How does human compares to lesser aasimar and this homebrew race?

[Huldaerus]

Hey guys.

I'll be running a game featuring humans, lesser aasimars (humanoid aasimars instead of outsiders, no darkvision) and this homebrew race as playable races:


+2 dex, +2 int, -2 cha
medium humanoid (elf)
speed 30' base
darkvision 60' and low-light vision
+2 move silently and hide
50% concealment in shadowy areas rather than 20%
RE cold 5, electricity 5
SLA: darkness 1/day

How does a core human compare to those two races? Should I give them +2 to one ability score of their choice, like in PF, to balance them out?

[ryu]

In most cases I'd probably still take the human over either. Feats are big, versatile, and if you know what you're doing powerful. An extra feat can mean a build coming into power levels earlier, or a completed build picking up a new trick entirely.

[Beheld]

Seems very weird that you took Darkvision away from Aasimar, but gave it to elves with magic powers that seem more in line with lowlight vision.

I would say that humans are probably fine compared to your nerfed aasimar, but both humans and your nerfed aasimar are weak compared to the elves.

[FearlessGnome]

Very few races indeed get +2 Int with no LA, and this guy gets +2 to dex as well. Cha is a dump stat for the majority of classes, because there is no penalty for dumping it other than having to leave social interactions to your party members, so really it's a net +4. In addition to that the homebrewer then wants to give them a smattering of small bonuses and easy access to 50% concealment?

No way that race is LA0 in 3.5. It doesn't fit every class, but it is a very obvious choice indeed for any Int based character who doesn't need the human bonus feat.

If you want the three to stand on equal footing, give the human a +2 to any stat like you suggested, then make the base Aasimar LA0 and forget about the Lesser version.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's very easy to get at-will darkness (one level in warlock), so that elf can basically have 50% concealment all the time, which prevents targeting, as well. I'm not sure that's LA +1 by itself, but maybe that is a reason to reduce the power of the ability a bit, for example: "Whenever your enemies suffer a miss chance to hit you due to concealment granted by shadowy illumination, that miss chance is 10% higher than the norm (30% for partial concealment, and 60% for full concealment)".

[Huldaerus]

Thanks all for your input.


In most cases I'd probably still take the human over either. Feats are big, versatile, and if you know what you're doing powerful.

My thoughts exactly. But after reading some comments here, it seems like I overvalued that extra feat.


I would say that humans are probably fine compared to your nerfed aasimar, but both humans and your nerfed aasimar are weak compared to the elves.

How would you make them more balanced against them?


Very few races indeed get +2 Int with no LA, and this guy gets +2 to dex as well. Cha is a dump stat for the majority of classes, because there is no penalty for dumping it other than having to leave social interactions to your party members, so really it's a net +4.

How about -2 Con rather than -2 Cha?


so that elf can basically have 50% concealment all the time, which prevents targeting, as well.

Perhaps I did not make it sufficiently clear. That trait does not grant them total concealment. It just increases the miss chance in areas of dim light. It does nothing in magical darkness.

[ryu]

Do keep in mind that that was likely more in keeping with WotC LA logic than what's actually stronger. The reason that homebrew looks like something that would be LAed in this system is because WotC hates races which are weird or have interesting abilities, and thus demands they be objectively worse than races that are either humans or basically humans in all the ways that matter.

[Beheld]

How would you make them more balanced against them?

How about -2 Con rather than -2 Cha?

I would give them Low Light Vision instead of Darkvision and the Con penalty instead of Charisma. That would make their concealment feature actually relevant at all (since they would bring their own light and keep it far enough away that they are in shadowy illumination for enemies without Low Light Vision, and so monsters without darkvision would miss them more), and it would be a stat penalty that really does hurt, to go with the bonuses. Basically a Grey Elf without a Str penalty and with a cute visions mechanic.

I'd also probably give the Aasimar back Darkvision. As is though, you have the race incentivized to never bring a light source at all being the one that benefits from fighting in shadowy illumination.

[Huldaerus]

Do keep in mind that that was likely more in keeping with WotC LA logic than what's actually stronger. The reason that homebrew looks like something that would be LAed in this system is because WotC hates races which are weird or have interesting abilities, and thus demands they be objectively worse than races that are either humans or basically humans in all the ways that matter.

Yeah, that's right. I don't want humans to be better at everything in my game, though.


I would give them Low Light Vision instead of Darkvision and the Con penalty instead of Charisma. That would make their concealment feature actually relevant at all (since they would bring their own light and keep it far enough away that they are in shadowy illumination for enemies without Low Light Vision, and so monsters without darkvision would miss them more), and it would be a stat penalty that really does hurt, to go with the bonuses. Basically a Grey Elf without a Str penalty and with a cute visions mechanic.

I'd also probably give the Aasimar back Darkvision.

Now that helps a lot. I'm probably adopting those changes. Would you give humans +2 to a single stat too or keep them as core?

