DnD 3.5e Ability Score Loss

[Renevad]

Ok, so i had a sneaky plan to get through the boss fight, due to the fact that we were all in a bad situation, i decided to get the boss aggroed to the parties tank previously known as "min" (btw i lost the fight DX), and i made the boss/party think i turned on him, got the entire party excluding min to come after me, giving min some alone time with the boss, the boss unleashed some scary a@@ spells and i felt good about my decision, only bad thing, the parties trying to murder me now, their assassin was about to nearly 1 hit me so i dropped feeble mind on her, the dm said that even though her int was 1 she could still function and use her class stuff hints ima bout to die, i was going to unveil my deception but we left off right as the assassin was going to kill me, so i couldnt a.k.a. it wasnt my turn, and so i was wondering since by logic she has a current i.q. of 10 should she be able to function as a character? whats the effect of 1 int?

[Renevad]

By the way he only said she could because we couldnt find anything on it

[Necroticplague]

Ok, so i had a sneaky plan to get through the boss fight, due to the fact that we were all in a bad situation, i decided to get the boss aggroed to the parties tank previously known as "min" (btw i lost the fight DX), and i made the boss/party think i turned on him, got the entire party excluding min to come after me, giving min some alone time with the boss, the boss unleashed some scary a@@ spells and i felt good about my decision, only bad thing, the parties trying to murder me now, their assassin was about to nearly 1 hit me so i dropped feeble mind on her, the dm said that even though her int was 1 she could still function and use her class stuff hints ima bout to die, i was going to unveil my deception but we left off right as the assassin was going to kill me, so i couldnt a.k.a. it wasnt my turn, and so i was wondering since by logic she has a current i.q. of 10 should she be able to function as a character? whats the effect of 1 int?

You can still function as a character as long as your INT is at least 1, or a nonability. Your DM is in the right.

[Zombimode]

I was not able to decipher what you tried to tell.

Having an Int score of 1 means an Int mod of -5. For a caster if Int is your main casting stat you need a minimum Int score of 10 + the level of the spell you try to cast. With an Int of 1 casting would not be possible.
You would also not be able to use Feats that have an Int requirement. There are also roleplaying implications seeing as an Int of one is animal intelligence, but those aren't codified.

[Deophaun]

You can still function as a character as long as your INT is at least 1, or a nonability. Your DM is in the right.
Eh, not really. Int of 1 and 2 is animal intelligence. You still "function," as you can move, breath, eat, etc, but you aren't forming plans, and really any class abilities should be non-operative, as animals aren't smart enough to have them. And I'm sure there's a quote somewhere in the rules about creatures with Int below 3 being unsuitable for PCs.

[Renevad]

see what im getting at is that he said having an int of 1 changed absolutly nothing for her, i really only got peeved over it due to the fact that he told me that i more or less wasted a high level slot and it had absolutly no effect, she can sneak attack and use everything normally. all im saying is that she's literally as smart as a camel right now.

[Necroticplague]

see what im getting at is that he said having an int of 1 changed absolutly nothing for her, i really only got peeved over it due to the fact that he told me that i more or less wasted a high level slot and it had absolutly no effect, she can sneak attack and use everything normally. all im saying is that she's literally as smart as a camel right now.

Well, if she's an assassin, she can't cast spells, so that's a pretty big deal. she's also vulnerable to any more INT damage. A Ray of Stupidity could put her in a coma.

Though, I am kinda confused by your predicament. If it's just you and the assasin, how is she sneak attacking you?

[Deophaun]

A Ray of Stupidity could put her in a coma.
Not really operative here, as it looks like he's not going to be able to survive due to the assassin somehow retaining all faculties, because you're supposed to feeblemind the player, apparently.

Nectroticplague is right that there are no hard rules about class features and Intelligence; instead, there's just a lot of fluff strongly suggesting certain things. Basically, you're screwed because your group simply doesn't care about RP. Sorry, your character's gonna die.

[Erit]

Well, if she's an assassin, she can't cast spells, so that's a pretty big deal. she's also vulnerable to any more INT damage. A Ray of Stupidity could put her in a coma.

Though, I am kinda confused by your predicament. If it's just you and the assasin, how is she sneak attacking you?

Three rounds, death attack. The save's DC would be in the toilet though because of its ****ty scaling and dependency on the Intelligence modifier that has just been tanked.

