How did Indy know to shut his eyes?

[Giggling Ghast]

In Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy saves himself and Marion from the spirits unleashed from the Ark by shutting their eyes. But how did Indy know to do that? Was it alluded to earlier in the film?

(Raiders was on TV, in case you're wondering why this question popped into my head.)

[Kitten Champion]

I haven't watched it in a while, but I assumed for that scene he was half drawing on biblical lore and half going with his intuition.

[Dienekes]

Indy knows his Bible passages. Without going too deeply for fear of getting my finger's slapped by the mods, people dying who open the Ark of God is a thing. I don't think it's mentioned in the movie, we're just supposed to take it that Indy knows what he's doing.

[GloatingSwine]

Indy knows his Bible passages. Without going too deeply for fear of getting my finger's slapped by the mods, people dying who open the Ark of God is a thing. I don't think it's mentioned in the movie, we're just supposed to take it that Indy knows what he's doing.

On the other hand, the Philistines had it for a while and the worst that happened to them was hemorrhoids and mice. Not combined though, that would almost have been as bad as the face melting.

[factotum]

There was actually additional dialogue with Imam (the chap who interpreted the headpiece of the Staff of Ra for Indy) which explained that--he told Indy and Sallah that touching the Ark will kill you, and looking at it when it's opened will also kill you. This dialogue was cut from the final movie for length.

(Source: http://theraider.net/films/raiders/deleted_scenes.php).

[nyjastul69]

In Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy saves himself and Marion from the spirits unleashed from the Ark by shutting their eyes. But how did Indy know to do that? Was it alluded to earlier in the film?

(Raiders was on TV, in case you're wondering why this question popped into my head.)

This isn't odd. Indy saves himself in sorts of silly ways across all the movies. The movie would be odd if it explained *how* Indy knew. He has plot immunity that need not be explained.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It all comes from Moses on Mount Sinai. He gets to see the host of Heaven in all its glory, but can only see the merest sliver of the back of God's heel. And even that much has him wearing a mask the rest of his life.

Mortals can't look too closely at the Works of God. We're not worthy.

[Murk]

There was actually additional dialogue with Imam (the chap who interpreted the headpiece of the Staff of Ra for Indy) which explained that--he told Indy and Sallah that touching the Ark will kill you, and looking at it when it's opened will also kill you. This dialogue was cut from the final movie for length.

(Source: http://theraider.net/films/raiders/deleted_scenes.php).

I didn't know that! That's cool.

I also believe Indy only started shouting "Close your eyes!" once there were actually flashes of light happening? Dunno, but it just seems like a "Ooooh this is not good but we can't move, so just close your eyes because we can't really do anything else" -kind of deal.

[GolemsVoice]

I always assumed that Indy, being a scholar of all kinds of mythical and religious lore, had at least an idea of what would be to come here. Just like he figured out which grail to take.

[Hopeless]

Remember the start of the movie when those military guys came to ask Indy about his former mentor thinking he was working for the Nazis?

Indy pulled open what looked like a Bible where it showed the Jewish people carrying the ark before them the claim about an army carrying the Ark before them would be invincible was apparently the reason the Nazi's were interested in it.
The picture seen in the movie depicted a light striking down non-believers, Indy saw the light manifesting and thought,"I do NOT want to see what happens next!"
Who knew he was right!!!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I always assumed that Indy, being a scholar of all kinds of mythical and religious lore, had at least an idea of what would be to come here. Just like he figured out which grail to take.
This is what a successful Knowledge (Religion) check gets you.

[Ramza00]

{scrubbed}

[GloatingSwine]

The Ark wasn't hidden all the time though, it was a processional ark that was eg. carried into battle. The Philistines stole it for a while at one point too.

{scrubbed}

[nyjastul69]

The Ark wasn't hidden all the time though, it was a processional ark that was eg. carried into battle. The Philistines stole it for a while at one point too.

{scrubbed}

There is no proof of any of this.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Don't forget forum rules, all...

[Giggling Ghast]

Yes, I know the subject matter lends itself to theological discussion, ladies and otherkin, but let's not go sashaying over that line.

I feel the question has been adequately answered. Thank you for your assorted responses.

[Cikomyr]

For the record, i dont remember what people said about the idea that Indi was of absolutely no consequence on the movie's plot?

[Kitten Champion]

For the record, i dont remember what people said about the idea that Indi was of absolutely no consequence on the movie's plot?

They did a bit on it in Big Bang Theory (https://youtu.be/cfUUGrSMmxI?t=1m15s).

[Rodin]

For the record, i dont remember what people said about the idea that Indi was of absolutely no consequence on the movie's plot?

He certainly had plenty of consequence. What has been said is that Indy had a negative effect on history by doing so. The original plan for the Ark was to fly it to Berlin, so that Hitler could open it along with all his upper staff in attendance. Indy basically stopped the leadership of the Nazis from getting their faces melted off.

Whether or not this would have been a good thing would be a thing of historical debate, and would depend on exactly which top Nazis were present. I think WWII is recent enough to be verboten, though, so I'm not inclined to go into more detail.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Guys, please remember to be careful not to discuss real-world religion on these boards. I understand the movie in question makes the line difficult to find, but in general avoid referencing real-world religious texts, and err on the side of caution if in doubt. Thank you.

