Hell's Vengeance AP : Running part 2

[Dezea]

Hey guys,

DM'ing Hell's Vengeance right now, and getting into part 2.

First, I have to say that while I do enjoy - and my player too - the ap so far, who offer lots of RP opportunities and, for once, encourage player to be evil, It has been a real struggle on me since we started as I had to change SO MANY THINGS to get the first part playable.

To be honest, I doubt anyone could play it as written, wich is a shame since there is so much to like otherwise.

Going into part 2 I can already see the same problem, here are the one I have the most problem with :

- The NPC get invited into the super-private small council of the town the day after getting into town, making it in my case a risible case where there is almost more PC than NPC in the council room.

- The NPC have to be so atrocely stupid to not realize sooner that it could be a little wierd that so much bad stuff start to happen some days after a bunch of guy with armor and weapon just got into town.

- Almost half of the guard in town are able to cast detect evil. Noone ever seems to think it could be a good idea to just use it on those guys with big stick randomly getting into a war-zone

-...And so much more.

If anyone DM'ed it, would you have some tips - Not necessarily adressing the topics I just listed - on running it ? I would really appreciate all of your goods idea, since as of now, I feel like i'll need to spend quite a lot of time tweaking the AP myself. (And god, I can already see how part 3 will be even more painful)

Thank you a lot for your help, and sorry for my bad english.

[Krazzman]

Hey guys,

DM'ing Hell's Vengeance right now, and getting into part 2.

First, I have to say that while I do enjoy - and my player too - the ap so far, who offer lots of RP opportunities and, for once, encourage player to be evil, It has been a real struggle on me since we started as I had to change SO MANY THINGS to get the first part playable.
To be honest, I doubt anyone could play it as written, wich is a shame since there is so much to like otherwise.

You can run it as written... I just did (albeit it was a solo campaign).


Going into part 2 I can already see the same problem, here are the one I have the most problem with :

- The NPC get invited into the super-private small council of the town the day after getting into town, making it in my case a risible case where there is almost more PC than NPC in the council room.

Understandable. My take was that they are either distant cousins/mercenaries actively sought out by Loredana.


- The NPC have to be so atrocely stupid to not realize sooner that it could be a little wierd that so much bad stuff start to happen some days after a bunch of guy with armor and weapon just got into town.

They are. Save for Faydreth and Linton. Oppian is just too busy for anything else.
He is conflicted that he just killed his best friend, he is in love with someone who he knows doesn't love him, he is under pressure to make these sacrifices worth it as he has no time for love due to the things happening beforehand and afterwards.
See the 15 Riot Points event. It should trigger beforehand too. As well as Kalcyra who seems to be versed in logic thinking. The other NPC's met at the Brunch can be influenced by the PC's.


- Almost half of the guard in town are able to cast detect evil. Noone ever seems to think it could be a good idea to just use it on those guys with big stick randomly getting into a war-zone

Evil != evil. Yes, an evil Alignment is an indicator that someone is a bad person. Then there is Undetectable Alignment which comes online at level 2(Bard) or Level 3/4 (Cleric/Oracle).
Furthermore Kantaria is not a War-Zone.... it will be at the end of the Path but before that it has become quite idillic. The same old big mouthed farmers that bashed the rule of house Thrune are now bashing the rule of the "Glorious Reclamation".


-...And so much more.

If anyone DM'ed it, would you have some tips - Not necessarily adressing the topics I just listed - on running it ? I would really appreciate all of your goods idea, since as of now, I feel like i'll need to spend quite a lot of time tweaking the AP myself. (And god, I can already see how part 3 will be even more painful)

Thank you a lot for your help, and sorry for my bad english.

Don't spring the tea-party-brunch on them directly. Let them settle a few days, investigate things before starting to move. Both as advice from Razelago, Fex or Loredana as well as giving yourself time to describe the setting and letting them pose as proper guards.
If Cimri is still there she can be an excellent advisor for things.
The only things that need tweaking are the encounters. Even with only one PC they were over in ~2 rounds. By the time other guards were there she was gone (mostly Invisibility potions but they worked).
Hope you all will have fun with it though.

