Verosimilitude in D&D ( realistic consequences of magic )

[Conradine]

There is a manual, fanmade material or book that deals with the plausible consequences that magic ( expecially low level - comparatively easy to access magic ) would have to the world?


One example that comes into mind is low level mind control.

Let's take a look: we have Hypnosis ( 1st level, Arcane spell but accessible to some Clerics with apposite domains ), a spell that implant permanent suggestions on a subject. Although very specific, these suggestions do not fade and nothing prevents to implant multiple suggestions on the same subject to heavily influence his overall behiavour and worldview. Also, the influenced victim forget he has been subject to a form of mind control.

The target gets a penality to his Will save and even if he succed, he would probably mistake the gestures and incantations as simple slow talking ( if he has no ranks in the appropriate skills ).
That means that even a first level cleric can effectively brainwash into next to complete obedience a commoner every... let's say 15 days ( multiple ipnotic suggestions, and taking in account some will save success ).
It would allow to even the lest powerful cleric to build his faithful, controllable and disposable herd of 2-300 people in just ten years of so.

Even if people are suspecting, he can still influence minds at level 1 with trascurable risk with the first level spell Command: it requires no gestures and the only verbal component is a single word that can easily be hiddent into a normal conversation.

Example: " Obeying the church is the best for you people, trust me"

There's no precise rules about but I guess that would mimic the effect of Hypnosis, or a bit less.


Things become much worse if a Cleric reach level 3 ( which is not beyond what someone should be able to do in a lifetime ): Enthrall allows to do the very same thing of Hypnosis, but on virtually illimitate masses.


So, must we assume that, lacking other means to counteract the phenomena ( like surveillance from other temples ) , every Evil churches rules over theocracies supported by herds of magically brainwashed followers?

[Braininthejar2]

The gods would dislike it, I guess. Masses of brainwashed people are great for a church everyday affairs, but they don't provide much genuine faith, and this is what the gods want in the long run.

[Quertus]

No, only lawful evil churches. And, well, lawful churches in general. Chaotic churches, including chaotic evil ones, value free will too much to employ such tactics.

Now I want to run an adventure where a chaotic evil priest hires the party to save a village from a lawful good church's corruption of their minds. :P

[awa]

actually does chaotic evil value freedom or do they value their freedom I could easily see one saying do as I say not as i do. Demanding every one obey their every whim.

obey me is far to broad for hypnosis and hypnosis only makes them friendlier in regards to one particular area, once they know you are mind controlling them their general attitude will plummet rendering the rest of the spell ineffective. Now this could still be used but its not a charm spell much less a dominate it has limits and it needs to be used subtly or it wont really work, because two up from hostile is merely indifferent. so when the angry mob comes for you because you mind controlled them they will be indifferent to your pleas for mercy

[Crake]

actually does chaotic evil value freedom or do they value their freedom I could easily see one saying do as I say not as i do. Demanding every one obey their every whim.

Yeah, I was just about to mention this, chaotic evil have no qualms with using brainwashing to subjugate the masses for their own benefit, but if you try to brainwash THEM for "their own benefit" they might have something to say.

[Quertus]

actually does chaotic evil value freedom or do they value their freedom I could easily see one saying do as I say not as i do. Demanding every one obey their every whim.

You are absolutely free to choose between serving me and death! Chaotic evil finds it anathema to remove that choice - and the corresponding suffering - from your precious mind.

Lawful just wants your obedience, and if all that free will gets in the way, it has to go.

[Conradine]

obey me is far to broad for hypnosis and hypnosis only makes them friendlier in regards to one particular area, once they know you are mind controlling them their general attitude will plummet rendering the rest of the spell ineffective. Now this could still be used but its not a charm spell much less a dominate it has limits and it needs to be used subtly or it wont really work, because two up from hostile is merely indifferent. so when the angry mob comes for you because you mind controlled them they will be indifferent to your pleas for mercy


This is why I talked about multiple suggestions.

