Just how big is a huge sized weapon?

[thecrimsondawn]

I did a couple of google searches, but all I get are dice damage questions. Just how large is a huge sized weapon compared to your standard human?
Looking at anime and video game characters, I would assume that the buster sword and the berserk sword are large sized at best, with masamune being questionable.
Does anyone have any pictures of someone wielding what would be a huge sized weapon, or a chart or something to share?

[Big Fau]

A 2-handed weapon sized for a medium creature is also Medium size. Therefore a 2-handed weapon sized for a Huge creature is Huge sized itself, which puts its length between 16 ft. and 32 ft. (numbers taken from a chart in the MM/PHB).

Edit: http://i.imgur.com/GOZRXDe.png

[AtlasSniperman]

No I don't have any pictures, but we can try and figure it out.

the Enlarge Person spell doubles a creatures height to move it one step up. So I think its fair to say that if we were to use humans as a unit of measurement;
medium; 1 human
Large; 2 human
Huge; 4 human
Gargantuan; 8 human
Colossal; 16 human

Simple enough there.
The Pathfinder SRD says

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
So a One-handed sword, your typical longsword is a Small object.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CyQx_vaaWsU/maxresdefault.jpg
The above image shows two fencers, one with a longsword(left) one with a katana(right). It appears that the longsword is about as tall as its wielders shoulders, or upper chest at least. But our human is Medium and this is a one-handed sword(according to 3.5 and PF) so its about 2/3 the size of a creature twice the size of its size category. By that logic we are looking at weapons being 4/3 the size of the wielder(or 2/3 if that's a two-handed weapon, I'm not an expert).

That would put a "Huge" longsword at 2*4/3 = 8/3 = 2 + 2/3 human
If that's a Two-handed weapon depicted, then that would put a "Huge" longsword at 4*2/3 = 8/3 = 2 + 2/3 human
Either way a "Huge" Longsword would be close to three times as tall as the average human.

Does that help?
I would say Masamune is long enough to be Large or Huge, it changes in different artworks, but it's too thin to be an actual weapon of those size categories


EDIT: Ninja'd

[Sayt]

There isn't anything hard and fast, but here's an approximation.

Adult human is 5'9", call it 6 foot. Average longsword is 3 foot long.

A cloud giant is called out as 18 feet tall, so proportionally, a huge longsword is 9 feet long.

That said, the Giantslayers handbook calls out that size categories are general and have breadth, for insrance a Storm Giant is 21 feet tall and also huge. Hill giants areally large at 10', as are fire giants at 16'

[thecrimsondawn]

Thanks for the replies everyone.
After reading everyone's input, I have a better picture in my head with just how the thing would look. By the math, its not as large as I was expecting tbh. By the above example of your size doubling each time you increase, if you have a 4ft long great sword and your size changes twice, then that is 4ft > 8ft > 16ft two handed weapon. That math matches up really well with AtlasSniperman's math too.

Well I have the size information I need, but now I need to figure out how one man is going to be able to slug around something nearly 3x his body size without
a) each swing throwing himself around or dislocating joints. or
b) the handle even being able to be gripped, or if made smaller, support the weapons weight :p

Thanks for the advice everyone :)

[Steven]

Real life answer: He can't.
d20 answer: A Wizard Did It AKA Magic AKA Don't Bring Your Physics Into This Thank You.

[Big Fau]

Thanks for the replies everyone.
After reading everyone's input, I have a better picture in my head with just how the thing would look. By the math, its not as large as I was expecting tbh. By the above example of your size doubling each time you increase, if you have a 4ft long great sword and your size changes twice, then that is 4ft > 8ft > 16ft two handed weapon. That math matches up really well with AtlasSniperman's math too.

Well I have the size information I need, but now I need to figure out how one man is going to be able to slug around something nearly 3x his body size without
a) each swing throwing himself around or dislocating joints. or
b) the handle even being able to be gripped, or if made smaller, support the weapons weight :p

Thanks for the advice everyone :)

Keep in mind that real-world humans have never reached beyond 20 Str, nor do we have access to magical materials like Adamantine or Mithral, nor can we use spells to reinforce an item's structure in such a way that a sheet of paper can withstand a ballista bolt.

