Bard+Warweaver good idea?

[Thaneus]

Hi Playground
i am new to this forum of knowledge and want your opinion on this character concept.

My aim is a supporting character with music and arcane spells and healing. He is the Main Buffer in the Group.
Otherwise the Group has a cleric of Garagos + Psionic Warrior; Psionic Theurge; Bowpulling Drow as main skillmonkey level 15; the big fat half minotaur as the tripper level 15; a wiz+frostmage+elemental savant transformer, as i would call him

Allowed is all which my gm approves off (which is no Factotum and no Incantatrix because they feel to overpowered, which i feel very unfortunate) but also Dragon Mag is allowed when gaining his approval.
Starting is with 105,000 exp (level 15) and 200,000gp

estimated Build so far:
Bard7 + Warweaver 2 + Virtuoso 1 + Sublime Chord 1 + Warweaver 3 + Sublime Chord 1 + Virtuoso 5
Race Silverbrown Human
2 Flaws allowed
32 Points array;
Template: Halve Nymph (LA+2) buy off Level 6; 9 -> Level 13
Starting Str 8; Dex 14; Con 12; Int 18; Cha 22; Wis 10 (Racial; template mod added)

Skills Perform Sing 14; Concentration 1; Perform String 13; Bluff 10; Craft Weaving 6; Intimidate 5 (10cc); Knowlage Arcaner 13 Listen 14; Profession Astrologer 6; Diplomacy 14 Spellcraft 6; Use Magic Device 13; Balance 5; Sense Motiv 5

Feats:
1st Level: Focused Performer(Drag Mag 338) ; Enlarge Spell PHB ; Versatile Spellcaster RotD; Dragonfire Inspiration DM;
3rd Level: Focused Performance (Drag Mag 338)
6th Level: Extend Spell PHB
9th Level: Words of Creation BoED
12th Level: Melodic Casting CM
15th Level: Lyric Spell CV

Feats from Location: Song of the Heart HH Location CS; Iron Will OH Location CS

Focused Performer is ruled to only affect when i have continuous concentration to maintain a spell or performance and been attacked which is not provided by Melodic Casting
WoC is ruled to only affect class bonuses; no items (Badge of Valor); Feat (Song of Heart); or spell (Inspirational Boost) so overall, if my math is right 3*2+3 = 9

ACFs used: Bardic Knack PHBII; Healing Hymn CC; Spellbreacker Song CM
Do i get Fascinate back due to Virtuoso??

For Spells is am not sure which to take and would be glad for help here

Need to have items so far:
Held Portable Hole 20000 gp
Held Handy Haversack 2000 gp -> do not use with Portable hole
Held M187 Survival pouch 5/day create various useful survival items 3,300
Held Horn of resilience — (held) (9th) 2/day allies gain DR 5/—, or increase effect of major aura by 1, or grant 50 temporary hp 5,000 gp
Held BANNER OF THE STORM’S EYE Price (Item Level): (14th) MIC 151 15,000 gp
1h Melee Crystal Echoblade MIC: The crystal echoblade is a +1 longsword 4,310 MIC49 + Greater Dispelling (3/d) +1; M43 Sizing +5000 Sudden Stunning DMG II +2000
Throat Badge of valor (5th) 3/day allies gain +2 on saves against charm/fear, or increase inspire courage bonus by 1 1,200 gp
Waist M73 Belt of battle +2 on initiative; 3 charges/day, perform extra actions 12,000
Arms M147 Wand bracelet Store and retrieve up to four items of no more than 3 lb. each 12,000
Torso Vest of Legends Item (Dungeon Master's Guide II 272) +5 Diplo and Perform +5 Bardic Music (all) 16,000G
Face M141 Third eye clarity 1/day negates confused, dazed, fascinated, or stunned condition 3,000
Shoulder Cloak of Charisma +6 +6 enhancement to Cha 36,000

Thanks for assistance

[bean illus]

Well for one; i would boost UMD to the max. UMD is one of the most utilitarian tools in the game. For two, i would trim craft and profession (unless there is some reason i don't see) and boost perception (spot/listen).

Also, i don't know how Factotum is overpowered, unless you overuse Font of Inspiration (maybe), but if Wizard is allowed, then i can't see Facto as overpowered.

[AvatarVecna]

Making a caster Bard, huh? Nice. You're build looks pretty solid, although there's definitely room for a touch of cheese.