1- I know what is best for you
2- You can trust me
3- Your best interest and mine are the same
4- Those enemies of me are immoral people
5- Those enemies of me are a threat for you
6- You should protect me from my enemies
7- You should proselitize for me
8- Your family and friends believe in me too
9- I can protect your family

ecc ecc....

with such a web of hypnotical influences , a person would be "programmed" step by step into obedience.

[martixy]

The word is actually "verisimilitude".

Now, the tippiverse also explores the impact of such magic on the world, although it takes it to the RAW-possible extreme.

Without auto-resetting traps and such, you still end up with a 0-th level spell that can create fresh, clean, potable water out of literrally thin air.
All the Conjuration(Creation) spells would have a massive impact on the world by virtue of creating something out of nothing. I mean fresh water is one of the most precious resources for civilization, here on earth.

[Extra Anchovies]

Let's take a look: we have Hypnosis ( 1st level, Arcane spell but accessible to some Clerics with apposite domains ), a spell that implant permanent suggestions on a subject. Although very specific, these suggestions do not fade and nothing prevents to implant multiple suggestions on the same subject to heavily influence his overall behiavour and worldview. Also, the influenced victim forget he has been subject to a form of mind control.

No such spell exists. If you're talking about Hypnotism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hypnotism.htm), you're mostly wrong about how it functions.

While the subject is fascinated by this spell, it reacts as though it were two steps more friendly in attitude. This allows you to make a single request of the affected creature (provided you can communicate with it). The request must be brief and reasonable. Even after the spell ends, the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request.
Reacts as if two steps more favorable, only with respect to the request. Nothing more. Two steps more favorable is Helpful, which means they'll listen to you and take your suggestions in mind. "You should try going to church sometime" is about as far as the spell can be stretched, and even then something as small as having tennis club every Sunday could be enough to keep them from ever actually going.


Even if people are suspecting, he can still influence minds at level 1 with trascurable risk with the first level spell Command: it requires no gestures and the only verbal component is a single word that can easily be hidden into a normal conversation.

Have you read this spell's description even once?

You may select from the following options.
The options are Approach, Drop, Fall, Flee, and Halt. Nothing less, nothing more.

Its verbal component, also, is not stated to be different from any other spells' verbal component, so you will be recognizably casting a spell, especially because it has a casting time of one standard action, during which you cannot take other actions such as speaking.


Things become much worse if a Cleric reach level 3 ( which is not beyond what someone should be able to do in a lifetime ): Enthrall allows to do the very same thing of Hypnosis, but on virtually illimitate masses.

I am astounded by your ability to simply not know how spells work.

Thereafter, those affected give you their undivided attention, ignoring their surroundings. They are considered to have an attitude of friendly while under the effect of the spell.
Friendly. They'll offer advice or limited help, they'll engage with you socially, they'll advocate on your behalf, but they will not unquestioningly follow your every word.

Duration: 1 hour or less
Even if they did, the spell only lasts in the very short term. Maybe churches would have a caster standing outside during services and casting Enthrall to convince people to come inside and listen, but the spell isn't useful for much more than that.

So, must we assume that, lacking other means to counteract the phenomena ( like surveillance from other temples ) , every Evil churches rules over theocracies supported by herds of magically brainwashed followers?

No. Of course not.

Where would they get their followers from? Evil religions are religions that promise some benefit to the self for participating. For example, follow the church's rules and spend an eternity in paradise after you die. That's clear enough; someone who wants an eternity in paradise would follow the church's rules. Good churches would instead advocate for how the practice of their ideals benefits everyone - ideals such as charity, nonviolence except in self-defense, adherence to local laws, advocacy for just legal systems, and so on.


Without auto-resetting traps and such, you still end up with a 0-th level spell that can create fresh, clean, potable water out of literrally thin air.
All the Conjuration(Creation) spells would have a massive impact on the world by virtue of creating something out of nothing. I mean fresh water is one of the most precious resources for civilization, here on earth.

