Pathfinder standard action attacks

[MeeposFire]

One of the bigger problems I have in a 3e style game is that I like to play a weapon user but as we all know anytime you get stuck using a standard action you lose a LOT of your offensive power when you play a game based on the 3e engine such as PF. Now in a 3e game I know a few tricks around that but in PF I am not as knowledgeable and I know in a game I might decide to join they do not take 3e stuff so I am down to PF only and only in paizo proudects (no 3rd party). IN particular for me I would like to play a fighter (please don't try to force me out of that as this is overall a casual game, I like the fighter, and I just want to fix this glaring hole) so what can I use to to fix the problem of lacking a decent standard acion attack?

I know about the mobile fighter but it gives up the weapon/armor abilities that I can use to pick up and further the ability I really would want would take a really long time to acquire so not the best though it at least tries.

vital strike line. I kind of see this as a joke. If they were all one feat that increased in effectiveness based on your character level then I would grumble slightly but would be ok with it. If it multiplied various other points of damage and not just the weapon dice that would also help. But as is with 3 feats to spend on it that is far too expensive for far too small a bonus.


A separate option is if I can find a way to move as a swift action often enough that it can cover me through the day then that would certainly do the trick as well. There were a few of those in 3e so they might have done it in PF too. I don't tend to like daily abilities so much (unless you get a TON of uses) but if they are per encounter or similar that would be better.

So any ideas?

[CharonsHelper]

You can just use the Pathfinder Unchained alternate action system. It pretty much fixes that issue entirely.

[MeeposFire]

You can just use the Pathfinder Unchained alternate action system. It pretty much fixes that issue entirely.

I am not sure I like how that system looks like it works but even if I did I am not the DM and thus I cannot use that system since I do not get to make the choice to make such a global change in the combat rules as that would make a change for everybody playing.

I appreciate the idea though.

[CharonsHelper]

I am not sure I like how that system looks like it works but even if I did I am not the DM and thus I cannot use that system since I do not get to make the choice to make such a global change in the combat rules as that would make a change for everybody playing.

I appreciate the idea though.

Well then, your options are more limited. There used to be the Quick Runner Shirt which let you move as a swift action 1/day, but they nerfed it so that it ends your turn.

You could just be an archer so that you don't have to move at all. Fighters are probably one of the 3-4 best archers in the game (along with Rangers & Zen Archer Monks).

I agree with you that Mobile Fighter isn't very good. It basically gets a variation on pounce, but it loses all of the best parts of the Fighter class.

Barbarians can get pounce, and there is a feat which lets you get pounce with unarmed attacks (Pummeling Charge), and Unchained Monks basically get pounce, but you didn't want to play those.

You could also play a mounted character. It doesn't give you pounce, but that single attack can become so vicious that it's arguably better than pounce. Fighters don't get a mount as a class feature, and normal ones aren't really viable past the first 5-6 levels (heavy horse is fine until then) you could get creative and play a small race, riding a medium party member into battle. :P (They gain the advantage of you boosting their defenses with Mounted Combat.)

[Bucky]

If Path of War is allowed you can use maneuvers for your standard action attacks. You can even, for example, pick up a 1/encounter standard action double shield bash as a Fighter bonus feat. Or you could use one of the PoW classes and use maneuvers as your primary offense.

[MeeposFire]

If Path of War is allowed you can use maneuvers for your standard action attacks. You can even, for example, pick up a 1/encounter standard action double shield bash as a Fighter bonus feat. Or you could use one of the PoW classes and use maneuvers as your primary offense.

Sadly I believe that is 3rd party so that option would be out.

[MeeposFire]

Well then, your options are more limited. There used to be the Quick Runner Shirt which let you move as a swift action 1/day, but they nerfed it so that it ends your turn.

You could just be an archer so that you don't have to move at all. Fighters are probably one of the 3-4 best archers in the game (along with Rangers & Zen Archer Monks).

I agree with you that Mobile Fighter isn't very good. It basically gets a variation on pounce, but it loses all of the best parts of the Fighter class.

Barbarians can get pounce, and there is a feat which lets you get pounce with unarmed attacks (Pummeling Charge), and Unchained Monks basically get pounce, but you didn't want to play those.