[GloatingSwine]

There is no proof of any of this.

As far as the canon of the Indiana Jones trilogy goes there evidently is because it happened again. The Nazis having the ark didn't produce immediate consequences, it was when they opened it that faces got melted.




* Yeah, I said trilogy. And frankly Temple of Doom is on notice too, there'll only be two soon.

[Brother Oni]

They did a bit on it in Big Bang Theory (https://youtu.be/cfUUGrSMmxI?t=1m15s).

What Amy missed was that the Nazis were digging in the wrong place. Given that they had been digging for months already and from memory, they were a few hundred metres off, the plug may have been pulled on the excavation before the Ark was found for lack of results.

At the time Egypt was nominally British (although things changed in 1936 when Raiders took place), so the lead up to WW2 may have resulted in political pressure for the excavation to wind up and the military forces to be re-deployed (further speculation along these lines is also getting close to forum rules unfortunately).

[Kitten Champion]

What Amy missed was that the Nazis were digging in the wrong place. Given that they had been digging for months already and from memory, they were a few hundred metres off, the plug may have been pulled on the excavation before the Ark was found for lack of results.

They mention that later. He does have some minor effect on the story's events and the expediency of their progress, just nothing particularly beneficial from his character's standpoint.

[factotum]

What Amy missed was that the Nazis were digging in the wrong place. Given that they had been digging for months already and from memory, they were a few hundred metres off, the plug may have been pulled on the excavation before the Ark was found for lack of results.

The only reason they were digging in the wrong place was because Indy's interference meant they only had half of the inscription on the headpiece of the staff--the half that was burned into the Gestapo guy's hand. If Indy hadn't been around then they almost certainly would have got the entire headpiece (killing Marion along the way), dug in the right place, and got the Ark first time--and it would have been shipped off to Berlin as scheduled.

Of course, if they'd had the full inscription they would likely also have had the warnings against touching the Ark or looking at it while it was open, so it's entirely possible that Hitler and the others would *not* have had a melty face episode.

[nyjastul69]

As far as the canon of the Indiana Jones trilogy goes there evidently is because it happened again. The Nazis having the ark didn't produce immediate consequences, it was when they opened it that faces got melted.




* Yeah, I said trilogy. And frankly Temple of Doom is on notice too, there'll only be two soon.

That which I was questioning had nothing to do with an Indiana Jones film.

[GloatingSwine]

That which I was questioning had nothing to do with an Indiana Jones film.

Given that this thread is about an Indiana Jones film, no other contexts matter.

[Spiryt]

Indy knows his Bible passages. Without going too deeply for fear of getting my finger's slapped by the mods, people dying who open the Ark of God is a thing. I don't think it's mentioned in the movie, we're just supposed to take it that Indy knows what he's doing.

I would imagine that German Nazis, occultists etc. would know their passages just as well though....

They've essentially spend tons of time and resources on searching that goddamn biblical relic.

My take would be that it's simply one of those things one isn't supposed to think about while watching. :smallbiggrin:

[Frozen_Feet]

It's been a long time since I saw the movie, but I'm pretty sure there was a prominent painting of people carrying the ark to war, and the carriers were blindfolded.

[Rodin]

I would imagine that German Nazis, occultists etc. would know their passages just as well though....

They've essentially spend tons of time and resources on searching that goddamn biblical relic.

My take would be that it's simply one of those things one isn't supposed to think about while watching. :smallbiggrin:

A big theme of the movies (at least, the ones that matter, i.e. Raiders and Crusade) is that Indy has respect for the religious artifacts he's searching for while the Nazis don't. They don't care about the warnings - they're just interested in the power. Just look at Donovan and Elsa from Crusade - both also established as very accomplished archaeologists, both overcome by greed which overrode any caution they might have had.

I can't remember exactly, but I'm fairly sure that the plane that Indy blows up after he gets out of the tomb was a transport plane that was specifically going to fly the Ark to Berlin for Hitler to open in a big ceremony. They resorted to transporting it by truck after that, which is when Belloq finally gets his way and gets to open it ahead of time.

[nyjastul69]

Given that this thread is about an Indiana Jones film, no other contexts matter.

Did you actually read what I was replying to? If so, you understand. If not please keep your trap shut.

[Quild]

A big theme of the movies (at least, the ones that matter, i.e. Raiders and Crusade) is that Indy has respect for the religious artifacts he's searching for while the Nazis don't.
As an archeologist, Indiana Jones is barely better than a grave digger, except that he wants to put what he finds a museum rather than get profit from it.

Only in these two movies:
- He steals an idol from a temple because it would be better in a museum than in it's temple for those who believe in it.
- The arch ends in a warehouse.
- Coronado's cross ends in an US museum (rather than a church or Coronado's tomb or somewhere in Portugal)
- Indy would totally have stolen the Graal from his guardian if he could have.

[b_jonas]

If you want an answer, see How did Indy know to not look at the Ark? (http://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/7843/4918) on Sci Fi StackExchange for this same question.