At the same time, settings generally assume that even the lowest peasants have higher standards of living than serfs in medieval Europe had - almost every person is in no real danger of starvation or thirst, has few diseases to really worry about, and is even literate to boot. The number and variety of dangerous, actively hostile creatures in most settings is also enough to ensure that at least a low- to mid-level spellcaster is necessary for a town's survival, making access to Create Food and Water, Minor Creation, or (if you have a good butcher) Mount fairly trivial. But the settings are made with this usually kept in mind, so I think food and water specifically wouldn't have much effect on the published 3e settings. Especially not on Eberron; IMO at least, it's the best-written with regard to magic's effects on a setting, and is an excellent compromise between more conventional settings and the Tippyverse. The population numbers are a bit low (doubling or tripling them makes sense), but other than that it's my favorite setting by a long shot.

[Conradine]

Have you read this spell's description even once?

Command is different in edition 3.0. My manual is edition 3.0 and it list several commands but do not limit it to these options.

That said, your attitude is unnecessarily rude.


and even then something as small as having tennis club every Sunday could be enough to keep them from ever actually going.


This is not even Friendly.

[Extra Anchovies]

Command is different in edition 3.0. My manual is edition 3.0 and it list several commands but do not limit it to these options.

Checking my own 3.0 PHB, Command in that edition is also limited to one-word instructions. This makes it pretty much unusable for the purposes you are suggesting.

I present to you the full text of the 3.5 Command spell, as per the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm).

Command
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Clr 1
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

All fairly clear-cut. Of note is "Duration: 1 round". What's that mean?

A spell’s Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or some other increment. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell’s duration is variable (power word stun, for example) the DM rolls it secretly.It means that after one round has passed, the spell ends. This is fact, not analysis. After one round has passed from the moment of the spell's casting, the spell ceases to produce its effects.

You give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options.

"You may select from the following options" means you may select one of the commands listed following that line of text, and no other options. You cannot make up your own options. Your example command - "Obeying the church is the best for you people, trust me" A) is an assertion rather than a command of any sort and B) is not an option listed in the spell description.

Approach
On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

Drop
On its turn, the subject drops whatever it is holding. It can’t pick up any dropped item until its next turn.

Fall
On its turn, the subject falls to the ground and remains prone for 1 round. It may act normally while prone but takes any appropriate penalties.

Flee
On its turn, the subject moves away from you as quickly as possible for 1 round. It may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

Halt
The subject stands in place for 1 round. It may not take any actions but is not considered helpless.

All of these are perfectly clear in their meanings. If you were inside a church and the subject was not, you could use Approach to get them to move into the church. If the subject was between you and a church, you could use Flee to get them to move into the church. Other than that, getting a creature to go to church with the Command spell is completely impossible.

If the subject can’t carry out your command on its next turn, the spell automatically fails.

Not only must the command be a selection from the short five-item list, but unless the subject can carry out the selected action on their next turn, the spell automatically fails to even affect the subject in the first place, prior to any saving throws or spell resistance. This would be, for example, commanding an empty-handed character to Drop or a prone character to Fall.


Also, I suspect you have no clue of what Helpful means.
This is not even Friendly.

"Friendly" means "Wishes you well". Possible actions are chat, advise, offer limited help, and advocate.
"Helpful" means "Will take risks to help you". Possible actions are protect, back up, heal, and aid.

Helpful characters will definitely assist you when given reason to do so, but won't just do what you tell them without question. "Hey, I've been a little short on money lately, could you lend me a couple silver to make rent this month?" may well be met with a response of "Sure, it's no problem. Don't worry about paying me back until you can afford to." from a Helpful character. Requests without explanation - for example, "You should convert to this specific religion regardless of conflicting factors" - have no guarantee of being accepted. At the very least it would elicit a "Why?", at which point you need to explain to them why choosing your god is the best option, which means you have to proselytize as normal. The Helpful attitude would make it easier to convince them to do so, but it's a lot easier to just make the Diplomacy check than it is to use a spell slot and risk a witch-hunt on your head for ensorcelling the populace - it only takes one successful save (or one unaffected observer) to start getting people angry, and you'd make your patron deity look pretty bad in the eyes of anyone who heard about your manipulations.

