Why is Oriental Adventures Not More of a Thing?

[illyahr]

I've been programming in options from Oriental Adventures into the Hero Lab character generator and I have to ask a serious question.

Why don't more people know about/use this supplement?

The races are fairly well balanced. Humans get a clan and permanent class skill, Hengeyokai have a shifter's versatility, Nezumi are fast and sturdy and Vanara get boosts to casting stats.

The classes are really well balanced also. The Samurai class from OA has a versatile mix of abilities, including 4+Int skill points with a good list of class skills (like Iaijutsu Focus), bonus feats based on clan, and good Fort and Will saves. The Shaman is basically a Cleric with some bonus feats. The Shugenja and Wu Jen are Tier 4 (maybe 3) and Tier 2, respectively. The Sohei gains a decent selection of spells, d10 Hit Die, Medium BAB, good Fort and Will saves, and the ability to boost their Str, Dex, and Speed and make additional attacks in a round.

There are also an amazing variety of PrC's, including: Blade Dancer (+30 to Balance, Jump and Tumble by 10th level plus a tripling of your base speed? What?), Henshin Mystic (soft-style martial arts monk with blindsight and SA's), Iaijutsu Master (maximize that damage from Iaijutsu Focus), Ninja Spy (rogue with all good saves, skill buffs, and stealth options), and Shintao Monk (hard-style martial arts monk with bonus feats and SA's).

As far as feats go, it includes an amazing array of BFC strike and grapple techniques. Falling Star Strike allows you to blind your target. Many of the "monk" feats from CW are drawn directly from OA with little change. On top of that, OA has Martial Arts Mastery feats that range from increasing your pressure point feat DC's (Stunning Fist, Freezing the Lifeblood etc.) to increasing your effective size when it comes to your unarmed damage.

Most, if not all, of the weapons allow for some manner of BFC. With the amount of weapons that can trip, getting Iaijutsu Focus to go off is fairly easy. Several of the Samurai clans even allow you to pick up Improved Trip as a bonus feat.

So is there something I'm missing? This is one of the most balanced books I have had the good fortune to read through. Sure, the spellcasters probably still have superiority (it's D&D, this is inevitable), but the amount of options for martials is impressive.

[J-H]

It's 3.0, so a lot of the content has been rendered obsolete by 3.5 books.

Also, I suspect ToB far surpasses the options given by OA for melee characters.

[Big Fau]

It was a precursor to Legend of the Five Rings' own publications. It was also the only book of theirs that WotC published directly.

[Jowgen]

I personally use it from time to time.

I think part of the reason it lacks popularity is the flavor. Not everyone is a fan of the japan thing, and others don't feel it mixes well with the flavor predominant in their campaign world.

Then there is the 3.0 thing. Quite a lot of things in it need updating, and while there is a 3.5 update, you need to dig into Dragon mag to get it, and for some people that's a deal breaker.

Lastly, I think it might have a bad rep balance wise. The Chahar Aina and Dastana seriously skew the way armor works, egg-shell granades:dust are straight up broken with no save blindness, and some of the magic items are way too cheap for what they do (when not including the 3.5 update). That's what the book is most known for afaik, so people shy away from it perhaps.

[Âmesang]

I made a note somewhere to keep Oriental Adventures in mind because they have an option for increasing the defensive bonuses granted by Tumble due to increased ranks (which, as it so happens, scales with the bonuses presented in the Epic Level Handbook).

Since I've a copy of the 3.5 update I'd like to run a game with it sometime, but aside from the aforementioned bonus I think all I've used it for was an attempt to stat out a Dynasty Warriors-inspired Guan Yu (https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/dnd/deities_guan_yu.htm). :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

Well, it is a setting-specific 3.0 book. Setting-specific books are often underused, and you have to go digging into Dragon Magazine to get the 3.5 update.


Humans get a clan and permanent class skill
Only if they're from a particular clan in the Rokugan setting. In any other campaign, you wouldn't get it.


Hengeyokai have a shifter's versatility
If you don't have the Dragon update, they're LA +1.


Vanara get boosts to casting stats.
If you do have the Dragon update, they don't get any ability score mods at all.


The Samurai class from OA has a versatile mix of abilities, including 4+Int skill points with a good list of class skills (like Iaijutsu Focus), bonus feats based on clan, and good Fort and Will saves.
It was updated into a piece of crap in Complete Warrior.

[awa]

the complete warrior version is so different its not really the same class other then the fact that both have katanas

love nezuma their my favorite race

[Milo v3]

For me, when I played D&D I didn't use it much since it was setting specific, though the shapechanging race was rather cool. Now I don't use it much because it's 3.0 and I play PF.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm a fan. Lots of really awesome flavor, IMO, if you're willing to wrench it out of the setting and incorporate it into your own (which is exactly what I did :smallwink:.)

That said, it's as others have said; no one thing is at fault but a multitude of little things add up. Between being a 3.0 source with its official update in a dragon mag, having some material that can be a little dodgy balance wise, being remarkably setting specific (with a setting that discounts almost half of the material in the book :smallsigh:), and having a lot of asian flavor when so many prefer western fantasy for this particular game, it just gets nixed from most people's go-to list one way or another. It would be cool to see a primarily OA game but you'll have a bear of a time finding a DM for it unless you decide to run it yourself.

For this board in particular, it's probably noteworthy that there's not much in the book that's terribly impressive to high-op players either. Even if you combine both versions of samurai (OA and CW) it's still underwhelming. A lot of the prestige classes give features that are either purchasable or lack-luster (+X competence bonus to acrobatic skills? Seriously?) I mean, they don't completely blow for the most part but there's just nothing that says "wow!" in there either. Like I said, great flavor but that's about it.

[Fizban]

The classes are really well balanced also. The Samurai class from OA has a versatile mix of abilities, including 4+Int skill points with a good list of class skills (like Iaijutsu Focus), bonus feats based on clan, and good Fort and Will saves. The Shaman is basically a Cleric with some bonus feats. The Shugenja and Wu Jen are Tier 4 (maybe 3) and Tier 2, respectively. The Sohei gains a decent selection of spells, d10 Hit Die, Medium BAB, good Fort and Will saves, and the ability to boost their Str, Dex, and Speed and make additional attacks in a round.
Samurai is basically a Fighter that's worse at bonus feats, in the sense that most people will never recommend pure Fighter and Samurai isn't as reliable for feat dipping. The non-Shaman casters are reprinted in other books, and none of the casters get access to other splatbooks without brewing your own list. Sohei is garbage, all the problems of a monk, paladin, and barbarian, with none of them working together (it's a great idea though, I made myself a fix).

There are also an amazing variety of PrC's, including: Blade Dancer (+30 to Balance, Jump and Tumble by 10th level plus a tripling of your base speed? What?), Henshin Mystic (soft-style martial arts monk with blindsight and SA's), Iaijutsu Master (maximize that damage from Iaijutsu Focus), Ninja Spy (rogue with all good saves, skill buffs, and stealth options), and Shintao Monk (hard-style martial arts monk with bonus feats and SA's).
The PrCs range from garbage to updated somewhere else, with plenty of meh in-between. Aside from Iajutsu Master's obvious damage, the only one I've ever seen mentioned in any real capacity is Blade Dancer for buffing jump to make Dragoon builds.