You could also play a mounted character. It doesn't give you pounce, but that single attack can become so vicious that it's arguably better than pounce. Fighters don't get a mount as a class feature, and normal ones aren't really viable past the first 5-6 levels (heavy horse is fine until then) you could get creative and play a small race, riding a medium party member into battle. :P (They gain the advantage of you boosting their defenses with Mounted Combat.)

Yea that nerf to the shirt hurts though to be honest 1/day would probably not cut it anyway.

I was wanting to see if I could do melee but you are right archery does make it easier. Oddly archery is one of those styles that gets a buff and a nerf at the same time in PF. In PF manyshot buffs full attacks which means the archers full attack have an additional option for even more damage (not sure that particular kind of bonus is needed but it is a buff to a full attack) but in 3e manyshot was a way to get near full attack damage using a standard action (I kind of miss old many shot in that regard since it boosts you in a situation that you may get into part of the time that will hurt you greatly if you do get into it).

I kind of figured that my options in this regard were limited but I was hoping my relative lack of knowledge meant that I may have missed something. It seems PF on the whole really doubles down on boosting full attacks and leaving you outside of a full attack fairly high and dry (maybe they thought vital strike was so good to cover it even though it is nowhere near that good?).

[Elder_Basilisk]

Here are a few thoughts:

0. Avenger Vigilante talent: Mad Rush. Make a full attack with a charge in return for -4 AC in addition to the usual -2. It takes 12 levels, but it's a pretty good ability

1. Furious Focus. Power Attack damage without the attack penalty on your first attack each round. If you only get one attack, that's free damage. It's not quite what you're looking for but you can do it for your whole career and you can add it onto nearly every strategy here.

2. Improved Trip--greater trip line plus vicious stomp. Trip the foe and get two AoOs. With Felling Smash, you can potentially hit the enemy, make an opportunity attack

3. Vigilante with the Vital Punishment Talent. Apply Vital Strike (and greater vital strike etc if you take them) to one AoO per round. If you find a way to reliably generate AoOs on your turn, (such as Felling Smash), that will potentially let you make two vital strikes per round.

4. Vital strike optimization. I think standard tactics include wielding an oversized bastard sword with the impact enhancement and being enlarged whenever possible. An extra 2d8 damage is starting to get worthwhile and when you push the vital strike bonus damage to 4d8, it's starting to get good.

5. Deadly Stroke. If you have some intimidate and/or fear synergy going in your party, this is what Vital Strike wishes it were. True double damage and one point of con bleed. You need to get a flatfooted foe but shatter defenses (which is on the prerequisite list), then there are all sorts of ways to make foes shaken (which with shatter defenses makes them flatfooted) and let you get the attack off.

6. It's not quite standard actions but you can combo fear/intimidate shenanigans with the hurtful feat to get a swift action attack each round. If you have feats coming out your ears (because you are a vigilante, a fighter, or a carefully constructed cavalier multiclass), you can combine this with Deadly Stroke.

7. Weapon Trick: Two weapons lets you make one attack with each weapon as a standard action but the prereqs are ridiculous.

8. If weapon wielder does not mean "no magic" to you then you open up quite a few options based on either the dimensional agility line of feats or the bladed dash spell.
8.A. Three feats into the Dimensional Agility chain, Dimensional Dervish lets you cast Dimension Door or Abundant Step as a swift action during a full attack action.
-This can be good for any class that can dimension door, bards, magus, monks (including weapon wielding monks), eldritch knights, and horizon walkers can take advantage of it.
-Even only one step into the chain, an eldritch Knight can use a quickened dimension door and then full attack or full attack then quickened dimension door. (The ability starts at level 11 when a standard entry Eldritch Knight gets 5th level spells (with magical lineage for reduced metamagic on dimension door).
8.B. Bladed Dash.
-Magus is the early entry (and easiest) way to make this into a mobile full attack. As soon as you have 2nd level spells (4th level), you can spell combat, cast bladed dash, move and attack as a part of the spell then finish your full attack from the new position.
-A high level bard can do something similar with a quickened bladed dash

9. On the "magic" side of things, a quickened thunderstomp would also let a character with greater trip trigger an AoO at will for move+2 attacks combo.

