Balance of Bladesinger Tweak?

[rudy]

I have a player considering a Bladesinger, but asked if I would consider replacing the 6th level ability with something else, because she doesn't expect to really use Extra Attack, given melee cantrips and such. It just doesn't synergize well with Bladesong.

Fair enough; I'm generally willing to tweak abilities my players don't use, or that seem subpar. Maybe this is unwise, but that's the way I run.

The ability I'm considering replacing it with essentially boils down to: "When you miss with a melee spell attack, or a melee weapon attack which is part of casting a spell, you may roll again. You may do this a number of times per short rest equal to your Intelligence modifier, but no more than once per turn."

Flavorful, because it emphasizes the "blade" part of bladesong, so that they are not just spellcasters with a sword in their hand. I'm not sure if it is "too powerful", though, so would be interested in thoughts or opinions on the matter.

Also interested in hearing if any other GMs are generally willing to "trade out" abilities when players ask.

[Giant2005]

I'm not one to condone trading out abilities - it results in a power increase near 100% of the time.
However it seems that you know what you are getting into, so I'd be willing to say that the proposed change is restrained enough for your needs.

[MrStabby]

I'm not one to condone trading out abilities - it results in a power increase near 100% of the time.
However it seems that you know what you are getting into, so I'd be willing to say that the proposed change is restrained enough for your needs.

Hmm. I am kind of the opposite - very happy for players to trade out abilities for thematic reasons.

In this case though it looks like a power increase. The level six ability is not really a significant power increase for a bladesinger, precisely because they have so little reason to use the attack action. Whilst it could be debated that having a weak level is poor design, the replacement of a weak ability with one that will see a lot of use is going to be power creep. I don't think that either the Wizard class or the SCAG cantrips are sufficiently weak that they need a power boost.

[rudy]

I'm not one to condone trading out abilities - it results in a power increase near 100% of the time.
However it seems that you know what you are getting into, so I'd be willing to say that the proposed change is restrained enough for your needs.
Thanks for the input.


Hmm. I am kind of the opposite - very happy for players to trade out abilities for thematic reasons.

In this case though it looks like a power increase. The level six ability is not really a significant power increase for a bladesinger, precisely because they have so little reason to use the attack action. Whilst it could be debated that having a weak level is poor design, the replacement of a weak ability with one that will see a lot of use is going to be power creep. I don't think that either the Wizard class or the SCAG cantrips are sufficiently weak that they need a power boost.
I understand what you're saying, but "power creep" is not, to me, a reason to avoid making changes for specific players. I agree that it's a very good reason to avoid altering the classes permanently as part of some house rule system, but in a specific case, I'd much rather players feel rewarded when they get a new ability than feel "Oh, great; an ability I'll never use." Telling them that the wizard is powerful enough is cold comfort in that scenario, and doesn't really help increase fun. In my experience.

I'm not set on the specific ability change I suggest, but I'm also not going to keep a quasi-useless ability in there.

[CaptAl]

It feels like a more limited version of portent that can be used more often. It probably needs play testing to figure out how much more powerful than a simple extra attack this ability is. My gut says that having it refresh on a short rest is too much for what is effectively advantage plus. Maybe try it at twice per short rest, to match the number of bladesongs. Or Int mod times /long rest. It's easy to start it out at less often and buff it than to nerf a players new toy if it turns out too powerful.

Personally, I don't really like extra attack on a Bladesinger either. War Magic (Cantrip plus one attack as a bonus action) feels more like a Bladesinger ability to me.

The game's about having fun. So, as a DM, swapping out abilities that make the game more fun is part and parcel to the game.

[rudy]

My gut says that having it refresh on a short rest is too much for what is effectively advantage plus. Maybe try it at twice per short rest, to match the number of bladesongs.
Ooo... that's classy! I think I'll actually go with "Once per use of bladesong" to start. Thanks for the suggestion.

