Wizard Supply store offers cash back bonus

[EyethatBinds]

So we've all bought diamond dust, right? And onyx gems worth 25gp per hit die of the target corpse too.

Well how big is such a gem? Doesn't it depend on the value of the purchase?

We at Wizardmart would like to introduce our new cash back rewards program. When you buy qualified material components, you'll receive a voucher for cash back up to 25% of the purchased material. You must come back seven days after purchase, or after casting the spell whichever is longer to receive the full reward.

Would this allow people to sell cheaper components (less valuable gems) and corner the material components market?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm...not sure what you're getting at here. Could you rephrase?

But regardless, gemstones are treated as gold for how they're bought and sold. You can use a 25,000 gp gem exactly like 25,000 gp (except you might not be able to get correct change in very small population centers -- like trying to use a $100 bill with the Girl Scout who comes to your door selling cookies*).





*Question: are Girl Scout Cookies made with real Girl Scouts? If not, we should really get on that false advertising claim.

[Deophaun]

I'm...not sure what you're getting at here. Could you rephrase?
Basically, he's talking about a scheme where you buy a 75 gp onyx for 100 gp, thus fulfilling the requirement to have 100 gp worth of onyx to raise a 4 HD creature, and then you get refunded the 25 gp after.

And the answer is no, because D&D doesn't really have an economy. It has a cardboard-cutout set of an economy. The values of everything is hardcoded: that's the "worth." The DM may then modify the buy and sale price based on whatever the DM thinks is justified, but that doesn't touch the "worth" as far as mechanics are concerned.

[nyjastul69]

Because one pays 1000 gp's for an item does mean that item is worth 1000 gp's. The game sets the value, not the player.

[Extra Anchovies]

Using the price paid for the component to determine if it meets the required value is preposterous. Your friend buys a small gem for 50 gp. You buy it from them for 10,000 gp. They give you the gem, and then, as a completely separate transaction, give you a gift of 10,000 gp. Is that gem, which was purchased by you for 10,000 gp, actually worth 10,000 gp? It definitely shouldn't be, because an answer of "yes" renders all spell-component costs negligible.


*Question: are Girl Scout Cookies made with real Girl Scouts? If not, we should really get on that false advertising claim.

Is the Orc Double Axe made out of real orcs?

[Segev]

As has been said, the gp value basis for gems and other items used as material components is a handy reference, a shorthand, a way to equate things on a surface level for ease of use by players.

They could have said "it takes 14 carats (about .1 oz) of ruby dust to cast forcecage," and then had a conversion rate that showed how many gp 14 carats of ruby dust was worth (about 1500) under "normal" circumstances.

Instead, they cut out the middle man and said "it takes 1500 gp worth of ruby dust to cast forcecage." But it assumes fair market value and that the market isn't distorted by something changing it from "Default."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There IS one way to make this work legally. If you have a high enough Craft skill, you can take a gem worth 1/3 the price you want it to end up being and use Craft (Gemcutting) to turn it into something worth 3x its original price.

So take a rough diamond worth 3,333.34 gp, and use, say, Craft (Gemcutting) with a high enough bonus to turn it into a finely-cut diamond worth 10,000.02 gp. Then you can run the scheme in the OP above, which is an entirely separate transaction from the cost of the sculpted diamond. It's going to be tough to get a Craft check that high, especially if you want to produce gems in a reasonable timeframe, though I suppose there's always the omniscificer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=663.msg3639#msg3639).


Is the Orc Double Axe made out of real orcs?And nun-Chucks should be made from real nuns, though I don't think Chuck Norris would be particularly amused at the result.

[FearlessGnome]

There IS one way to make this work legally. If you have a high enough Craft skill, you can take a gem worth 1/3 the price you want it to end up being and use Craft (Gemcutting) to turn it into something worth 3x its original price.

So take a rough diamond worth 3,333.34 gp, and use, say, Craft (Gemcutting) with a high enough bonus to turn it into a finely-cut diamond worth 10,000.02 gp. Then you can run the scheme in the OP above, which is an entirely separate transaction from the cost of the sculpted diamond. It's going to be tough to get a Craft check that high, especially if you want to produce gems in a reasonable timeframe, though I suppose there's always the omniscificer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=663.msg3639#msg3639).

This is interesting. By RAW I don't see anything stopping this, though most DMs probably wouldn't allow it. I know I would personally houserule that for material components it's the sheer quantity of diamond/ruby/whatever that has the listed price, not the post-crafting value-as-jewellery.