10. Stalker vigilantes have a couple options for this: the Leave an Opening talent generates an AoO at the start of your next round and the Up Close and Personal talent lets you acrobatics through an opponents square then use a swift action to make an attack on the enemy who is denied their dex bonus. (It also combines with Vital Punishment to let you move through the opponent's square, make a swift action attack, make your normal attack (with vital strike for what it's worth) and then make an AoO at the start of your next turn that also gets vital strike bonuses.

11. The Two Handed Fighter archetype has a number of abilities that feed into this kind of strategy: Overhand Chop gives you double your strength bonus rather than 1.5x when you make a standard action attack or charge. (Which would stack with Vital Strike). At 11th level, you get a special standard action attack that applies a trip or bullrush (your choice) to the target. (Doesn't combine with Vital Strike, but does combine with all the trip shenanigans). And at 19th level, you get an ability to make a special standard action attack at -5 to hit that is an automatic critical threat.

12. Scout archetype rogues can sneak attack when they charge (4) move at least 10 feet and make a standard action attack(lvl 8). If you really felt like it, I suppose you could combine that with Avenger Vigilante to get sneak attack on every attack after a mad rush.

13. It's fairly well known and limited but Spirited Charge and the various cavalier charge abilities also make your character deal lots of damage after moving.

14. Magus or any other character with spellstrike can also snag a bonus attack by casting a quickened touch attack spell.

You can do a lot of mix and match with these abilities before you even get to multiclassing. For example, you could make a two-handed fighter, use an oversized bastard sword, and take both the Greater Trip line of feats and Furious Focus along with Vital Strike. Get Impact on the Bastard Sword and a friendly wizard to enlarge you and you're looking at a Standard Action vital strike attack that would do 8d8+2x Strength damage. If you had Felling Smash and Greater Trip, you could then make an AoO on a successful trip.

Or as another example, you could give your Avenger Vigilante Mad rush, Vital Punishment, Felling Smash, and Greater Trip and charge, make a full attack, give up your power attack damage for trip attempts and take an AoO with vital strike bonus damage on the trip.

Or you could run the oversized weapon and trip shenanigans on an eldritch knight, using lead blades and enlarge person (with or without Vital Strike) until you can get an impact weapon and then start up with quickened thunderstomp at level 9 and move on to dimension door+Dimensional Dervish at level 11 or so.

Or you could run an intimidating fighter who moves up and uses deadly stroke, then after using some ability (typically blade of mercy trait to do nonlethal damage with the enforcer feat to get a free intimidate check but Cornugon Smash is another popular way to get free action intimidate checks on a hit) to intimidate the target, use hurtful for a swift action attack.

Or you could have a magus with Dimensional Dervish, start out with spell combat to cast greater bladed dash and attack everyone you pass by, then finish your full attack and cast dimension door as a swift action to escape.

EDIT: Missed the "Fighter" bit the first time through. Here are a couple potential fighter builds:

Two Handed Fighter Archetype. Wields an oversized bastard sword and sucks up the -2 penalty. Felling Smash is a little redundant in the build because Two Handed Fighters get a similar ability at level 11, but it does let you Vital Strike on the move+attack and using Vital Strike is the reason you're using an oversized bastard sword. If that seems inefficient to you, you could multiclass out of fighter after level 6 or 8. Avenger Vigilante is essentially fighter plus and would let you take Vital Punishment to apply Vital Strike to the AoO as well.
Level 1: Power Attack, Weapon Proficiency, Furious Focus; 2. Weapon Focus; 3. Combat Expertise ; 4. Weapon Specialization; 5. Improved Trip; 6. Vital Strike; 7. Greater Trip ; 8. Greater Weapon Focus; 9. Improved Critical; 11. Felling Smash
By level 11, you can move and make a standard action attack with vital strike for 6d8+2x Str+Power Attack+miscellaneous bonuses and roll a trip maneuver if you hit and then take an AoO if you succeed in the trip.