Perhaps my tennis-club example was a bit of an exaggeration, but what I mean is this: in the presence of a reason to not do something, or even in the absence of a reason to do it, people are going to at least want an explanation regardless of their attitude, at which point you may as well not use Hypnotism and instead get some actual converts. Every religion has its merits; the ones that don't have any merits lost all of their followers long ago.

[awa]

This is why I talked about multiple suggestions.

1- I know what is best for you
2- You can trust me
3- Your best interest and mine are the same
4- Those enemies of me are immoral people
5- Those enemies of me are a threat for you
6- You should protect me from my enemies
7- You should proselitize for me
8- Your family and friends believe in me too
9- I can protect your family

ecc ecc....

with such a web of hypnotical influences , a person would be "programmed" step by step into obedience.

right that works until they figure out your mind controlling them then their base reaction is hostile and 2 up from hostile is indifferent

besides almost none of those are requests only 6 and 7 are requests all the others would be ignored and neither is "brief or reasonable" so they would not work despite being requests. This spell does not work the way you think it does

[Conradine]

"You may select from the following options" means you may select one of the commands listed following that line of text, and no other options. You cannot make up your own options. Your example command - "Obeying the church is the best for you people, trust me" A) is an assertion rather than a command of any sort and B) is not an option listed in the spell description.

In my manual it says simply "a single word" and list non limiting examples. Mabye the italian translation is different, mabye it was a different edition of the manual.

Anyway.

The single word, that I bolded was "trust". Trust means that for 6 seconds the person which you are talking with will trust what you are saying. Then, after 1 round, he'll stop trusting ( at least, he'll stop trusting more than normal ) but in the main time he trusted ( accepted as true ) what you said to him in these few seconds. The information is registered as true in his mind, it doesn't change into false when the spell wear off.

Also, when you use Enthrall, the people will like what you say more than normal. When the effect is over, you can't any more be so persuasive, but what you said stays in the mind. The people will still remember feeling persuaded and, if they don't know they have been magically manipulated, they will still be influenced.




right that works until they figure out your mind controlling them then their base reaction is hostile and 2 up from hostile is indifferent

They do not automatically figure out they are been mind controlled if they're not led to do exceptionally strange actions.
But if they are programmed step by step, even abhorrent behiavours can be rationalized as internally consistent.



besides almost none of those are requests only 6 and 7 are requests all the others would be ignored and neither is "brief or reasonable" so they would not work despite being requests. This spell does not work the way you think it does

It's enough to include the word "trust that" to make any concept a request.

"Trust that I am your friend".

Beside that, yes, they are very short requests ( single phrases ) and, if you're not openly going around butchering and robbing your followers, they are not unreasonable.

An unreasonable request would be "throw yourself into the fire for me", or "trust I am your friend" when you have just sacrificed his family to the dark gods.

[Psyren]

Hypnotism is also detectable even after the spell ends. A DC 25 Sense Motive check can "tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect, even if that person isn’t aware of it." All it will take is one nosy authority figure (say, a Guard-Captain, or an Inquisitor from your church) to figure out exactly how you're padding your congregation, and you're bound to get at best a very stern reprimand, and at worst be excommunicated or even arrested.

[awa]

they realize they have been mind controlled if you use the spell on a group that is two large or if they make their save. If you spam it you are guaranteed for someone to make the save and then they tell other people your using mind control and the whole thing falls apart and you get lynched. good adventure for low level pcs but hardly a world shaking development.

also almost none of the examples you listed are reasonable
hypnotize is not modify memory

[Conradine]

All it will take is one nosy authority figure (say, a Guard-Captain, or an Inquisitor from your church) to figure out exactly how you're padding your congregation, and you're bound to get at best a very stern reprimand, and at worst be excommunicated or even arrested.