[CaptAl]

Ooo... that's classy! I think I'll actually go with "Once per use of bladesong" to start. Thanks for the suggestion.

Glad to help. :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm well on record as despising the Bladesinger design, and I absolutely believe that you should tweak things to fit your table. Extra Attack is a poor ability indeed, for exactly the reasons you describe; trading it out for War Magic is a major thematic advantage-- and really, not that big a power boost, as the Bladesinger's main power boost is the whole Int-to-AC bit. Overall, then, I'd recommend trading Extra Attack for War Magic (power boost) and downgrading the Int-to-AC to a Swashbuckler-style "don't provoke AoOs from targets you attack in melee" and/or a Cunning Action style "Dash or Disengage as a bonus action." That means you have to rely on darting around the battlefield like an actual agile combatant, rather than standing and slugging it out like a big stupid fighter.

[Giant2005]

What if you kept the Extra Attack feature at level 6, but gave it a secondary ability just to make the level feel less harsh.
Something relatively minor like your weapon always counts as magical, or you can use a bonus action to cause your weapon to glow for 30' or something.

[ad_hoc]

The ability I'm considering replacing it with essentially boils down to: "When you miss with a melee spell attack, or a melee weapon attack which is part of casting a spell, you may roll again. You may do this a number of times per short rest equal to your Intelligence modifier, but no more than once per turn."

This is far too powerful.

I think the extra attack feature is weak on purpose. Valor Bards also get it.

Their cantrips already increase in power at 5th level.

Bladesingers should be weaker when making attacks than Eldritch Knights. They still get full casting.

If you want to make them stronger then as suggested War Magic (bonus action attack when using action for Cantrip) would be the way to go. There needs to be a trade off as well though.

To recap, yes at level 6 they don't get a great ability. But at levels 5 and 7 they get 3rd and 4th level spells which are huge boosts in power.

[rudy]

If you want to make them stronger then as suggested War Magic (bonus action attack when using action for Cantrip) would be the way to go.
Honestly, I think War Magic is much more powerful that what I'm suggesting, since that is something they could do without limit. Especially since I'm now re-vamping the ability, following a suggestion above, to be usable once per bladesong use; so a max of twice per short rest.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not opposed to adding War Magic and nerfing something else, I just don't see why that's automatically better than what I'm suggesting.


To recap, yes at level 6 they don't get a great ability. But at levels 5 and 7 they get 3rd and 4th level spells which are huge boosts in power.
And if a player of mine thought their 6th level ability from any other wizard school was terrible and they wouldn't use it, I would work with them as well.

[rudy]

Overall, then, I'd recommend trading Extra Attack for War Magic (power boost) and downgrading the Int-to-AC to a Swashbuckler-style "don't provoke AoOs from targets you attack in melee" and/or a Cunning Action style "Dash or Disengage as a bonus action." That means you have to rely on darting around the battlefield like an actual agile combatant, rather than standing and slugging it out like a big stupid fighter.
Been thinking about this since you posted. For a particular player, I think it is a good change when you can monitor it for abuse.

I think it would be a bad change to make to the class fundamentally, though, for the following reason: dipping. The change you suggest removes the need for high intelligence to receive most of the benefit of the Bladesong style, and I think would make it far too good of a two-level dip for a very large number of builds.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Been thinking about this since you posted. For a particular player, I think it is a good change when you can monitor it for abuse.

I think it would be a bad change to make to the class fundamentally, though, for the following reason: dipping. The change you suggest removes the need for high intelligence to receive most of the benefit of the Bladesong style, and I think would make it far too good of a two-level dip for a very large number of builds.
Honestly, I think the current form is much more conductive to dipping. The bonus to AC and Concentration checks is huge; even if you only have a modest Int that kind of bonus is really hard to come by. The options I proposed, on the other hand, are common as dirt-- Mobility or a Rogue dip are both easy options that can be used all day long, and the latter gives you probably more good stuff than two levels of Wizard.