[Eldonauran]

- The NPC have to be so atrocely stupid to not realize sooner that it could be a little wierd that so much bad stuff start to happen some days after a bunch of guy with armor and weapon just got into town.
I don't understand this either. You have a small town. Things are going well. You get uppity and start thinking of rebelling, some strangers come into town, and stuff starts going wrong? Yep, I'd be very suspicious of the new guys.


- Almost half of the guard in town are able to cast detect evil. Noone ever seems to think it could be a good idea to just use it on those guys with big stick randomly getting into a war-zone
Pro-tip (and one that a lot of people don't actually catch), characters under 5 HD that do not possess an Aura of [alignment] (like clerics, paladins, etc), do not register as any particular type of alignment. Check out the table under detect evil (Aligned Creature - Aura [none] - 4 HD or less). Now, once 5 HD comes around, and they started 'pinging' on the evil radar, then Undetectable Alignment comes into play.


If anyone DM'ed it, would you have some tips - Not necessarily adressing the topics I just listed - on running it ? I would really appreciate all of your goods idea, since as of now, I feel like i'll need to spend quite a lot of time tweaking the AP myself. (And god, I can already see how part 3 will be even more painful)
I always tweak the adventure paths. They are created as a 'catch all' for a party to go through, without planning for all eventualities that might come up with YOUR unique set of players/characters. I suggest always tailoring your adventures to your players. For me, that would involve making all the NPCs dynamic and responsive. They will notice the characters showed up near the time of troubles starting and will be suspicious. Social skills just got harder and even more so if their Sense Motive rolls very well.


Thank you a lot for your help, and sorry for my bad english.
Your English is great. No apologies :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

Hey guys,

DM'ing Hell's Vengeance right now, and getting into part 2.

First, I have to say that while I do enjoy - and my player too - the ap so far, who offer lots of RP opportunities and, for once, encourage player to be evil, It has been a real struggle on me since we started as I had to change SO MANY THINGS to get the first part playable.

To be honest, I doubt anyone could play it as written, wich is a shame since there is so much to like otherwise.
.

Want to go into detail? I'm about to run it.
And while I changed a few classes/feats that still thematically fit, I don't see much that has to change.

[Dezea]

Thanks for the answer everybody !

@Krazzman : Good tips here for the brunch, thanks. I'm really conflicted with that Kalcyra event also, since I find very hard to believe she would assault the pc without even warning Oppian, and that the PC could just walk away from murdering Oppian closest councillor after it. Furthermore since she's the one presented at the "No-nonsense logical thinker", indeed.

@Eldonauran : Sadly, all of them get to 5hd really fast after arriving in town. With the xp of my PC, I do expect them to get to lvl 5 at the end of the first session of play in town. And sadly also, they don't have a priest or a bard. (I'll add that playing a priest who is forced to be evil is really painful, and ours decided to go healing oracle because of it...)

@Starbuck : For the one that comes to mind immediatly (Spoiler included) :

- Darellus Fex could single-handedly deal with every matter at hand, him being a 12 level wizard. Even with the far fetched assumption that he'd like to keep his power hidden, the last dungeon of the scenario could basicaly be solved with him teleporting in fly over it, and running two fireball on the whole things. No explication offered as of why he doesn't

- The AP start with no motivation whatsoever for the pc except "Agree with the lady asking you to commit a crime, pretty please". This is even more absurb that this does definitely look like petty thief, while the pc are expected to be on the lawful side of the spectrum.

- The whole situation in town is expected to go back to calm because the PC present to the town the dead bodies of the angel knight who is in fact a Denatse (A special kind of beggars tortured by Zon-Kuthon). Noone seems to be able to think that since NOONE ever saw her face...Probably noone would believe that this wretched body is indeed the angel knight.