Of course. That is why is specificed it would work only in oppressive evil theocracies.



also almost none of the examples you listed are reasonable

"Reasonable" in d&d terms means "anything that does not expose the speciemen to clear risk or force him into abherrant behiavour".



they realize they have been mind controlled if you use the spell on a group that is two large or if they make their save.


The verbal and somatic components of the spell are monothonous talking and slow gesturing. A person without points in Spellcraft is unable to tell them from normal speaking.

[awa]

Of course. That is why is specificed it would work only in oppressive evil theocracies.




"Reasonable" in d&d terms means "anything that does not expose the speciemen to clear risk or force him into abherrant behiavour".





The verbal and somatic components of the spell are monothonous talking and slow gesturing. A person without points in Spellcraft is unable to tell them from normal speaking.
1 mind controlling people into worshiping wont make them have faith just go through the motions so the evil god gets nothing

2 citation needed

3 i might not be able to identify the spell but when a cleric makes arcane gestures and mumbles words then tells my buddies to obey him and they suddenly do so im not so stupid as to not realize magic is being used.

your cleric has a plan that doesn't work, will get him killed, and wont help him even if he does manage to pull it off.

[Darth Ultron]

For low level core only mind control charm person works best, but it is still not that great.

For ''realistic'' spells, you would need custom spells, NOT the poorly made and written scribbles of a couple one sided guys years ago. A spellcaster would make better custom spells for mind control.

I might also point out, that just like in real life, the very best mind control is to get someone to believe in your ideas so much that they think it is their idea. And you don't need the mind effecting type enchantment spells....you want illusions and invocations.

[Psyren]

Of course. That is why is specificed it would work only in oppressive evil theocracies.

But in those you don't need to hypnotise everyone anyway. They're already being oppressed. That's what oppression means :smalltongue:



"Reasonable" in d&d terms means "anything that does not expose the speciemen to clear risk or force him into abherrant behiavour".

If D&D was meant to not have risk, we wouldn't have dice.


The verbal and somatic components of the spell are monothonous talking and slow gesturing. A person without points in Spellcraft is unable to tell them from normal speaking.

Anyone who makes their save will feel "a hostile force or tingle." You don't think that will make them suspicious?

[Conradine]

Anyone who makes their save will feel "a hostile force or tingle." You don't think that will make them suspicious?

That feeling did not exist in edition 3.0. Also it was not mentioned in most of Dragon Magazine's material that talked about mind controlles ( like DM 312 ).

Yes, if these sensation exists then Charm / Compulsion spells become severely underpowered and much less useful.



About the verbal components, the text of Enthallment explicitly says that to cast the spell the enchanter must speak or sing for a full round. That means the singing or speaking is the verbal component.

The spell Command has a casting time of 1 action ( 2-3 seconds ) and includes a single word. I find next to impossible that a caster could recite whatever magic formula AND a single command word in less than 3 seconds, so I think it's reasonable to assume the single word is the verbal component of the spell.

I also assumed that the slow speaking of Hypnosis is not "mumbo jumbo" but the commands and suggestion that the caster is givin, spoken with a slow and monotonous pace, therefore mistakable for normal speaking - but I'm not sure about this one.

[Psyren]

That feeling did not exist in edition 3.0. Also it was not mentioned in most of Dragon Magazine's material that talked about mind controlles ( like DM 312 ).

Yes, if these sensation exists then Charm / Compulsion spells become severely underpowered and much less useful.

Yes, it exists (at least in 3.5 - PHB pg. 177.)

If this thread is meant to be specific to 3.0 you should probably edit that into the opening post.

[Darth Ultron]

Yes, if these sensation exists then Charm / Compulsion spells become severely underpowered and much less useful.



Not exactly. Remember all most all D&D spells, but especially the ones in core, are made for combat adventuring only.

