Best fighter feats?

[Coretron03]

I know fighter here are considered underpowered to compared to wizard, but what are some of the nicest feats printed? Ones that make the fighter better and could be called optmized?

ps do fighter have worthwhile ACF's In some places i heard fighters dont have very good options in that area

[Seppo87]

Fighters are not "underpowered" in a sense that their stats are too low (although they can be, if you don't optimize properly)

What really hurts fighter is the following:

1- Only having a single type of power
Fighters can only influence the world by hitting things, this is the only power they possess. This gives them very little agency over events and the outside world.
Compare to being able to Teleport, Locate Object, or Charm
You cannot hit the road until it gets you to your destination.
You cannot hit existance until it reveals where the object is.
You can, technically, hit a person to submission, IF your intimidate is high enough. You cannot do that in public though.
Fighters only have a single solution available for all situations: HITTING THINGS, and this solution is often useless for solving problems.

2- Not being able to use their power in many situations
This is more of a tactical issue; On paper, a well optimized fighting type can deal extremely high damage and have good defenses.
However, it's very easy to restrict or avoid a fighting character in such a way that he's not allowed to unleash its full potential against an enemy.

Sleep, Grease, Invisibility, Fly, Black Tentacles, Wind Wall, Repel Metal, Solid Fog, Forcecage
As soon as the fighter is not allowed to HIT THINGS, the fighter becomes completely useless.

For all casters, preventing fighters from hitting things is easy.

To answer you question,

The best feat for a pure fighter that is not allowed to multiclass is Martial Study, you take it twice and learn Iron Heart Surge.
This solves partially the second problem.

Good ACFs include Zentharim Soldier, Dungeoncrasher, Hit-n-Run Fighter, Targetteer, Exoticist

Good feats in general depend on what kind of Fighter you're building, it's too broad of a question.

[Coretron03]

Fighters are not "underpowered" in a sense that their stats are too low (although they can be, if you don't optimize properly)

What really hurts fighter is the following:

1- Only having a single type of power
Fighters can only influence the world by hitting things, this is the only power they possess. This gives them very little agency over events and the outside world.
Compare to being able to Teleport, Locate Object, or Charm
You cannot hit the road until it gets you to your destination.
You cannot hit existance until it reveals where the object is.
You can, technically, hit a person to submission, IF your intimidate is high enough. You cannot do that in public though.
Fighters only have a single solution available for all situations: HITTING THINGS, and this solution is often useless for solving problems.

2- Not being able to use their power in many situations
This is more of a tactical issue; On paper, a well optimized fighting type can deal extremely high damage and have good defenses.
However, it's very easy to restrict or avoid a fighting character in such a way that he's not allowed to unleash its full potential against an enemy.

Sleep, Grease, Invisibility, Fly, Black Tentacles, Wind Wall, Repel Metal, Solid Fog, Forcecage
As soon as the fighter is not allowed to HIT THINGS, the fighter becomes completely useless.

For all casters, preventing fighters from hitting things is easy.

To answer you question,

The best feat for a pure fighter that is not allowed to multiclass is Martial Study, you take it twice and learn Iron Heart Surge.
This solves partially the second problem.

Good ACFs include Zentharim Soldier, Dungeoncrasher, Hit-n-Run Fighter, Targetteer, Exoticist

Good feats in general depend on what kind of Fighter you're building, it's too broad of a question.
That makes a bit more sense then being underpowered

Could you provide links to these ACF and what is martial study and ironheart surge?

Thanks

[ace rooster]

Fighters are not "underpowered" in a sense that their stats are too low (although they can be, if you don't optimize properly)

What really hurts fighter is the following:

1- Only having a single type of power
Fighters can only influence the world by hitting things, this is the only power they possess. This gives them very little agency over events and the outside world.
Compare to being able to Teleport, Locate Object, or Charm
You cannot hit the road until it gets you to your destination.
You cannot hit existance until it reveals where the object is.
You can, technically, hit a person to submission, IF your intimidate is high enough. You cannot do that in public though.
Fighters only have a single solution available for all situations: HITTING THINGS, and this solution is often useless for solving problems.

2- Not being able to use their power in many situations
This is more of a tactical issue; On paper, a well optimized fighting type can deal extremely high damage and have good defenses.
However, it's very easy to restrict or avoid a fighting character in such a way that he's not allowed to unleash its full potential against an enemy.

Sleep, Grease, Invisibility, Fly, Black Tentacles, Wind Wall, Repel Metal, Solid Fog, Forcecage
As soon as the fighter is not allowed to HIT THINGS, the fighter becomes completely useless.

For all casters, preventing fighters from hitting things is easy.

To answer you question,

The best feat for a pure fighter that is not allowed to multiclass is Martial Study, you take it twice and learn Iron Heart Surge.
This solves partially the second problem.