As far as feats go, it includes an amazing array of BFC strike and grapple techniques. Falling Star Strike allows you to blind your target. Many of the "monk" feats from CW are drawn directly from OA with little change. On top of that, OA has Martial Arts Mastery feats that range from increasing your pressure point feat DC's (Stunning Fist, Freezing the Lifeblood etc.) to increasing your effective size when it comes to your unarmed damage.
Many feats are bad, monk feats in particular requiring ridiculous feat trees you can't even pay for if you wanted to. I think there's one or two goodies that didn't get reprinted but I can't seem to notice them.

Most, if not all, of the weapons allow for some manner of BFC. With the amount of weapons that can trip, getting Iaijutsu Focus to go off is fairly easy. Several of the Samurai clans even allow you to pick up Improved Trip as a bonus feat.
Tripping has nothing to do with Iajutsu Focus. Feinting with Bluff doesn't work either, since they have to be flat-footed (not just denied dex). Some DMs may not like the dual/reach/not even two-handed weapons but Spiked Chain beats them all regardless, and as mentioned above Dust grenades are completely broken. Dastana and Cahar-Aina are offensively broken, even if the DM reads the medium armor proficiency requirement for Cahar-Aina as implying a speed penalty, Dastana alone will invalidate the entire medium armor section, who even wrote these (see also AaEG)?

So is there something I'm missing? This is one of the most balanced books I have had the good fortune to read through. Sure, the spellcasters probably still have superiority (it's D&D, this is inevitable), but the amount of options for martials is impressive.
Balanced? In the sense that it doesn't particularly increase caster power. Personally I find it incredibly annoying how often people suggest Iajutsu Focus as a damage boost for optimizing, Factotum in particular no one can seem to tell me how it manages to pull it's weight in a brawl without IF. As for martial, every single thing in the books is eclipsed by Tome of Battle so hard it's not even funny.

I too like a ton of the stuff in OA. Hengeyokai, Nezumi, Spirit Folk feel like they should be useful. Samurai is a perfectly fine foundation if you line up your build with it's strengths. Sohei would be great if you fixed all it's broken abilities. Shapeshifter actually lets you make a non-polymorph shapeshifting arcanist, if only it didn't annihilate your spellcasting. Shintao Monk is the only prestige class about being a Monk besides Tattooed Monk, except Shintao didn't get reprinted. If you jump to chapter 11 for the Rokugan stuff there's more PrCs, most with at least one good mechanic otherwise marooned in a terrible 3.0 class. The Iajutsu Focus skill itself is a very interesting idea about making skill checks matter in combat, the only problem being that literally everything else in 3.x is built without regard for it.

Feats are greatly improved by the update (as are many things, it's no measly errata). Great Armor fills out the armor table, more outfit descriptions are always nice, and having a base price for Elephants is huge. Liquid Smoke goes on every single character I make that can carry it, and Sleeping Fire can probably be McGuyver'd into all sorts of stuff. There are some great spells that weren't reprinted like Detect Curse, Detect Disease, Substitution, and Weapon Bless. Items ranging from easy Plane Shift for Artificers in the magic weapon section, to Augury/Divination 1/day, to a mask that Animates Dead for you (based on your own level even) and a piece of paper that seems like it'd be a "choose your own figurine of wondrous power" if it wasn't lacking major information.

The monsters, eh, varies, some have CRs way over their HD and there are some SLA's in places they have no business being (very MM2). Lung dragons sound cooler than they end up being when you read their stats and fluff and a lot of traditional oriental monsters just seem derpy to western sensibilities. Still, you get a spare Hag, four types of lower level undead in the Gaki that your players will never recognize/expect/be able to deal with, a bunch of snake people, a bunch of Oni and Shadowlands Oni you can play around with, a medium octopus with 20 str that wields up to 7 weapons and is smarter than humans, and an index of giant toads (most reprinted elsewhere).

The problem is simply that most campaigns even with an established setting don't actually want to stick to a specific theme, generally because there are 5 people at the table and odds are not all of them want something so narrow. Forgotten Realms expands until it has regions for everything (see Unapproachable East for oriental-ish stuff) and Eberron specifcally says you should be able to throw the kitchen sink. Even Dragonlance has mysterious far off continents you could use to drop in whatever you want. The oriental culture angle is interesting specifically because it is exotic, it is not familiar, and keeping this theme means giving up a lot of your normal stuff, even if the players aren't the DM has to in order for it to work. In order to enjoy an OA game you need everyone at the table to be into the specific things that make it an OA game, clan politics and shadowlands and celestial bureaucracies etc. I like plenty of the mechanics but I can't say I'm intrested in clan politics or the rest of the book's version of the mythologies, so the most I'd be doing is pulling mechanics to sling around.

[BWR]

It was a precursor to Legend of the Five Rings' own publications. It was also the only book of theirs that WotC published directly.

Clarification: it was a precursor to AEG's d20 L5R stuff, published (apart from the Rokugan setting book) dual-stat with their roll & keep system; L5R had existed for a while before this. They supported both the d20 and the 2e R&K version simultaneously in each publication.


Why isn't OA more popular?
Mechanically? mostly covered.

Fluff-wise?
My guess is because it did a rather poor job of introducing L5R to a wider audience. Goodness knows I was not impressed when I first was introduced via OA - my interest came later when I read AEG's stuff. It was way too brief and generic to properly give one a feel for the setting, which is about the worst thing you can do when trying to showcase a setting.
There may also have been others who, like me, felt that OA should have been used to reintroduce Kara Tur

[Ashtagon]

I recall reading somewhere that AEG's official reason for dropping their d20 material in favour of a new edition of their own house system was that WotC refused to consider a 3.5e updated book for Oriental Adventures, locking their product line in to 3.0e rules at a time when everyone was all about wanting to play under 3.5re rules. That made their campaign setting a hard sell.

[illyahr]

For me, I think it's a point in OA's favor that there isn't any Tier 1 material. Having a character that can breeze through anything is just boring to me.

I've had to take a good look at some of the mechanics, since I have to make them work in the character generator, and not much really needs to be updated. WotC has a surprisingly poor track record when it comes to their own publications and game designs. The fact that they made some things so much worse in the name of "balance" (looking at you, Samurai) is telling. I have seen the Dragon Magazine update, and it doesn't change much other than some minor ability and feat updates. Why they felt the need to remove the stat adjustments from Vanara, I'll never know.

No, egg shell bombs aren't DC-less. They have a save DC of 10-13, far from broken.

I never said most of the stuff was powerful, I said it was balanced. No one class is immediately more powerful than another without serious optimization. WuJen hit Tier 2, but even that isn't too far outside the curve.

There is a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?186283-Flat-footing-compendium-(3-5)) on these forums for ways to make your target Flat-Footed. Get a Blurstrike weapon and you can trigger Iaijutsu Focus at will up to 10/day.

Other than that, some fairly good points were made. I'm glad I'm not the only one who appreciates what went into the book. Sure, background stuff might not make it into your game, but the book does basically tell you to take what you want from it.

[LTwerewolf]

No, egg shell bombs aren't DC-less. They have a save DC of 10-13, far from broken.


Read it again. The fort save is for the splash, not for the person hit.

[illyahr]

Read it again. The fort save is for the splash, not for the person hit.

So they do. Strong effect, but one that requires a ranged attack roll. It's no worse than an invisibility spell, since it only lasts long enough to get a couple good hits in or to let you get away.

[BWR]

I recall reading somewhere that AEG's official reason for dropping their d20 material in favour of a new edition of their own house system was that WotC refused to consider a 3.5e updated book for Oriental Adventures, locking their product line in to 3.0e rules at a time when everyone was all about wanting to play under 3.5re rules. That made their campaign setting a hard sell.