[thecrimsondawn]

Keep in mind that real-world humans have never reached beyond 20 Str, nor do we have access to magical materials like Adamantine or Mithral, nor can we use spells to reinforce an item's structure in such a way that a sheet of paper can withstand a ballista bolt.

This is a good way to look at it, and @Steven, you are absolutely right, however it takes a bit of effort on my part to train my mind to think outside of physics since real life physics is what I know and am use to. Its a bit abstract, but its also a good exercise at the same time.

It helps a bit that what I am playing is a War Machine template and that is where a whole lot of this started since he can wield weapons up to two sizes larger. I needed to have a mental image of just what I would be throwing around. I was not sure if I would be swinging a axe the length of a house, or a sword the size of a car. Now I know and I can work with that :).

One last question, and I think I already know the answer to this as I feel I read this somewhere. Even if I wielded a weapon much larger then myself, the reach of the weapon never changes as your reach is based purely on your size and/or reach weapon ability right?

[AtlasSniperman]

I agree that it's kinda silly to see a human wielding a Huge size sword(and indeed he should take a penalty, I think it's -8 for being 2 size categories larger). But if you want to imagine it, then I would draw the mental image of Arnold Schwarzenegger or Andre the Giant or similar people, swinging a discus.

For a sideways swing you have your large, powerful, human standing with his left foot forward, turned slightly with his right foot back and the sword going behind him around his left. Then as he swings, he brings his right foot forward, spinning his body as he pulls the sword with him. It would have a large arc and lots of momentum. He'd be a slow attacker and be very open to attacks, but that's how he'd made side slashes. The only real benefit I can see is; if the opponent can't get away in time, the weight and momentum of the blade and its sheer size would sunder most arms and armaments attempting to block it. The blade would also be great for Cleave and Great Cleave.

Vertical swing would have both arms back over the shoulders, knees bent and upper chest lent back. Our strongman would then stand as quickly as he can, leaning forward as he brings the sword up over his head. This will also sunder if something tries to stop it, but by swinging our strongman's center of gravity and twisting his arms, we can have the blade adjust course easier than on a horizontal swing.

As for holding, You'll want to have large hands(piano fingers with a lot of muscle would be best). You'd need gauntlets too because your hands will be attacked. Gauntlets could be locking(generic) or designed to lock into the handle and secure the grip.

Momentum is probably the whole reasoning behind making a sword like Masamune; light enough to be wielded, and long enough to basically be a rigid whip.

That's just my thoughts.

Re: Reach.
This is correct. Otherwise a Huge creature with a "reach" of 15ft, would have a reach of 20-25ft with a weapon.

[Âmesang]

NOTE: What follows involves some very quick and dirty math that may or may not be accurate.

So a greatsword forged for a Medium-sized creature weighs 8 lb.

Let's assume that it's forged primarily from iron and that the handle's weight is negligible, leaving us with a blade approximately 60" long, 3¾" wide, and ⅛" thick if re-formed into a sheet of iron, giving us approximately 28⅛ cubic inches of iron which, based on the density of iron, weighs ever ever so slightly over 8 lb.

I bring this up because, as I recall… a Large greatsword weighs twice as much. :smalltongue: You know, Wizards of the Coast, there's fudging numbers for simplicity and then there's just outright silliness. So for 16 lb. you could have a greatsword that's 120" long… and still 3¾" wide and ⅛" thick… or, maybe, 90"×5"×⅛"?

A huge greatsword could thusly be 135"×6⅔"×⅛" (or 11½ ft. long) with a weight of 32 lb.

Yeah, dimensions by weight makes things really kind of screwy.

