Rogue/Trickery Cleric

[AmayaElls]

I love the feel of the trickery cleric and was looking at making one. Setting it up I realised my character idea suited the multiclass option of Rogue/Trickery cleric so I wanted some opinions.

Particularly on:

How many levels of rogue should I take? (I was thinking 7 so I still get lvl 7 spells)
When should I take the lvls? (starting at 1)


EDIT My character is a Variant human rogue currently with Resilient (Wisdom) feat and point buy stats are currently 10, 16, 12, 8, 17, 11. I do have time to change it if someone convinces me this is a bad start, but I like it at the moment.

Note: I am not actually looking to super optimise, just trying to figure out how not to shoot myself in the foot while multiclassing. I am in a pretty big group with broad coverage (paladin, moon druid and bard to cover my healing deficiencies) and being a little behind at points won't really hurt.

[Specter]

Hell yeah Trickery!

Depends on what you want from Rogue. If I were building it, I'd be content with Expertise, some Sneak and archetype (I'd goArcane Trickster because you know, TRICKERYYYY).

So I'd take 5 levels. Uncanny Dodge is a great reaction, and if you're too worried about losing Evasion you can always grab Absorb Elements from AT. Start Cleric (WIS save), then Rogue 1, then Cleric 5, then Rogue 5, then Cleric all the way.

[AmayaElls]

I guess from rogue, it's mostly background feel (she is a cleric of Mask) but I was more realising I actually didn't feel like I needed the highest lvls of cleric. I guess the question about 5 or 7 is worrying less about not gaining the features of rogue and more about whether I actually gain any features I want from cleric.

I plan for my character to be in the thick of battle, using invoke duplicity to gain advantage (and sneak attack). She also might be a frequent user of mirror image or blink. Her job is to deal a little extra damage or heal frontline party members as needed. Out of battle she is the main stealth in our group (bard might be able to help but we don't really have any other dex characters) and can support the others in stealth with Pass without a trace and her blessing. She is also meant to be a strong source of out of battle healing (probably the main time she will use her spells unless someone is critically wounded), the walking lie detector (expertised insight) and the main way to contact the criminal elements of a city.

[Tanarii]

IMO start rogue. 4 skills (and better skills to boot), Dex saves, and most important rapier proficiency so you're not stuck using daggers. Take 2 levels for Cunning Action. Then Cleric for Medium armor at level 3. After that it depends if you want SA or spell more, or balanced. So level 5 rogue, level 6 Cleric, or alternate odd levels of each (rogue 3, cleric 3, rogue 5, cleric 5).

Rogue and Cleric are two classes that don't absolutely need to hit level 5 or 6 right away. (Unlike Extra Attack or artillery casters). Trickery Clerics are specially fun because Breastplate & Shield & Rapier superior defense unless you're boosting Dex over Wis. if you take Medium Armor Mastery you can safely go up to Dex 16 and Half-Plate, and still Stealth.

If you're going Variant Human, you might want to consider starting Cleric and taking Medium Armor Mastery to start. That way you can start with Stealth from a background and still use Scalemail & Shield & Dex 14+ for AC 18. Limits you to daggers though.

[MrFahrenheit]

So what are you going for here, in a big picture sense? A caster that is stealthy, or a sneak who can buff? The 7/13 split you mentioned earlier is an odd choice - do you want to sneak attack, or cast spells with your action? A split like this one may not make sense for what you want.

A few suggested directions that may be more optimal:

Rogue 2 or 3 (thief )/cleric 17. You are primarily a cleric, but you have expertise in a couple skills, such as stealth and sleight of hand. Furthermore, you can hide in combat. If you went for that 3rd rogue level and went thief, you can also pickpocket enemies in combat ("oh, the enemy archer needed his arrows") among finding other uses for fast hands

Rogue (assassin) 11-15/cleric 5-9. The domain spells are done at cleric 9, and you get a poison smite one (cleric) level prior. Trade off is in not getting a free iteration of the resilience feat, which could be salamvaged by going only 5 in cleric.

Rogue (AT) 6/cleric 14. This is probably the most agreeable possibility you'll find, OP. Four expertises, access to seventh level spells and less reliance on rogue levels to do damage. Furthermore, you'd have the slots of a 16th level caster thanks to going AT.

[Tanarii]

Rogue (AT) 6/cleric 14. This is probably the most agreeable possibility you'll find, OP. Four expertises, access to seventh level spells and less reliance on rogue levels to do damage. Furthermore, you'd have the slots of a 16th level caster thanks to going AT.
Which is identical slots to a AT Rogue 7 / Cleric 13.

The trades off of R6 /Cl 14 vs R7 / Cl 14 is 1d8 damage + an ASI vs 1d6 damage + Evasion. And depending on when you take your levels, something becomes a capstone. Probably Cl13 or Cl14 would be last, so it's your capstone being level 7 spells, vs getting them one level earlier and capstone being the damage +ASI. Meanwhile R7 early on would be one level behind in spells, vs 1d6 damage + evasion.

[BW022]

I love the feel of the trickery cleric and was looking at making one. Setting it up I realised my character idea suited the multiclass option of Rogue/Trickery cleric so I wanted some opinions.

Particularly on:

How many levels of rogue should I take? (I was thinking 7 so I still get lvl 7 spells)
When should I take the lvls? (starting at 1)


EDIT My character is a Variant human rogue currently with Resilient (Wisdom) feat and point buy stats are currently 10, 16, 12, 8, 17, 11. I do have time to change it if someone convinces me this is a bad start, but I like it at the moment.
...


