Sorcerer Help

[Unregistered]

Hello everyone!

Once again, I ask for some class building advice, this time for my Sorcerer.

We're a group of all humans (but not all variant human): Warlock (not Eldritch Blast focused), War Priest, Barbarian, Rogue, Ranger, Bard and me, Dragon Sorcerer (Fire).

I play a classical blaster and as my feat, I took Elemetal Adept (fire), of course.

Str: 10, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 16

Skills: Arcana, Deception, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth.

We're level 2 atm and my spells are:

Cantrips: Fire Bolt, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Shocking Grasp
Level 1: Burning Hands, Shield, Chromatic Orb

For level 3, I guess I'll take quickened and twinned spell as Metamagic.

I chose Chromatic Orb to always have the right energy type and I discarded Sleep for being too powerful and too boring / not blastery enough. For the same reasons, no suggestion or charm person or something like that.

Despite reading many of the posted guides, I'm still a bit at a loss for chosing spells. I don't want too many save-or-suck spells (like Sleep/Suggestion, though Banishment will probably be an exception), concentrate on blasting and a few buffs (certainly Haste, maybe polymorph).

One important note: we'll probably not get much higher than level 8-10 (last campaign brought us to lvl 9 just before the end boss). And only PHB spells are available atm.

Already for Lvl 3, I am really not sure what spell to take.

I am not sold on Enhance ability or Enlarge/reduce person as buffs (maybe I don't see their full potential).

Scorching Ray sure is nice but I think it's too redundant at this point since I still have a single target spell (Chromatic Orb) and an AoE spell (Burning Hands).

Misty Step and Mirror Image are certainly good but somehow I refrain from chosing them because they don't profit from Metamagic that much. And maybe Shield is still enough to serve as defensive spell.

So I'm looking at Invisibility as a group buff that can profit from twinned spell but it somehow lacks the wow factor for me.

So what I am looking for, are spell suggestions for the next level (or even better: the next levels).

As always, thanks in advance.

[Laughingdagger]

Hello everyone!

Once again, I ask for some class building advice, this time for my Sorcerer.

We're a group of all humans (but not all variant human): Warlock (not Eldritch Blast focused), War Priest, Barbarian, Rogue, Ranger, Bard and me, Dragon Sorcerer (Fire).

I play a classical blaster and as my feat, I took Elemetal Adept (fire), of course.

Str: 10, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 16

Skills: Arcana, Deception, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth.

We're level 2 atm and my spells are:

Cantrips: Fire Bolt, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Shocking Grasp
Level 1: Burning Hands, Shield, Chromatic Orb

For level 3, I guess I'll take quickened and twinned spell as Metamagic.

I chose Chromatic Orb to always have the right energy type and I discarded Sleep for being too powerful and too boring / not blastery enough. For the same reasons, no suggestion or charm person or something like that.

Despite reading many of the posted guides, I'm still a bit at a loss for chosing spells. I don't want too many save-or-suck spells (like Sleep/Suggestion, though Banishment will probably be an exception), concentrate on blasting and a few buffs (certainly Haste, maybe polymorph).

One important note: we'll probably not get much higher than level 8-10 (last campaign brought us to lvl 9 just before the end boss). And only PHB spells are available atm.

Already for Lvl 3, I am really not sure what spell to take.

I am not sold on Enhance ability or Enlarge/reduce person as buffs (maybe I don't see their full potential).

Scorching Ray sure is nice but I think it's too redundant at this point since I still have a single target spell (Chromatic Orb) and an AoE spell (Burning Hands).

Misty Step and Mirror Image are certainly good but somehow I refrain from chosing them because they don't profit from Metamagic that much. And maybe Shield is still enough to serve as defensive spell.

So I'm looking at Invisibility as a group buff that can profit from twinned spell but it somehow lacks the wow factor for me.

So what I am looking for, are spell suggestions for the next level (or even better: the next levels).