You'll have to ask the folks at AEG for confirmation but I was given the impression that d20 L5R didn't really sell. Most sales of their dual-stat books were to people interested in the R&K game (people like me who bought them because we saw 'ninja' and 'samurai' on the cover did exist, of course, but not in the numbers they'd hoped). And from what I've heard, R&K 3e was much desired. The joke was that in 2e you played the mooks your 1e characters killed.

[Âmesang]

If I remember correctly the first Oriental Adventures was originally intended for WORLD OF GREYHAWK® before being switched over to FORGOTTEN REALMS'® Kara-Tur.

I was fortunate enough to pick up a copy of the d20 Chainmail core rulebook which gives (sparse) details about Western Oerik, the Flananess being Eastern Oerik, which I believe would leave any semblance of a GREYHAWK® Oriental Adventures in the middle with the so-called "Celestial Imperium" or "Celestial Kingdom of Shaofeng," south of the orcish "Reich of Darak Urtag" which I would also love to learn more about (but I recall the first DRAGON Annual being equally sparse on details). Only modern reference I can still find is regarding the t’ien lung dragon, Han-Tan Chun, from Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, as well as some materials in at least one of the Oerth Journals.

EDIT: I forgot to mention in my previous post that I would like to someday play a sorcerer built off of the wu jen spell list just as a lark. :smallsmile: Underpowered, but it'd give the sorcerer some flavor to help further differentiate it from the wizard.

[SowelBlack]

Then there is the 3.0 thing. Quite a lot of things in it need updating, and while there is a 3.5 update, you need to dig into Dragon mag to get it, and for some people that's a deal breaker.


The issue to get is #318 (April 2004).

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I made a note somewhere to keep Oriental Adventures in mind because they have an option for increasing the defensive bonuses granted by Tumble due to increased ranks (which, as it so happens, scales with the bonuses presented in the Epic Level Handbook).

Since I've a copy of the 3.5 update I'd like to run a game with it sometime, but aside from the aforementioned bonus I think all I've used it for was an attempt to stat out a Dynasty Warriors-inspired Guan Yu (http://dnd.schadenfreudestudios.com/deities_guan_yu.htm). :smalltongue:

I highly recommend the L5R wiki as a fluff source. It's very well organized.

[CharonsHelper]

So they do. Strong effect, but one that requires a ranged attack roll. It's no worse than an invisibility spell, since it only lasts long enough to get a couple good hits in or to let you get away.

Ranged touch attacks are notoriously easy, especially if you're not a 1/2 BAB character with a mediocre Dex.

Invisibility has counters which you're generally expected to have by the time it's common (level 5-7ish) while the only counter to being blinded is Blind-Fight (which is only a soft counter). Plus, unless you're talking Greater Invisibility (by which point counters become very common) you only get 1 attack with it anyway.

In addition, in D&D you often are a group up against a single skilled foe plus mooks, so it becomes easy for one support character (bard etc.) to essentially shut down the skilled foe with Blindness every round, leaving them as easy pickings for the rest of the group, especially if a buddy has SA.

It's a very poorly designed item for the d20 system.

[awa]

the dust bomb is also dirt cheap even in a one on one fight its worthwhile against most level appropriate foes being blinded is way worse then fighting an invisible foe, because it effectively makes every foe invisible and halves your speed

[illyahr]

Ranged touch attacks are notoriously easy, especially if you're not a 1/2 BAB character with a mediocre Dex.

Invisibility has counters which you're generally expected to have by the time it's common (level 5-7ish) while the only counter to being blinded is Blind-Fight (which is only a soft counter). Plus, unless you're talking Greater Invisibility (by which point counters become very common) you only get 1 attack with it anyway.

In addition, in D&D you often are a group up against a single skilled foe plus mooks, so it becomes easy for one support character (bard etc.) to essentially shut down the skilled foe with Blindness every round, leaving them as easy pickings for the rest of the group, especially if a buddy has SA.

It's a very poorly designed item for the d20 system.

I did say it was stronger than usual. I would've called it just a ranged attack and priced it a bit higher. That being said, it being a strong item is actually why I like it. It's battlefield control without having to rely on a wizard. If someone does spend each round throwing these things, it's no different than a wizard chucking BFC spells every round, and the wizard's BFC will last longer so he doesn't even have to use a BFC spell every round. More like once an encounter, which is what the smoke bomb amounts to if used properly.

[P.F.]

So they do. Strong effect, but one that requires a ranged attack roll. It's no worse than an invisibility spell, since it only lasts long enough to get a couple good hits in or to let you get away.

It's basically the thing that the orb of x spells conjure. Non-magical, no save, ranged touch attack. Except it doesn't deal damage, and the status effect is better than sickened but not as good as dazed.

But of course, orb of x is fine, while eggshell grenades are "broken," because martials can't have nice things. :smallwink:

[CharonsHelper]

If someone does spend each round throwing these things, it's no different than a wizard chucking BFC spells every round,

Those allow saving throws.

In addition, why do you think that it would use up your entire turn to use? With Quickdraw it would be easy for someone with a two-handed weapon to throw it every turn with one attack and use their iterative attacks with their weapon. For a rogue or ninja with a bow that would be the way to go as every attack with the bow would get Sneak Attack in addition to the major bonuses to attack.


But of course, orb of x is fine, while eggshell grenades are "broken," because martials can't have nice things. :smallwink:

Borderline broken. There's a reason that Pathfinder has never included them. In addition, they are being used by 1/2 BAB classes with likely a mediocre DEX. There is a save against the extra effects - just not the damage.

Also, unlike eggshell grenades, they do keep you from making any other attacks during your turn.

[illyahr]

Those allow saving throws.

And the effect is more potent.


In addition, why do you think that it would use up your entire turn to use? With Quickdraw it would be easy for someone with a two-handed weapon to throw it every turn with one attack and use their iterative attacks with their weapon. For a rogue or ninja with a bow that would be the way to go as every attack with the bow would get Sneak Attack in addition to the major bonuses to attack.

Makes for an interesting build, doesn't it? I like them. Even if they need a couple tweaks, they are still a fun addition. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this point.


What is your take on the OA Samurai (we are going to ignore the CW one, they made it worse in almost every way)? I'm thinking a strong Tier 5. I have a couple ideas for builds that I want to try to see if I can push it into Tier 4.

[Nousos]

OA samurai is a Fighter with less bonus feats, a money saver weapon that grows with them, a higher will save, and more skill points. Building a decent one is completely dependent on feat choice, and unless you have the Rokugan books as an option, (this pains me to type) you are mostly better off with a fighter.

At least fighter has acf choices that give it actual class features to make it a useful dip for certain builds. If I recall correctly Rokugan sourcebooks have some great bonus feats for samurai, but the less feats hurts that build type.

[Jack_McSnatch]

It's fun to give a duskblade sneak attack and crossclass ranks in Iaijutsu. So fun I got banned from doing so again. Now my dm only allows IF if I'm a flat fighter

[Coidzor]

There's a reason that Pathfinder has never included them.

Yeah, that's not really saying much of anything considering Paizo's allergy to cribbing anything from 3.5 that wasn't in the PHB or DMG and the fact that someone rubberstamped Sacred Geometry, of all things.

And they hired SKR.

[illyahr]

OA samurai is a Fighter with less bonus feats, a money saver weapon that grows with them, a higher will save, and more skill points. Building a decent one is completely dependent on feat choice, and unless you have the Rokugan books as an option, (this pains me to type) you are mostly better off with a fighter.