[GloatingSwine]

Did you actually read what I was replying to? If so, you understand. If not please keep your trap shut.

Given that you were quoting me, there's reason to think I wrote what you were replying to.

Now, given that half of it has been removed for infringing on barred topics I can't explain it step by step for you, but you could at least attempt to be constructive.

[Ramza00]

As an archeologist, Indiana Jones is barely better than a grave digger, except that he wants to put what he finds a museum rather than get profit from it.

Only in these two movies:
- He steals an idol from a temple because it would be better in a museum than in it's temple for those who believe in it.
- The arch ends in a warehouse.
- Coronado's cross ends in an US museum (rather than a church or Coronado's tomb or somewhere in Portugal)
- Indy would totally have stolen the Graal from his guardian if he could have.

Indiana Jones was a grave digger, but wasn't the whole "archaeology" professions acted far more like grave diggers, or they paid off grave diggers while they worked in museums throughout the 1800s (aka when colonialism is in full force). Now the Indiana Jones movies were in the 1930s but one of the themes of the movies is the transition where Jones may do these movie quests but it was actually not his full time profession and he only really did them when the prize was that good or when the museum was willing to pay prior to him having any artifacts (aka fund his journey.)

-----

And grave robbing is still part of archaeology.

For example here is a new article of an Iraqi museum during / after the Iraq War of 2003 was paying smugglers to prevent ancient artifacts from leaving the country. This was because these same smugglers were selling artifacts around the world due to all the lawless of Iraq at the time.

One of the finds / purchases was Tablet V / 5 of the epic of gilgamesh. This archaeology find added 20 more lines to the poem of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

http://etc.ancient.eu/2015/09/24/giglamesh-enkidu-humbaba-cedar-forest-newest-discovered-tablet-v-epic/

[The Troubadour]

They did a bit on it in Big Bang Theory (https://youtu.be/cfUUGrSMmxI?t=1m15s).

More like " 'The Big Bang Theory' drew on something which many had already pointed out years before for its episode".

[Giggling Ghast]

It is technically true that without Indy's involvement, the plot of Raiders would have probably resolved itself.

But that's irrelevant. An adventure story doesn't absolutely require fulfillment of its goal to be a good narrative. I've read plenty of stories where a treasure-hunter finds the artifact they're seeking but can't recover it because it's too dangerous or they were misled as to its nature.

Roughly half of Conan the Barbarian's stories end that way, ie. Conan is as penniless as he started out because the treasure is cursed or whatever.

Without Indy's involvement, the plot of Raiders has the Nazis kill Marion, go on a relatively uneventful arachaeological dig, open the ark and all drop dead. Meanwhile, Dr. Jones teaches a history class. Not the most riveting of tales.

[Peelee]

As an archeologist, Indiana Jones is barely better than a grave digger, except that he wants to put what he finds a museum rather than get profit from it.

Only in these two movies:
- He steals an idol from a temple because it would be better in a museum than in it's temple for those who believe in it.


From an ancient temple with fully functional traps, including one apparently based on solar technology. The temple as a whole is worth vastly more than the golden idol he took, notwithstanding that Belloq ends up with it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

From an ancient temple with fully functional traps, including one apparently based on solar technology. The temple as a whole is worth vastly more than the golden idol he took, notwithstanding that Belloq ends up with it.

Stealing the idol also just reduces its value since context-less objects are worth less and harder to authenticate.

Unless the idol is magic and keeping it out of the hands of Belloq was the whole point of Indy grabbing it, but who knows because that sequence is all character introduction and has even less context than a stolen idol.

[Brother Oni]

The only reason they were digging in the wrong place was because Indy's interference meant they only had half of the inscription on the headpiece of the staff--the half that was burned into the Gestapo guy's hand. If Indy hadn't been around then they almost certainly would have got the entire headpiece (killing Marion along the way), dug in the right place, and got the Ark first time--and it would have been shipped off to Berlin as scheduled.

Of course, if they'd had the full inscription they would likely also have had the warnings against touching the Ark or looking at it while it was open, so it's entirely possible that Hitler and the others would *not* have had a melty face episode.

Hmm, true. Since this thread was a decent excuse to watch the movie again, something I noticed in the beginning - when Indy left to find Marion in Nepal, there was a close up of a shifty looking character stereotypically hiding behind a newspaper in the back of the first airplane.

Assuming Mr Spy Stereotype was a German following Indy to find Marion and hence the headpiece, it's more than likely that they wouldn't have found her on their own (1930s Nepal would have been REALLY out of the way). This would indicate that Indy was instrumental in both the Germans finding the Ark (they'd be forced to dig up the whole city otherwise) and preventing of the potential face melting of the German upper echelons (by intercepting the Ark before it got on that plane to Berlin).

It certainly gives a reason other than plot expediency of how Toht (Gestapo guy) turned up with a bunch of heavies less than 5 minutes after Indy left Marion's bar in the arse end of Nepal. :smalltongue:

[pendell]

On the other hand, the Philistines had it for a while and the worst that happened to them was hemorrhoids and mice. Not combined though, that would almost have been as bad as the face melting.