[djreynolds]

At 14th level you can add intelligence and dex to your attack damage, that's +10 damage a swipe. And you have 2 attacks.

Bladesinger is very versatile, you can conserve spells and go melee when you want and short rest and recharge your bladesong.

A warlock can add charisma at 12th level.

A bladesinger at 10th can use his spell slots to eat up damage. Very powerful.

So when you want to conserve spells, you have two attacks.

And you have a full spellbook.

[thebiglost1]

At 14th level you can add intelligence and dex to your attack damage, that's +10 damage a swipe. And you have 2 attacks.

Bladesinger is very versatile, you can conserve spells and go melee when you want and short rest and recharge your bladesong.

A warlock can add charisma at 12th level.

A bladesinger at 10th can use his spell slots to eat up damage. Very powerful.

So when you want to conserve spells, you have two attacks.

And you have a full spellbook.
Conserving spells is irrelevant when what is being weighed are cantrips.

With that being said I think the ability is fine as is. It allows a little bit of wiggle room in times of uncertainly about monster magical defenses and allows a little more chance of at will damage potential in the event of a high AC monster.

3 attacks vs 1 melee spell attack [assuming TWF] will majority of the time lead to more damage.

This is assuming that the player isn't casting every slot they have to remain hasted to get cantrip/ MH/OH attacks

[DracoKnight]

For what it's worth, the bladesingers in my games don't use Extra attack either. Instead my group has ruled that they get War Magic, like the Eldritch Knight. I hope this helps :smallsmile:

[MrStabby]

For what it's worth, the bladesingers in my games don't use Extra attack either. Instead my group has ruled that they get War Magic, like the Eldritch Knight. I hope this helps :smallsmile:

I would guess that since you introduced this rule that more players at your table have played the bladesinger than have played each other Wizard Archetype?

[D.U.P.A.]

War magic is way more powerful compared to extra attack, rightfully so, because it belongs to a weaker class, Fighter, who has this ability ALONG extra attack, so he has to choose. Choice is even harder when he gets 3rd attack. Bladesinger has no such issues. These weapon attack cantrips are already at par with these extra attack-ish abilities, combined with war magic are basically superior, even for the Eldritch knight. 2d8+mod (with rider) + 1d8+mod which is way better than that 1d8+mod + 1d8+mod in case both attacks hit. But extra attack is not bad, is still clearly better choice than cantrips except for very high levels. With extra attack even using longbow is more effective than using cantrips at least until 11th levels if not more (considering playing elves because the class is restricted). Also Bladesinger has still some weapon buffing spells like Magic weapon which can improve his weapon attacks.

[Citan]

I have a player considering a Bladesinger, but asked if I would consider replacing the 6th level ability with something else, because she doesn't expect to really use Extra Attack, given melee cantrips and such. It just doesn't synergize well with Bladesong.

Fair enough; I'm generally willing to tweak abilities my players don't use, or that seem subpar. Maybe this is unwise, but that's the way I run.

The ability I'm considering replacing it with essentially boils down to: "When you miss with a melee spell attack, or a melee weapon attack which is part of casting a spell, you may roll again. You may do this a number of times per short rest equal to your Intelligence modifier, but no more than once per turn."

Flavorful, because it emphasizes the "blade" part of bladesong, so that they are not just spellcasters with a sword in their hand. I'm not sure if it is "too powerful", though, so would be interested in thoughts or opinions on the matter.

Also interested in hearing if any other GMs are generally willing to "trade out" abilities when players ask.
Hi!