If your DM isn't going to make a book-shaped dent in your head for using early entry, take Versatile Caster/Heighten Spell/Enlarge Spell as your Human/1st lvl/3rd lvl feats, and you can cast a 3rd lvl version of a 2nd lvl spell in a 3rd lvl spell slot...with only 4 Bard levels. At this point, take all 5 levels of War Weaver.

Now, if your DM was willing to allow early entry, you're a Bard 4/War Weaver 5, and you need one more level before you start taking Sublime Chord levels (since you only need skills at this point to qualify for it); if you're willing to add a bit more cheese to this build, take the Uncanny Trickster PrC from Complete Scoundrel. The first level doesn't do a whole lot for you, unfortunately, but we'll get to why it's awesome in a minute. So, a few levels later, you're a Bard 4/War Weaver 5/Uncanny Scoundrel 1/Sublime Chord 1; now you take the next two levels of Uncanny Scoundrel. Now, levels 2 and 3 of that PrC let you basically copy-paste another classes class feature progression into Uncanny Trickster; for this ability, you'll be copying War Weaver, so Uncanny Scoundrel levels 2 and 3 will for the most part act as if they were War Weaver 6 and 7. This means that not only do you get War Weaver's casting progression (which keeps your Sublime Chord casting high), you also count as a War Weaver 7 for the purposes of Eldritch Tapestry...you know, the ability that lets you target the whole party with single target buff spells up to a spell level equal to your War Weaver level?

At this point, your have a Bard 4/War Weaver 5/Uncanny Trickster 1/Sublime Chord 1/Uncanny Trickster +2; you have BAB +9.5, Fort +4.33, Ref +7.5, and Will +8 (assuming you're using fractional calculation); you cast as a Bard 8 and as a Sublime Chord 3. From this point out, take classes that upgrade your casting at every level and you'll be golden. For simplicities sake, I recommend a Virtuoso dip, a Mindbender dip, and then straight Archmage.

Also, I forgot to mention, but at some point after you gain 3rd lvl spell slots from your Bard/War Weaver levels, you'll want to trade away Heighten Spell via the retraining rules from PHB2, since the only things it's really doing for you is letting you enter that PrC early. Ultimately, this build trades a level of Bard casting for an additional 2 levels of Eldritch Tapestry, which means applying 6th and 7th lvl buffs to your party. If that's worth it to you, go for it, but I definitely have to admit that it complicates things perhaps more than they need to be (and of course, some DMs will likely have a cheese tolerance, and parts of this could very well pass that limit).

[Hiro Quester]

Looks like a good plan to me.

If you are taking DFI, try to get a Pyroclastic dragon as your ancestor (damage is half fire, half sonic).

the only things I would add is a source of AC (heck out the 4th level spell Sirine's Grace; buffs Cha and DEX, and adds your CHA bonus as a deflection bonus to AC).

Also, as far as group buffing goes, I always found Virtuoso a bit Meh. If Dragon is allowed, check out the Heartfire Fanner from Dragon 314.

A 5 level PrC that progresses all your bardic musics and SC casting, but adds new bardic music that grant other party members temporary use of their choice of fighter bonus feats (Fighting invisibles? Everyone gets blindfight!). At HFF3 you can grant 2 fighter bonus feats, including one as a prerequisite for the other. (Got a free hand? Take TWF and ITWF for the next ten rounds). And at HFF 5 you can grant use of 3 bonus feats.

I played A bard/SC/HFF and the song that grants bonus feats was most requested by my party, especially by our ranger and rogue, who always benefit from more feats to make their attacks even more effective.

Another reason to consider HFF, is that you get standard bardic musics as long as you meet the perform requirements. Without that you won't get Inspire Greatness (bards get that at Bard 9, and you are dropping bard before that). You need IG to make use of the (awesome) +50 temp HP benefit of that horn of resilience.

If you have a little spare gold, consider also the third piece of the Regalia of the Hero (you already have the badge and horn). The helm is okay, but the collection benefits of having all three items are awesome (grant the damage dealer a free move action, so he can effectively pounce).

Also consider Lingering Song feat. Your echoblade will continue a song for you, but will switch the round after you switch. With lingering song, you sing one song in round 1 and it lasts for ten rounds, to round 11. Round two you switch to another song and it also lasts until round 12. Round three you can have three bardic music effects running lasting until rounds 11, 12, and 13.