Good ACFs include Zentharim Soldier, Dungeoncrasher, Hit-n-Run Fighter, Targetteer, Exoticist

Good feats in general depend on what kind of Fighter you're building, it's too broad of a question.

Actually, their stats are way too low. If you compare a CR5 fighter to a CR5 warrior; the warrior gets +5 attack, almost twice the hit points, better saves and skills, and only one less feat. Because NPC equipment is based on level, the warrior should even have far more gear. A CR 5 red dragon is even worse, getting a breath weapon, natural armour, multiple attacks, a fly speed, ability bonuses, more HP, all good saves and a fly speed on top of what the warrior gets. A fighter has to be optimised to stand toe to toe with a CR equal combat monster, and generally that means very specialised.

The problem is that they placed too much value in BAB, and then forgot to use it for anything. It doesn't help you dodge, lead military units, or assess foes. An epic fighter who has battled demons for decades should be the ideal person to command an army, verging on being a god of war, but they get no advantages over a level 1 wizard. They then linked BAB to HD, and represented size with HD, meaning that they couldn't use BAB for things like that, because it would result in elephants having the abilities of elite special forces.

There are some good feats out there, and I think Seppo covered the highlights, but there are very few that are not built on the faulty assumption that a fighter will be able to compete with monsters on stats. Wizards are able to compete by ignoring stats to a large extent.

[Ruethgar]

The best fighter feat by leaps and bounds above all overs is Leadership via the Commander variant, especially taken at level one by a Martial Monk. I also like Mobility lvl 1, Spring Attack for Martial Monk 2 with a Devil Bloodline(think that was dodge) and mobility for early entry into Jaunter. Not a great class but fun to mess with.

[Âmesang]

I've been meaning to write out a .pdf containing as many fighter bonus feats as I have access to… but mainly for use with the heroics spell. :smalltongue:

[Coretron03]

I've been meaning to write out a .pdf containing as many fighter bonus feats as I have access to… but mainly for use with the heroics spell. :smalltongue:

Thats the spell that gives a extra feat right? Also the document sounds pretty cool

[OldTrees1]

I know fighter here are considered underpowered to compared to wizard, but what are some of the nicest feats printed? Ones that make the fighter better and could be called optmized?

ps do fighter have worthwhile ACF's In some places i heard fighters dont have very good options in that area

Remember Fighters get 2 kinds of feats. They get 11 [Fighter] feats and 7+ other feats.

Here is my list (* denotes a [Fighter] feat)
*Combat Reflexes
Evasive Reflexes
*Improved Trip(try to avoid the prereq)

Standstill

*Power Attack(prereq)
*Improved Bullrush(prereq)
*Knockback

*Power Attack(prereq)
*Improved Bullrush(prereq)
Leap Attack
*Shocktrooper

*Power Attack(prereq)
*Improved Bullrush(prereq)
*Cleave(prereq)
*Weapon Focus(heavy mace, morningstar, or greatclub)(prereq)
Three Mountain (or just get 1 die of Sneak attack and get Staggering Strike to avoid all the prereqs)

Imperious Command

Abberrant Blood
Starspawn
Inhuman Reach

Dragon Wings
Improved Dragon Wings

Willing Deformity
Deformity(Tall)

ACFs I like
Zhentarim (3,5,9)
Thug (lose a [Fighter] feat -> get better skills)
Dungeoncrasher

[gorfnab]

That makes a bit more sense then being underpowered

Could you provide links to these ACF and what is martial study and ironheart surge?

Thanks
Fighter ACFs
Zentharim Soldier - Champions of Valor (Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a))
Dungeoncrasher - Dungeonscape
Hit-n-Run Fighter - Drow of the Underdark
Targetteer - Dragon Magazine #310
Exoticist - Dragon Magazine #310

Other
Martial Study feat - Tome of Battle
Ironheart Surge maneuver - Tome of Battle

[Tiri]

Actually, their stats are way too low. If you compare a CR5 fighter to a CR5 warrior; the warrior gets +5 attack, almost twice the hit points, better saves and skills, and only one less feat. Because NPC equipment is based on level, the warrior should even have far more gear.

Where did you get the idea that a Warrior's CR is half his level? In the case of Humans it's only level -1, and even in the case of something like a kobold (which really does need it) it's only level -3.

[Troacctid]

Where did you get the idea that a Warrior's CR is half his level? In the case of Humans it's only level -1, and even in the case of something like a kobold (which really does need it) it's only level -3.
From the Monster Manual.

If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

[MirddinEmris]

Personally, i like Elusive Target feat, it's unfortunate about those prepreqs it needs (namely Dodge and Mobility).

Also there are ACF that you can trade Fighter Bonus Feats for. Resolute is quite good one, being able to put your bab into will save checks is very useful.