Edit: This reminds me that years and years ago I attempted to stat out Sephiroth (despite having never played Final Fantasy VII) and had him wield a Huge katana one-handed via Monkey Grip and enlarge weapon. I probably could have gone Gargantuan, but I was too focused on doing a $%&# ton of damage via Divine Might/Epic Divine Might and Iaijutsu Focus; he was some sort of 30th-Level Dragon Samurai/Exotic Weapons Master/Blackguard/Iaijutsu Master // 30th-level Sorcerer gestalt. I think his average katana damage was around 500 slashing if he pulled off an iaijutsu strike, but then I've never been very good at true optimization.

Edit II: So I did some more number crunching… because I'm stupid that way :smalltongue: …and if a Medium-sized greatsword blade is 60" × 3.75" × .125", weighing in at 8.00061460899 lb., then a Large greatsword could be 75.5952629937" × 4.72470393711" × .157490131237", weighing in at 16.001229218 lb. Likewise, a Huge greatsword would be 95.2440631181" × 5.95275394488" × .198425131496", weighing in at 32.002458436 lb.

This is based on the formula Lix × Wix × Dix, where L = length, W = width, D = depth, i = 1.25992104989 (the cubic root of 2) and x = the size-based exponential (0 = Medium, 1 = Large, 2 = Huge, &c).

[EyethatBinds]

I remember running an epic level campaign where a player decided to use the largest weapon possible. He wound up going with a gargantuan sized full blade, which he then took weapon supremacy with as well, so he could use it while grappled.

Thing did 4d8 plus his Strength. It was insane when he got a full, hasted attack.

[nyjastul69]

There isn't anything hard and fast, but here's an approximation.

Adult human is 5'9", call it 6 foot. Average longsword is 3 foot long.

A cloud giant is called out as 18 feet tall, so proportionally, a huge longsword is 9 feet long.

That said, the Giantslayers handbook calls out that size categories are general and have breadth, for insrance a Storm Giant is 21 feet tall and also huge. Hill giants areally large at 10', as are fire giants at 16'

Are you saying 5'9" is average male height, or average human height?

[thecrimsondawn]

Are you saying 5'9" is average male height, or average human height?

I think I read somewhere that that was indeed pathfinders average height for that race. If its off, its off by no more then 2 inches

[Sayt]

Are you saying 5'9" is average male height, or average human height?


I think I read somewhere that that was indeed pathfinders average height for that race. If its off, its off by no more then 2 inches

Sorry, I didn't clarify: 5'9" is the average height of a human man per Pathfinder's CRB, women being 5 inches shorter. I don't know how this stacks up against real life, but I'm presuming this is assuming chstacters are cisgender Taldanes (ie europeans) with access to decent food. Ethnicity, nutriton and pubescent hormone levels are all going to have some affect on that.

Edit: citing the pfsrd, humans men are 4'10"+2d10"

[thecrimsondawn]

A 2-handed weapon sized for a medium creature is also Medium size. Therefore a 2-handed weapon sized for a Huge creature is Huge sized itself, which puts its length between 16 ft. and 32 ft. (numbers taken from a chart in the MM/PHB).

Edit: http://i.imgur.com/GOZRXDe.png

THAT is a large greatsword? My god.... and a huge is twice that size. :O

[Asteron]

Sorry, I didn't clarify: 5'9" is the average height of a human man per Pathfinder's CRB, women being 5 inches shorter. I don't know how this stacks up against real life, but I'm presuming this is assuming chstacters are cisgender Taldanes (ie europeans) with access to decent food. Ethnicity, nutriton and pubescent hormone levels are all going to have some affect on that.

Edit: citing the pfsrd, humans men are 4'10"+2d10"


Average height in the world today for an adult male is 5'8". In the US it is 5'10". So they are pretty close to today's numbers.

[thecrimsondawn]

So I was out in our backyard today, and I was looking at a tree that is there. I did a rough measure of it and concluded, that if I was to rip a tree out of the earth, It would effectively be a huge sized club or quarterstaff. That is really scary when you compare it to the houses nearby and the damage you could do to them if you where a being able to swing around something like that freely.