As always, thanks in advance.

Quickened and Twin are my favourite, and twin can be awesome to cast enlarge on two teammates, or invisibility, mirror image is also good for you for sure, helps to avoid getting bonked out of concentration. Scorching ray is great if you just want to go ham by casting that and then quickening a fire bolt.

[DragonSorcererX]

Bestow Curse + Scorching Ray! If you manage to hit a Bestow Curse, you can blast him with Scorching Ray with all your spell slots until he dies!

If you manage to hit your enemy with a 5th level Bestow Curse (you don't need to concentrate when using the 5th level version) you could Curse him and use a spell like Flaming Sphere and still blast him with Scorching Ray.

[Draco4472]

When in doubt, choose fire.

You took that feat for a reason after all, and if you're focused on blasting, buffing need not be your forte.

[Sir cryosin]

Scorching Ray is only v,s and 3 ray's each doing 2d6. Chromatic orb is v,s,m and you need a diamond worth 50 gp which you won't have at lv 1 from my experience. Chromatic orb does 3d8 one attack. Also scorching Ray has a distance of 120 feet while chromatic orb has a distance of 60 feet. For non-combat spells I like mirror image and Web. For 3rd level spells non-combat I like case and slow you too in case on 2 party members and I like slow for debuff. For 4th level spells I like and this is my opinion greater invisibility and dimension door. then for 5th levels spells I love anime objects.

[Foxhound438]

Shatter is a pretty good early levels as a substitute to fireball for a couple of levels. Once you get higher level AOE options, however, it's best to replace it with something a bit more utility focused.

As an aside, enlarge is best used when you have something like a monk that can get 4 attacks per round to fully benefit from the bonus damage, while enhance ability is pretty much hot garbage.

[PeteNutButter]

Aganazzars Scorcher is what you are looking for. It's a poor mans fireball from EE (30 ft line 3d8 Fire). You can download the players companion for free if you don't have the book.

Also as mentioned above scorching Ray is really the best single target damage spell in the game, especially if you can manage to grant advantage to all those attacks. It scales amazingly for 2d6 per level.

[Zalabim]

Enlarge/Reduce is a great utility spell with a lot of uses. It's not just a buff. It works on objects too. Give your fighter the dragon's power and he can suplex giants. It's fun. You don't really have anyone to greatly benefit from it as a buff though.

Web is a really good concentration CC spell for blasters, too. Restrained means you get advantage on your attacks and they take disadvantage on their dexterity saves. Use web to pin them in place, then finish them off with your giga drill breaker shining finger burning hands and they take extra damage from the burning web too.

I'd honestly still take Shatter over Aganazzar's Scorcher. Just call it Dragon's Wrath. I think the better range, damage type, and area will pay off and you still have Burning Hands as your alternate at that point. That gives you a Con save blast as well as a Dex save blast, for the time being. You'll still trade it in once you get fireball and your level 6 feature.

[Unregistered]

Thanks already, lots of suggestions I hadn't in mind yet. I will check them out, especially Web and maybe later on Bestow Curse (but range touch is a bit scary).

I see that a lot (also in other threads) that Chromatic Orb is not recommended. But I think to have one spell with ok damage that has the flexibility to always have the right energy type is worth something (in fact, we did get jewels on level 2, so no problem for the diamond. We're not too strict on spell ingredients anyway), especially when I specialize on fire and when with Scorching Ray (which I will take at some point, no doubt, since it really is a good spell), I always have the risk of not hitting with all 3 rays.

Further suggestions still welcome!

[Sir cryosin]

The bestow curse is not on the sorcerer's list. it's on the Wizards list but not on the sorcerer.

Editted: and you have a higher chance to hit and do damage with scorching Ray then chromatic orb.

[Unregistered]

You're right with Bestow Curse, thanks.

