Druid Questions

[PeteNutButter]

I've seen a good number of campaigns run in 5e now(player and DM), and yet despite my experience I haven't really seen much of the Druid class. So I was considering playing one next, but I'm not too sure how they play. I've only ever seen them in play at low levels, so it's all theorycrafting for me.

I've heard the general consensus is land > moon, because spell casting is greater than wildshape, yet the land abilities don't impress me: Short rest recovery like a wizard and increased spells prepared. I feel like the moon tactic would be better for those levels it's amazing and the Druid base is still quite formidable as a full caster.

Basically, I'm asking for anecdotally what it means to play a Druid of each subclass. Does it feel most like a wizard or a gish or a cleric, or all/any of the above? Thanks in advance for any responses.

EDIT: I mostly enjoy playing gish builds as I like both the danger of melee and the option of spells. Can a Druid (moon or otherwise) do this?

[busterswd]

They're both primary casters with extreme spell flexibility. Moon is amazing at melee before other classes get extra attack, and fair to middling from level 6 on. There's still useful tricks Wildshape can give a caster that's not trying to beat things down (among others, the ability to shift into an owl, fly away without provoking opportunity attacks and land somewhere much harder to get to is great). Land has more spell variety, which is a nice bonus; you get some tricks you wouldn't normally get, and with Druids, the ability to have even more spells prepared is always welcome. Additionally, natural recovery gives you a lot of bang for your buck, considering how well low level Druid spells can scale.

If you favor Gish, a Moon Druid is generally going to be a great candidate for self Polymorph, as his concentration save is going to be something he'll want to bolster anyway.

Still, your most devastating tricks as a Moon Druid are from your spell list, until you hit level 20.

[JumboWheat01]

Still, your most devastating tricks as a Moon Druid are from your spell list, until you hit level 20.

Even at level 20 as a Moon Druid, you still get a lot of powerful and devastating tricks from your spell list, as long as it's not a spell with a material item that has a cost. Druids have a godly capstone, where they can ignore any somatic, vocal or non-cost listed material cost of a spell, no matter their form. It's like having a Sorcerer's Subtle Spell and a spell focus shoved into your body and set to on all the time.

[Fuzzy Logic]

I've been DMing for a moon druid in my current campaign from levels 3 to 10 so far. Here's what I've noticed:
Wildshape has been equally as useful out of combat as in, giant eagle for fast travel, birds for recon, and rats and cats for spying. As we've reached higher level she's been using it less in combat but one of her favourite tricks was flaming sphere or moonbeam then Wildshape into combat form and wade in. One memorable encounter was her summoning 8 wolves then morphing into a dire wolf and tearing some vampire spawn apart with pack tactics. Her spells have really been an eye opener, she nearly trivialized a pirate ship encounter with a spell I can't remember the name of, control water maybe? And last game the player playing the party wizard threw a little fit for when he saw how much damage blight did. I've dmed one game for a land druid but the player playing her usually plays fighters and hasn't really bitten into the class yet. Hope that helps!

[Christian]

I'm not sure land druids are better than moon druids; I think they're just easier to play well. There's a level 2-4 sweet spot, and possibly a couple of others, where the moon druid can be effective with the combat strategy "round 1: bonus action wildshape; action kill things. round 2+: bonus action heal self if badly injured, or wildshape again if knocked back to normal form; action kill things." Through most of your adventuring career as a moon druid, you'll want to stick a post-it note to the front of your character sheet that says, "Remember--you're a primary spellcaster!" As long as you keep that in mind, and make smart prepared spell selections, good choices on when to cast and when to wildshape, and what to wildshape into, you'll do just fine.

Land druids have it both harder and easier, in some ways. The broader spell list and limited short rest spell recovery gives them some cushion for strategic mistakes, and potential for high effectiveness if the adventuring day isn't too long. Without the combat wild shape to fall back on, they are kind of working without a net, and especially if there's more to do than expected before a long rest can happen, they can run out of really useful tactical options. The moon druid has a pretty hard floor for that, especially if short rests are available; but that floor comes with a ceiling, so make sure you don't get in the habit of putting yourself in that box. It's a really seductive trap, especially if you can't shake the memory of wiping the floor of enemies on your own at level 2 as a brown bear. That'll happen, but level 2 doesn't last long ...

[Georlik]

Basically, I'm asking for anecdotally what it means to play a Druid of each subclass. Does it feel most like a wizard or a gish or a cleric, or all/any of the above? Thanks in advance for any responses.

EDIT: I mostly enjoy playing gish builds as I like both the danger of melee and the option of spells. Can a Druid (moon or otherwise) do this?