My general rule of thumb is that 5E multi-classing is most useful for small dips at low-levels to increase survival. At higher-levels these dips almost always aren't worth it. A wizard takes a level of fighter at 1st-level in order to gain armor and weapons for survival at lower levels. However, by 6th or so, these aren't needed as he has enough spells and never really uses the weapons or armor. The fighter level then becomes a drain.

Clerics and rogues have different tactics in combat. Clerics cast spells, rogues do sneak attack. You typically have to pick one of these as your primary focus. Imagine you are 10th-level... cleric/9 rogue/1, cleric/1 rogue/9, or cleric/5 rogue/5. You are facing CR 10 creatures. The first has options of laying down flame strikes, inspect plague, and raise dead. The second has 5d6 sneak attack. The last has only 3d6 sneak attack and pretty minor spells. Against multiple frost giants... the heavy split is typically not that great.

Now... cleric/1 rogue/1 is probably good at low levels. The sneak attack is good for a few levels and the cleric spells are good for a few levels. However, eventually one of them won't cut it as well as specializing.

My advice...

1. Pick one class as a primary. Take only one level of the other class at 2nd-level. Then go straight on the primary class. As tempting as it might be, every level in your non-primary just means delaying feats/stat increases, higher level abilities, spells or sneak attack, etc.

2. If rogue is your primary, you don't need anything more than a 14 wisdom. Put the rest in con and int. Most clerical and even trickery spells do not require saves. Take arcane trickster at 3rd-level rogue. The spell slots will stack. Use medium armor and shield and then switch to mage armor at cleric 1/rogue 3 when you get mage armor and bump your dexterity at rogue/4 or take a dexterity boast.

3. If cleric is your primary class, you don't need anything more than a 16 dexterity. Use medium armor and a shield and at cleric/4 rogue/1 take the medium armor mastery feat. This gives a good AC and by then you'll be relying less on dexterity attacks and more and more on spells.

4. I'd reconsider your race and/or feat. Inability to see in the dark is a problem for rogues. You aren't stealthy carrying a torch. Wood-elf is the obvious race (dexterity and a wisdom bonus, longbow, plus ability to hide in natural terrains). Half-elf might would be a second option (+1 to dexterity and wisdom, plus 2 to charisma, plus skills) for a more diplomatic schemer/trickster. Darkvision as a spell won't come until cleric/1 rogue/7 (arcane trickster). If you must go human... I would take the ritual caster feat and get find familiar. Use him/her for scouting. An owl is a good choice, you can see their its eyes, and you can use blessing of the trickster on him. Other ritual spells might also be helpful -- especially alarm, detect magic (magical traps), identify, comprehend languages, etc.

5. Take rogue as your first level. While you'd gain a rogue skill at cleric/1 taking rogue/1, 2+1 is still less than 4, and the cleric skills aren't as good.

6. For your cleric, at low-levels, prepare detect poison and disease and detect magic. Both can be ritual cast and are useful in finding certain types of traps.

[Citan]

I love the feel of the trickery cleric and was looking at making one. Setting it up I realised my character idea suited the multiclass option of Rogue/Trickery cleric so I wanted some opinions.

Particularly on:

How many levels of rogue should I take? (I was thinking 7 so I still get lvl 7 spells)
When should I take the lvls? (starting at 1)


EDIT My character is a Variant human rogue currently with Resilient (Wisdom) feat and point buy stats are currently 10, 16, 12, 8, 17, 11. I do have time to change it if someone convinces me this is a bad start, but I like it at the moment.

Note: I am not actually looking to super optimise, just trying to figure out how not to shoot myself in the foot while multiclassing. I am in a pretty big group with broad coverage (paladin, moon druid and bard to cover my healing deficiencies) and being a little behind at points won't really hurt.



I plan for my character to be in the thick of battle, using invoke duplicity to gain advantage (and sneak attack). She also might be a frequent user of mirror image or blink. Her job is to deal a little extra damage or heal frontline party members as needed. Out of battle she is the main stealth in our group (bard might be able to help but we don't really have any other dex characters) and can support the others in stealth with Pass without a trace and her blessing. She is also meant to be a strong source of out of battle healing (probably the main time she will use her spells unless someone is critically wounded), the walking lie detector (expertised insight) and the main way to contact the criminal elements of a city.
Hi!
Way to go it will be fun!
Agreed with others, starting Rogue is the best. Beyond that, considering your objectives...
- You won't need high-level spells (rather, that is obviously not your focus).
- You will want a high level of Sneak Attack.
- You will want as high as possible of a spellcaster level.

Meaning that the obvious choice is Arcane Trickster / Trickery Cleric.
While you may think the best repartition would be AT 12 / Cleric 8, because of Domain +1d8 poison damage and keep all ASI, I'd rather suggest either AT 14 / Cleric 6 or AT 13 / Cleric 7. Why? Mainly three reasons:
1. It seems you will rely on spellcasting to buff/heal mainly, so you can cope with maxing only DEX (meaning you can cope with 2 ASI less). Also, there are already a Bard and Druid that can take care of important heals such as Raise Dead or Greater Restoration. So you are not the primary healer not the primary spellcaster, hence you don't really need to go beyond 4th level.
2. 1d8 poison damage is nice but many creatures are resistant/immune to it. And you deal pretty good damage already.
3. Going Rogue 14 / Cleric 6 gives you access to Haste or Fly (among other good choices), along with Phantome Steed. And you get to see invisible people, and 2 CD per short rest.
4. Alternatively, going Cleric 7 gives you Dimension Door and Polymorph which are also pretty good spells.

So... Start as Rogue up to 3, dip Cleric 2 (or 3 for Spiritual Weapon) then build up as you see fit (I'd suggest Cleric 5 first though if you plan on being always in melee because of Spirit Guardians).