They didn't open it, they didn't touch it, and they didn't look inside it. Merely possessing the Ark was enough to bring all these bad things upon them. If you read the relevant passages, the Philistines later returned the Ark, and the Israelites are so thrilled they look inside it. BIG MISTAKE. Though face-melting is, sadly, absent from the text.

Absent the cut dialog, Indy's action is easily explainable by him being thoroughly familiar with the relevant texts.

Moderns have no comprehension of how central the Bible was to western education even as late as the 1920s, and we know from the shows that Indy went to school in the WW1 time frame. That was more than a decade before the Scopes Monkey trial, and chapel only ceased to be compulsory in C.S. Lewis' time. Thus, many of the famed atheists of the time -- Orwell, Shaw -- were far more religiously literate than their modern believing counterparts. Like it or not, it was drummed into them along with reading, writing, arithmetic, and Latin.

Here's a little vignette that illustrates this -- in 1940, during the evacuation of Dunkirk, the British army sent a three word message as the Germans were closing in: But if not (https://ilifejourney.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/but-if-not/).

This is obscure to modern readers, but the people of the time were familiar with the text the army was quoting, and knew it immediately as a cry of ultimate defiance in the face of overwhelming odds. They didn't need to look it up, or ask someone, or page through the books, to know what that verse was and what it meant; they knew all this by heart.

Remember that Raiders of the Lost Ark takes place in 1936. So even ordinary humans would be aware of these ideas -- I knew how Indy knew when I first saw the show in the 1980s, because I also was familiar with the story.

And if ordinary humans should know this, one would expect an archaeologist teaching at an Ivy league university would be even more so. The Middle East is where archaeology began, and the discipline was founded when Belzoni et al cracked into Egyptian tombs. So it is likely that Professor Jones was not only familiar with the stories from his general education, he may have studied them in depth in the original language as part of his postgrad.

So the wonder isn't that Indy and Marian knew not to look -- any plumber or stonemason of the time would have known that. The wonder is that the Nazis *didn't*.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

So the wonder isn't that Indy and Marian knew not to look -- any plumber or stonemason of the time would have known that. The wonder is that the Nazis *didn't*.

I doubt the question is one of knowledge, but rather whether they cared. besides from possibly Belloch, none of them had any particular respect for the Ark other than the fact that it was what they had been ordered to find.

[Knaight]

Indy knows his Bible passages. Without going too deeply for fear of getting my finger's slapped by the mods, people dying who open the Ark of God is a thing. I don't think it's mentioned in the movie, we're just supposed to take it that Indy knows what he's doing.

He kind of knows his passages - there was the whole thing where he almost dies because he forgets how to spell "Jehova", which is not exactly indicative of broad knowledge. That's pretty basic knowledge, and his misspelling was on par with the "Zykon" and "Xyklon" we see around here every so often.

[pendell]

He kind of knows his passages - there was the whole thing where he almost dies because he forgets how to spell "Jehova", which is not exactly indicative of broad knowledge. That's pretty basic knowledge, and his misspelling was on par with the "Zykon" and "Xyklon" we see around here every so often.



No no no no no -- he hadn't forgotten how to spell the name. He had forgotten that the puzzle he was trying to solve was written by Latin speakers, and in Latin the name begins with an I, not a J!

That's not forgetting his basic education, which would have started with a J. That's the point where you need to be a university professor -- to remember *on the spot* that you're dealing with a different language and to know how it is spelled in that other language. And I note he DID remember that it begins with an I after that initial mis-step.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

No no no no no -- he hadn't forgotten how to spell the name. He had forgotten that the puzzle he was trying to solve was written by Latin speakers, and in Latin the name begins with an I, not a J!

That's not forgetting his basic education, which would have started with a J. That's the point where you need to be a university professor -- to remember *on the spot* that you're dealing with a different language and to know how it is spelled in that other language. And I note he DID remember that it begins with an I after that initial mis-step.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Sort of. The vocalization in question only existed as "Yehowah" around the time of the Crusades; "Jehovah" (spelled as such) largely came from Protestant Bible translations in the 16th Century. That said, maybe Indy was just a little fuzzy on that part, or he had other things on the mind and made the slip.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, he had just seen his father get gut shot. That tends to distract, I've heard.

[Knaight]

No no no no no -- he hadn't forgotten how to spell the name. He had forgotten that the puzzle he was trying to solve was written by Latin speakers, and in Latin the name begins with an I, not a J!

That's not forgetting his basic education, which would have started with a J. That's the point where you need to be a university professor -- to remember *on the spot* that you're dealing with a different language and to know how it is spelled in that other language. And I note he DID remember that it begins with an I after that initial mis-step.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Apparently I remembered that scene wrong, as going from Y to J instead of J to I.

[2D8HP]

On the other hand, the Philistines had it for a while and the worst that happened to them was hemorrhoids and mice. Not combined though, that would almost have been as bad as the face melting.

:biggrin:

I have nothing to add to this scholarly erudite discussion beyond that was one hilarious post!

[Brother Oni]

I doubt the question is one of knowledge, but rather whether they cared. besides from possibly Belloch, none of them had any particular respect for the Ark other than the fact that it was what they had been ordered to find.