- The town is expected to be full of retired Veteran, but when the NPC publicly execute the sons of the Iomedaen priestess, there is absolytely no revolt but for a small group of glorious revolution follower. The passivity of the town is here also incredible, moreso since Darellus Fex doesn't show his immense magical skills.

This comes first in my head, but I expect you to have to find some more tweaks too. I cleary had to change a lot of things. That being said, we had a lot of good times, and some moment offer awesome roleplaying. Hope you enjoy your run !

[Krazzman]

Thanks for the answer everybody !

@Krazzman : Good tips here for the brunch, thanks. I'm really conflicted with that Kalcyra event also, since I find very hard to believe she would assault the pc without even warning Oppian, and that the PC could just walk away from murdering Oppian closest councillor after it. Furthermore since she's the one presented at the "No-nonsense logical thinker", indeed.

My wife solved this the following way:
She saved Zara Orcelani and spared the prisoners from hardship hearth, killed the ghosts and then put them into a spy network, they told her Kalcyra was coming from X with 3 weird Dog creatures. Then she intercepted her even getting to Oppian.
The whole sabotage took about 10 days ingame. Which was pretty rushed.


@Eldonauran : Sadly, all of them get to 5hd really fast after arriving in town. With the xp of my PC, I do expect them to get to lvl 5 at the end of the first session of play in town. And sadly also, they don't have a priest or a bard. (I'll add that playing a priest who is forced to be evil is really painful, and ours decided to go healing oracle because of it...)

@Starbuck : For the one that comes to mind immediatly (Spoiler included) :

- Darellus Fex could single-handedly deal with every matter at hand, him being a 12 level wizard. Even with the far fetched assumption that he'd like to keep his power hidden, the last dungeon of the scenario could basicaly be solved with him teleporting in fly over it, and running two fireball on the whole things. No explication offered as of why he doesn't

- The AP start with no motivation whatsoever for the pc except "Agree with the lady asking you to commit a crime, pretty please". This is even more absurb that this does definitely look like petty thief, while the pc are expected to be on the lawful side of the spectrum.

- The whole situation in town is expected to go back to calm because the PC present to the town the dead bodies of the angel knight who is in fact a Denatse (A special kind of beggars tortured by Zon-Kuthon). Noone seems to be able to think that since NOONE ever saw her face...Probably noone would believe that this wretched body is indeed the angel knight.

- The town is expected to be full of retired Veteran, but when the NPC publicly execute the sons of the Iomedaen priestess, there is absolytely no revolt but for a small group of glorious revolution follower. The passivity of the town is here also incredible, moreso since Darellus Fex doesn't show his immense magical skills.

This comes first in my head, but I expect you to have to find some more tweaks too. I cleary had to change a lot of things. That being said, we had a lot of good times, and some moment offer awesome roleplaying. Hope you enjoy your run !

About having an Oracle instead of a Cleric (it's still a second level spell, so give them a wand of it). The start of Part 1 is a bit... forced, yes. But it's up to the DM to weave that into a compelling reason. Cimri's role is to encourage the PC's to be more evil than evil, to take the next step towards greater evil and maliciousness.
And the public execution had the rightful law on the PC's side. Those 2 fools were encountered trying to free a lawfully imprisoned person.

[Dezea]

@Krazzman : Yup, it does indeed need some DM tweaking, wich is why I'm complaining...To be honest, I'm maybe a bit too harsh on the AP, but I feel it to be seriously wrong when the beginning of the ap is so lackluster. And don't get me started on the poo-throwing encounter, I'm always in for some fun, but I feel that the beginning of the ap should give the player the occasion to feel special and part of something. Not getting thrown @@@@ at.

As for the public execution...I don't see it as lawful in any way. There is no trial at all, the PC are in no way in position to rightfully enforce law (As written, at least) and It could be seriously argued that since the twin are helped in their mission by a being or pure law, they were (In the spirit of the law at least) justified in there attempt. At least in mine, they definitely were, since the culprit was that poor Boggart, who ended up in jail for basicaly a really minor offense, moreover to guys who are not in any way officialy member of the law enforcement.