At least fighter has acf choices that give it actual class features to make it a useful dip for certain builds. If I recall correctly Rokugan sourcebooks have some great bonus feats for samurai, but the less feats hurts that build type.

They also have an expanded Class Skill list, with social skills being among them.

Saying the fighter is good for dips is the same as saying monk is good for dips. It doesn't make the class good.

Mercurial Strike (Dragon #310) and Flick of the Wrist (CW) both give you ways to catch your opponent Flat-Footed for Iaijutsu Focus, as does the Blurstrike enchantment (which you can add yourself as you level up). More skill points per level and a larger class skill list gives the OA samurai an edge in skill challenges over the fighter. The OA samurai's Will saves make it more resistant to mind-affecting abilities and compulsions (which the fighter has to give up a feat for to use an ACF).

A high-level OA Samurai is at least still a viable option. Honestly, the only thing a Fighter does better at higher levels is pick up some more weapon tricks.


It's fun to give a duskblade sneak attack and crossclass ranks in Iaijutsu. So fun I got banned from doing so again. Now my dm only allows IF if I'm a flat fighter

That's just mean. :smallbiggrin:

[CharonsHelper]

Saying the fighter is good for dips is the same as saying monk is good for dips. It doesn't make the class good.

In 3.x prestige classes are just better than base classes anyway, especially for martials. A level or two of fighter is good to make sure that you can get into your first prestige class at 6, though on its own it's even weaker than most other core martial classes.

If you're going just a single base class, OA samurai is somewhat better than straight fighter, but you'd still be better off playing the 3.x multi-class/prestige game.


...and the fact that someone rubberstamped Sacred Geometry, of all things.

Oh - you'll get no argument from me that Pathfinder has its own balance issues. But most of the stuff they haven't yet converted over they avoided for a reason.

[Bohandas]

I blame the fact that people don't generally use the word "oriental" anymore

[Eno Remnant]

My group's actually been meaning to do an OA campaign, with me as DM - otherwise I'd build an Iaijutsu Master and kill everything. I'm a big fan of that PrC.

I think the reason it sees less play is, yeah, because it's 3.0. It tends to get overlooked.

[Mechalich]

Mechanics aren't the real problem with this book, the real problem is that this book is attached to a setting that is the property of a 3rd party publisher whose fans have limited cross-over with D&D fans. Worse, Oriental Adventurers is neither a wholly L5R book nor an attempt to build a new Asian-based setting that is functionally D&D. It's a mess and really is not sufficient to produce a functional Asian-based setting on its own. The book lacks a clearly defined purpose and doesn't deliver on what people would have hoped the book did.

[Thurbane]

It's fun to give a duskblade sneak attack and crossclass ranks in Iaijutsu. So fun I got banned from doing so again. Now my dm only allows IF if I'm a flat fighter

Since Iajutsu Focus is (bizarrely so, IMHO) not a trained only skill, if it's in play, technically every character out there that meets the activation reqs (drawing a weapon and striking a flat-footed foe) should get a free Cha check to increase their damage.

In my games, it is 100% designated as a trained-only skill, when it's in play.

[Bullet06320]

There may also have been others who, like me, felt that OA should have been used to reintroduce Kara Tur

I was disappointed when we didn't get much for Kara Tur in 3rd edition, but I have used a number of the L5R books to flavor my Kara Tur in my home Realms game

[Fizban]

Mechanics aren't the real problem with this book, the real problem is that this book is attached to a setting that is the property of a 3rd party publisher whose fans have limited cross-over with D&D fans. Worse, Oriental Adventurers is neither a wholly L5R book nor an attempt to build a new Asian-based setting that is functionally D&D. It's a mess and really is not sufficient to produce a functional Asian-based setting on its own. The book lacks a clearly defined purpose and doesn't deliver on what people would have hoped the book did.
I wouldn't put so much on being associated with the 3rd party publisher, but not being a full setting is actually a pretty big problem. There's another book with a similar issue: Ghostwalk. Single book, mostly mechanical but suggesting a pretty involved campaign setting.

When in doubt, blame laziness: if people want to play in a setting, they want a book that has enough detail they don't need to do anything. Oriental Adventures and Ghostwalk both suggest some very cool settings, but are mostly mechanics and require significant work to reach the standard set by familiar campaign settings with broad continental maps featuring multiple nations with named leaders and towns. Even better, as mechanics focused books they appeal to the mechanically minded person, who is less confident in their ability to construct a setting. So they set themselves up for a fall.

[Thurbane]

Mechanics aren't the real problem with this book, the real problem is that this book is attached to a setting that is the property of a 3rd party publisher whose fans have limited cross-over with D&D fans. Worse, Oriental Adventurers is neither a wholly L5R book nor an attempt to build a new Asian-based setting that is functionally D&D. It's a mess and really is not sufficient to produce a functional Asian-based setting on its own. The book lacks a clearly defined purpose and doesn't deliver on what people would have hoped the book did.

It's funny, but I'd never really thought about it that way - but (at least from my perspective) I think you're on the mark.

I was always a bit miffed that the 3.0 OA was so different than the 1E OA (aside from the obvious rule set differences). I would have preferred if it had been set in Kara Tur or another established D&D "Eastern" setting instead of Rokugan.

[illyahr]

When in doubt, blame laziness: if people want to play in a setting, they want a book that has enough detail they don't need to do anything. Oriental Adventures and Ghostwalk both suggest some very cool settings, but are mostly mechanics and require significant work to reach the standard set by familiar campaign settings with broad continental maps featuring multiple nations with named leaders and towns. Even better, as mechanics focused books they appeal to the mechanically minded person, who is less confident in their ability to construct a setting. So they set themselves up for a fall.

This actually makes a fair bit of sense. There's a fair bit of flavor in the book, but none of it relates back to something people can use without cherry-picking what they want out of it.

[Someguy231]

Speaking of Kara-Tur, I run an OA themed game in Kara-Tur for 3.5 Forgotten Realms with two friends of mine. I mainly help with converting some of the 3.0 lingo into 3.5 stuff, and help with some story arc development. So, it's still used, just not that much, and not for Rokugan.

[Bohandas]

Mechanics aren't the real problem with this book, the real problem is that this book is attached to a setting that is the property of a 3rd party publisher whose fans have limited cross-over with D&D fans. Worse, Oriental Adventurers is neither a wholly L5R book nor an attempt to build a new Asian-based setting that is functionally D&D. It's a mess and really is not sufficient to produce a functional Asian-based setting on its own. The book lacks a clearly defined purpose and doesn't deliver on what people would have hoped the book did.


This sounds about right. It can't decide if it's a campaign setting or not.

[atemu1234]

I blame the fact that people don't generally use the word "oriental" anymore

Yeah, it kind of gave off an aura of old-timey racism to me.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, it kind of gave off an aura of old-timey racism to me.

Meh. Between the rugs and a million and one "oriental <X>" chinese resteraunts where X is one of "Kitchen, Panda, Wok, etc..." the term "oriental" is only as offensive as you're willing to perceive it as being.

[Sword-Geass]

Dastana and Cahar-Aina are offensively broken, even if the DM reads the medium armor proficiency requirement for Cahar-Aina as implying a speed penalty, Dastana alone will invalidate the entire medium armor section, who even wrote these (see also AaEG)?



This is a bit off-topic, but I would like to ask about this. What's the problem with the Chahar-Aina and the Dastana? Aside from being a really cheap +2 bonus to AC I don't see anything problematic (since they aren't listed as armor, but as "Other Addition" they won't be enchantable. Or that's what I always thought).