First, I don't really understand the whole "Extra Attack is pointless" thing I saw in the thread. It's basically the same as Warlock: you get Extra Attacks and +INT to damage, for a dual-wield build (encouraged because Bladesong) it's a fair sustained damage (and just a Fighter dip can make it greater). Sure, weapon cantrips outpower Extra Attack at some levels, and ultimately, but you then don't get bonus action attack. So you have to rely on spells such as Flaming Sphere if you want to increase damage, but there are so many good concentration spells that it's a tough choice.
Meanwhile, a Bladesinger using Extra Attack can make 3 attacks per turn consistently while keeping concentration on something else entirely (Polymorph, Fly, Haste, Conjure, etc). And considering that there are so many good cantrips you would want to know as a Wizard, you can thanks to this bypass weapon cantrips to instead take Shocking Grasp, Light, Ray of Frost, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Create Bonfire... While still being reasonably good at dealing sustained damage. After all a Wizard is not expected to deal that much mundane damage in the first place. :)

Anyways, considering your specific situation, I'd say that your idea is great, but you should either make it INT mod per long rest, or 2/short rest (to harmonize with Bladesong).
Another option would have been a "reversed" War Magic variant but your player don't intend to rely on Attack anyways.

So with the small suggested tweak, your idea is fine imo.
In case your player isn't much interested because he prefers power to reliability, you could also propose "cantrip as bonus action" 1/short rest, for a small nova feeling.

[djreynolds]

The idea is just fine, I think it is great. Its your game

I like the bladesinger archetype just fine. It is cool and flavorful, and in CoS it was nice that wizard could use that sun sword

I get that you can't always use the extra attack, and I get it that it sucks... but that's the game

Will you always use the extra attack, no. But you are getting so many other perks from bladesong, to extra melee damage, to using spell slots to cover damage, and full casting progression. And at 18th level & 19th level your signature spells.

Also this tweak, "When you miss with a melee spell attack, or a melee weapon attack which is part of casting a spell, you may roll again. You may do this a number of times per short rest equal to your Intelligence modifier, but no more than once per turn."

Will be totally abused by a bladesinger rogue, who is riding his sneak attack on BB or GFB, I'm already wanting this for my rogue

And its short rest dependent, lucky is 3 times a long rest, and then players will take bladesinger to 6th and grab EK or take blade singer to 14th and grab 6 of paladin, that's nice, or EK.

I love the idea and tweak, your players will abuse it.

[Laughingdagger]

Hi!

First, I don't really understand the whole "Extra Attack is pointless" thing I saw in the thread. It's basically the same as Warlock: you get Extra Attacks and +INT to damage, for a dual-wield build (encouraged because Bladesong) it's a fair sustained damage (and just a Fighter dip can make it greater). Sure, weapon cantrips outpower Extra Attack at some levels, and ultimately, but you then don't get bonus action attack. So you have to rely on spells such as Flaming Sphere if you want to increase damage, but there are so many good concentration spells that it's a tough choice.
Meanwhile, a Bladesinger using Extra Attack can make 3 attacks per turn consistently while keeping concentration on something else entirely (Polymorph, Fly, Haste, Conjure, etc). And considering that there are so many good cantrips you would want to know as a Wizard, you can thanks to this bypass weapon cantrips to instead take Shocking Grasp, Light, Ray of Frost, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Create Bonfire... While still being reasonably good at dealing sustained damage. After all a Wizard is not expected to deal that much mundane damage in the first place. :)

Anyways, considering your specific situation, I'd say that your idea is great, but you should either make it INT mod per long rest, or 2/short rest (to harmonize with Bladesong).
Another option would have been a "reversed" War Magic variant but your player don't intend to rely on Attack anyways.

So with the small suggested tweak, your idea is fine imo.
In case your player isn't much interested because he prefers power to reliability, you could also propose "cantrip as bonus action" 1/short rest, for a small nova feeling.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how bladesong encourages TWF? It specifically says you must be wielding a one handed weapon and have a free off-hand.

EDIT: Apparently I'm wrong, bladesong has no such restrictions, wtf?

5E's bladesinger is so weird now :/

[Citan]

I'm sorry, I don't understand how bladesong encourages TWF? It specifically says you must be wielding a one handed weapon and have a free off-hand.
Well, maybe it's me ^^, but I really don't see where it should be forbidden.
Quoting the related part...