A clever trick though, for sure.

[Ashtagon]

Short answer: Cost != Worth

[BowStreetRunner]

Just as the cost indicated on the equipment tables is merely a base cost and can be modified up or down at the actual point of sale, the values mentioned for material components should be considered base values, regardless of the actual price at time of purchase. For a DM to rule otherwise is to invite shenanigans.

[EyethatBinds]

These are all fair points. I was probably thinking too much about a magic based economy, which means the normal rules of economics can go piss up a rope.

Allowing this would be like buying a diamond shard from a fellow party member for 25,000gp even though it cost him 50gp, then trying to use it for true resurrection. Just on a business scale.

[Segev]

There are three main factors in gem value: rarity, quality, and weight/size/quantity. Rarity is generally what creates the "base" value. The "carats" of a gem are literally a measure of weight, though we tend to think of it as size or quantity (especially "quantity" when dealing with things like "ruby dust"). Quality is a measure of the purity of the gem (how many flaws are in it, how many other minerals make interstices?), as well as the quality of the cut.

From a fluff standpoint, one could argue that it's quantity and quality that make for the magical properties required by spells. By this argument, a higher-quality cut gem, made more valuable by the gemcutter's craft, could genuinely be better for magic than the original, rough or poorly-cut gem, despite being smaller.

Ruby dust (or any other kind of dust) is pretty much going to have to be based on quantity, though if you wanted to be silly you could still argue that a craft roll lets you find "the best" grains to do the same effect with less (so if you're buying by weight...).

[Elkad]

...like trying to use a $100 bill with the Girl Scout who comes to your door selling cookies...

Now that's just nonsense. Whether I use $100s or $20s to buy a wheelbarrow full of Thin Mints seems kinda irrelevant.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Now that's just nonsense. Whether I use $100s or $20s to buy a wheelbarrow full of Thin Mints seems kinda irrelevant.How many little girls are there that you know who can give change for a $100 bill for a single box of macaroons? Likewise, how many thorps can give change for a 25,000 gp diamond when you're spending the night at the inn? That was the point I was making. Gemstones are directly convertible as gold, but there are some situations (like with the Girl Scout/$100 bill paradigm) where it doesn't quite work as well as actual gold.

[Deophaun]

How many little girls are there that you know who can give change for a $100 bill for a single box of macaroons?
There are people who buy single boxes?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There are people who buy single boxes?For the sake of this comparison, yes, even if it stretches versimilitude.

[Segev]

How many little girls are there that you know who can give change for a $100 bill for a single box of macaroons? Likewise, how many thorps can give change for a 25,000 gp diamond when you're spending the night at the inn? That was the point I was making. Gemstones are directly convertible as gold, but there are some situations (like with the Girl Scout/$100 bill paradigm) where it doesn't quite work as well as actual gold.


There are people who buy single boxes?


For the sake of this comparison, yes, even if it stretches versimilitude.

There's stretching verisimilitude - like asking us to believe that the moon is made of cheese, wizards could lose in fights against commoners, or politicians can be honest - and then there's the flat out impossible - like being able to put one over on the IRS, having "dry water," or buying "just one" box of cookies from the cookie mafia girl scouts.

[Elkad]

How many little girls are there that you know who can give change for a $100 bill for a single box of macaroons?

There are people who buy single boxes?
There are people who buy something other than Thin Mints?

[Deophaun]

There are people who buy something other than Thin Mints?
You need something to go in the middle of the thin mint sandwich. I mean, what do you propose? More thin mints?

Hey... wait a second...

[Flickerdart]

You need something to go in the middle of the thin mint sandwich. I mean, what do you propose? More thin mints?

Hey... wait a second...

Have you ever tried to use thin mints in a smore?

[Red Fel]

You need something to go in the middle of the thin mint sandwich. I mean, what do you propose? More thin mints?

Hey... wait a second...

https://res.cloudinary.com/jpress/image/fetch/https://www.wow247.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/ezgif-225274168.gif

[Segev]

https://res.cloudinary.com/jpress/image/fetch/https://www.wow247.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/ezgif-225274168.gif

Oreo sells thin mints around a mint creme, I believe.

[Deophaun]

Have you ever tried to use thin mints in a smore?
I imagine that such a thing would create a quantum singularity of flavor that would consume the planet in its delicious event horizon. It is not meant for man.

But screw the world, imma gonna try it!