Also, this got me thinking about size stacking. I found a rule that was posted saying that size does not stack just like all other types of bonuses, but the way its worded leaves a small window open.

If I happened to enchant a tree...err, huge quarterstaff with Shillelagh, or oil it, or whatever to make that spell work, and then was to get into a Primal Fury stance (or cudgel style, whatever you prefer), that would be 2 steps for the normal weapon size, 2 steps for Shillelagh, and 4 steps for the stance or style you are in.

The weapon deals damage with Shillelagh as if it was larger
YOU deal damage with your weapons as if you where 2 sizes larger
and your weapons base size is already huge.

The only thing I cant find a way to add on by raw is a way to enlarge person, but even that could be 'created" via spell creation rules to work on a construct.


Do you think this would stack this way?

[GreatWyrmGold]

The above image shows two fencers, one with a longsword(left) one with a katana(right). It appears that the longsword is about as tall as its wielders shoulders, or upper chest at least. But our human is Medium and this is a one-handed sword(according to 3.5 and PF) so its about 2/3 the size of a creature twice the size of its size category. By that logic we are looking at weapons being 4/3 the size of the wielder(or 2/3 if that's a two-handed weapon, I'm not an expert).
Historical longswords are designed for use with two hands, but D&D longswords are one-handed weapons. The question is simple; do we treat this as a simple error and assume that the longsword in the D&D book is a misnamed arming sword, or do we assume that it's a manifestation of the ludicrously large sword trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BFS) so common in fantasy?
In my opinion, the latter works better, because the 8 lbs of a D&D longsword is heavier than real zweihanders. Luckily, it's also a common fantasy trope for swords to be too thick and have too little taper.


Well I have the size information I need, but now I need to figure out how one man is going to be able to slug around something nearly 3x his body size without
a) each swing throwing himself around or dislocating joints. or
b) the handle even being able to be gripped, or if made smaller, support the weapons weight :p
Have you considered magic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AWizardDidIt)?
More specifically...magically-enhanced strength and durability, plus extremely grippy gloves and perhaps some immovable boots (with the button on the inside).


One last question, and I think I already know the answer to this as I feel I read this somewhere. Even if I wielded a weapon much larger then myself, the reach of the weapon never changes as your reach is based purely on your size and/or reach weapon ability right?
That's the RAW truth.

[Deophaun]

Keep in mind that real-world humans have never reached beyond 20 Str
Not true. Hossein Rezazadeh is, I believe, the world record holder for weightlifting. He was able to lift about 580 lbs over his head in the 2004 Olympics. That puts him at a 23 Str.

[Erit]

Not true. Hossein Rezazadeh is, I believe, the world record holder for weightlifting. He was able to lift about 580 lbs over his head in the 2004 Olympics. That puts him at a 23 Str.

That man is actually a particularly small Goliath. The Olympics just haven't started testing for genetic superiority yet.

[Big Fau]

Not true. Hossein Rezazadeh is, I believe, the world record holder for weightlifting. He was able to lift about 580 lbs over his head in the 2004 Olympics. That puts him at a 23 Str.


A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).

While 23 Str is indeed the limit for 480-600lbs, that is for lifting a heavy load that you can still walk around with. 580lbs, lifted overhead, is 19 Str.

[Deophaun]

While 23 Str is indeed the limit for 480-600lbs, that is for lifting a heavy load that you can still walk around with. 580lbs, lifted overhead, is 19 Str.
Nope.

Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head.

A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).

A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his or her maximum load. Favorable conditions (such as being on smooth ground or dragging a slick object) can double these numbers, and bad circumstances (such as being on broken ground or pushing an object that snags) can reduce them to one-half or less.
Yes, you can lift double your load off the ground, but off the ground != over your head.

[Ramza00]

Remember lets say we have a human at 6 feet and suddenly due to magic he is 12feet tall and all of his weapons would double in size.