The spells are more like ''Deep in the main hall of the Temple of doom, surrounded by piles of dead bodies the spellcaster casts an enchantment charm spell to distract a known and bloody foe.''

And not ''a spellcaster makes a little hand wave to cast a spell to do a role playing action''.


So, again, like I said...you'd need new, custom spells. Spells where you can write thing like ''ulike other spells this spell give no tingle'' or ''this spell is cast as a swift action'' or ''the victim does not remember the spell being used on them'' and so forth.

[Lhurgyof]

So, is your question only about enchantment spells, or the long-term effects of magic use in general? Dark Sun has a lot of content about the abuse of magic and how it can effect the world.

[Tvtyrant]

There is a manual, fanmade material or book that deals with the plausible consequences that magic ( expecially low level - comparatively easy to access magic ) would have to the world?


One example that comes into mind is low level mind control.

Let's take a look: we have Hypnosis ( 1st level, Arcane spell but accessible to some Clerics with apposite domains ), a spell that implant permanent suggestions on a subject. Although very specific, these suggestions do not fade and nothing prevents to implant multiple suggestions on the same subject to heavily influence his overall behiavour and worldview. Also, the influenced victim forget he has been subject to a form of mind control.

The target gets a penality to his Will save and even if he succed, he would probably mistake the gestures and incantations as simple slow talking ( if he has no ranks in the appropriate skills ).
That means that even a first level cleric can effectively brainwash into next to complete obedience a commoner every... let's say 15 days ( multiple ipnotic suggestions, and taking in account some will save success ).
It would allow to even the lest powerful cleric to build his faithful, controllable and disposable herd of 2-300 people in just ten years of so.

Even if people are suspecting, he can still influence minds at level 1 with trascurable risk with the first level spell Command: it requires no gestures and the only verbal component is a single word that can easily be hiddent into a normal conversation.

Example: " Obeying the church is the best for you people, trust me"

There's no precise rules about but I guess that would mimic the effect of Hypnosis, or a bit less.


Things become much worse if a Cleric reach level 3 ( which is not beyond what someone should be able to do in a lifetime ): Enthrall allows to do the very same thing of Hypnosis, but on virtually illimitate masses.


So, must we assume that, lacking other means to counteract the phenomena ( like surveillance from other temples ) , every Evil churches rules over theocracies supported by herds of magically brainwashed followers?

Nope, we must not. Some certainly would be, but if the point of the evil church is to get someone's soul into Hell/Abyss/god//goddess Evil's afterlife then it would be extremely counter productive. Things done under someone else's control doesn't change your alignment, so it would make it much more difficult to actually accomplish your religious goals.

Now if you house ruled mind control to act like choices on alignment it is in every religions best interest to mind control as many people as possible, with the result that Aboleths and other beings with permanent mind control would be highly desirable.

[Conradine]

So, is your question only about enchantment spells, or the long-term effects of magic use in general?

Both.

I'll take a look for the Dark Sun setting, so.

[Psyren]

Keep in mind Dark Sun is meant to be a psionics-heavy setting, which is why they attached negative consequences to magic there. This is not the case in the majority of other settings (Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Dragonlance etc etc.)

[Darth Ultron]

There is a manual, fanmade material or book that deals with the plausible consequences that magic ( expecially low level - comparatively easy to access magic ) would have to the world?


To just do core arcane cantrips:

*Light-having light after sundown is huge, this can keep people active.

*Mending-fixes a lot of common items. Even just fixing four items a day can have a huge impact.

*Mage Hand-there are endless uses for even this weak telekinesis.

*Message-is just like a short range radio/cell phone call, and can be used to send messages to small groups.

*Prestidigitation-is well, a mini wish. In one hour you can sure get a lot out of this spell. You could clean a whole house or barn, for example. And again you get mini-telekinesis here too.

And even better then just the spells, each is very cheap to put in magic items. A Hand of the Mage is cheap and allows mage hand at will.