Another example: Fighter:
1. Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus, Power Attack; 2. Combat Reflexes or Intimidating Prowess or Skill Focus: Intimidate; 3. Improved Initiative; 4. Weapon Specialization; 5. Hurtful ; 6. Shatter Defenses; 7. Cornugon Smash 8. Greater Weapon Focus; 9. Deadly Stroke
By level 9, if you win initiative, you can move and attack a flatfooted opponent for double damage plus con bleed, intimidate them (if you power attacked) thanks to Cornugon Smash, then make a swift action attack (hurtful) which will leave the opponent flatfooted until the end of your next turn when you can do it all again and still have a move action left. Combat Reflexes is if you want to use a reach weapon. Deadly stroke is primarily an opening round gambit but you can use it on a move+attack whenever your party lands a stun on an opponent or if you land an attack on a shaken foe which is a distinct possibility if you have reach and either you open with Dazzling Display (the intimidate comes from dazzling display and the attack from reach) or you have party members that use fear effects (most of which leave a foe shaken for 1 round even on a successful save; again, the attack to trigger Shatter Defenses comes from reach) and/or generate AoOs (for example, a trip-monkey ally).

[MeeposFire]

Here are a few thoughts:

0. Avenger Vigilante talent: Mad Rush. Make a full attack with a charge in return for -4 AC in addition to the usual -2. It takes 12 levels, but it's a pretty good ability

1. Furious Focus. Power Attack damage without the attack penalty on your first attack each round. If you only get one attack, that's free damage. It's not quite what you're looking for but you can do it for your whole career and you can add it onto nearly every strategy here.

2. Improved Trip--greater trip line plus vicious stomp. Trip the foe and get two AoOs. With Felling Smash, you can potentially hit the enemy, make an opportunity attack

3. Vigilante with the Vital Punishment Talent. Apply Vital Strike (and greater vital strike etc if you take them) to one AoO per round. If you find a way to reliably generate AoOs on your turn, (such as Felling Smash), that will potentially let you make two vital strikes per round.

4. Vital strike optimization. I think standard tactics include wielding an oversized bastard sword with the impact enhancement and being enlarged whenever possible. An extra 2d8 damage is starting to get worthwhile and when you push the vital strike bonus damage to 4d8, it's starting to get good.

5. Deadly Stroke. If you have some intimidate and/or fear synergy going in your party, this is what Vital Strike wishes it were. True double damage and one point of con bleed. You need to get a flatfooted foe but shatter defenses (which is on the prerequisite list), then there are all sorts of ways to make foes shaken (which with shatter defenses makes them flatfooted) and let you get the attack off.

6. It's not quite standard actions but you can combo fear/intimidate shenanigans with the hurtful feat to get a swift action attack each round. If you have feats coming out your ears (because you are a vigilante, a fighter, or a carefully constructed cavalier multiclass), you can combine this with Deadly Stroke.

7. Weapon Trick: Two weapons lets you make one attack with each weapon as a standard action but the prereqs are ridiculous.

8. If weapon wielder does not mean "no magic" to you then you open up quite a few options based on either the dimensional agility line of feats or the bladed dash spell.
8.A. Three feats into the Dimensional Agility chain, Dimensional Dervish lets you cast Dimension Door or Abundant Step as a swift action during a full attack action.
-This can be good for any class that can dimension door, bards, magus, monks (including weapon wielding monks), eldritch knights, and horizon walkers can take advantage of it.
-Even only one step into the chain, an eldritch Knight can use a quickened dimension door and then full attack or full attack then quickened dimension door. (The ability starts at level 11 when a standard entry Eldritch Knight gets 5th level spells (with magical lineage for reduced metamagic on dimension door).
8.B. Bladed Dash.
-Magus is the early entry (and easiest) way to make this into a mobile full attack. As soon as you have 2nd level spells (4th level), you can spell combat, cast bladed dash, move and attack as a part of the spell then finish your full attack from the new position.
-A high level bard can do something similar with a quickened bladed dash

9. On the "magic" side of things, a quickened thunderstomp would also let a character with greater trip trigger an AoO at will for move+2 attacks combo.

10. Stalker vigilantes have a couple options for this: the Leave an Opening talent generates an AoO at the start of your next round and the Up Close and Personal talent lets you acrobatics through an opponents square then use a swift action to make an attack on the enemy who is denied their dex bonus. (It also combines with Vital Punishment to let you move through the opponent's square, make a swift action attack, make your normal attack (with vital strike for what it's worth) and then make an AoO at the start of your next turn that also gets vital strike bonuses.

11. The Two Handed Fighter archetype has a number of abilities that feed into this kind of strategy: Overhand Chop gives you double your strength bonus rather than 1.5x when you make a standard action attack or charge. (Which would stack with Vital Strike). At 11th level, you get a special standard action attack that applies a trip or bullrush (your choice) to the target. (Doesn't combine with Vital Strike, but does combine with all the trip shenanigans). And at 19th level, you get an ability to make a special standard action attack at -5 to hit that is an automatic critical threat.

