[3.5] Psions, again!

[Dr.Zero]

So, after we understood how the Metapsionic feats work, we think to give it a try.
It is a very smooth and interesting concept, after all.

The allowed sources will be: core, expanded psionics handbook, complete whatever (adventurer, arcane, psion, etc...), tome of magic, magic item compendium. Nothing else (so no mind's eye material, magic of eberron, etc). In this way we hope to keep things simple (it is literally years that we don't play).

The campaign will start with PCs around level 4-5 (and probably will end around level 19, only to give a taste of high level builds and use them during the final battle).

Now, about psionics. From what I see, and from what I read, they are generally weaker than arcane casters but slightly more flexible.
Their Powers mostly mimic spells, but they don't scale automatically.
So, for example (and it is only that: an example to set a bar regarding the raw output power), an arcane caster level 12 can spam scorching rays with his vanilla version doing 3x4d6 damage, and up to that he can use higher slots to empower, enlarge, maximize, quicken them; where a Psion must use almost all of his allowed power only to bring his energy rays at the same level of the arcane's vanilla, and if he decides to empower it, he must reduce the base power/overchannel and use psionic focus, too. Anyway the psion will deplete his PP faster than the wizard/sorcerer ending his slots.

On the other hand they have the Silent/Still spell equivalent feats for free. And they don't need a book.

They can learn only a fixed number of spells, but Psychic Reformation almost fixes the problem for a very little XP price.


So the main problem I can see is about the loopholes.

From what I see, as long as we remain within the aforementioned sources, there are mainly 2 kinds of very bad loopholes:
1. Based on Synchronicity, but we can fix that either removing completely the power or stating clearly that any PC/NPC may be affected by no more than one Synchronicity or similar "give the PC a free action before next turn" power/spell every round. Which seems a clear and simple solution (coherent with what happens in other cases, where, for example, you cannot usually add deflections or shields from different Powers/Spells)
2. Based on Bestow Power: particularly the one with Affinity Field, which permits to recharge PCs' power indefinitely (ah, I have to congratulate myself because I discovered this one on my own, even before reading of it; I'm wondering how the devs missed this). We are going to have probably a single psion, so it's either banning/nerfing affiniity field/fission or change bestow power; anyway in the case someone else wants to multiclass as psion later, I'm thinking to change Bestow Power like: "3 power points are drained from your pool, and you can give 2 to someone else. You can augment this power: for every 3 points you drain from your pool, you can give 2 more". It is mostly a rephrasing, but In this way, using the word "draining" it cannot be abused with affinity field (since the drain should work like a damage and hit everyone in the field). Maybe it may be abused to damage psion enemies, but hey, in that case I'd call that a feature. :)

Everything else sounds more or less as things that a good wizard or druid or cleric can do anyway, so we think we can live with it.

Aside the loopholes, comes the flavor: we are torn regarding the choice "Psionic is different".
Honestly magic and sorcery sound as "ritual" magic", where Psionic is a total different kind of power, and it we (specially the players) thought about declaring them different, since it would add a lot of flavor. On the other hand, since the psion will probably be the main caster, he needs to have some dispel power working on magic too. So if we go with Psionic is different, he probably will use a feat for Tap Mantle, to take the Magic Mantle. But I fear that this can break the balance against magic enemies who then cannot reiterate dispelling his powers. Which means I will have to add psion enemies. Moreover I'd have to add PR to monsters according to my own ideas (since giving them automatically PR=SR seems lame), so it seems a lot of work for very little gain. Therefore personally I'm bent toward ignoring the flavor and use the Psionic and magic transparency, explaining these reasons to the group.

Does anyone see problems with how I'm going to manage it? Like very bad, game breaking, loopholes that I missed? (About minor ones, as long as they are really minor, and not game breaking, I think we ca live with that)?
Or some generally bad experiences with Psions that made you say: "Never again!"? :)

[The Glyphstone]

Have you considered just altering psionics fluff, if that's the only hangup? I think that's what you intended with Option 1 of adopting transparency, but it's not as hard as you might think. The default fluff already has Sorcerers using arcane magic via raw Charisma, drawing power from within themselves to wield magic. If you think of Psions as just an intellectual sort of Sorcerer, using raw brainpower to reshape the world (as opposed to Wizards, who use their brainpower to study and learn magical rituals for power), it's the easiest way I've found to massage transparency into the world.