[FearlessGnome]

-2 Con balances out one of the stat boosts. The other one is approximately worth as much as the human feat. Most will go for the feat, but it depends on the build and the player. +2 Int is not common. The extra benefit from concealment is not a small bonus, though. You have to work a bit to keep it working at higher levels when most enemies have blindsight/true seeing, but it's very much worth it for a 50% miss chance for the price of a 20% one.

I would still either take away one of the Elven +2s or give the Human a +2 and make the Lesser Aasimars real Aasimars.

[darksolitaire]

Isn't that stat block pretty much a tiefling? :smallconfused:

[ryu]

-2 Con balances out one of the stat boosts. The other one is approximately worth as much as the human feat. Most will go for the feat, but it depends on the build and the player. +2 Int is not common. The extra benefit from concealment is not a small bonus, though. You have to work a bit to keep it working at higher levels when most enemies have blindsight/true seeing, but it's very much worth it for a 50% miss chance for the price of a 20% one.

I would still either take away one of the Elven +2s or give the Human a +2 and make the Lesser Aasimars real Aasimars.

I would take a moment to point out that a +2 to a stat is in no way equivalent to a feat. For example lets look at one of the most powerful instances of a +2 to a stat. The elven wizard. That +2 is giving more spells per day, higher DCs, more skillpoints, and possibly synergy with feats like faerie mysteries initiate or similar. In comparison to all this you'll still regularly see human mages. But wait. The elf wasn't just getting INT. They were also gaining access to exceptionally powerful ACFs, a few neat bonuses like extended lifespan, better vision, and bunch of other small things.

[FearlessGnome]

I would take a moment to point out that a +2 to a stat is in no way equivalent to a feat. For example lets look at one of the most powerful instances of a +2 to a stat. The elven wizard. That +2 is giving more spells per day, higher DCs, more skillpoints, and possibly synergy with feats like faerie mysteries initiate or similar. In comparison to all this you'll still regularly see human mages. But wait. The elf wasn't just getting INT. They were also gaining access to exceptionally powerful ACFs, a few neat bonuses like extended lifespan, better vision, and bunch of other small things.

So... exactly like this homebrew elf, then? Because this homebrew elf also gets that. It's basically the original Int elf with extra free stuff. It's an extremely good race for a wizard, and still good for other Int based classes. Which is why OP is asking if the races need tweaking.

[ryu]

So... exactly like this homebrew elf, then? Because this homebrew elf also gets that. It's basically the original Int elf with extra free stuff. It's an extremely good race for a wizard, and still good for other Int based classes. Which is why OP is asking if the races need tweaking.

Would I take this over INT elf standard for a wizard? Probably. Would adding a single LA make this equivalent to the elf original, or quantifiably worse? Keep in mind all those extras and ask yourself one question. Is this better or worse than an entire class level? For that matter is there anything here I couldn't easily obtain for fairly cheap at mid levels and if so what?

[FearlessGnome]

Would I take this over INT elf standard for a wizard? Probably. Would adding a single LA make this equivalent to the elf original, or quantifiably worse? Keep in mind all those extras and ask yourself one question. Is this better or worse than an entire class level? For that matter is there anything here I couldn't easily obtain for fairly cheap at mid levels and if so what?

The standard I use to judge it is "Is this race definitely stronger than the other LA0 zero alternatives?" Not for each and every build, sure, and for a caster you are extra reluctant to lose class levels, but then a Half-Ogre makes a lousy sorcerer, and we don't lower the LA for Half-Ogre just because they make lousy Sorcerers.

As for whether there are things this gives you that are hard to replicate in other ways... Almost everything can be replicated with the right spell or item. Non-Enhancement increases to ability scores being the obvious exception. The extra concealment bonus remains great if you have something like Darkstalker and the ability to control the light levels around you.

Would I personally use this race over a Human if I played a Wizard? No, not if there was no free LA or LA buyoff, but I'd certainly consider it and compare it to other low LA options if there was LA buyoff on the table. In this case though we are not discussing whether the race should have LA, but whether the other two races should get a boost for it to be fair that they are all LA0.

[ryu]

The standard I use to judge it is "Is this race definitely stronger than the other LA0 zero alternatives?" Not for each and every build, sure, and for a caster you are extra reluctant to lose class levels, but then a Half-Ogre makes a lousy sorcerer, and we don't lower the LA for Half-Ogre just because they make lousy Sorcerers.

As for whether there are things this gives you that are hard to replicate in other ways... Almost everything can be replicated with the right spell or item. Non-Enhancement increases to ability scores being the obvious exception. The extra concealment bonus remains great if you have something like Darkstalker and the ability to control the light levels around you.

Would I personally use this race over a Human if I played a Wizard? No, not if there was no free LA or LA buyoff, but I'd certainly consider it and compare it to other low LA options if there was LA buyoff on the table. In this case though we are not discussing whether the race should have LA, but whether the other two races should get a boost for it to be fair that they are all LA0.