That means the volume of the sword is 8 times bigger 2^3. Twice as long, twice as thick, twice as wide. 8 Times the weight.

But a huge size person a person who is now 24 feet tall is 64 times bigger, 4^3. Four times as long, four times as thick, four times as wide. 64 times the weight.

Now huge size can be 16 feet or 32 feet or a number in between. But even if you take 16/6 which is the ratio of 8/3 that is still 512/27 which is just above 18.97 times the weight.

And it is not just the weight, these weapons act as levers so we are talking about a massive amount of torque if someone is wielding that huge of weapon while still having a 6ft tall frame.

[Âmesang]

It's why I tried making the point that Large weapons aren't that "Large" due to the game insisting that they weight 2× as much as an equivalent Medium weapon, as opposed to 8× as much if you had doubled its length, width, and depth. :smallconfused:

[Erit]

It's why I tried making the point that Large weapons aren't that "Large" due to the game insisting that they weight 2× as much as an equivalent Medium weapon, as opposed to 8× as much if you had doubled its length, width, and depth. :smallconfused:

D&D has a habit of running afoul of the square-cubed law. I blame the sorcerers.

[thecrimsondawn]

D&D has a habit of running afoul of the square-cubed law. I blame the sorcerers.

Im sure they decided on the more simple math method due to the game already being really math intensive and fantasy based at that. Lets not forgot how much of a pain negative AC was way back when.

[Âmesang]

Maybe the size/weight discrepancy is due to the weapons having speed holes drilled into 'em?

They make the weapon swing faster.

[Crake]

I agree that it's kinda silly to see a human wielding a Huge size sword(and indeed he should take a penalty, I think it's -8 for being 2 size categories larger).

That is not quite correct. When wielding oversized weapons, 2 things happens. Firstly, the weapon increases a size category, and the wielder is imposed with a -2 penalty. If the weapon goes over two handed, it becomes impossible to wield. The only kind of huge sword a medium person could wield would be a huge short sword, which ends up working out to be the same damage as a greatsword anyway (2d6) and still requiring 2 hands to wield (it went from light to two handed, two weapon size categories). The only difference is, since the huge short sword is made for giant hands, it imposes a -4 penalty to wield, so a medium greatsword is in every way better. There is an optional rule in the DMG where a huge short sword would actually just straight up be treated as a medium longsword, or a small greatsword would be a medium longsword etc, but that is an optional rule that basically just removes the penalties for wrongly sized weapons.

[thecrimsondawn]

This may be by RAW, but what about when a class/race feature such as War Machine (the template) comes into play? It says you can wield weapons up to two size cats larger without any penalty. That is effectively saying your construct body is so much stronger then a human, you just have that much upper body strength.

[Âmesang]

I did once have a divine emissary wield a Large longsword instead of a Medium greatsword simply because the former was his deity's favored weapon and he gained bonuses for doing so, but he was also based on a character I had originally created in Dynasty Warriors 5: Empires so it also matched the ridiculous appearance of his two-handed sword in that game (holy avenger/Fu Xi's sword).

[thecrimsondawn]

I did once have a divine emissary wield a Large longsword instead of a Medium greatsword simply because the former was his deity's favored weapon and he gained bonuses for doing so, but he was also based on a character I had originally created in Dynasty Warriors 5: Empires so it also matched the ridiculous appearance of his two-handed sword in that game (holy avenger/Fu Xi's sword).

Frankly, RAW aside, I dont see a reason why a titan's grip feat should not be in the game. Trading hit chance for more damage and requiring a sizeable strength score to gain the feat/wield the weapon is really a good trade off and is rather balanced. If such a feat was in the game (and not an archetype) I could only see a couple ways to make optimal use of it. a) two handed fighter, and just getting crazy crits with an oversized crit range 2 hander, b) using a quarterstaff or club, and using the style feat, with the lv1 druid spell in oil form to gain temporary massive damage on each hit, or c) using a path of war stance with some nice strikes and boosts to bring out VERY strong one hit wonders. Looking at pathfinder as a whole, that is not really that big of a boon compared to things like sap master/sap adept for sneak attack, MMS monk getting feats WAY earlier then they should, crafter focused wizards who can make constructs many times stronger then the current CR at a fraction of the price, and so on.