BLADESONG
Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus. You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon.

If they really wanted you to always have a free-hand, they would have said something like "provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor and keep one of your hands free" or "provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor and wield nothing in your off-hand".

And it's fairly logical that they didn't, because you could want to wield a weapon in one hand and a focus in the other.

Also, the last part, "if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon" clearly refers to making ONE attack with both hands combined, so it clearly targets any two-handed weapons, as well as versatile weapons that you would use as two-handed weapons.

Hence, the use of a quarterstaff (one-handed), as well as dual-wielding, is authorized. :)

[rudy]

Honestly, I think the current form is much more conductive to dipping. The bonus to AC and Concentration checks is huge; even if you only have a modest Int that kind of bonus is really hard to come by. The options I proposed, on the other hand, are common as dirt-- Mobility or a Rogue dip are both easy options that can be used all day long, and the latter gives you probably more good stuff than two levels of Wizard.
After playing around with it, I think I may reduce the +INT to AC to +INT to AC against opportunity attacks only, and then upgrade the 6th level ability to War Magic. As you suggest, this will force them to be an agile fighter, as opposed to trying to tank.

[Laughingdagger]

Well, maybe it's me ^^, but I really don't see where it should be forbidden.
Quoting the related part...

If they really wanted you to always have a free-hand, they would have said something like "provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor and keep one of your hands free" or "provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor and wield nothing in your off-hand".

And it's fairly logical that they didn't, because you could want to wield a weapon in one hand and a focus in the other.

Also, the last part, "if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon" clearly refers to making ONE attack with both hands combined, so it clearly targets any two-handed weapons, as well as versatile weapons that you would use as two-handed weapons.

Hence, the use of a quarterstaff (one-handed), as well as dual-wielding, is authorized. :)

Went and looked at my SCAG, you CAN dual wield as a bladesinger, which just screams "not-bladesinger" to me, I don't know.

Does anyone else feel that the bladesinger is a weirdly built tradition? I didn't play one in anything before 4e, but the 4e bladesinger was one of my favourites for its battlefield control and cool synergy with attacking.

I feel like the 5e iteration WANTS you to avoid melee, despite having bladesong's bonuses to defense, song of victory, extra attack, etc. The only synergy with melee is the int-to dmg at level 14, you don't get any unique way of casting spells, your spells are not augmented in any way by attacking, your attacks are not augmented by your spellcasting.


It might just be me, I don't know.

[rudy]

It might just be me, I don't know.

It's not just you. It's a tradition that is best used by a wizard who just casts spells with a sword in their hand, using the extra defenses, as opposed to one who actually engages in combat.

[Citan]

Went and looked at my SCAG, you CAN dual wield as a bladesinger, which just screams "not-bladesinger" to me, I don't know.

Does anyone else feel that the bladesinger is a weirdly built tradition? I didn't play one in anything before 4e, but the 4e bladesinger was one of my favourites for its battlefield control and cool synergy with attacking.

I feel like the 5e iteration WANTS you to avoid melee, despite having bladesong's bonuses to defense, song of victory, extra attack, etc. The only synergy with melee is the int-to dmg at level 14, you don't get any unique way of casting spells, your spells are not augmented in any way by attacking, your attacks are not augmented by your spellcasting.


It might just be me, I don't know.
It might just be you, I don't know. ;)

It's not just you. It's a tradition that is best used by a wizard who just casts spells with a sword in their hand, using the extra defenses, as opposed to one who actually engages in combat.
Well, I don't know why you both would say that.

Everything screams "magic-empowered melee fighter" at me, from the Extra Attack to the +INT on melee weapon attacks, along with melee weapon attack cantrips and use of slots to absorb damage, as well as +INT to concentration saves because you are more susceptible to get hit in the frontline...
And I don't know why it would actually be a bad idea too.