12. Scout archetype rogues can sneak attack when they charge (4) move at least 10 feet and make a standard action attack(lvl 8). If you really felt like it, I suppose you could combine that with Avenger Vigilante to get sneak attack on every attack after a mad rush.

13. It's fairly well known and limited but Spirited Charge and the various cavalier charge abilities also make your character deal lots of damage after moving.

14. Magus or any other character with spellstrike can also snag a bonus attack by casting a quickened touch attack spell.

You can do a lot of mix and match with these abilities before you even get to multiclassing. For example, you could make a two-handed fighter, use an oversized bastard sword, and take both the Greater Trip line of feats and Furious Focus along with Vital Strike. Get Impact on the Bastard Sword and a friendly wizard to enlarge you and you're looking at a Standard Action vital strike attack that would do 8d8+2x Strength damage. If you had Felling Smash and Greater Trip, you could then make an AoO on a successful trip.

Or as another example, you could give your Avenger Vigilante Mad rush, Vital Punishment, Felling Smash, and Greater Trip and charge, make a full attack, give up your power attack damage for trip attempts and take an AoO with vital strike bonus damage on the trip.

Or you could run the oversized weapon and trip shenanigans on an eldritch knight, using lead blades and enlarge person (with or without Vital Strike) until you can get an impact weapon and then start up with quickened thunderstomp at level 9 and move on to dimension door+Dimensional Dervish at level 11 or so.

Or you could run an intimidating fighter who moves up and uses deadly stroke, then after using some ability (typically blade of mercy trait to do nonlethal damage with the enforcer feat to get a free intimidate check but Cornugon Smash is another popular way to get free action intimidate checks on a hit) to intimidate the target, use hurtful for a swift action attack.

Or you could have a magus with Dimensional Dervish, start out with spell combat to cast greater bladed dash and attack everyone you pass by, then finish your full attack and cast dimension door as a swift action to escape.

EDIT: Missed the "Fighter" bit the first time through. Here are a couple potential fighter builds:

Two Handed Fighter Archetype. Wields an oversized bastard sword and sucks up the -2 penalty. Felling Smash is a little redundant in the build because Two Handed Fighters get a similar ability at level 11, but it does let you Vital Strike on the move+attack and using Vital Strike is the reason you're using an oversized bastard sword. If that seems inefficient to you, you could multiclass out of fighter after level 6 or 8. Avenger Vigilante is essentially fighter plus and would let you take Vital Punishment to apply Vital Strike to the AoO as well.
Level 1: Power Attack, Weapon Proficiency, Furious Focus; 2. Weapon Focus; 3. Combat Expertise ; 4. Weapon Specialization; 5. Improved Trip; 6. Vital Strike; 7. Greater Trip ; 8. Greater Weapon Focus; 9. Improved Critical; 11. Felling Smash
By level 11, you can move and make a standard action attack with vital strike for 6d8+2x Str+Power Attack+miscellaneous bonuses and roll a trip maneuver if you hit and then take an AoO if you succeed in the trip.

Another example: Fighter:
1. Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus, Power Attack; 2. Combat Reflexes or Intimidating Prowess or Skill Focus: Intimidate; 3. Improved Initiative; 4. Weapon Specialization; 5. Hurtful ; 6. Shatter Defenses; 7. Cornugon Smash 8. Greater Weapon Focus; 9. Deadly Stroke
By level 9, if you win initiative, you can move and attack a flatfooted opponent for double damage plus con bleed, intimidate them (if you power attacked) thanks to Cornugon Smash, then make a swift action attack (hurtful) which will leave the opponent flatfooted until the end of your next turn when you can do it all again and still have a move action left. Combat Reflexes is if you want to use a reach weapon. Deadly stroke is primarily an opening round gambit but you can use it on a move+attack whenever your party lands a stun on an opponent or if you land an attack on a shaken foe which is a distinct possibility if you have reach and either you open with Dazzling Display (the intimidate comes from dazzling display and the attack from reach) or you have party members that use fear effects (most of which leave a foe shaken for 1 round even on a successful save; again, the attack to trigger Shatter Defenses comes from reach) and/or generate AoOs (for example, a trip-monkey ally).