As far as problems, the only potential pitfall you might run into is that Psions are far more Nova-capable than even most Wizards. The Power Point system means a Psion going full-out every round will rapidly drain themselves into uselessness; if your group is used to the 15 Minute Adventuring Day style where you burn through your caster spell slots, rest for 8 hours, then repeat, they'll look (and be) significantly more powerful than if they have to ration their power supply through an entire regular day of fights.

[Name1]

Everything else sounds more or less as things that a good wizard or druid or cleric can do anyway, so we think we can live with it.

This is basically the most important thing to realize: Psionic characters, Spell-to-Power Erudite aside, are not Tier 1. If you have a druid or wizard or cleric in your party, then the psionic character will not break the game anymore than they do.
Psionic characters are those "higher floor, lower ceiling"-kinda characters, since their powers often allow augmentations that make a single power two or more spells in one, but a psionic character will never reach the high ground that is Ice Assassin or Gate.

If you want to, you could just say that dispels of both sides work against the other. It's not too far a stretch, and psionic-magic-transparency is kinda a given in most (by which I mean all except for one) campaigns I played in, and I believe that it's that way in most games. So yeah, by all means, as long as there isn't a very specific reason why the transparency shouldn't apply (like a Dead Magic Zone specifically mentioning the Weave and all that jazz), apply it.

Other loopholes you should be aware of... well, Forced Dream/the savegame trick is broken. By which I mean, it doesn't work if you don't metagame or have an int score that would justify you basing your plans around your PP-balance.

I guess you could make a point saying that psionics are broken in Pathfinder, because they retain the same benefits and their powers haven't lost their strenghts as much as the spells have, so in Pathfinder, it wouldn't be wrong to say a psionic character can beat a fullcaster. Then again, a well-built 3.5 commoner can beat a Pathfinder fullcaster, so interpret that how you want.

In 3.5 though? If you allow casters, you can allow psionics without trouble.

[Dr.Zero]

Have you considered just altering psionics fluff, if that's the only hangup? I think that's what you intended with Option 1 of adopting transparency, but it's not as hard as you might think. The default fluff already has Sorcerers using arcane magic via raw Charisma, drawing power from within themselves to wield magic. If you think of Psions as just an intellectual sort of Sorcerer, using raw brainpower to reshape the world (as opposed to Wizards, who use their brainpower to study and learn magical rituals for power), it's the easiest way I've found to massage transparency into the world.




If you want to, you could just say that dispels of both sides work against the other. It's not too far a stretch, and psionic-magic-transparency is kinda a given in most (by which I mean all except for one) campaigns I played in, and I believe that it's that way in most games. So yeah, by all means, as long as there isn't a very specific reason why the transparency shouldn't apply (like a Dead Magic Zone specifically mentioning the Weave and all that jazz), apply it.


Probably I will do so, indeed: "All powers and magic have the same origin and represent the ability to alter the fabric of universe with some part of your mind, the only difference is that the rituals and magic words of sorcerers and wizards are like mantra and superstitions. They think those acts are the source of their powers, so they need to do them." It is not perfect, but it can work. :)



As far as problems, the only potential pitfall you might run into is that Psions are far more Nova-capable than even most Wizards. The Power Point system means a Psion going full-out every round will rapidly drain themselves into uselessness; if your group is used to the 15 Minute Adventuring Day style where you burn through your caster spell slots, rest for 8 hours, then repeat, they'll look (and be) significantly more powerful than if they have to ration their power supply through an entire regular day of fights.

Ah, about nova, that I'm quite sure will happen. The guy is very particular: he was used to take bad classes, knowing them are bad, but then he tried to milk them for POWEEERRRRRR. Not like using completely broken combos, but trying to use at the best the basic feats.
Taking a monk, going with the finesse, pumping to the sky DEX as primary and a little less WIS as secondary. 4 levels of Shou Disciple to use even light weapons for flurry. Ending like 4 Shou Disciple/14 Monks or something similar. It still wasn't that great (we are talking about monk :)), but he rarely missed an attack and damn he it could dodge attacks and make some saves. :) And above all, when they were captured and stripped of everything, his unarmed strikes gave him a moment of glory.

So I'm pretty sure he will take Overchannel and Talented Overchannel and try to go nova and overchannelling and splitting or empowering crystal shards and energy rays, as basic spam damage dealers.