And you're right on Scorching Ray as well that the chance to deal any damage is higher with it. I agree that Scorching Ray is a very good spell. Still, is is that much better that I absolutely should replace Chromatic Orb with it at once (because I absolutely will take Scorching Ray at a later point, probably on level 4)? The flexibility on the energy type really speaks to me to keep it.

[TheUser]

READ THIS:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iSHU0X3lOam5ibk0/view?usp=sharing

The fact nobody has brought up subtle spell and how much of a powerhouse it is baffles me. You should be picking a Half-Elf and getting 16 Dex, Con and Cha with point buy.

If you want to do damage you need empower spell.

Also beg your DM to have access to Spell Points (DMG 288-289) It will make you feel like a sorcerer instead of just like all the other casters.

[Unregistered]

Read it, thanks. No Half-Elf for me (besides, the DM decreed that we should be a all human group this time).

Is empowered really more worth than quickened or twinned (since I probably won't get a 3rd Metamagic) when I really have elemental affinity?

Subtle does sound impressive but to be honest...I can't remember when I was last caught in silence or was restrained or had a counterspell used against us (we seldom seem to fight spell casters). It does not sound like we will have a social campaign.

[TheUser]

Read it, thanks. No Half-Elf for me (besides, the DM decreed that we should be a all human group this time).

Is empowered really more worth than quickened or twinned (since I probably won't get a 3rd Metamagic) when I really have elemental affinity?

Subtle does sound impressive but to be honest...I can't remember when I was last caught in silence or was restrained or had a counterspell used against us (we seldom seem to fight spell casters). It does not sound like we will have a social campaign.

Empowered is CHEAP. It costs 1 sorcery point and can more than double the damage of a spell where you botch the damage roll. It keeps you consistent essentially.

As for Quicken and Twinned they cost double or more sorcery points.

With Quickened remember that you can only shell out a cantrip on the same turn you cast a spell. So until your cantrips (or standard action channeled spells like crown of madness, telekinesis, sunbeam etc) get strong quicken is somewhat lackluster. I pick up quicken at 10, more often than not because I have the spell list/cantrip power to make it better.

Twinned spell is for supports; double haste, double crown of madness, double suggestion are all awesome (Twinned Phantasmal Killer can be used to trick two creatures into attacking on another if you're a clever bastard). So it's strong for sure but again, it costs a lot.

repeat after me: SUBTLE SPELL IS GOD.

It's for breaking social encounters. Do you have any idea how strong using Subtle Suggestion to someone and just saying "Tell me everything you know/the truth, about BLANK" is? Nobody has -any- idea you just used the spell on them (including the victim). You can phantasmal killer someone to think they are choking on something in a room full of people watching. You can cast a fireball on a room full of baddies while hidden and none of them know where it came from unless someone happens to see the ball travel. YOU CANNOT BE COUNTERSPELLED. You win all wizard duels by default; they cannot counter your counterspell even. Getting greater invisibility may as well be called greater invulnerability....the list is endless.

If you want to embrace it take Disguise self and the Actor Feat at level 1 and get your 16 dex,con and Cha (dump your other stats to 8)

[Zalabim]

Is empowered really more worth than quickened or twinned (since I probably won't get a 3rd Metamagic) when I really have elemental affinity?
Well, normally Fire Bolt's 1d10 does 5.5 damage. With Elemental Affinity, it averages 5.6. So having elemental affinity isn't really a factor. When you use empower, the average is 6.75.

Or look at Chromatic Orb's 3d8. Normally it averages 13.5. With Affinity, it averages 13.875. If you use Empower, it averages ~16.5. Elemental Affinity is not really a large enough factor to decide against empower spell.

(At a certain number of dice, the limit on empowered spell switches from number of bad dice rolled to number of dice you're allowed to reroll and that uses a different calculation.)

Your metamagic selection really has to support your spell selection. That's the only important thing to line up. Are you going to use the metamagic you have right now with the spells you have right now? Then it's probably fine. Because Twin and Quicken are both on the more expensive end, it can be a bit burstier. Empowered spell gives you a more consistent burn.