Not going magic on principle though I do like that bladed dash spell and I did not know about it.

The tripping option looks like the best bet though I would need to invest to make it work often and it does have limitations (I think size still restricts trips just like it did in 3e right?). I recall chain tripping was effective in 3e until later in teh game when you realize that many creatures could just ignore the effect. Is that not really true in PF or am I going to have to heavily invest in something that by the time I get it has become partially useless due to many critters being functionally useless due to size and other limitations?

Same thing with fear based abilities. Is fear immunity no longer common because in 3e it really is and having something that takes a while to come online means I really need it to be good late game especially since that is when you really need a trick to actually work. Early game you can go far with just something like power attack late game is when you need a real trick.

Size boosting vital strike makes sense though that just like many of these others I am forcing a different character to buff me not to make me better so much as making it useful at all. I am not sure I like that.

Lots to think of there some of them are certainly are worth looking into. I think that the trip line has a lot of worth but only if I can make tripping effective often and not be made worthless easily. Same thing with the fear effects I am going to have to check to see how often it can be kept effective. If fear immunity is rare then it looks a lot better. Vital strike being three feats just really yanks my chain so I doubt I will actually go that route specifically unless there are some really cool attack action shenanigans you can pool and just getting .5x more str mod to an attack isn't enough (also another weird note in 3e spring attack and its line was used with an attack action but PF it is not which means that 3e sneak attack actually has more optimization potential with vital strike where we could get one vital strike and up to two more attacks against one target in 3e but only one in PF weird huh).

EDIT: Some more stuff I will have to check those out later.

[CharonsHelper]

Yea that nerf to the shirt hurts though to be honest 1/day would probably not cut it anyway.

Actually - one trick people used to do was have 3-4 extra shirts in their backpack - putting on a new one each encounter. (Which was also nerfed - and likely the main reason for the nerf.)


I was wanting to see if I could do melee but you are right archery does make it easier. Oddly archery is one of those styles that gets a buff and a nerf at the same time in PF. In PF manyshot buffs full attacks which means the archers full attack have an additional option for even more damage (not sure that particular kind of bonus is needed but it is a buff to a full attack) but in 3e manyshot was a way to get near full attack damage using a standard action (I kind of miss old many shot in that regard since it boosts you in a situation that you may get into part of the time that will hurt you greatly if you do get into it).

I'll just tell you - in Pathfinder archery is generally considered the most powerful combat style because they can full attack every turn, and at level 6 (between Many Shot & Rapid Shot) you can shoot 4 arrows each turn (without Haste) - and with Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training the Fighter gets a ton of static damage on each of those 4 arrows - especially once you can afford Gloves of Dueling. Eventually you can fire in melee at no penalty and threaten out to 10ft. (Very feat intensive - but it gets kinda crazy.)


I kind of figured that my options in this regard were limited but I was hoping my relative lack of knowledge meant that I may have missed something. It seems PF on the whole really doubles down on boosting full attacks and leaving you outside of a full attack fairly high and dry (maybe they thought vital strike was so good to cover it even though it is nowhere near that good?).

I don't think that was intentional, so much as they removed the options which were must-haves - which included ways to get around such issues. That, and at the time Pathfinder was released, one of its biggest selling points was 3.5 compatibility, so they were limited on their core system changes. That was the entire point of the Unchained book - the idea of making core system changes now that they were their own system rather than still being chained to 3.x.


Of note: tripping has the same issues of scaling as in 3.5, plus it doesn't knock flyers out of the air anymore - making it more limited. (without specific feats) Still effective, but it shouldn't be your build's focus unless you know the GM is going to focus upon humanoid foes.

[MeeposFire]

Yea I might just have to cut my losses and just go archery. That will probably be for the best. Hitting them with deadly aim, snapshot line, and all the other feats should work out ok. I will probably wear a buckler and spiked gauntlets too that way I have a back up melee weapon I do not need to draw and so I threaten at all times.

Is there an easy way to get an arcane spell to power arcane strike without multiclassing out of fighter? .

[Bucky]

I suggest looking at Coordinated Charge. It allows you to charge during an ally's turn, meaning that you can full attack afterwards if you stacked your initiative correctly.