If he results too strong, I think I will use a longer streak of enemies to make him more prudent with his PP. :)


This is basically the most important thing to realize: Psionic characters, Spell-to-Power Erudite aside, are not Tier 1. If you have a druid or wizard or cleric in your party, then the psionic character will not break the game anymore than they do.
Psionic characters are those "higher floor, lower ceiling"-kinda characters, since their powers often allow augmentations that make a single power two or more spells in one, but a psionic character will never reach the high ground that is Ice Assassin or Gate.


Eh, if in the end they result weaker than the usual casters, that's even better.
Indeed my worry is not the power of the single class in itself, but keeping the PCs in the same league. If they all are strong, I use stronger monsters. If they all suck, I go with weaker monsters.
If psions are slightly less effective than the other casters, that's good: more power to the melee characters. :)



Other loopholes you should be aware of... well, Forced Dream/the savegame trick is broken. By which I mean, it doesn't work if you don't metagame or have an int score that would justify you basing your plans around your PP-balance.

I guess you could make a point saying that psionics are broken in Pathfinder, because they retain the same benefits and their powers haven't lost their strenghts as much as the spells have, so in Pathfinder, it wouldn't be wrong to say a psionic character can beat a fullcaster. Then again, a well-built 3.5 commoner can beat a Pathfinder fullcaster, so interpret that how you want.

In 3.5 though? If you allow casters, you can allow psionics without trouble.

Forced dream seems to be in the Magic of Eberron, which is already excluded.
So I avoided that problem completely, luckily. :)
And yes, the core will be 3.5. So I hope it will be all fine.

Thanks to both!

[digiman619]

If the flavor of psionics is tripping you up, Ultimate Psionic for Pathfinder suggested a refluff as runes
While psionics uses tattoos that might have appearances that could be described as “runic,” having the power point system based around runes, which already have ties to races like the dwarves and to certain magic spells, makes it an easy way to incorporate the psionic system into your game without the mental,spiritual, or crystalline ties that the default psionic theme brings. As rune magic, psionics would still use power points, augmentation, and psionic focus. The psionic classes can even still be used, all by changing the names but without any need to change the mechanics.
Changes
To change psionics into rune magic, the below suggestions are given to the different aspects of the system.
Power points: Rename power points to runic energy or even mana.
Powers: Simply call powers runes. Specific powers such as detect psionics could simply be called detect runic energy or even just use detect magic, although keep in mind that psionic creatures, which would instead be runic creatures, would still be detected, as detailed below.
Psionic Focus: Probably the easiest change, simply call it focus or runic focus.
Class Names: The psion could become the runecaster, the psychic warrior the runic warrior, the soulknife the runeblade, and the wilder the wild pattern.
Manifestations: Where psionic powers might carry different displays, such as lights, smells, or sounds, rune magic would use visible runes that appear either on the caster, on the target, or even as a pattern of runes that appear in the air. These runes might be accompanied by a sound or some other display depending upon the desired implementation in your game.
Psicrystals: Instead of being a small crystal, the psicrystal could be changed to be a small ceramic carving with a variety of runes covering its form and called a runestone. The runes would grant the carving the same game statistics as a standard psicrystal, but its appearance would be more in-line with the theme of rune magic.
Psionic Creatures: It is likely going to be difficult to incorporate psionic creatures into your games without more significant changes, as their appearances are a bit more detailed and thematic. However, this doesn’t mean it can’t be done! For example, the brain mole might instead be itself covered in runes and seek out new runes to siphon energy in order to feed.
Sample Powers: The chart below gives several psionic powers with their normal name and then a potential name for a rune magic theme.
Alternate Power Names
Astral construct ->Runic protector
Animal affinity ->Augment self
Energy ray ->Runic shot
Offensive precognition ->Insightful attacks
Precognition ->Intuitive edge

[Calthropstu]

My gm for psi game solved that problem with different but interactive with diminished power. For instance, dispel magic, spellcraft/psicraft, use magic/psionic device (and their psionic equivalents) have a -5 penalty when dealing with the other.
Detect psionics and magic reveal 1 aura level lower, (so detect psionics wouldn't register low end magic items).

It preserves the flavor and lessens the mechanical effect.

[Calthropstu]

On a different note, psionics play a lot different than wizards. If you think their power selection limited, like a sorcerer's, think again. Many of their powers are augmentable for higher spell effects. Astral Construct, for example, gives them basically summon monster 1-9 for a single selection.
The psionic dominate can function as dominate, and dominate monster when augmented. Many other powers have this capability to mimic multiple spells for a single power selection.