Maybe with Magic Vestment they could be problematic, but the bonus of that spell should only go with one of your "armors" (so if you used Magic Vestment on your regular armor, your Chahar-Aina and your Dastana, you would only benefit from it once), or I am wrong?

[awa]

who uses medium armor?

Im not certain I have ever seen someone use medium armor once they could afford better

[Bohandas]

Meh. Between the rugs and a million and one "oriental <X>" chinese resteraunts where X is one of "Kitchen, Panda, Wok, etc..." the term "oriental" is only as offensive as you're willing to perceive it as being.

Yeah, I never understood why some people have a problem with the word 'oriental'. The one explanation I've heard that sort of makes sense is that it's eurocentric because it's derived from an ancient word for "east", but even that doesn't totally add up because even on a map just of Asia, China and Japan and Korea are still in the east; they're on the eastern coast of the continent.

[Ashtagon]

Speaking as someone who is part Chinese, I understand "oriental" to be offensive when used to describe a person, but a non-issue when used to describe places or things.

[Coidzor]

This is a bit off-topic, but I would like to ask about this. What's the problem with the Chahar-Aina and the Dastana? Aside from being a really cheap +2 bonus to AC I don't see anything problematic (since they aren't listed as armor, but as "Other Addition" they won't be enchantable. Or that's what I always thought).

Maybe with Magic Vestment they could be problematic, but the bonus of that spell should only go with one of your "armors" (so if you used Magic Vestment on your regular armor, your Chahar-Aina and your Dastana, you would only benefit from it once), or I am wrong?

If you don't allow them to be enchanted, then the bit about them being able to have enhancement bonuses that don't stack with armor/shields makes a lot less sense, but they also have less abuse because you just eliminated their main strength, being able to get armor properties more cheaply, especially ones that are desirable, but aren't good enough to compete with what you have to put on your main armor.

[LTwerewolf]

It's listed under armor in the text (text trumps table), it's on the armor table, and they are under the subsection shields and other additions (not other additions). The benefit is that people are spending less on their armor enchants by dividing them among each of them. Arguably the enhancement bonus doesn't stack between the chahar-aina and the chain mail, and the dastana and the shield, but then you only need to enchant one of them with enhancement bonus to armor (if you don't want to spend slots/other items on magic vestment) and then dump a bunch of other useful enchants on the other item.

It's not really a big deal and is more beneficial to mundanes than casters.

[Thurbane]

People don't seem to use term occidental much anymore, either.

[Troacctid]

I say "Occidental" all the time, but that's because I live in Sonoma County, CA.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I say "Occidental" all the time, but that's because I live in Sonoma County, CA.I've always thought that "Sonoma" sounded like a type of cancer.

[LTwerewolf]

I say "Occidental" all the time, but that's because I live in Sonoma County, CA.

I am envious of your wine selection.

[Ashtagon]

People don't seem to use therm occidental much anymore, either.

Same goes for septentrional and meridional.

[Fizban]

This is a bit off-topic, but I would like to ask about this. What's the problem with the Chahar-Aina and the Dastana? Aside from being a really cheap +2 bonus to AC I don't see anything problematic (since they aren't listed as armor, but as "Other Addition" they won't be enchantable. Or that's what I always thought).

Maybe with Magic Vestment they could be problematic, but the bonus of that spell should only go with one of your "armors" (so if you used Magic Vestment on your regular armor, your Chahar-Aina and your Dastana, you would only benefit from it once), or I am wrong?


who uses medium armor?

Im not certain I have ever seen someone use medium armor once they could afford better
And why does no one use medium armor? Because the only medium armor worth using is the Breastplate, which gives exactly 1 point of AC more than the Chain Shirt. It gets used for a short amount of time until Mithril Full Plate becomes available, and then medium armors are completely obsolete. It is a disgusting excuse for an armor table.

Cahar-Aina +Chain Shirt, even if it reduces speed and counts as Medium armor (which it does not), is still better than Breastplate with lower cost and lower ACP. Dastana don't have anything even suggesting they might reduce speed and are even cheaper, and lighter weight, so Dastana+ Chain Shirt has the same AC while being better at every other category (except ASF, like anyone cares).

If you use both at once, RAW you now have a 40lb light armor with +6 base AC for 200gp. Compare to Splint Mail, the cheapest heavy armor meant for low-level budgets: 200gp, +6 AC, 45lbs, and oh yeah 0 dex bonus with a -7 ACP.

I seem to be basically the only person who cares about the armor table. People complain about how hard it is to boost AC so there's no point in bothering, yet they accept this table with a useless middle category, with top-end heavy armors that don't actually service no-dex builds, with shields that barely count for anything and penalize you when they do. Oh, and heavy armor proficiency counts for nothing, because mithril means that you only need medium to wear the best armor, with a higher AC maximum on top, so heavy proficiency is left with. . . adamantine? Fix the armor and it's a lot easier to build for AC when you aren't standing on shattered earth to begin with.

They're spit in the wound that is the broken armor system of 3.5. The only possible reason to not use them is having a low carrying capacity, and that's only by coincidence. The only reason Chain Shirt itself isn't a worse offender is because removing it would just give -1AC to half the classes without improving anything.

[Ashtagon]

I'm actually okay with the idea that not every armour type will be chosen by a character with essentially unlimited gold reserves. That's realistic. Just as in the real world, many cars don't get serious consideration by the ultra-rich looking to buy a car, the same goes for D&D body armour.

[Fizban]

Oh my armor table has plenty of armor I don't expect anyone to actually use, but a whole category when there are multiple classes that seem to think that category is relevant is a bit much. I'd also like it if at least one game in the world actually had medium armor worth using, even if only for specific builds that happen to line up with it :smallsigh:

[TheFurith]

For me, at this point I roll my eyes every time I see some random person with a totally out of place katana. Be it games, movies, whatever. It's just become so overdone.

Why it's not more of a thing? I don't know. People seem to like that stuff.

[Cosi]

And why does no one use medium armor? Because the only medium armor worth using is the Breastplate, which gives exactly 1 point of AC more than the Chain Shirt. It gets used for a short amount of time until Mithril Full Plate becomes available, and then medium armors are completely obsolete. It is a disgusting excuse for an armor table.

Well, yeah, but that's because there are like three variables anyone gives a crap about: AC bonus (more is better), Max DEX (more is better), and ACP (less is better). There's also ASF which no one cares about because casters don't wear armor that could make their spells fail, and max speed which no one cares about because it doesn't change from medium to heavy. If you wanted to make people wear a wider variety of armors (which, as it has been pointed out, you don't necessarily want to), you would have to add some more variables to tweak. Like give each time of armor DR against a different type of damage, or give people special abilities for wearing specific armors, or whatever.

[Fizban]

Tangent continues!

Indeed, I tweaked max dex and ACP on several in order to ensure that each set is a little different, which resulted in a couple being pretty odd, which I'm still not happy with. But I don't want to ditch most of the published material because it has character. In any case, the main part of fixing the table is making sure there's actually variance between the armors. If light armor goes to +4, medium armor must start at +4 and go to at least +6, and heavy must go to +10. The standard combined AC bonus between armor and max dex is +10 on the good armors, and less on the cheap armors. Shields are easy to fix: the buckler stays at +1, light shield is increased to +2, heavy to +3, and tower stays at +4 but with only a -1 penalty.