However, small wrinkle in the DM's judgement. I forget where it's written, but entities with an intelligence less than three are ineligible for class levels. Depending on the interpretation of that, any class abilities one has cease to be usable at that time. The assassin has the mental faculties of a camel or a purple worm right now, and that's in the PHB on page nine. I'd like to see him dispute that.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ok, so i had a sneaky plan to get through the boss fight, due to the fact that we were all in a bad situation, i decided to get the boss aggroed to the parties tank previously known as "min" (btw i lost the fight DX), and i made the boss/party think i turned on him, got the entire party excluding min to come after me, giving min some alone time with the boss, the boss unleashed some scary a@@ spells and i felt good about my decision, only bad thing, the parties trying to murder me now, their assassin was about to nearly 1 hit me so i dropped feeble mind on her, the dm said that even though her int was 1 she could still function and use her class stuff hints ima bout to die, i was going to unveil my deception but we left off right as the assassin was going to kill me, so i couldnt a.k.a. it wasnt my turn, and so i was wondering since by logic she has a current i.q. of 10 should she be able to function as a character? whats the effect of 1 int?

I'm really struggling to understand what the point of this little charade is supposed to be.

How does it help to trick the boss into thinking you've betrayed your party if you also trick your own party into believing it? How is that not functionally equivalent to actually betraying your party? Considering that you're now in PVP, I would say it isn't different enough.

Was this just a ploy to save yourself and leave your party to fight the boss alone? In that case, there was no deception; you just straight up betrayed your party. Maybe you thought the party couldn't hope to beat this boss, so you tricked them into chasing you and intentionally left the tank to die while you led the rest of the party away to safety? That's still at least a partial betrayal, and a pretty poor plan if you can't stay alive long enough to complete it.

Why didn't you just try to convince everyone to flee the fight?

[denthor]

Ok your assassin lost the ability to spot you.

Cats know how to stealth so she may be able to stealth and stalk you.

Wisdom she may not remember why she's mad at you.

If you have the bluff skill you might be able to convince her that you're showing her to safety. The Assassin needs 3 Rounds all the while you are taking advantage and disarming what's in her hand who stronger?

Because the wisdom score so low a fourth level fear spell should make her flee in Terror remember she'd have to roll a natural 20 to get a DC 18 result my math may be off but you get the idea.

Throw a copper piece see if she goes after the shiny object. She has the intelligence of a cat if she is a good role player she will play a cat.

[Erit]

Throw a copper piece see if she goes after the shiny object. She has the intelligence of a cat if she is a good role player she will play a cat.

I think the simple fact that the question being posed is "How can I stop an assassin with 1 int because the DM is still letting them operate on all cylinders" demonstrates that roleplaying is not the answer here.

[Necroticplague]

Three rounds, death attack. The save's DC would be in the toilet though because of its ****ty scaling and dependency on the Intelligence modifier that has just been tanked.

That doesn't follow. An attack has to be a Sneak Attack before it can be a Death Attack, and I'm questioning how a solo assassin is even getting Sneak Attack on a person who knows they're there. Plus, all the caveats on Death Attack itself make this incredibly unlikely.


If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.


However, small wrinkle in the DM's judgement. I forget where it's written, but entities with an intelligence less than three are ineligible for class levels. Depending on the interpretation of that, any class abilities one has cease to be usable at that time. The assassin has the mental faculties of a camel or a purple worm right now, and that's in the PHB on page nine. I'd like to see him dispute that.

Fortunately, I do know the source of the rule you're talking about, and trying to use this has several massive holes in it. It's in the section on adding templates to creatures'

eading a Template

A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature ’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as “Same as the base creature.”
....
...
..
.

Level Adjustment

This entry is a modifier to the base creature’s level adjustment. Any level adjustment is meaningless unless the creature retains a high enough Intelligence (minimum 3) to gain class levels after applying the template. Said holes are at least:
1. The rule is only in the context of LA for creatures after a template has been applied. This says absolutely nothing about creatures with low INT via other methods, so to try and use it like that is to take the line horribly, horribly out of context.
2.It only says they need INT over 3 to gain class levels, not to have class levels. So if you already have class levels, low INT doesn't disqualify you from them, just stop you from gaining more.

[Rothgar Ironmit]

In I think savage species if im correct it said a creature with a intelligence of below 3 is not playable but i think that meant only the monster races

[Erit]

That doesn't follow. An attack has to be a Sneak Attack before it can be a Death Attack, and I'm questioning how a solo assassin is even getting Sneak Attack on a person who knows they're there. Plus, all the caveats on Death Attack itself make this incredibly unlikely.