Subtle spell isn't really the blaster sorcerer thing. It can be a dragon-themed sorcerer's thing, but it's not a blaster-role thing.

[djreynolds]

Feather fall, it is very nice to have.

My wizard, who had a 14 in strength and the soldier background, failed his climb checks always.

I always like to have reaction and bonus action spells, so misty step is there when you get grappled, or cloaker attack.

Otherwise you look great.

[Rysto]

Well, normally Fire Bolt's 1d10 does 5.5 damage. With Elemental Affinity, it averages 5.6. So having elemental affinity isn't really a factor.

Uh, what? I don't understand your math here. Elemental Affinity lets you add your CHA modifier to one damage roll. That's worth a lot more than 0.1 damage.

[TheUser]

Uh, what? I don't understand your math here. Elemental Affinity lets you add your CHA modifier to one damage roll. That's worth a lot more than 0.1 damage.

He means the feat not the dragon feature

[EvilAnagram]

I'm going to go ahead and say you should ignore the people telling you to completely rebuild your character. Your sorcerer is not their sorcerer, and even though they bought into someone's idea of what is definitely thebestmostamazingbuildever, you should not feel compelled to follow suit.

Empower is pretty nice, but Twin and Quickened are also very nice, a d between your feat and your Elemental Affinity, your average damage will be skewed pretty high. Hell, the ability to cast a spell and disengage in the same round make Quickened awesome on its own, and there are plenty of combos to boot. I enjoy Careful Spell when I have that many attack-heavy PCs in my party, but your sorcerer should fit your concept, not mine.

Subtle Spell is oddly overrated by a small group of people. It's nice, but it's certainly not mind-bendingly amazing. Out of my last three casters, I experienced exactly one situation in which I could not cast as normal, and that was because of an anti-magic field.

As for spell selection, I honestly think Web will serve your party the best. The Rogue especially would be grateful for that. The other option I would suggest (besides Scorching Ray for obvious reasons) is Shatter, as it provides decent damage with enough utility to occasionally provide tactical advantages. Destroying nonmagical objects can be very helpful, especially if you count the floor or a bridge.

Enlarge/Reduce seems like a nice choice for you, too. The buff is decent, but with Twin you can buff a friend and debuff an enemy at the same time, using the same concentration.

[Rysto]

Subtle Spell is oddly overrated by a small group of people. It's nice, but it's certainly not mind-bendingly amazing. Out of my last three casters, I experienced exactly one situation in which I could not cast as normal, and that was because of an anti-magic field.

I think it's because it's DM and campaign dependent. In a heavily social campaign, or a CAW campaign where standing out in the open slinging spells is going to get you killed, or against a DM who loves to shut down casters with Counterspell, it becomes a lot more valuable.

[TheUser]

I think it's because it's DM and campaign dependent. In a heavily social campaign, or a CAW campaign where standing out in the open slinging spells is going to get you killed, or against a DM who loves to shut down casters with Counterspell, it becomes a lot more valuable.

If your DM has you running a group of murder hobos that never encounter semi-intelligent opponents/town or you don't have much creativity

[Unregistered]

Again, thanks for all the suggestions.

I'm pretty much set for Web as my next spell, probably followed by Scorching Ray the level after that.

I do agree that Subtle spell sounds awesome in social adventures but I think we're going for a dungeon crawl so I'm pretty sure I won't take Subtle spells.

I'll think about getting empowered spell instead of quickened spell (Twinned spell is set for the "Double concentration" possibility) for the whole "immolating people", though quickened seems more versatile. And don't forget: I won't get a third metamagic choice.

What is the "rule" for using empowered? Re-rolling every 2s and 3s or even 4s?

And sorry for the confusion: I meant of course "Elemental Adept" not "Elemental Affinity".