And, to be honest, even if all of the forementioned point were moot - I do really hope that word exist - I would still expect the people in town to react more strongly to the execution of the two boys of the Priestess without any trial.

[Biguds]

Hello guys.

Our group will start The Inferno Gate (the third adventure) today, and as far I can tell, everything is going according the books.

Initially we had a Human Fighter, Human uRogue, Fetchling uRogue, Dhampyr Wizard and a Human Druid. The druid was killed on the spot by the and of tannery heist, after he murdered the old cart lady (It was "taxes collection", not an assassination!) and the wizard player just went missing... so or party was Human Fighter, Human uRogue, Fetchling uRogue and Cimri... a Human Rogue/Warrior.
Apart from our obvious lack of magic (only felt against the hound archon), everything was taken directly from the book, nothing more, nothing less. And it went pretty well!

Book 2 had the sole modification: Cimri went Gunslinger (Bolt Ace), as she liked the feel of critical hits with a mwk ligh crossbow against the Archon and the Angel Knight. So, party was Human Fighter, Human uRogue/Swashbuckler/Fighter, Fetchling uRogue and Cimri.
All missions happened as book suggested. Everyone made disguises as Loredana bodyguards (Fighter and Cimri), old acquaintance from Nidal (Fetchling) and little sister of Fighter (the mess of classes). Party made Diplomacy rolls here and there, stayed far from apear as murderhobos as possible and nobody had any suspition against then, as nobody had 5 HD apart from Cimri, who roleplayed as a chelian mercenary (A paladin guard even talked to her about her "bad thoughts").

Well, all I can tell that it all was our party merit. They played the campaign, not went "full adventure time". As our Fighter (now Hellknight) always say: "This is an elite unity, we serve the Cheliaxian Empire. We're not adventurers."

And sorry by the english to.

[Starbuck_II]

Hello guys.

Our group will start The Inferno Gate (the third adventure) today, and as far I can tell, everything is going according the books.

Initially we had a Human Fighter, Human uRogue, Fetchling uRogue, Dhampyr Wizard and a Human Druid. The druid was killed on the spot by the and of tannery heist, after he murdered the old cart lady (It was "taxes collection", not an assassination!) and the wizard player just went missing... so or party was Human Fighter, Human uRogue, Fetchling uRogue and Cimri... a Human Rogue/Warrior.
Apart from our obvious lack of magic (only felt against the hound archon), everything was taken directly from the book, nothing more, nothing less. And it went pretty well!

Book 2 had the sole modification: Cimri went Gunslinger (Bolt Ace), as she liked the feel of critical hits with a mwk ligh crossbow against the Archon and the Angel Knight. So, party was Human Fighter, Human uRogue/Swashbuckler/Fighter, Fetchling uRogue and Cimri.
All missions happened as book suggested. Everyone made disguises as Loredana bodyguards (Fighter and Cimri), old acquaintance from Nidal (Fetchling) and little sister of Fighter (the mess of classes). Party made Diplomacy rolls here and there, stayed far from apear as murderhobos as possible and nobody had any suspition against then, as nobody had 5 HD apart from Cimri, who roleplayed as a chelian mercenary (A paladin guard even talked to her about her "bad thoughts").

Well, all I can tell that it all was our party merit. They played the campaign, not went "full adventure time". As our Fighter (now Hellknight) always say: "This is an elite unity, we serve the Cheliaxian Empire. We're not adventurers."

And sorry by the english to.

Wait, explain Druid part? Why was he killed?
Cimri said she would help get them off even if they did their crimes, didn't she?

[Biguds]

Yes, but our party is LE, with enfasis on Lawful. They all came to collect taxes, not assassinate. They went all the way to the Angel Knight with non-lethal damage and only fought for self defense.