And if you want to throw in some debuffing of enemies, you have to consider Doomspeak. Your insults make the enemy so mad that they are -10 on all saves, attacks, skill checks until your next turn. (Very fun to play, and super effective to enable your party wizard (or you) to polymorph that mature red dragon into a lizard.)

Lastly, consider learning the spell Harmonize, from Races of Stone. Enables you to begin bardic music as a swift action. So in the crucial first round you can begin a bardic music (swift) and release your weave (move) and cast a spell (std).

[Thaneus]

Well for one; i would boost UMD to the max. UMD is one of the most utilitarian tools in the game. For two, i would trim craft and profession (unless there is some reason i don't see) and boost perception (spot/listen).

Also, i don't know how Factotum is overpowered, unless you overuse Font of Inspiration (maybe), but if Wizard is allowed, then i can't see Facto as overpowered.

Well i have UMD 13 + 11 from Cha that is 24 already so basically i can use everything without even trying except alignment which needs UMD 30, which i don't care right now. Maybe when i hit level 17 and have points to spare or I just plain buy a +5 UMD competence bonus and i am set. I see no reason to Improve here since my Cha will rise further.

Craft and Profession are needed for the Prc (Warweaver needs craft weaving 6 and enlarge spell + spellcasting 3); Sublime Chord needs Perform, Listen, Knowledge Arcane each 13; Profession Astrologer, Spellcraft 6; so no I need it

My GM is a bit "traumatized" because i presented him a Wiz5+incantatrix10+Metaphysical Spellshaper5 which, well, was... i guess i don't need to explain
Same with Factotum, i made such an utility monster which pulled a 240 Dmg attack per attack on level 14 on a +24 Hit and could come out on any situation anytime except some level 9 spells. That is why i am on the buffer side now, no solo ME more fun for all.

For AvatarVecna:
To much cheese, he will fry me again for even trying, not that i thought about that already, i guess i should have mention that

[AvatarVecna]

For AvatarVecna:
To much cheese, he will fry me again for even trying, not that i thought about that already, i guess i should have mention that

That's fair. Just figured I should mention it, just in case.

[Heliomance]

For simplicities sake, I recommend a Virtuoso dip, a Mindbender dip, and then straight Archmage.


Dipping Virtuoso and Mindbender means dropping two caster levels. Don't do that.

[AvatarVecna]

Dipping Virtuoso and Mindbender means dropping two caster levels. Don't do that.

Had to look it up to make sure I was remembering correctly; as it happens, Virtuoso doesn't grant spellcasting at that first level, so yeah that was a bad suggestion. But Mindbender gives casting progression at lvl 1, so I'm not sure where you're seeing 2 drops in CL from that.

[Heliomance]

Had to look it up to make sure I was remembering correctly; as it happens, Virtuoso doesn't grant spellcasting at that first level, so yeah that was a bad suggestion. But Mindbender gives casting progression at lvl 1, so I'm not sure where you're seeing 2 drops in CL from that.

You're right, it does. I could have sworn it dropped a level at first, I thought Mindsight was considered one of the very few things worth dropping a caster level for in some circumstances.

[AvatarVecna]

You're right, it does. I could have sworn it dropped a level at first, I thought Mindsight was considered one of the very few things worth dropping a caster level for in some circumstances.

To be fair, it's a half-caster, which is why nobody takes more than 1 level. It's a good level, though (although not a Good level *rimshot* [/alignmentjoke]).

[Fouredged Sword]

Well for less cheesy advice - You are not progressing bardic singing so I suggest you trade fascinate for Healing Hymn to allow you to superbuff your healing spells. Cure light wounds healing the whole party 1d8+28 hp as a level 1 spell is really nice. Being able to spend a move action to release 5 of them (I don't remember the cap exactly, I think it's 5 spells in your tapestry) as an emergency heal for 5d8+140hp healing to all party members is NICE.

I do recommend going sublime chord as your 11-20th levels as it's a really good casting class. An alternative is to go into Chameleon and get access to every spell in the game 6th level and lower.

[Hiro Quester]

I do recommend going sublime chord as your 11-20th levels as it's a really good casting class. An alternative is to go into Chameleon and get access to every spell in the game 6th level and lower.

Only keep SC for one or two levels.