The end result is modest, because I'm never looking to completely buck the game. +2 AC for early characters (by giving the medium starting armors +1 and heavy shields +1), is pretty significant, and with only a -1 penalty tower shields look much more attractive for people that really want AC. By putting mechanus gear or some other +10/+0 armor on the main table, you show that AC does not require dex.

Two bits I expect no one will like: mithril no longer reduces armor category, and mage armor is nerfed to +3. The first makes heavy armor proficiency relevant again, and the second is so there's a point to light armored casting. Dragoncraft also reduces armor category, but since it doesn't increase max dex at the same time it's fine.

But this is supposed to be an Oriental Adventures thread, so back to those armors, all of which I mostly like. Ashigaru armor is equivalent to Studded Leather, except it's actually a real thing. So is Leather Scale. Tougher hide armor made from tougher hides seems cool, and Dhenuka is almost wearable for druids. Brigandine and Lamellar are two missing links often pointed out by armor buffs, though while Brigandine's low price makes it useful for guards, Lamellar actually invalidates Breastplate with it's own price. Partial Armor is bad but it looks cool in Samurai Warriors so it can stay, and get buffed to the same purpose as Great Armor in a high dex quality choice. The kappa shell is an interesting idea, with more coherent mechanics than the tower shield even though it's still missing info (what sort of action is "shed"?).

So on the main topic of "why isn't it a thing?", well none of the armor is better than anything in the PHB, so unless you're an armor table nut like me, the whole section's only there for the free bonuses or as a setting restriction that makes everyone worse. Same applies to AaEG and basically every book with armor that isn't mechanus gear.

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, yeah, but that's because there are like three variables anyone gives a crap about: AC bonus (more is better), Max DEX (more is better), and ACP (less is better). There's also ASF which no one cares about because casters don't wear armor that could make their spells fail, and max speed which no one cares about because it doesn't change from medium to heavy. If you wanted to make people wear a wider variety of armors (which, as it has been pointed out, you don't necessarily want to), you would have to add some more variables to tweak. Like give each time of armor DR against a different type of damage, or give people special abilities for wearing specific armors, or whatever.

I definitely agree. Mithril should be removed from the game entirely, along with other materials that affect armor category. From there, perhaps an armor assortment along these lines:



Light Armor
AC Bonus
Max Dex
ACP
ASF
DR
Speed (30 ft.)
Speed (20 ft.)


Padded
+1
+7
0
5%
—
30 ft.
20 ft.


Leather
+2
+6
0
5%
1/slashing
30 ft.
20 ft.


Studded Leather
+3
+5
-1
10%
1/piercing
30 ft.
20 ft.


Chain Shirt
+4
+4
-2
10%
1/bludgeoning
30 ft.
20 ft.




Medium Armor
AC Bonus
Max Dex
ACP
ASF
DR
Speed (30 ft.)
Speed (20 ft.)


Hide Armor
+4
+6
-2
15%
2/slashing
25 ft.
15 ft.


Brigandine
+5
+5
-2
15%
1/—
25 ft.
15 ft.


Chain Hauberk
+6
+4
-3
20%
2/bludgeoning
25 ft.
15 ft.


Breastplate
+7
+3
-4
20%
2/piercing
25 ft.
15 ft.




Heavy Armor
AC Bonus
Max Dex
ACP
ASF
DR
Speed (30 ft.)
Speed (20 ft.)


Lamellar
+7
+5
-4
25%
3/slashing
20 ft.
15 ft.


Scale Mail
+8
+4
-4
25%
2/—
20 ft.
15 ft.


Chainmail
+9
+3
-5
30%
3/bludgeoning
20 ft.
15 ft.


Full Plate
+10
+2
-6
30%
3/piercing
20 ft.
15 ft.



There's meaningful differences between classes in AC (Light sums to 8, Medium to 10, Heavy to 12), speed (30/25/20 and 20/15/15, didn't want to push halflings etc. down to 10), and DR (1/2/3 passed by one damage type, or 0/1/2 typeless). Higher Dex is still rewarded with lower ASF and ACP, while the slower and more even ASF scaling helps things like Spellsword and Suel Arcanamach (which normally pale in comparison to Battle Sorcerer, Bard, Runecaster, Duskblade, etc). Thoughts?

[LTwerewolf]

The only issue I would have is that I feel the full plate should offer noticably more defense than any of the others. There's a reason that after a certain point shields were for the most part put to the side, and it's because of the quality of the plated armors was such that they were rendered unnecessary. Tobias Capwell does a good job explaining it in his book (Armor of the English Knight 1400-1450).

[Cosi]

Two bits I expect no one will like: mithril no longer reduces armor category, and mage armor is nerfed to +3. The first makes heavy armor proficiency relevant again, and the second is so there's a point to light armored casting.

The only class that gets Armored Casting and mage armor is the Beguiler. It's a minor nerf, but I don't really see the point. Beguilers aren't going into melee intentionally anyway, and the casters that do (mostly Dread Necromancers) don't get mage armor. I guess maybe it helps with some PrCs, but at that point you could get magic armor which beats out normal mage armor, or go a level deeper and use greater mage armor which still beats actual armor.

[Zaydos]

On the original topic:

It's 3.0 and even for 3.0 had questionable things from races (Vanara's +2 to 2 mental stats with no Con penalty making them by and far the best caster race, Hengeyokai's +1 LA rendering them practically unplayable), to feats (really powerful regional ones), to equipment (in addition to the armor things there's the exotic weapons which are worse than martial ones and native to the region i.e. not exotic).

It's schizoid on the setting (Rokugan and ill-informed pop-culture representation of Japanochina with stray Indian bits), and if you actually want to run a game based on Asian cultures you eventually run into sohei sucks compared to paladin, shugenja suffers frombeing tied to Rokugan and from being less fitting for a shugenja than wu jen, and the fluff is not the best.

That said the first PrCs I ever made were for samurai and inspired by OA and it's probably my favorite 3.0 book. It's just full of issues for using it to run Asian themed games and if you aren't specifically running those it's mostly just looted for the most broken aspects which give it a bad rap.

On the armor discussion:

My personal band-aid would be +1 to AC for Medium and Heavy Armors (other than Hide), Mithral armor still needs proficiency in its original weight category. Shields apply to touch AC and to the AC of your mount; worn (non-animated) shields also grant a bonus against bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip equal to their base AC bonus + 1/2 their enhancement (rounded down). Finally PA for one-handers works at the same 2 for 1 as two-handers (because PA doesn't need to be nerfed, but it's the big offender for why Shields suck as it changes 2-Handers from being +2.5-+7.5 damage to being up to +17.5 or more damage for the price of not wearing an animated shield which costs at most 30k more than your shield already would have... if you're getting a net +10 shield for some reason), and PA can work with light weapons at a 1 to 1.

I'd also change magic armor and weapon pricing so that +X enhancement and special fun things weren't priced together.

[Âmesang]

That reminds me of wanting to play a FORGOTTEN REALMS® shade wearing a bronze breastplate to give him an antiquated feel/look (despite being a heavier, more expensive chain shirt).

[Fizban]

The only issue I would have is that I feel the full plate should offer noticably more defense than any of the others. There's a reason that after a certain point shields were for the most part put to the side, and it's because of the quality of the plated armors was such that they were rendered unnecessary. Tobias Capwell does a good job explaining it in his book (Armor of the English Knight 1400-1450).
Interesting to know, but still covered: If your full plate results in AC 20 on it's own, most people need a 19 or 20 to hit you even without a shield. I'd expect that betweed highly skilled combatants a shield would still make a huge difference, if not historically then cinematically.