Indeed. On the island after the U-boat, Colonel Dietrich (the German officer) was unhappy about why they had to use a Jewish ritual before opening the Ark rather than opening it straight away, so while the Germans might have been aware of that they shouldn't look inside the Ark, their biases most likely caused them to ignore it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You also have to consider that a subplot of Raiders is Indy overcoming his cynicism about the more mystical and faith-based legends about the artifacts he uncovers (reason #512 why Temple of Doom makes no sense: it's a prequel and Indy takes all the inaccurate Hindu occultism at face value without question. Also he watched a guy get his heart magically pulled out without dying immediately). Anyway, Indy acknowledging the mystical aspects of the Ark and showing proper respect/fear for them was the resolution to this part of his character arc. He goes from:


I don't believe in magic, a lot of superstitious hocus pocus. I'm going after a find of incredible historical significance, you're talking about the boogie man.

to


Marion, don't look at it. Shut your eyes, Marion. Don't look at it, no matter what happens!

which to me signifies a big change in attitude toward the supernatural in general.

Then we get the whole arc over again with the ideals of adventure and a quest for knowledge instead of mysticism when we get to The Last Crusade.

[pendell]

You also have to consider that a subplot of Raiders is Indy overcoming his cynicism about the more mystical and faith-based legends about the artifacts he uncovers


Quite. As Quild pointed out above, at the start of the movie Indy's basic job is looting sacred sites of their artifacts. If he had any respect for the traditions of the people or respect for the dead, it's unlikely he'd have stayed with the job for long.

...

Of course, a quick note: Indy's archaeology doesn't bear much resemblance to real archaeology (https://www.quora.com/How-does-Indiana-Jones-job-differ-from-that-of-a-real-world-archaeological-job).

Back in my undergrad days, I was invited to go on an Archaeological expedition to the mountains of California. It was believed we would find Native American artifacts; what we found instead were a lot of old rusted cans and metal tools; not a Native site, but a CCC camp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps) from the 1930s.

Most of our day was spent carefully diagramming where all the artifacts were in relation to each other, as well as photographing them. Touching them was considered a very bad idea. The point was to learn, after all, not simply acquire souvenirs.

That's always the thing that bothered me most about the first Indy movie ; the fact that they just cracked into tombs and burial grounds. In fact, when you're entering a thousand-year-old tomb, the mere entrance of fresh air can cause scrolls and other things to disintegrate (http://www.bryair.com/article/the-importance-of-artifact-preservation-44). So any such operation requires a great deal of careful planning in the hopes that the very act of entering the tomb won't destroy 90% of the stuff you're interested in. That means noninvasive techniques, such as robotic probes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2013/09/30/robotic-snakes-sliver-their-way-into-ancient-archaeology/#a4966045fdfd).

I suspect that to 'real' archaeologists , the traps in the first temple would have been of greater interest than the golden idol, especially if they're still in working condition. After all, absent any context a golden idol in a museum is nothing but a trophy; while from a scientific point of view the traps would tell us a great deal about the state of Mayan engineering. We might even learn a few tricks ourselves , given that they were evidently still functional after hundreds of years.

So if you ask a "real" archaeologist about the Indy movies, they will first foam at the mouth about all the things the movies get wrong. They'll then go on to say they've seen them, oh, eight or nine times. And why not? It brings in students, and it makes their jobs seem cool. Who doesn't want to work in a cool job?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

Then we get the whole arc over again with the ideals of adventure and a quest for knowledge instead of mysticism when we get to The Last Crusade.

Last Crusade was all about Indy's relationship with his dad, though.

[Sapphire Guard]

Quite. As Quild pointed out above, at the start of the movie Indy's basic job is looting sacred sites of their artifacts. If he had any respect for the traditions of the people or respect for the dead, it's unlikely he'd have stayed with the job for long.

...

Of course, a quick note: Indy's archaeology doesn't bear much resemblance to real archaeology (https://www.quora.com/How-does-Indiana-Jones-job-differ-from-that-of-a-real-world-archaeological-job).

Back in my undergrad days, I was invited to go on an Archaeological expedition to the mountains of California. It was believed we would find Native American artifacts; what we found instead were a lot of old rusted cans and metal tools; not a Native site, but a CCC camp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps) from the 1930s.

Most of our day was spent carefully diagramming where all the artifacts were in relation to each other, as well as photographing them. Touching them was considered a very bad idea. The point was to learn, after all, not simply acquire souvenirs.

That's always the thing that bothered me most about the first Indy movie ; the fact that they just cracked into tombs and burial grounds. In fact, when you're entering a thousand-year-old tomb, the mere entrance of fresh air can cause scrolls and other things to disintegrate (http://www.bryair.com/article/the-importance-of-artifact-preservation-44). So any such operation requires a great deal of careful planning in the hopes that the very act of entering the tomb won't destroy 90% of the stuff you're interested in. That means noninvasive techniques, such as robotic probes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2013/09/30/robotic-snakes-sliver-their-way-into-ancient-archaeology/#a4966045fdfd).