Considering that it's very similar to the Warlock as far as melee weapon attacks go, but you also get many more spell options to play with (including Haste or Slow), better AC and better concentration, I don't see how it could work for a Bladelock but not for a Bladesinger...

[Laughingdagger]

It's not just you. It's a tradition that is best used by a wizard who just casts spells with a sword in their hand, using the extra defenses, as opposed to one who actually engages in combat.

Seems more like a bard, doing cool performing tricks while casting spells without actually engaging.

War magic seems like a way more bladesinger thematic 6th level feature than extra attack, and EK's should get something different than war magic since it requires you to prioritize INT for those saving throw spells, when it clearly just wants to be a magical fighter, and not a fighting wizard.


Well, I don't know why you would say that. Everything screams "magic-empowered melee fighter" at me, from the Extra Attack to the +INT on melee weapon attacks, along with melee weapon attack cantrips and use of slots to absorb damage...
And I don't know why it would actually be a bad idea too. Considering the similarity with Warlock as far as melee attacks go, but you also get many more spell options to play with (including Haste or Slow), I don't see how it could work for a Bladelock but not for a Bladesinger...

My issue with it is that a lot of its "features" conflict or contradict eachother or seem to just be bandaids from other classes. Bladesinging is elf only, elves are a dex race, bladesinging is longsword traditionally which elves get proficiency with, longsword is NOT finesse, scag cantrips and extra attack both fill the same role roughly yet fight eachother in a way that not knowing which is more powerful through math will lead you to deal sub-optimal damage at varying leveling checkpoints, your spells and attacking don't synergize with eachother, they just exists side-by-side.

Basically what I'm saying is I feel like the bladesinger in 5e is too much of a wizard that can sort of fight, and not enough of a synergistic hybrid-magical-melee where your attacks/spells affect the other in cool ways or with cool effects.

I have roughly the same concerns with bladelocks too. Them and bladesingers are perhaps my favourite, and that's why I'm so conflicted about them.

EDIT: I would probably have been more pleased if bladesinging wasn't just a wizard tradition, but a half-casting melee hybrid.

[Citan]

Seems more like a bard, doing cool performing tricks while casting spells without actually engaging.

War magic seems like a way more bladesinger thematic 6th level feature than extra attack, and EK's should get something different than war magic since it requires you to prioritize INT for those saving throw spells, when it clearly just wants to be a magical fighter, and not a fighting wizard.
I agree with the bolded part, although I find this less true now that there are weapon cantrips (I guess it was just a consolation prize for the Fighter that just has to use a cantrip this turn for whatever reason).

But not so much with the first paragraph.
A Bladesinger with maxed 18+ DEX, 18+ INT and Resilient:Constitution buffed with Haste and Mirror Image (well, that is optimal condition, no argue here you won't always have time to prepare) seems a pretty nasty opponent to me. And depending on your starting stats, you may have some space for Mobile/Mage Slayer/Warcaster/Polearm Master that gears you towards a nice specialization. :)

And the Bladesinger is still a full Wizard, with free 1st and 2nd spells.
While there are many great spells in general for this feature, for Bladesinger, Shield + Mirror Image (if constant bonus attack) or Flaming Sphere seems a pretty good end combination.

[Laughingdagger]

I agree with the bolded part, although I find this less true now that there are weapon cantrips (I guess it was just a consolation prize for the Fighter that just has to use a cantrip this turn for whatever reason).

But not so much with the first paragraph.
A Bladesinger with maxed 18+ DEX, 18+ INT and Resilient:Constitution buffed with Haste and Mirror Image (well, that is optimal condition, no argue here you won't always have time to prepare) seems a pretty nasty opponent to me. And depending on your starting stats, you may have some space for Mobile/Mage Slayer/Warcaster/Polearm Master that gears you towards a nice specialization. :)

And the Bladesinger is still a full Wizard, with free 1st and 2nd spells.
While there are many great spells in general for this feature, for Bladesinger, Shield + Mirror Image (if constant bonus attack) or Flaming Sphere seems a pretty good end combination.