Another staple of psionics that makes a difference is boosted dcs. If you're going nova, you're casting at max ml, and those dcs are going to be high.

There is one thing I adore though. The only defence against the psionic version of finger of death, decerberate, is to hit yourself with a dimensional anchor. I love how that works.

[Dr.Zero]

I think I will not keep banging my head against a wall, and go with: "They are really the same, once you put aside superstitions, beliefs and faith. So psionics say: "It's the power of my mind! You magic guys are only superstitious people." And wizards say: "It's magic and just another kind of spontaneous casting, but even more savage than the one used by sorcerers, since the so called Psions must strain themselves (=use more power) to increase the basic damage, while us skilled casters don't need to do so(=a first slot spell increases its damage automatically).""
And I'll call it a day.

Probably I can use it to make him (or them, if someones multiclasses as a psionic class) look like pariahs -or anyway inferiors- in the eyes of normal casters.

Of course, I will explain to the group that the main reason is that I don't want to mess with too many things. :smallbiggrin:

The penalty is a nice idea, but for the sake of my mental sanity, I've decided to keep things as straight and simple as possible. I don't want to worry too much about one single field, while who knows in these years what crazy combo the others have planned to play.

That "dimensional anchor" trick against decrebrate is nice.

[AnachroNinja]

The source of the power doesn't really need to be the same even for full transparency if you think about it. For most spells and powers, what your doing is shaping power into the form you want. Wizards use ritual and rigid order to bend raw power and summon fire from the elemental plane and hit you with an orb of fire. A sorcerer uses innate power in his blood and the force of his personality to essentially force the universe to rewrite it's own laws for a moment and give him fire for his orb of fire. A psion is so intelligent and willful that he simply uses the raw force of his will to change the world around him and cause bolts of energy to form.

At heart they are all going about it a different way and with different sources of their power but achieving similar outcomes. As a result, one can imagine that they in some ways are similar. Think of dispel magic. It normally works whether your a sorcerer, a cleric, or a wizard because it's something more like raw energy that is dispersing the structure of your opponent's spell, causing it to fizzle. There's really no reason why it WOULDN'T work the same way with psionics. You don't need to understand how that guys funny looking bicycle works to shove a stick into the spokes.

Magic psionics transparency is something I can't recommend enough. There's already going to be issues with providing reasonable loot for him since he's got a whole different style of items. You really don't want to compound that problem any more.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Typically, sorcerers and wizards draw in energy from the world around them, using their force of personality or rigid spell-forms to manipulate outside energies, similar to The Weave, in Faerun. Psionic manifesters, however, channel their inner energies and project them onto themselves or onto the outside world. In most cases, they function the same way on a meta level, with the effects being basically the same, but fluffed a certain way.

However, Faerun in particular emphasizes this as a very important part of the setting, recognizing the above paradigm on a mechanical level. For instance, a dead magic zone shuts down casters of all stripes, with only a few ways to overcome the crippling lack of magic in an area (such as the Initiate of Mystra feat and the invoke magic spell), while manifesters have their own internal Weave, which "hooks up" to the external Weave, allowing them to project their energies onto the world around them; a dead magic zone shuts down their ability to connect with the external Weave, but their internal Weave allows them to use Personal powers even in a dead magic zone.

[Dr.Zero]

Eh, eventually, like I said, I went with total transparency, adding the flavor only for the fluff/RP part and explaining that the wizards particularly will see psionics as primitive casters (a bit like V thinks of Warlocks).
I've to say that the group did seem to like it, anyway (or at least to accept it without grumbling too much).

Thanks to all for the replies.

[Name1]

On a different note, psionics play a lot different than wizards. If you think their power selection limited, like a sorcerer's, think again. Many of their powers are augmentable for higher spell effects. Astral Construct, for example, gives them basically summon monster 1-9 for a single selection.
The psionic dominate can function as dominate, and dominate monster when augmented. Many other powers have this capability to mimic multiple spells for a single power selection.

Another staple of psionics that makes a difference is boosted dcs. If you're going nova, you're casting at max ml, and those dcs are going to be high.

There is one thing I adore though. The only defence against the psionic version of finger of death, decerberate, is to hit yourself with a dimensional anchor. I love how that works.