The only class that gets Armored Casting and mage armor is the Beguiler. It's a minor nerf, but I don't really see the point. Beguilers aren't going into melee intentionally anyway, and the casters that do (mostly Dread Necromancers) don't get mage armor. I guess maybe it helps with some PrCs, but at that point you could get magic armor which beats out normal mage armor, or go a level deeper and use greater mage armor which still beats actual armor.
But there's no draw. Armored casting is supposed to be a feature, a reason to consider a restricted caster instead of plain wizard. With Mage Armor there is no reason. Greater Mage Armor is a 3rd level spell, significantly more resources to cast, and only goes to +6 which makes it equivalent to taking Battle Caster for medium armor. If you have to buy some fancy special armor in order to ignore ASF because you aren't actually an armored caster, you're paying for the privilege when real armored casters don't. Even though it will most likely never come up, mechanically you know that you have the freedom to put on any light armor you find or need without customizing it. And yes, Abjurant Champion also gets the nerf bat, but that's another thread.

[Yahzi]

Lots of really awesome flavor.
I agree. The family history stuff was brilliant.

[CharonsHelper]

The only issue I would have is that I feel the full plate should offer noticably more defense than any of the others. There's a reason that after a certain point shields were for the most part put to the side, and it's because of the quality of the plated armors was such that they were rendered unnecessary. Tobias Capwell does a good job explaining it in his book (Armor of the English Knight 1400-1450).

Though I think sometimes that's overstated. In Eastern Europe they still used shields sporadically up until the late 17th century. Even in Western Europe they were still sometimes used when mounted in the 15th century.

In addition - the protection of full plate wasn't the only reason. Part of it was that shields didn't do much against guns, which were in Europe by the late 14th century, while earlier one of the main reasons to have one was against arrows. Also, part of it was because you needed both arms to be able to deal with your opponent's full plate.

In addition, while not often discussed, I think that part of it might have just been the fashion of the time. I think sometimes historians ignore such things, but military history would be very different if warriors always used the most efficient methods. After all, the samurai didn't use shields either, and I don't think that anyone could say that their armor was as good as 15th century European full plate. I think that was mostly for cultural reasons.

[Fizban]

I would point out samurai use of polearms and bows, but a spear/lance and shield on horesback is also standard, so they really don't have much excuse. Excellent point about culture and fashion though.

The point about arrows kinda bugs me. Thanks to movies like 300, the fact that a DnD heavy shield does nothing against a volley of arrows seems conspicuously un-cinematic. That's one of the reasons I reduce the penalty on tower shields, less penalty if you want to carry some cover around in case of sun blotting. There's also the Hide shield from Sandstorm, which already does that without modification. Block Arrows would be a great benefit of shield builds if arrows were more common among PC threats.

[CharonsHelper]

I would point out samurai use of polearms and bows, but a spear/lance and shield on horesback is also standard, so they really don't have much excuse.

True - but they also used a sword which is terrible against armor. Great against flesh - but katanas are pretty terrible against armor. Which is probably one of the best examples of blind adherence to culture/tradition trumping military sense. (That and the Romans trying to beat an army of horse-archers in the open with 90% melee infantry. >.<)

[LTwerewolf]

True - but they also used a sword which is terrible against armor. Great against flesh - but katanas are pretty terrible against armor. Which is probably one of the best examples of blind adherence to culture/tradition trumping military sense. (That and the Romans trying to beat an army of horse-archers in the open with 90% melee infantry. >.<)

Katanas were also no more of a primary weapon than an arming sword was.

[CharonsHelper]

Katanas were also no more of a primary weapon than an arming sword was.

True - but the arming sword could deal with armor.

[LTwerewolf]

Arming swords certainly weren't going to be piercing armor, and hitting them with the edge was going to damage the sword far more than the armor. The way that they were used against armor was for leverage to get the opponent on the ground. This wasn't something that was particularly unique to the arming sword, however. Most weapons, including lighter maces, could accomplish this. The best way to deal with armor was to not deal with it. It's why the poignard became such an important tool. I'm not saying katanas were the greatest weapon by any extent, they weren't. I'm just saying the arming sword wasn't inordinately better for dealing with others in armor than a katana was.

As far as the armor goes, arrows didn't pierce armor very effectively either. We see this as early as Harfleur (1415), and continued through Rouen (1449) and on. "But what about Agincourt?" I hear no-one ask. The big difference between Agincourt and the others was the sheer number of archers. Something people never keep in mind is that no armor is "X proof." Modern body armor is not bullet proof, it is bullet resistant rated up to X. Ancient armor was no different, and the number of archers the French were having to deal with were a problem. For lesser amounts of archers, he tactic in nearly every (not the spanish, but there are reasons for that) treatise was to lower your head into the path of the arrow, bending into it. The sole reason for this was because you didn't want the stray arrow getting through an eye slot. The lack of shields in Europe wasn't about fashion at all. It was simply another large piece of metal and wood that you needed to lug around that no longer appreciably helped you get less dead, and no longer appreciably helped the opponent get more dead. The fact that shields still saw some use were in very niche circumstances (and cavalry generally didn't). You did see mounted shields in jousts, but that's not exactly battle. You also used to see it in duels. This is why people think the sword and shield was the "primary" knight weapons, just as duels are the reason people think the katana was a primary samurai weapon.

[Ashtagon]

Katanas were also no more of a primary weapon than an arming sword was.

Don't make me unleash THE MEME :smallbiggrin:

[Lacuna Caster]

Is it not worth mentioning that samurai armour was a very different beast (e.g, basically lamellar or overlapping scales,) from full european plate? It's something of an oddity that the japanese military never seemed to make much use of shields, and maybe that can be blamed on institutional inertia, but my understanding was that the relative scarcity of iron made heavy armour uneconomical. It's not a use-case the katana was designed for.

[CharonsHelper]

Is it not worth mentioning that samurai armour was a very different beast (e.g, basically lamellar or overlapping scales,) from full european plate? It's something of an oddity that the japanese military never seemed to make much use of shields, and maybe that can be blamed on institutional inertia, but my understanding was that the relative scarcity of iron made heavy armour uneconomical. It's not a use-case the katana was designed for.

It depends upon the time period. They started using heavy plate when they had to go up against matchlock muskets, though still not really comparable to European full plate. (more gaps etc.)

[LTwerewolf]

It depends upon the time period. They started using heavy plate when they had to go up against matchlock muskets, though still not really comparable to European full plate. (more gaps etc.)

There was still a relative scarcity, but it was a more cultural thing of valuing individuals less than the western cultures did due to high population densities. They only had so many habitable places before significant terraforming became a thing.

[Zaydos]

Looking back to the original topic. So in 3.0 Shamans had the Animal Friendship spell which in 3.5 became the Animal Companion special ability, the 3.5 update for OA makes no comment on this. It doesn't say they should have the ability, but it also doesn't mention that the ability used to be the spell, or that the spell no longer exists (it mentions a few spells that changed in the update but not Animal Friendship).

I mean I'd make the common sense change of they get an Animal Companion as a druid, but it's actually a massive amount of power one way or another. I mean Animal Companion is big, and firmly cements shaman as 'yeah their list is worse than a cleric's but they get the key core spells for CoDzilla and an animal companion', where without it they might be worse than Favored Soul (depending upon how easily your DM will add spells to non-core spell lists following Spell Compendium's suggestions).

[illyahr]

Sorry, been out of the loop for a week.