[Zalabim]

(Thanks for the correction of the ability name. Yes, I'm talking about Elemental Adept for the weird dice averages)

I didn't have time yesterday to do this math:

Assuming you hit 65% of the time(and counting crits), firebolt does (for you) 5.6*.7=3.92 average damage before level 5, double that at level 5 (7.84), and ~10.44 at level 6 when you get Elemental Affinity as well. This is important because Twinning Fire Bolt lets you attack a second creature for full damage, and Quickening a normal spell lets you at least add a fire bolt to any creature. You can combine them, quickening your normal spell and twinning fire bolt for maximum burn. So you get 3.92/7.84/10.44 damage to a second target for 1 SP, or 3.92/7.84/10.44 extra damage to a primary target for 2 SP.

Empowering Fire Bolt raises your average damage per die (for you) by 1.2, so 1.2 then 2.4 after level 5, 3.6 after level 11, and 4.8 after level 17. Empowering Fireball raises your average damage by about 6 (Best 8 of 12d6 is 35.26, while just 8d6 is 29.33 for you and it won't be exactly as good on average) for 1 SP. You use quicken or twin on demand and empower only when you've rolled poor dice. The takeaway is that you probably won't get much benefit from empower before you're rolling a fistful of dice with an area spell like fireball.

If you do take empower, you can reroll any dice that are lower than the average damage (half the maximum or less) and expect (but not always get) an improvement in average damage, or just reroll dice that really suck for larger average gains and less frequent use. So it depends on what size of die it is in the first place and how fast you want to use your SP.

[DKing9114]

I'd probably pick up magic missile, because having a spell that hits automatically and does damage without saves is never a bad thing.

[Unregistered]

(Thanks for the correction of the ability name. Yes, I'm talking about Elemental Adept for the weird dice averages)

I didn't have time yesterday to do this math:

Assuming you hit 65% of the time(and counting crits), firebolt does (for you) 5.6*.7=3.92 average damage before level 5, double that at level 5 (7.84), and ~10.44 at level 6 when you get Elemental Affinity as well. This is important because Twinning Fire Bolt lets you attack a second creature for full damage, and Quickening a normal spell lets you at least add a fire bolt to any creature. You can combine them, quickening your normal spell and twinning fire bolt for maximum burn. So you get 3.92/7.84/10.44 damage to a second target for 1 SP, or 3.92/7.84/10.44 extra damage to a primary target for 2 SP.

Empowering Fire Bolt raises your average damage per die (for you) by 1.2, so 1.2 then 2.4 after level 5, 3.6 after level 11, and 4.8 after level 17. Empowering Fireball raises your average damage by about 6 (Best 8 of 12d6 is 35.26, while just 8d6 is 29.33 for you and it won't be exactly as good on average) for 1 SP. You use quicken or twin on demand and empower only when you've rolled poor dice. The takeaway is that you probably won't get much benefit from empower before you're rolling a fistful of dice with an area spell like fireball.

If you do take empower, you can reroll any dice that are lower than the average damage (half the maximum or less) and expect (but not always get) an improvement in average damage, or just reroll dice that really suck for larger average gains and less frequent use. So it depends on what size of die it is in the first place and how fast you want to use your SP.

Thanks for the math, I appreciate it! I'm still unsure wheher to take Empowered or Quickened, I guess I'll let it stew for a while until we get to level 3 (so end of the session after the next, I guess). For single target hitting, quickend seems better and it has the advantage of having more uses than "deal more damage", though more expensive. Empowered is better for area of effect spells (and Scorching Ray maybe), considering how cheap it is. This is important since I won't have that many sorcerer points for my player career - though on the other hand, I won't have the possibility to cast Fireball as often as Firebolt. I still lean towards quickened just because it may come in handy once in a while to quicken a spell and get full movement but we'll see.

@DKing9114: MM is a solid spell but for my purpose it is not "flashy" enough. I try to limit my blast spells that are not fire based.

Again, thanks to all of you.