All great points, and I think in the vein they wanted for the bladesinger (a full wizard that can do fighty things) it's totally fine. Spellcasting and combat proficiency together are great, they just don't interact with each other enough in my mind.

However, my feelings are probably just bitter that the bladesinger I loved is gone, and all of its attack/magic synergy with it.

[Citan]

All great points, and I think in the vein they wanted for the bladesinger (a full wizard that can do fighty things) it's totally fine. Spellcasting and combat proficiency together are great, they just don't interact with each other enough in my mind.

However, my feelings are probably just bitter that the bladesinger I loved is gone, and all of its attack/magic synergy with it.
Well, you could make your own though (or if you'd like, I can give you a preview of a custom class which intends to mix weapon and magic more tightly -not a true caster though-). :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Also I saw your edit of previous post just now. I understand much better "where you come from". You're particularly on-point imo in the weapon cantrips / Extra Attack apparent redundancy, although as I tried to explain they can each have their own place. For someone who picks one though, Extra Attack is a dead weight in the end, that's for sure.
Also, I tend to forget everytime that they DID put a racial requirement after all, and getting proficiency with a non-finesse weapon for a subclass that cries out "DEX FTW" is disturbing indeed.
Very good points overall. ;)

[Alejandro]

It's rare of course, but I've seen a Bladesinger played taking advantage of Extra Attack, but they were a ranged attacks Bladesinger (hence the unusualness.)

[rudy]

It's rare of course, but I've seen a Bladesinger played taking advantage of Extra Attack, but they were a ranged attacks Bladesinger (hence the unusualness.)
How can you be a ranged attacks Bladesinger? o.O Using a bow takes two hands, and then your Bladesong is over.

[Citan]

How can you be a ranged attacks Bladesinger? o.O Using a bow takes two hands, and then your Bladesong is over.
I gather this player either picked the Weapon Master feat (yay, we actually, finally found one use for it o/) or dipping Fighter somewhere (or even starting as Fighter or Rogue for 1st level before definitely switching) to get proficiency with hand crossbow.

That, or coping with the use of carrying a bunch of daggers, or using darts/sling...
Both last being extremely disappointing in terms of image, if not of damage (dagger is fine, almost). :smallbiggrin:
A Wizard slinging around gives more the image of a desperate man that has no power left, than the image of someone who could burn you to a crisp but likes to make you realize you are just not worth the spell slot.

[Alejandro]

How can you be a ranged attacks Bladesinger? o.O Using a bow takes two hands, and then your Bladesong is over.

Not a bow, you use one handed throwing weapons. 'Bird' style in the Bladesinger listing describes this. I've seen it played :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not a bow, you use one handed throwing weapons. 'Bird' style in the Bladesinger listing describes this. I've seen it played :)
This. I mean, it's kind of painful, since you need Dual Wielder to draw daggers fast enough, but it doesn't mess with your Bladesong and you do get the bonus melee damage at high levels.

[Alejandro]

This. I mean, it's kind of painful, since you need Dual Wielder to draw daggers fast enough, but it doesn't mess with your Bladesong and you do get the bonus melee damage at high levels.

Yep. I make no claims as to its optimization value, but it's totally playable.

[DracoKnight]

I would guess that since you introduced this rule that more players at your table have played the bladesinger than have played each other Wizard Archetype?

No, actually. The popularity of the Arcane Traditions in my groups is as follows (most popular to least popular):

Diviner
Necromancer
Abjuration
Enchanter
Illusionist
Conjuration
Bladesinger
Evocation
Transmutation

Portent is just such an amazing ability that most of our group who wants to play a wizard is going to go Diviner. After that, playing a master of undead minions captures people's imaginations the most.

We've used this fix from the get-go, and we've seen 3 bladesingers (all played by me, because I love gishing). But yeah, so it gives them a nice boost (thematically and mechanically) without making them the obvious choice.