As a rebuttal on the half ogre thing do half ogres make non-lousy anything? Like literally ANYTHING? Can you even find a combination of two class levels that wouldn't get you better within your concept? Even for straight-up martial character without martial initiator levels I'm pretty sure barbarian 2 is still objectively better in pretty much all situations.

Yes very few things are hard to replicate. Therefore very few things are actually worth a penalty as harsh as even a single LA in my eyes. Stuff like naturally counting as a spellcaster of a certain level for instance. That's worth LA equivalent to the level of caster replication at minimum.

[FearlessGnome]

Yes very few things are hard to replicate. Therefore very few things are actually worth a penalty as harsh as even a single LA in my eyes. Stuff like naturally counting as a spellcaster of a certain level for instance. That's worth LA equivalent to the level of caster replication at minimum.

I don't disagree, but that's rather a separate discussion. The question here is, considering the things this homebrew elf gets, should the Human and/or Lesser Aasimar be buffed in any way?

[ryu]

I don't disagree, but that's rather a separate discussion. The question here is, considering the things this homebrew elf gets, should the Human and/or Lesser Aasimar be buffed in any way?

If we're getting into something that specific the question becomes what people are actually making and if said people are on reasonably equal ground, read same tier, based on the choices made. There are exactly two levels of conversation I'm interested in when it comes to races. The macro-level and getting rid of most instances of LA and racial hitdie as a concept. Not all but most. Or the specific level wherein things like class choice, feats, and if applicable spells are taken into account.

[GrayDeath]

I`d rule it thusly: is it a medium to high OP Game? if so, let them use this race, no surcharge, and boost the Human/De-LA the Aasimaar and be happy.

Is it a Low to non-OP Game? Give it LA of 1 and still reduce the concealment bonus to say 33%.

Reasoning: If "just played, no theorycrafting" Enviroment is in play this race is seriously strong for almost any Wizard/Rogue/Psion Build.
If serious OPing is a thing, its soon gonna be obsolete/unimportant at the very least.

[Godskook]

Isn't that stat block pretty much a tiefling? :smallconfused:

Lesser Tieflings +Elf subtype, yeah, looks like it.

[Huldaerus]

Isn't that stat block pretty much a tiefling?


Lesser Tieflings +Elf subtype, yeah, looks like it.

My inspiration was the Pathfinder's fetchling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/fetchling), to be honest, not tieflings.

[Godskook]

My inspiration was the Pathfinder's fetchling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/fetchling), to be honest, not tieflings.

Sure, but you nailed Tieflings pretty hardon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling) Imho, what you took away from Tiefling is worth less than gaining the elf subtype, so I'd say this ends up being just a more powerful Lesser Tiefling, in the end.

[FearlessGnome]

My inspiration was the Pathfinder's fetchling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/fetchling), to be honest, not tieflings.

Ah, well that might help explain it. Pathfinder races tend to be a bit stronger than the 3.5 ones. Aasimar (Not the Lesser version) is LA 0, and Humans get the +2. I would just go with the Pathfinder versions of the races, then. Provides more customization for the players if they want it, too, because Pathfinder races come with a lot of optional tinkering.

[Huldaerus]

Sure, but you nailed Tieflings pretty hardon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling) Imho, what you took away from Tiefling is worth less than gaining the elf subtype, so I'd say this ends up being just a more powerful Lesser Tiefling, in the end.

Did you actually read the whole thread?

Now I'm going +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con
And low-light vision instead of darkvision 60'

[Beheld]

Now that helps a lot. I'm probably adopting those changes. Would you give humans +2 to a single stat too or keep them as core?

I would not do either of those. Without any change, they are weaker than those two races. With +2 to any stat, they are objectively better than either of those races.

The thing is, +2 to any stat is literally the best possible stat array at 0LA, and that plus a feat is really good. Because you always pick the only stat you actually care about, and all characters really care about one stat with Con secondary for all of them.

So what I would do is give Humans +2 Con relative to Core.

[Huldaerus]

I'm thinking about using the favored class option from Pathfinder. Does that extra hp per level benefit my homebrew race more than the other two playable races?

[ryu]

I'm thinking about using the favored class option from Pathfinder. Does that extra hp per level benefit my homebrew race more than the other two playable races?

I actually consider two HP per level fairly piddly in the grand scheme of things. While it technically is scaling, it's scaling that gets progressively less effective as damage numbers increase. An extra two HP at level one may matter. Does anyone here think forty extra is likely to be the deciding factor at twenty? I mean you can argue that applying such to a race with a con penalty likely to see wizard use makes it more significant. The thing is that if that same player cares about HP they're probably also either becoming a necropolitan for D12 hitdie and no reliance on con, or taking faerie mysteries initiate for int to HP instead of con, or both if they're really intent on being a wall of meat.

I think it's a nice bonus that everyone will enjoy. No I don't see it doing much more for one than the other.