I've played and DM'ed several Moon Druids up to level 10.
At level 2 and 10 they gain huge spikes in damage and survivability. Their playstyle is more of a tactical tank. Basically you have to make 2 choices through any encounter:
1) What spell shall I cast before morphing into most powerful CR-appropriate form (Brown Bear, Dire Wolf/ Constrictor Snake, Polar Bear/ Giant Scorpion/ Elemental).
2) Does the situation require me to cast a spell so I shall switch out to the humanoid form?
Basically that is it. You may say that Moon Circle is still a full spell-caster and also can use his forms for utility. But in the actuall play most Moon Druids I've seen (as well as myself) tend to use the forms sparingly. Look up any World of Warcraft Guardian Druid video and you will get how it plays out.
P.S.: I actually enjoyed grunting and puffing and drawing some pictures in the mud in order to communicate with my teammates, as well as a more simplistic combat Wildshape implicates, but YMMV.

I've seen 2 Land Druids in action at level 10-11, and played one myself at level 8.
Land circle doesn't offer such spikes in power as Moon Circle does, But most Land spells provide unique options for druids. Thier playstyle is more of an utility caster with a trickster mindset. They have tons of choices to make (as they have to switch their spells mid-encounter and also change into beasts when required). More often than not Land Druid start the encounter on their terms. F.ex.: You may think that Spider Climb (offered by several Land Splell Lists) is redundant with Wildshape Forms, but it is priceless for setting celling ambushes together with your teammates (given some preparation time). Land Druid are also more unrestricted in their usage of Wildshapes - they lose no combat power by scouting, transporting or simply goofing around in animal forms. Can they tank as effectivly? No. As any other caster Land Druids try to play it smart. They may have Shillelagh and decent AC but after first 4 levels melee attacks are rarely used even with a staff of striking. Think Merlin from "The Sword in the Stone".

TL;DR:
If you want to posess a universal solution - play a Moon Druid.
If you want to adapt to any situation - play a Land Druid.

P.S.: There is also much to be said about Summoning and Druid Roles in the party, but I think this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397940-5e-Druid-Handbook-Land-amp-Moon) covers it pretty well.

[PeteNutButter]

Thanks everyone for quick responses. One follow up question then: is there a way to multiclass in such a way that wildshape remains effective or is it a trap? I could see one level of barb giving rage and AC from con as useful but then you are one level behind your next wild shape. A couple levels of paladin could let you smite while in form to keep your damage relevant, but again setting you further behind on form progression... Feels like a trap, no?

[Georlik]

Feels like a trap, no?

Define "trap".
There is no way you will deal more damage than optimized Fighter.
Wildshape is effective in tanking (for Moon Druid) and utility (for Land Druid).

[PeteNutButter]

Define "trap".
There is no way you will deal more damage than optimized Fighter.
Wildshape is effective in tanking (for Moon Druid) and utility (for Land Druid).

Got it. Thanks folks.

[Citan]

I've seen a good number of campaigns run in 5e now(player and DM), and yet despite my experience I haven't really seen much of the Druid class. So I was considering playing one next, but I'm not too sure how they play. I've only ever seen them in play at low levels, so it's all theorycrafting for me.

I've heard the general consensus is land > moon, because spell casting is greater than wildshape, yet the land abilities don't impress me: Short rest recovery like a wizard and increased spells prepared. I feel like the moon tactic would be better for those levels it's amazing and the Druid base is still quite formidable as a full caster.

I really don't understand where you did hear/read that from.
Moon Druid has some levels when you feel a bit stalling, because your Wild Shape options do not expand, but you are still a full spellcaster.
And at highest levels, Moon totally trumps Land imo. The fact that you can cast Druid spells while wildshape is MUCH better when you can Wild Shape unlimited times.
And Land Druid can wildshape only into low CR creatures, whereas Moon Druid can up to CR 6.
Sooo... My personal view would rather be the opposite: if you intend (and manage) to play a single-class Druid up to 18, I'd play Moon Druid rather than Land any day.

Not that I'd say that Land Druids are bad though. Natural recovery is a very strong benefit, and they still get the awesome Druid spell list to play with. The additional spells also grab some great spells that would be otherwise unavailable, so it allows you to expand your options to best fit your playstyle.
And you get the same "cast spells while Wild Shape" benefit, which can bring great fun with a bit of smarts (just Wild shaping as a mouse, hiding into a tree hole no far from enemies then casting Conjure Animals before hastily hiding away can do great).

I just have the feeling that it's a slightly underwhelming "alternative option" designed for those that just don't care about Wild Shaping at all, but just wanted the nature-themed caster.