Eh, it sorta depends: On one hand, yeah, a psionic character can augment his powers to achieve a few different effects, so he can learn a good part of all psionic powers... Yet, a sorcerer has the benefit that he has a bigger selection of spells he can add to his list of known spells. That's part of the reason why a psion, like a sorcerer, is still only Tier 2, it simply lacks the big list sorcerers can choose from.

On the topic of DCs... I think the DC difference between a 20-point power and a 9th-level spell is... a +1 for the power. Something Earth spell would fix immediately. If a psionic character novas, he'll have a few more high-level powers to throw out, but most of those powers are underwhelming compared to what sorcerers can throw out (Gate, Armageddon and Ice Assassin, again). Also, if something depends on CL in a spell, a psion will need to spent PP for it, meaning he has to throw out a 20-point power for self-buffs that a sorcerer would handle with a level 3-4 spell slot. Of course, psions self-buffs are often inferior to their spell-variants, but that's just another thing where psionic characters just aren't that good.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also, if something depends on CL in a spell, a psion will need to spent PP for it, meaning he has to throw out a 20-point power for self-buffs that a sorcerer would handle with a level 3-4 spell slot. Of course, psions self-buffs are often inferior to their spell-variants, but that's just another thing where psionic characters just aren't that good.Manifester levels do not depend on augmentation to function. Metamorphosis at manifester level 15 still only requires 7 pp to function at full strength. Most (but not all) powers do require augmentation to function at full capacity, however, but variables such as duration and range are oftentimes completely independent of how many power points you pump into them.

And speaking of metamorphosis, it's a much more potent power than polymorph, with polymorph's only factor of superiority being that it's a Touch-range power, rather than Personal (though that doesn't prevent you from affecting your psicrystal with metamorphosis, either way).

[edit] Many psionic self-buffs are actually far better than their magical equivalents. Metaphysical weapon can grant a much larger enhancement bonus to your weapon at high levels than the magical equivalent, due to no cap, defensive precognition and inertial armor can be augmented (as opposed to being a flat +1 or +4, respectively), and so on. The way that arcane and divine magic shine, however, is that there are a lot more buffs that can affect targets other than yourself (and your psicrystal), which is where psionics falls flat.

[Thaneus]

Ain't Psions able to spend PP as high as their ML?
Does this not mean, they can punp their ML and/or decease PP cost to Push the Powers through the roof RAW?
e.g. Torc of Power Preseveration (cost -1PP); Earth Power (cost -1PP); Overchannel (ML+3) or Wild Surge (ML+4); A level 13 Psion with those will be able to have +4 effective ML so can spend effective 17pp and use this to blast 17w6 crystal shard no save. When using empower and/or the magnificent chaotic surge from Anarchic Initiate PrC the number might es well go way up the chard.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ain't Psions able to spend PP as high as their ML?
Does this not mean, they can punp their ML and/or decease PP cost to Push the Powers through the roof RAW?
e.g. Torc of Power Preseveration (cost -1PP); Earth Power (cost -1PP); Overchannel (ML+3) or Wild Surge (ML+4); A level 13 Psion with those will be able to have +4 effective ML so can spend effective 17pp and use this to blast 17w6 crystal shard no save. When using empower and/or the magnificent chaotic surge from Anarchic Initiate PrC the number might es well go way up the chard.Basically correct, except the manifester level for a psion (sans wild surge) can only have +2 from Overchannel until level 15, and will have an actual manifester level of 15 in the above scenario. Since the torc and Earth Power reduce the cost by 2 pp, he can spend an additional 2 pp (up to his manifester level, remember), so he can, in fact, manifest a 17d6 crystal shard. Add a psionic version of the arcanist gloves (from the MIC, with rules in the MIC for psionic versions of magic items) for an additional +2 pp in augmentation.

[Name1]

Manifester levels do not depend on augmentation to function. Metamorphosis at manifester level 15 still only requires 7 pp to function at full strength. Most (but not all) powers do require augmentation to function at full capacity, however, but variables such as duration and range are oftentimes completely independent of how many power points you pump into them.

And speaking of metamorphosis, it's a much more potent power than polymorph, with polymorph's only factor of superiority being that it's a Touch-range power, rather than Personal (though that doesn't prevent you from affecting your psicrystal with metamorphosis, either way).