I suspect that to 'real' archaeologists , the traps in the first temple would have been of greater interest than the golden idol, especially if they're still in working condition. After all, absent any context a golden idol in a museum is nothing but a trophy; while from a scientific point of view the traps would tell us a great deal about the state of Mayan engineering. We might even learn a few tricks ourselves , given that they were evidently still functional after hundreds of years.

So if you ask a "real" archaeologist about the Indy movies, they will first foam at the mouth about all the things the movies get wrong. They'll then go on to say they've seen them, oh, eight or nine times. And why not? It brings in students, and it makes their jobs seem cool. Who doesn't want to work in a cool job?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Were all those principles widely practiced in the 1930s? Even if they were, there's a certain amount of leeway when dealing with divine relics that explode people.

[Cikomyr]

Well, for a while, Archeology was just a veneer to add on top of tomb raiders

[Ramza00]

You also have to consider that a subplot of Raiders is Indy overcoming his cynicism about the more mystical and faith-based legends about the artifacts he uncovers (reason #512 why Temple of Doom makes no sense: it's a prequel and Indy takes all the inaccurate Hindu occultism at face value without question. Also he watched a guy get his heart magically pulled out without dying immediately). Anyway, Indy acknowledging the mystical aspects of the Ark and showing proper respect/fear for them was the resolution to this part of his character arc. He goes from:
Indy took the events of Temple of Doom as a bad trip over a 3 day weekend with a crazy blonde. It may have happened it may not, best just forget it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Last Crusade was all about Indy's relationship with his dad, though.

Of which Indy's relative cynicism ("X never marks the spot!") and Henry's childlike sense of adventure and love of a good quest are a major point of contention. In the end, Indy learns to believe in heroism or something, and Henry learns that maybe neglecting your only child over an obsessive pursuit leads to some bad blood when he's older.


Well, for a while, Archeology was just a veneer to add on top of tomb raiders

Yeah, this. The movies are obviously pulpy and sensationalized, but Indy's general attitude was pretty prevalent among the people we loosely refer to as archaeologists in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and only stopped 10 or so years after the events of the films when old-school colonialism imploded on itself.


Indy took the events of Temple of Doom as a bad trip over a 3 day weekend with a crazy blonde. It may have happened it may not, best just forget it.

Agreed. All in favor?

[Keltest]

Indy took the events of Temple of Doom as a bad trip over a 3 day weekend with a crazy blonde. It may have happened it may not, best just forget it.

I'm pretty sure Indie actually passed out from that poison he drank at the beginning. The antidote saved him, but he was messed up pretty bad because "antidotes" generally work best before exposure, so he had wild crazy dreams while he was recovering in a hospital from nearly being poisoned to death.

[factotum]

Were all those principles widely practiced in the 1930s?

Oh yes, archaeologists back then were always sending robotic probes into tombs so they didn't sully them, didn't you know? :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

Oh yes, archaeologists back then were always sending robotic probes into tombs so they didn't sully them, didn't you know? :smallwink:

I'm not saying it was aliens...

[Razade]

I'm not saying it was aliens...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/Tebryn_Cabal/lLxCoWM_zpspzbk9rua.jpg (http://s167.photobucket.com/user/Tebryn_Cabal/media/lLxCoWM_zpspzbk9rua.jpg.html)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yeah, this. The movies are obviously pulpy and sensationalized, but Indy's general attitude was pretty prevalent among the people we loosely refer to as archaeologists in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and only stopped 10 or so years after the events of the films when old-school colonialism imploded on itself.


Indy's attitude is still common among some modern Archaelogists (just look into debates that still go on about native American bones despite very clear laws that are decades old and most people agree are fair). Its his technique that's nonsense and was inaccurate from the 1890s onwards.

The whole pulp adventure style is based on early and mid 19th century adventure stories that were never really accurate. Even late 18th century gentlemen tomb robbers ("antiquarian" was the proper term) however took proper notes and just going in and stealing things would not be proper conduct for any educated man in the 19th century. The basic idea that you should be careful and catalogue everything was current throughout the 19th century, what developed was the precision of the techniques for doing so.

So basically, its fiction, duh.

[GiantBardo]

There was actually additional dialogue with Imam (the chap who interpreted the headpiece of the Staff of Ra for Indy) which explained that--he told Indy and Sallah that touching the Ark will kill you, and looking at it when it's opened will also kill you. This dialogue was cut from the final movie for length.

(.

My favorite movie ever and I didn't know that. Thanks!

[Wardog]

Of course, a quick note: Indy's archaeology doesn't bear much resemblance to real archaeology (https://www.quora.com/How-does-Indiana-Jones-job-differ-from-that-of-a-real-world-archaeological-job).

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you. Next you'll be telling me CSI doesn't accurately portray forensic investigations.



A big theme of the movies (at least, the ones that matter, i.e. Raiders and Crusade) is that Indy has respect for the religious artifacts he's searching for while the Nazis don't. They don't care about the warnings - they're just interested in the power. Just look at Donovan and Elsa from Crusade - both also established as very accomplished archaeologists, both overcome by greed which overrode any caution they might have had.
That also kind-of goes for Temple of Doom, too. Indy's mission is to return the magic stones to the village shrine, while the cultists just want them for... whatever power-md evil scheme they are engaged in (I can't remember the details).[/QUOTE]


As an archeologist, Indiana Jones is barely better than a grave digger, except that he wants to put what he finds a museum rather than get profit from it.

