abomination unto Me to Ride a Black Horse Whilst Facing Backwards. On Tuesdays."

Or maybe I've been reading too much Terry Pratchett. From what you've said here, your campaign doesn't sound quite that silly.

Bonus points again if at least one of his names is The Authority. Any campaign where the Big God is also the Big Bad needs a His Dark Materials reference or two.

Keld Denar
2007-07-09, 09:04 AM
The Monster Campaign I'm planning is getting one of these. It will be "Lawful Good", but it would probably not be "Good" in a standard campaign. This is because it throws the alignment system around into complete disarray.

The humans in this will be the primary antagonists, and also the only civilization with 'gods'. The head of the pantheon is a tyrannical sun god, who has declared disobedience and any deviation what so ever evil. There are many contradictions, but it is also considered evil to point this out.


Greyhawk canon has Pholtus, who is almost up to this calibre. Most Pholtites WILL flamestrike first, and ask questions later. In the Theocracy of the Pale, a kingdom run by the clergy of Pholtus, it is outright illegal to be a human who openly worships a god other than Pholtus. Punishment means "reconditioning camps" with repeating offenders burned as heretics. Demihumans polytheism is relaxed, mostly because they are "confused lesser races." Typical Pholtite slogans are "Burn the heretic, my child is illuminated, and by the One True Path" Near fanatical lawful goodness that boarders on evil. It would be an interesting roleplaying environment to be in. Hiding your holy symbol, fearing for the illuminated gestopo, subverting the religion/government.