Because it starts its own spell progression from level 11 onwards, you can afford one or even two non-spellcasting levels before level 11), and still get 9th level spell awesomeness. But you do lose out on some extra 3rd and 4th level spells that can be a very very useful.

the SC second level bardic music that increases caster level is awesome. But after that, run away. Take (like more War Weaver) a class that progresses casting and something else good.

In your situation Bard 9 (to Get Inspire Greatness)/War Weaver 1(the lost CL doesn't matter if you take it here)/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver 2-5/ Something Else 4.
(Again, I suggest you consider HeartFire Fanner as the "something else" for some awesome buff, casting, and bardic music progression/synergy.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The master fiddle is a UMD-able item from Savage Species that (all by itself) grants all of the bardic music of an 11th level bard.

Just so you don't waste more bard levels than you must, just for bardic music.

[bean illus]

Well i have UMD 13 + 11 from Cha that is 24 already so basically i can use everything without even trying except alignment which needs UMD 30, which i don't care right now. Maybe when i hit level 17 and have points to spare or I just plain buy a +5 UMD competence bonus and i am set. I see no reason to Improve here since my Cha will rise further.

Craft and Profession are needed for the Prc (Warweaver needs craft weaving 6 and enlarge spell + spellcasting 3); Sublime Chord needs Perform, Listen, Knowledge Arcane each 13; Profession Astrologer, Spellcraft 6; so no I need it

My GM is a bit "traumatized" because i presented him a Wiz5+incantatrix10+Metaphysical Spellshaper5 which, well, was... i guess i don't need to explain
Same with Factotum, i made such an utility monster which pulled a 240 Dmg attack per attack on level 14 on a +24 Hit and could come out on any situation anytime except some level 9 spells. That is why i am on the buffer side now, no solo ME more fun for all.

For AvatarVecna:
To much cheese, he will fry me again for even trying, not that i thought about that already, i guess i should have mention that

Nice. I knew when i wrote that that you would explain it to me.

I also figured out half way through your response why you were switching to buffer. Smart. Maybe he won't see it coming, and the party will love you for it.

[Hiro Quester]

The master fiddle is a UMD-able item from Savage Species that (all by itself) grants all of the bardic music of an 11th level bard.

Just so you don't waste more bard levels than you must, just for bardic music.

That may not work here. The master violin is sized for a tiny creature. And it's only when played by a grig that it replaces grig music abilities with those of a 9th level bard. (SS p. 58)

You could UMD (DC25) emulating being a grig. But I doubt your DM would agree that a medium sized silverbrow human could skillfully play a tiny-sized fiddle.


Edit: plus you may need to already have grig music abilities, for them to be replaced with bardic music.

Plus playing a fiddle requires equipment and two hands, while singing a song can be done with your sword in one hand, charging into battle.

And you could not use the fiddle to play inspire greatness while also using the horn of resilience to play inspire greatness for those 50 extra temporary HPs.

[AvatarVecna]

That may not work here. The master violin is sized for a tiny creature. And it's only when played by a grig that it replaces grig music abilities with those of a 9th level bard. (SS p. 58)

You could UMD (DC25) emulating being a grig. But I doubt your DM would agree that a medium sized silverbrow human could skillfully play a tiny-sized fiddle.


Edit: plus you may need to already have grig music abilities, for them to be replaced with bardic music.

Plus playing a fiddle requires equipment and two hands, while singing a song can be done with your sword in one hand, charging into battle.

And you could not use the fiddle to play inspire greatness while also using the horn of resilience to play inspire greatness for those 50 extra temporary HPs.

It's easier than it seems. (https://media.giphy.com/media/10hfegXGKVRVNm/giphy.gif)

[Hiro Quester]

It's easier than it seems. (https://media.giphy.com/media/10hfegXGKVRVNm/giphy.gif)

That's funny. :smallbiggrin:

[Thaneus]

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Early entry:
I also though about this, but retraining is, unfortunately, not allowed, except with a wish or really good role-play.
Since i don't lose anything when going Bard 7 I stuck with this solution to reduce dead feats

Heartfire Fanner:
Very strong class indeed for buffing. I don't want to imagine what my mates would do with this stuff.
From my understanding... would it open up something like Sorcerer 5 HFF 1 WW 4 SC 2 WW 1 HFF 4... but getting all those feats and skills will be a very though challenge.

Master Fiddle:
adding sizing (+5000gp) to it would fix that size issue i suppose? Or i need to turn to Mr. Caps and lose 10 points Cha ;)