Only in these two movies:
- He steals an idol from a temple because it would be better in a museum than in it's temple for those who believe in it.
- The arch ends in a warehouse.
- Coronado's cross ends in an US museum (rather than a church or Coronado's tomb or somewhere in Portugal)
- Indy would totally have stolen the Graal from his guardian if he could have.



I always thought the temple was supposed to be abandoned and the idol no longer worshipped. I know that by modern standards, the idol should stay in the country it cam from, but it isn't as if he's breaking into a current place of worship and stealing something people there care about. Besides, if he hadn't done anything, it would probably still have ended up in the hands of the bad guy's private collection - and probably with more deaths in the process.
Not Indy's fault, and probably safer than many of the alternatives.
Wasn't it in the US to begin with? What's wrong with it going to an American museum? If someone finds Viking artefacts in England should they be repatriated to Danemark? Or if a Swedish viking site contains artefacts from Ireland, India and North Africa (http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-buddha/), should they all be sent back?
Possibly, but he only attempted to take it 1) when it was about to be lost, and 2) once the guardian was out of sight. I doubt he would have taken it fromundeer the guardian's nose, or if the guardian told him to put it back. (And not because the guardian could prevented him, because he was in no state to).




It is technically true that without Indy's involvement, the plot of Raiders would have probably resolved itself.

But that's irrelevant. An adventure story doesn't absolutely require fulfillment of its goal to be a good narrative. I've read plenty of stories where a treasure-hunter finds the artifact they're seeking but can't recover it because it's too dangerous or they were misled as to its nature.

Roughly half of Conan the Barbarian's stories end that way, ie. Conan is as penniless as he started out because the treasure is cursed or whatever.

Without Indy's involvement, the plot of Raiders has the Nazis kill Marion, go on a relatively uneventful arachaeological dig, open the ark and all drop dead. Meanwhile, Dr. Jones teaches a history class. Not the most riveting of tales.
This. The whole complaint about Indy's alleged lack of relevence seems to be based on the mistaken idea that a story needs to involve the protagonist having a major effect on the wider world, when all it really needs is for something interesting to happen to the people involved. (Besides, I think its probably best to keep super-weapons out of the hands of the Nazis, rather than let them have them in the hope they'll accidently kill Hitler with them. After all, even if they did accidently blow up Hitler, that would probably just result in Hydra getting hold of the Arc, and/or Stalin invading Western Europe with Tesla Coils and Mammoth Tanks).

[Avilan the Grey]

Im jumping ahead in this thread, so the question has already been asked, I'm sure but...
Why didn't Indy just stay home and let Hitler and the whole leadership Nazi Club melt?

After all, it is not a joke that Amy told Sheldon in BBT: Everything Indy does in the movie is pointless and if anything his actions actuall makes things worse.

[Keltest]

Im jumping ahead in this thread, so the question has already been asked, I'm sure but...
Why didn't Indy just stay home and let Hitler and the whole leadership Nazi Club melt?

After all, it is not a joke that Amy told Sheldon in BBT: Everything Indy does in the movie is pointless and if anything his actions actuall makes things worse.

Well, the obvious assumption is he didn't actually think it would melt them, and only changed his mind when the box started glowing and shooting lasers.

[Peelee]

Im jumping ahead in this thread, so the question has already been asked, I'm sure but...
Why didn't Indy just stay home and let Hitler and the whole leadership Nazi Club melt?

After all, it is not a joke that Amy told Sheldon in BBT: Everything Indy does in the movie is pointless and if anything his actions actuall makes things worse.

Well, not everything. Marion would have died, and then that whole C&C: Red Alert thing where the Soviets storm through Europe would have happened with the bulk of Europe being suddenly defenseless. Tesla towers everywhere, I tells ya!

[Bohandas]

Indy knows his Bible passages. Without going too deeply for fear of getting my finger's slapped by the mods, people dying who open the Ark of God is a thing. I don't think it's mentioned in the movie, we're just supposed to take it that Indy knows what he's doing.

Yeah, but the Book of Samuel seems to describe it cursing people in a very wide radius (entire cities; although admittedly most ancient cities would merely be mid to large sized towns to modern eyes), people who probably never even got close to it, let alone looked directly at it.

Also as an aside, does anobody else really want to see a sequel where Indy gets into a fight with a Dagon based cult?

[Sapphire Guard]

Im jumping ahead in this thread, so the question has already been asked, I'm sure but...
Why didn't Indy just stay home and let Hitler and the whole leadership Nazi Club melt?

After all, it is not a joke that Amy told Sheldon in BBT: Everything Indy does in the movie is pointless and if anything his actions actuall makes things worse.

What if this happens instead?

Loyal bodyguard: No, I'm not letting an unknown artefact close to the fuhrer without making sure it's safe. ( opens it, and explodes)

Hitler: Hmm, we should probably look into that. (orders more research) Oh, that's how it works. Cool, we have a new superweapon.