I hope whoever is in charge of adding content to pathfinder considers this, seeing how I am hearing rumors of removing feats that add more class feature feats and FCB bonus feats. That will make every feat far more valuable then they currently are.

[TheFurith]

I did a couple of google searches, but all I get are dice damage questions. Just how large is a huge sized weapon compared to your standard human?
Looking at anime and video game characters, I would assume that the buster sword and the berserk sword are large sized at best, with masamune being questionable.
Does anyone have any pictures of someone wielding what would be a huge sized weapon, or a chart or something to share?

As written you double it's size, and then double it again.

Realistically that would never work, you'd just end up with some big floppy thing because it lacks the proper thickness and structure to support it's self, let alone be wielded.

As far as pictures of somebody wielding a huge weapons? You aren't going to find one. You could check out MichaelCthulhu on youtube, that guy makes swords with the weight of a RAW huge weapon and "wields"(forcibly drops) them. But as far as wielding them like a real weapon? Even if you were strong enough, you'd just end up throwing yourself across the room from momentum, so you won't really get any better than just lifting it and dropping it anyway.

Never mind the laughable concept of actually hitting a moving opponent and not being hit yourself.... But hey, magic and such so go for it.

[thecrimsondawn]

As written you double it's size, and then double it again.

Realistically that would never work, you'd just end up with some big floppy thing because it lacks the proper thickness and structure to support it's self, let alone be wielded.

As far as pictures of somebody wielding a huge weapons? You aren't going to find one. You could check out MichaelCthulhu on youtube, that guy makes swords with the weight of a RAW huge weapon and "wields"(forcibly drops) them. But as far as wielding them like a real weapon? Even if you were strong enough, you'd just end up throwing yourself across the room from momentum, so you won't really get any better than just lifting it and dropping it anyway.

Never mind the laughable concept of actually hitting a moving opponent and not being hit yourself.... But hey, magic and such so go for it.

Ya, as an earlier poster said, logic and physics go out the window in pathfinder, lol. That was the same mental image I had before I made this thread, and its still hard to even picture how it would work with magic. The closest example I found was the tree in my back yard that counts as a huge sized weapon, so if I ripped a tree out of the ground and used it as a club, that would be about right.

[Âmesang]

Frankly, RAW aside, I dont see a reason why a titan's grip feat should not be in the game. Trading hit chance for more damage and requiring a sizeable strength score to gain the feat/wield the weapon is really a good trade off and is rather balanced. If such a feat was in the game (and not an archetype) I could only see a couple ways to make optimal use of it. a) two handed fighter, and just getting crazy crits with an oversized crit range 2 hander, b) using a quarterstaff or club, and using the style feat, with the lv1 druid spell in oil form to gain temporary massive damage on each hit, or c) using a path of war stance with some nice strikes and boosts to bring out VERY strong one hit wonders.
Complete Warrior has the Monkey Grip [General] and Wield Oversized Weapon [Epic] feats, either of which could be combined with a spell that allows for a command word-activate quickened enlarge weapon or similar effect (so for the epic feat, a human could wield a Huge longsword one-handed without an attack penalty, or a Gargantuan longsword two-handed with a –2 attack penalty).

[thecrimsondawn]

Complete Warrior has the Monkey Grip [General] and Wield Oversized Weapon [Epic] feats, either of which could be combined with a spell that allows for a command word-activate quickened enlarge weapon or similar effect (so for the epic feat, a human could wield a Huge longsword one-handed without an attack penalty, or a Gargantuan longsword two-handed with a –2 attack penalty).

3.5 has quite a few things that are fun and or interesting, however that is 3.5 and not pathfinder. I miss my HoH splatbook content :/