Thanks everyone for quick responses. One follow up question then: is there a way to multiclass in such a way that wildshape remains effective or is it a trap? I could see one level of barb giving rage and AC from con as useful but then you are one level behind your next wild shape. A couple levels of paladin could let you smite while in form to keep your damage relevant, but again setting you further behind on form progression... Feels like a trap, no?
Depends. If you interest yourself in Wild Shape solely for in-fighting capabilities provided by beast forms, sure, it's a trap most of the time once you get past character lvl 5-6.

If you like Wild Shape in itself because of all the options it gives you in scounting/escaping/spying/cunning, it will not be a trap. Ever.

Even a Land Druid 2 dip (meaning 1/4 CR) could open some interesting combinations, as long as DM agrees (but I don't see why not): as another caster, dip for Wild Shape. Casts a successful and powerful concentration spell, wild shape as a rat, then clench yourself inside the armor of your powerful tank friend to protect from a heavy hitter: logically, no enemy can hit you anymore with weapon attacks nor spells requiring to see you (you'd still suffer from AOE spells).
Or run away (or burrow) and hide to avoid AOE spells then make a circle around before going out of Wild Shape in a safer place...

More generally, people seem to underestimate the potential of low-CR shaping, but crafty people can do many great things with it.

[Christian]

I think he was asking more about characters who are primarily moon druids dipping other classes to improve their wildshape effectiveness. I haven't seen this at the table, so I'm spitballing, but that doesn't sound very effective. As a moon druid, your wildshapes are getting bumped fairly regularly already. Although some of the bumps are better than others, multiclassing is pushing all of those bumps back one of more levels; I suspect that, after going back to grabbing druid levels, you'll likely wish you'd never left. Bumps happen for moonies at:
2nd level: wildshape and combat wildshape
4th level: wildshape into creatures with a swim speed
6th level: wildshape into CR2 creatures
8th level: wildshape into creatures with a fly speed
9th level: wildshape into CR3 creatures
10th level: wildshape into elementals
12th level: wildshape into CR4 creature
15th level: wildshape into CR5 creature
18th level: wildshape into CR6 creature (i.e. a mammoth), cast spells in wildshape
20th level: unlimited wildshape

I can't imagine even thinking about multiclassing until after 10th level, and picking up more than 2 levels of anything means giving up that sweet 18th level casting in wildshape ability. Even taking just two levels of something means pushing that back to 20th; unless you don't think the campaign will get as far as 18th level, I'd have trouble justifying that as well.

Dipping druid can be good. Druids dipping other classes, not so much. (Land druids do better, I suppose, but even more than moon druids suffer the other major drawback, shared with any primary caster--delaying access to higher-level spells.)

[CursedRhubarb]

Moon Druids get a lot of love but once you start facing casters that can use 6th level spells they need to be careful. A disintegrate spell becomes available when Moon Druids only get up to CR 3 shapes and 10d6 + 40 can drop most, if not all of them since their hp (from what I could find with just a quick check so may be off) tends to be in the 50's. And since they hit 0hp before they would chance back it turns them to dust.
Early game they can rock, after mid level they need to be careful.

[Citan]

I think he was asking more about characters who are primarily moon druids dipping other classes to improve their wildshape effectiveness. I haven't seen this at the table, so I'm spitballing, but that doesn't sound very effective.
I can't imagine even thinking about multiclassing until after 10th level, and picking up more than 2 levels of anything means giving up that sweet 18th level casting in wildshape ability. Even taking just two levels of something means pushing that back to 20th; unless you don't think the campaign will get as far as 18th level, I'd have trouble justifying that as well.

Dipping druid can be good. Druids dipping other classes, not so much. (Land druids do better, I suppose, but even more than moon druids suffer the other major drawback, shared with any primary caster--delaying access to higher-level spells.)
Aaaah ok you're right indeed.
Then I agree.
Not so much because no other class would bring little to the table.
But rather because 18th and 20th level benefits are so good that I don't see much that would justify it.

However, for a campaign when you are sure to never reach such a high level, or if you are really ready to dismiss them because your playstyle can do without, there are (few) good ones.
Mainly Rogue 2 (Expertise for Grapple/Shove, Cunning Action), Paladin 2 (smite on hit), Cleric 2 (although most Domains are not so great for a Druid), Wizard 2 (Diviner or Bladesinger are great) or Warlock 2 (Armor of Agathys, Invocations).

Technically, there are some builds that could be nice that go much further than 2 levels, but then you would actually be making a gish multiclass build that just happens to pick Druid as caster class because you like his spells more than other casters.