Or this?


Hitler (opens box, explodes)

Keitel/Himmler/whoever takes over: That's odd. (orders more research) Oh, that's how it works. Cool, we have a new superweapon.


Or this:

High Command Officer: Ultimate Power, eh? Mine! (opens box, explodes).

Hitler: Hmm, we should probably look into that. (orders more research) Oh, that's how it works. Cool, we have a new superweapon.

You get the idea.



It is extremely unlikely that every relevant official will be in the same room the first time the thing is opened, and whoever comes next will now have a new ultimate weapon. That criticism sounds cleverer than it is.

[Giggling Ghast]

Im jumping ahead in this thread, so the question has already been asked, I'm sure but...
Why didn't Indy just stay home and let Hitler and the whole leadership Nazi Club melt?

After all, it is not a joke that Amy told Sheldon in BBT: Everything Indy does in the movie is pointless and if anything his actions actuall makes things worse.

Well, first off, Indy didn't actually believe in the power of the Ark initially. He just wanted to keep the Nazis from claiming a religious artifact of immense value, which I think we can all agree is a worthwhile goal.

But again, as I stated earlier in the thread, it actually doesn't matter that the Nazis would have melted their faces off without Indy's help.


It is technically true that without Indy's involvement, the plot of Raiders would have probably resolved itself.

But that's irrelevant. An adventure story doesn't absolutely require fulfillment of its goal to be a good narrative. I've read plenty of stories where a treasure-hunter finds the artifact they're seeking but can't recover it because it's too dangerous or they were misled as to its nature.

Roughly half of Conan the Barbarian's stories end that way, ie. Conan is as penniless as he started out because the treasure is cursed or some other thief gets to it first or the tales of the wealth were misleading.

Without Indy's involvement, the plot of Raiders has the Nazis kill Marion and burn down her bar, go on a relatively uneventful archaeological dig, open the ark and all drop dead. Meanwhile, Dr. Jones teaches a history class. Not the most riveting of tales.

I could name at least a few stories that illustrate this point.

[Donnadogsoth]

After ransacking dozens of ancient tombs and temples, he got a vibe.

[Bohandas]

Yeah, but the Book of Samuel seems to describe it cursing people in a very wide radius (entire cities; although admittedly most ancient cities would merely be mid to large sized towns to modern eyes), people who probably never even got close to it, let alone looked directly at it.


Also it didn't instantly strike people down. It gave them either cancer or hemorrhoids, depending on the translation.

[Brother Oni]

Im jumping ahead in this thread, so the question has already been asked, I'm sure but...
Why didn't Indy just stay home and let Hitler and the whole leadership Nazi Club melt?

A brief recap of my hypothesis:

The Nazis wouldn't have found Marion in Nepal without Indy leading them there
Gestapo guy wouldn't have gotten the headstone (half or otherwise) for the map room
With no guide on where to dig, the Nazis would have had to excavate the whole city
With the pressure already on Belloq to give results, either the plug would have been pulled on the dig by the impatient Germans or the advancing political situation would have made the dig untenable (Egypt was technically British at the time)
The Ark would therefore have been unlikely to be found, so no face melting of German leadership

[Bohandas]

As an archeologist, Indiana Jones is barely better than a grave digger, except that he wants to put what he finds a museum rather than get profit from it.

Only in these two movies:
- He steals an idol from a temple because it would be better in a museum than in it's temple for those who believe in it.
- The arch ends in a warehouse.
- Coronado's cross ends in an US museum (rather than a church or Coronado's tomb or somewhere in Portugal)
- Indy would totally have stolen the Graal from his guardian if he could have.

Don't forget him selling some ancient ruler's burial urn and remains to the chinese mafia at the beginning of Temple of Doom

[Giggling Ghast]

A brief recap of my hypothesis:
[LIST]
The Nazis wouldn't have found Marion in Nepal without Indy leading them there]

Wait, how would the Nazis have not found Marion? They say nothing about following Jones.

In fact, without Indy's involvement, they would have tortured her with hot pokers.

[Keltest]

Wait, how would the Nazis have not found Marion? They say nothing about following Jones.

In fact, without Indy's involvement, they would have tortured her with hot pokers.

It was implied they followed her because they focused on a shady man getting on the same plane as Indy, and its a rather unlikely coincidence that they would arrive almost exactly as Indy has left if they both independently knew where she was. Nepal isn't exactly a tourist location at the best of times.

[factotum]

It was implied they followed her because they focused on a shady man getting on the same plane as Indy, and its a rather unlikely coincidence that they would arrive almost exactly as Indy has left if they both independently knew where she was. Nepal isn't exactly a tourist location at the best of times.

Also, when asked what they want, the Nazis tell Marion "The same thing your friend Dr. Jones wanted", so they clearly knew who he was and why he was there.

[Brother Oni]

Don't forget him selling some ancient ruler's burial urn and remains to the chinese mafia at the beginning of Temple of Doom

To be fair, I think Indy was contracted to find the remains by the Tong in return for the diamond (he mentions that they tried to take the urn without paying the previous night).

Hey, man's gotta eat (or more likely, earn funding for his next proper excavation).