Question about druid wildshape and feats.

[EndocrineBandit]

A druid in our party has both frozen wild shape and dragon wild shape. Can he use these feats in conjunction with each other to become say, A half-chaos dragon frost salamander?

[Beheld]

Wildshape allows your to turn into creatures as Alternate Form.

Alternate Form doesn't allow you to turn into templated creatures.

While you can turn into a creature that is a legal target for either, but you can't turn into a creature with a template at all.

[FearlessGnome]

Absolutely not. Frozen Wildshape only grants him the option of turning into a Magical Beast with the Cold subtype. Dragon Wildshape only allows him to turn into a dragon. Neither allows him to apply a template to anything he turn into.

[Necroticplague]

A druid in our party has both frozen wild shape and dragon wild shape. Can he use these feats in conjunction with each other to become say, A half-chaos dragon frost salamander?

1. Can't Wild Shape into templated creatures.
2.Even if you could, then in this case, Frozen Wild Shape is unnecessary, as a half-dragon frost salamander would be a Dragon, not a Magical Beast.

[EndocrineBandit]

I do not see a reason why as to not? Or because it does not state that you can, you cannot?

[Beheld]

I do not see a reason why as to not? Or because it does not state that you can, you cannot?

It's because the rules specifically say that you can't:


This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.


A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

[FearlessGnome]

As Beheld said, the Wildshape ability is based on Alternate Form. Alternate Form says you cannot turn into anything with a template, and Wildshape does not change that. Neither Frozen Wildshape nor Dragon Wildshape changes this.

If this player is using templates with his wildshape form, then either he's cheating or he doesn't understand the rules, but it makes Wildshape much more powerful, and he should stop it immediately. Druid is very strong already without breaking the rules. Consider the Half-Dragon template. Wildshape is plenty strong without it, but it can be added to almost anything, and it gives +8 strength for free, plus a breath weapon and immunity to an energy type that he can choose when he uses Wildshape.

[AnachroNinja]

Essentially yes, because it doesn't say you can, you can't. Each feat expands on the possibilities allowed within the standard wildshape. So if the feat does not say you can do something, you still follow the standard wildshape restrictions.

On a different note, it is rare that such template creatures would be necessary or even really advantageous.

[Beheld]

As Beheld said, the Wildshape ability is based on Alternate Form. Alternate Form says you cannot turn into anything with a template, and Wildshape does not change that. Neither Frozen Wildshape nor Dragon Wildshape changes this.

If this player is using templates with his wildshape form, then either he's cheating or he doesn't understand the rules, but it makes Wildshape much more powerful, and he should stop it immediately. Druid is very strong already without breaking the rules. Consider the Half-Dragon template. Wildshape is plenty strong without it, but it can be added to almost anything, and it gives +8 strength for free, plus a breath weapon and immunity to an energy type that he can choose when he uses Wildshape.

More importantly, it can be take multiple times as long as you jam some other type change template between. So Half Dragon Half Troll Half Dragon Half Troll Half Dragon Half Troll Half Dragon Leopards still only have 4HD, but have +56 Str compared to a normal Leopard.

[EndocrineBandit]

3.5 PHB says it's as per Polymorph, But the SRD says it's as per alternate form.

[torrasque666]

3.5 PHB says it's as per Polymorph, But the SRD says it's as per alternate form.
Check the errata. My copy (Aug. 2012, deluxe reprinting) says Alternate Form.

[EndocrineBandit]

I see I see.. That makes sense. I'm not sure the print date on our copy of the PHB. I'll point it out to my GM and see how he feels about it.

[eggynack]

It doesn't really matter if you use the outdated polymorph version or the errata based alternate form version. Polymorph is based on alter self, and alter self says, "You cannot take the form of any creature with a template." So, you can't because the rules say you can't, regardless of source. Pretty straightforward.