As to the 'katana not being effective against armor' thing: Only samurai, read 'nobles,' had armor. Everyone else had makeshift stuff. Also, there's a reason the kanabo and tetsubo were used by oni in the Japanese mythos.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0mGlHorjZGo/U8esYQ34UjI/AAAAAAAADVU/jAEkDCI_evQ/s1600/Oni+1.jpg

Also remember that, in game, katana are equivalent to bastard swords so anything that applies to one applies to the other.

[CharonsHelper]

Also, there's a reason the kanabo and tetsubo were used by oni in the Japanese mythos.

I'm not sure that you can necessarily draw a conclusion from that. After all - people in Europe didn't think of the pitchfork as being a scary weapon.

[Blackhawk748]

On the arming sword going through armor discussion, dont forget the Murder Stroke


https://67.media.tumblr.com/2245d6bce783039e925ad93057e3fd5a/tumblr_inline_o0z04jp9AU1s71ybj_1280.png


Yes its ridiculous and yes it works, and the katana can't do it. Also remember that Japanese armor was very different from European armor with significantly less metal overall.

[illyahr]

I'm not sure that you can necessarily draw a conclusion from that. After all - people in Europe didn't think of the pitchfork as being a scary weapon.

It wasn't that a pitchfork, a farming implement, was particularly scary. It was how it was used that got people nervous. Pitchforks were medium-range piercing weapons so they could be used against a mounted knight fairly easily and frequently had dirt and manure on them. A wound made by one was usually fatal, considering the medical practices of the time. It was the same with a kanabo: samurai armor protected against slashes and pierces but wouldn't do much for blunt-force trauma and katanas were fairly flimsy. A properly-wielded kanabo, a fairly simple weapon, was a nightmare to samurai as there wasn't much they could do to block it: they could be knocked about by a single swing and could even break their weapon which was considered extreme dishonor.

[Zaydos]

Also pitchforks don't usually have 3 prongs which is why I've given credence to the concept that it was originally a trident (certain pre-Christian gods were associated with the trident), people just forgot what tridents really were afterwards.

Also is it bad I want to rant about katana = bastard sword?

I mean during the Tokugawa Bakufu they were about as long as D&D shortswords. During the beginning of it they were shorter than an arming sword (or D&D longsword), and even in the warring states period it varied from bastard sword length down. The modern katana is actually really long for a katana, and partially because it's not intended to be more than a sport weapon. Of course the original katana had a greater curve to its blade and was made to be wielded from horseback and was too large and unwieldy to wield in one hand on foot and was closer to a D&D falchion.

Maybe I want to use Hideyoshi regency era katana not katana from 50 years earlier or after the lift of the Meiji sword ban.

[illyahr]

Katanas really didn't have a fixed length or shape, that's what made certain smiths famous. Their particular style of katana might have a superior edge, or might be longer while still retaining most of its (little) durability. Wakizashi were mostly a fixed size and nodachi were most certainly two-handed so I guess they had to settle on something one-handed and a bastard sword fit the image better.

[Pex]

The only thing I didn't like about it was the taint, or was that only a Five Rings thing? Once you're tainted you're screwed, just tear up your character sheet. Granted a campaign doesn't need to have anything to do with taint at all, but it still tainted the setting for me. :smallyuk:

[BWR]

The only thing I didn't like about it was the taint, or was that only a Five Rings thing? Once you're tainted you're screwed, just tear up your character sheet. Granted a campaign doesn't need to have anything to do with taint at all, but it still tainted the setting for me. :smallyuk:

The Taint is an L5R thing, and they watered it down for OA. The Maho-bujin was scary in 1e L5R, and the Shadowlands supplements (Especially Bearers of Jade) are creepy and show just how unfair, insidious and powerful it is. Of course the Taint and the enemies suffered from villain decay over the years which was one of the reasons I left the community and the continuing story.
The Taint didn't mean your PC was doomed (other than in the sense their soul is now doomed to Hell almost no matter what you do). It meant a radical readjustment of what they could and could not do, depending on how Tainted they were and who knew, but you could still play them. They just had a few extra restrictions and options available.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The only thing I didn't like about it was the taint, or was that only a Five Rings thing? Once you're tainted you're screwed, just tear up your character sheet. Granted a campaign doesn't need to have anything to do with taint at all, but it still tainted the setting for me. :smallyuk:

It's a Rokugan thing. That said, the Rokugan campaign setting by AEG actually does include a few ways to actually reduce your overall taint level and even eliminate it altogether.

[Thurbane]

I'm not overly familiar with either version, but does OA taint and HoH taint follow the same kind of rules?

[CharonsHelper]

Also pitchforks don't usually have 3 prongs which is why I've given credence to the concept that it was originally a trident (certain pre-Christian gods were associated with the trident), people just forgot what tridents really were afterwards.

They sometimes had 2, 3, or 4 prongs.

I've heard the trident theory before, but since the earliest image of the devil with a pitchfork was in Ireland (9th or 10th century I believe) which showed him leading people astray, it's generally considered more likely that it was symbolism because he was a false shepherd who was prodding people in the wrong direction.

[Ashtagon]

I'm not overly familiar with either version, but does OA taint and HoH taint follow the same kind of rules?

The OA taint rules can be considered a half-completed prototype version of the HoH taint rules.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not overly familiar with either version, but does OA taint and HoH taint follow the same kind of rules?

This:


The OA taint rules can be considered a half-completed prototype version of the HoH taint rules.

HoH version is still difficult (impossible?) to remove but tracks as two separate scores; corruption and depravity. The former represents taint of the flesh and the latter covers taint of the mind.

Taint can be an interesting mechanic if you play with it a little but it can be -bad- if it's handled poorly.

[Zaydos]

Atonement removes HoH taint. Requires a quest and 500 XP but it removes it.

I like HoH taint.

[Boci]

This:



HoH version is still difficult (impossible?) to remove but tracks as two separate scores; corruption and depravity. The former represents taint of the flesh and the latter covers taint of the mind.

Taint can be an interesting mechanic if you play with it a little but it can be -bad- if it's handled poorly.

The random aspect is also troublesom too. There's taint that gave you a spell failure chance for every spell with a verbal component, and one that required a DC: 20 fort save to avoid being fatigued when charged. Getting those results could easily end a character concept, whilst -2 to charisma based skills was just annoying mechanically more than anything else.

Then there were the frankly bizarre ones, like OCD, which didn't actually give you OCD (certainly no mechanics for it), instead required you to eat beetles every morning to break the compulsion, and this unset your stomach enough to deal 1d4 non-lethal damage.

I mean, what?

[BWR]

It's a Rokugan thing. That said, the Rokugan campaign setting by AEG actually does include a few ways to actually reduce your overall taint level and even eliminate it altogether.

Those ways were generally very hard-to-impossible to do. Taint is in almost every case a one-way ticket to hell, sometimes while you're still alive. The exceptions are that: exceptions. Rare, rare exceptions.



Atonement removes HoH taint. Requires a quest and 500 XP but it removes it.

I like HoH taint.

Bah, wussy nonsense.

[illyahr]

The Taint didn't mean your PC was doomed (other than in the sense their soul is now doomed to Hell almost no matter what you do).

Actually, Taint only manifested physically and mentally, it didn't affect your soul unless you succumbed to it. It's kinda like how negative levels don't make you evil until you die from them and become a wight (or other various undead).

I like to think that Dragon Age got it pretty accurate. It twists your body and drives you mad (Constitution and Wisdom damage), but doesn't turn you evil until you are so far gone that you're not even the same person anymore.