[edit] Many psionic self-buffs are actually far better than their magical equivalents. Metaphysical weapon can grant a much larger enhancement bonus to your weapon at high levels than the magical equivalent, due to no cap, defensive precognition and inertial armor can be augmented (as opposed to being a flat +1 or +4, respectively), and so on. The way that arcane and divine magic shine, however, is that there are a lot more buffs that can affect targets other than yourself (and your psicrystal), which is where psionics falls flat.

Manifester Levels do matter, yes, but my point was that some things (damage die, for one) tend to be increased by spending PP instead of being an automatic gain, as they are for regular casters.

Maybe I should have worded it differently: Psionic self-buffs LACK a lot of buffs spellcasters have access to. Surge of Fortune is one that springs to mind, and I believe there is no psionic equivalent to True Strike or Wraithstrike either (except maybe the Deep Impact feat for Wraithstrike, which is, well, a feat).

And while Metamorphosis is better than polymorph, when you compare Metamorphosis, Greater with Shapechange, I'd prefer Shapechange due to changing being a free action, the lack of an XP cost and Reserves of Strenght/Suffer the Flesh allowing you to break the 25 HD cap. Though I agree that if you let the big modifiers (Consumption Field etc.) apply to ML too, yes, psionic self buffs suddenly gained a lot more relevance (because otherwise you will be very reliant on power link shards to augment your ML).

So while you could say that Metaphysical Weapon grants a larger bonus than Greater Magic Weapon, Metaphysical Weapon costs 17 PP to reach that effect, whereas Greater Magic Weapon gives you the benefit for a 3rd level slot. And... if you spent a 9th-level power on increasing your flat enhancement-bonus on your weapon... I think you might be doing something wrong.

All in all, my rant on psionic self-buffs might have been a bit unjustified, yet I still feel that psionic characters lack a lot of options spellcasters have, buff-wise and in other areas, and my original point, that psionic characters should not be considered Tier 1 unless it's a Spell-to-Power Erudite, still stands.

[Calthropstu]

Manifester Levels do matter, yes, but my point was that some things (damage die, for one) tend to be increased by spending PP instead of being an automatic gain, as they are for regular casters.

Maybe I should have worded it differently: Psionic self-buffs LACK a lot of buffs spellcasters have access to. Surge of Fortune is one that springs to mind, and I believe there is no psionic equivalent to True Strike or Wraithstrike either (except maybe the Deep Impact feat for Wraithstrike, which is, well, a feat).

And while Metamorphosis is better than polymorph, when you compare Metamorphosis, Greater with Shapechange, I'd prefer Shapechange due to changing being a free action, the lack of an XP cost and Reserves of Strenght/Suffer the Flesh allowing you to break the 25 HD cap. Though I agree that if you let the big modifiers (Consumption Field etc.) apply to ML too, yes, psionic self buffs suddenly gained a lot more relevance (because otherwise you will be very reliant on power link shards to augment your ML).

So while you could say that Metaphysical Weapon grants a larger bonus than Greater Magic Weapon, Metaphysical Weapon costs 17 PP to reach that effect, whereas Greater Magic Weapon gives you the benefit for a 3rd level slot. And... if you spent a 9th-level power on increasing your flat enhancement-bonus on your weapon... I think you might be doing something wrong.

All in all, my rant on psionic self-buffs might have been a bit unjustified, yet I still feel that psionic characters lack a lot of options spellcasters have, buff-wise and in other areas, and my original point, that psionic characters should not be considered Tier 1 unless it's a Spell-to-Power Erudite, still stands.

A psion DOES have the ability to change all of their abilities, almost at will, with psychic reformation. It requires 10 minutes, but that is what a wizard would spend filling a spell slot he had left blank. And the ability to reselect feats makes it one of the most versatile abilities around.

Also, if a sorcerer gets access to that, he becomes an absolute instant t1.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A psion DOES have the ability to change all of their abilities, almost at will, with psychic reformation. It requires 10 minutes, but that is what a wizard would spend filling a spell slot he had left blank. And the ability to reselect feats makes it one of the most versatile abilities around.

Also, if a sorcerer gets access to that, he becomes an absolute instant t1.You can cheat around the 10 minute manifesting time via the Linked Power feat. One round to change all your feats, skills, and powers to whatever you want? I'd hit that.

[Calthropstu]

You can cheat around the 10 minute manifesting time via the Linked Power feat. One round to change all your feats, skills, and powers to whatever you want? I'd hit that.

That arguably makes all t2 classes immediate t1, since the argument making t2 a t2 is that they can't prep like a t1.