Fortunately, I do know the source of the rule you're talking about, and trying to use this has several massive holes in it. It's in the section on adding templates to creatures'
Said holes are at least:
1. The rule is only in the context of LA for creatures after a template has been applied. This says absolutely nothing about creatures with low INT via other methods, so to try and use it like that is to take the line horribly, horribly out of context.
2.It only says they need INT over 3 to gain class levels, not to have class levels. So if you already have class levels, low INT doesn't disqualify you from them, just stop you from gaining more.

Huh. I'd legitimately forgotten the Sneak Attack aspect of that; never played assassin because I don't see a point to putting the class features on a PC, but a friend of mine is utterly obsessed with anything that has "assassin" in the name.

And fair point on the intelligence ruling, but nonetheless I'd love to see a DM worth the position rationalize someone having access to something like precision damage when they have the cognitive faculties of a pack animal. RAW it, certainly, but reasoning is very key to DMs in my opinion.

[Necroticplague]

And fair point on the intelligence ruling, but nonetheless I'd love to see a DM worth the position rationalize someone having access to something like precision damage when they have the cognitive faculties of a pack animal. RAW it, certainly, but reasoning is very key to DMs in my opinion.

Honestly, it's not that hard to rationalize. At that low INT, you're too stupid to learn anything new that's high-order. However, you're skills you already know have been drilled into you by practice so you can do them even at that low INT level. Heck, IRL, people have managed to perform feats of athletic prowess after being knocked unconcious simply because muscle memory+unconcious parts of the brain was strong enough to keep them going without concious mental input for a bit.

[Erit]

Honestly, it's not that hard to rationalize. At that low INT, you're too stupid to learn anything new that's high-order. However, you're skills you already know have been drilled into you by practice so you can do them even at that low INT level. Heck, IRL, people have managed to perform feats of athletic prowess after being knocked unconcious simply because muscle memory+unconcious parts of the brain was strong enough to keep them going without concious mental input for a bit.

Yes, but Sneak Attack/Death Attack mention actively searching for a vulnerability and exploiting it. You can't do that on muscle memory without dictating that every creature ever has exactly the same vulnerability to exploit, in which case why doesn't every class have Sneak or Death Attack?

[Crake]

This would normally be the sort of thing they would write into feeblemind as a consequence of low int. It explains other factors that will occur, but nothing about losing class features. As for people asking how she is sneak attacking, depending on their level, the assassin could quite easily have hide in plain sight and an amazing hide/move silently and OP has too little spot/listen to compete. At level 12 (when assassins get hide in plain sight) you could easily afford +15 magic item, +2 masterwork, 15 ranks, and at least 5 dex, that comes out to +37. Without a bonus of at least +19 to spot, the assassin can literally disappear right before your eyes.

[Necroticplague]

Yes, but Sneak Attack/Death Attack mention actively searching for a vulnerability and exploiting it. You can't do that on muscle memory without dictating that every creature ever has exactly the same vulnerability to exploit, in which case why doesn't every class have Sneak or Death Attack?

Muscle memory becomes the main thing when you're flat-out unconcious. With INT 1, you still have some brain left, so you can still go through the list of things that identify 'weak point' you've gone through all the effort to remember. The sheer speed at which it can be done in combat would seem to indicate that it is already reducable into very basic heuristics by it's nature. You might lose the ability to properly think of why you're going through the steps, but you still know the steps themselves. Even creatures with no int score at all can act on instincts, and Sneak Attack's status as a Natural Ability (instead of Extraordinary) would seem to indicate it exists at a similar level. Birds fly, fish swim, and brother, I hurt people.

[denthor]

What does the players handbook say about a 1 intelligence and wisdom thought it is like some kind of jelly

[Necroticplague]

What does the players handbook say about a 1 intelligence and wisdom thought it is like some kind of jelly

Most Oozes are mindless (int-), like zombies or skeletons.

[Renevad]

ok thanks guys, this has been alot of help, ive more or less seen enough evidence that ive accepted it, the dm said that im op and i find that very funny, due to the fact that she rolled an attack roll over forty and is going to do around 60 damage, all i did was something that the dm made completely ineffective *sigh* well its good i grabbed that perk where you can swap damage with your familiar XD, once again thanks for the help TTYL.

[denthor]

A request please let us know how things turned out.

[Renevad]

gotcha, ile send the results when we get done with the next game, as always wish me luck XD.