[Dr.Zero]

You can cheat around the 10 minute manifesting time via the Linked Power feat. One round to change all your feats, skills, and powers to whatever you want? I'd hit that.

Hmmm. Leaving aside RAI, I think it cannot work this way not even by RAW.


The power that is manifested in this round is not altered in any way, nor is the linked power that goes off in the next round--however, you do not need to spend any of your actions or power points next round to manifest the linked power.

So, not altered in any way (the manifesting time remains 10 minutes) and at the most you don't need to spend an action in the next round. No one says anything about the other 99 rounds. :smallbiggrin:

(Not that this really changes anything, because I won't allow it, anyway :smallbiggrin:).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hmmm. Leaving aside RAI, I think it cannot work this way not even by RAW.

So, not altered in any way (the manifesting time remains 10 minutes) and at the most you don't need to spend an action in the next round. No one says anything about the other 99 rounds. :smallbiggrin:

(Not that this really changes anything, because I won't allow it, anyway :smallbiggrin:).It also says that the second power goes off next round. Specific vs general.

[Name1]

I'd say this would be valid, but we'd still be talking about powers, things vastly inferior to spells. He can shuffle all he wants, and Gate, Ice Assassin, Planar Binding and all the other things that make spellcasters so great will STILL be out of their reach. If it were just about how many powers they gain access to, we'd have to call them T1 simply on the grounds of having Psychic Chirurgery. And if it's only about spontaneously casting from a list, quality be damned, well... Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer... welcome to T1.

If it comes to reshuffeling feats, well, depending on how optimized you are/how many feats you have, Dark Chaos Shuffle does the same thing, but better because it lacks the "The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting (skills and) feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify (or take crossclass skills as class skills)"-line of Psychic Reformation IIRC.

Skill Ranks... Ok, I guess if you really need to get a feat retroactively for which you need these skill ranks, I guess it's a valid choice. For the simple purpose of gaining a character level +3 bonus on a skill roll... it's not worth any sort of XP, and a spellcaster can still do it better.

I mean, I totally agree: If a Sorcerer would get that (or cast like a Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer...) he'd definitely be T1. However... a Beguiler, just because he knows his entire list... is just not T1 and the same applies for a Psion.

There are a lot of spells, well over 4500, compared to a few powers. Even if we say that cases like Psionic Dominate exist, it just doesn't add up.
Of course, that is not to say a Psion is as bad as a Beguiler, a Psion DOES have a better spell list than a Beguiler, absolutely, but he's far from a Wizards power.

The Tier 1 definition IIRC is: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Can a Psion truly do "everything"? And better than classes that specialize in it? I doubt that. If a Wizard wants something, he casts Planar Binding and get's it. I don't think a Psion can do something that compares to it. Wizard wants someone dead? He'll send one or two Ice Assassins and consider the problem solved. A Psion doesn't get it that easy.

The Tier 2 definition is where I see the Psion: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Psions are powerful, and Psions can break a campaign in half... but they don't chain-gate solars and they don't Ice Assassin the gods. They are just a tad lower than them. Not MUCH lower, but lower.

[AnachroNinja]

I like the guys saying "omg 17D6 damage!" Without noting that a sorcerer of that level with little optimization can be throwing around double that with far less resource use.

[Calthropstu]

I like the guys saying "omg 17D6 damage!" Without noting that a sorcerer of that level with little optimization can be throwing around double that with far less resource use.

17d6?
Pffft, try 360d6

edit: requires a LOT of prep time, and a maxed out metamind prestige.

[Name1]

17d6?
Pffft, try 360d6

edit: requires a LOT of prep time, and a maxed out metamind prestige.

The same damage a Sorcerer could deal... (requires Arcane Thesis: Delayed Blast Fireball, Invisible Spell and Empower Spell)
Coincidence? I think not! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRWbIoIR04c)

[Calthropstu]

The same damage a Sorcerer could deal... (requires Arcane Thesis: Delayed Blast Fireball, Invisible Spell and Empower Spell)
Coincidence? I think not! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRWbIoIR04c)

My method involved casting many many astral constructs and giving them energy bolt.
Then jumping into the lair of a red dragon. We did something to it that made it take double damage, and hit it with 46 8d6 energy bolts.
The damage was just shy of 5k.

Edit, with pathfinder, there is a way to make astral constructs last 2 days...

Which means, with some serious cheese, you can blast out a limitless supply of these and smash just about anything.