[Theoretical Optimization] Holey Crap ! Or How to destroy a plane every two rounds

[remetagross]

Hello Playgrounders,

This is a theoretical optimization build that I found, which I think gives us a very unusual and funny way to destroy a plane; and I think it is quite hard to be stopped, too.

This build relies on two assumptions.

-Your DM lets you play Dragonwrought Kobolds or other shenaningans to get early access to epic feats.
-Your DM is willing to let restreint relativity physics come into play in the game.

But this is theoretical optimization, right ? So let's assume your DM lets you do just that.


The character

Holey Crap is a 18th level Old Dragonwrought Kobold Cleric 17 Factotum 1. He has given all of his ability increases to Dex, and has bought enough Bracers of Dexterity and Tomes of Quickness in action to net a 25 in Dexterity. At his 3rd and then 6th levels he has respectively picked the Point Blank Shot and Far Shot feats. Moreover, he has been saving up skill points since the beginning of his career, meaning that by level 18, he's got at least 21 under his belt. When, at level 18, he decides to become a Factotum, he spends 20 of those points in the Spot skill.
Moreover, as a true dragon of at least Old age, he can pick up epic feats even at pre-epic levels. What does our dear kobold decides to do ? He takes, for his 18th level feat, the Distant Shot epic feat.
Holey Crap worships Grumbar, by virtue of which he can take the Time domain, and so he does.
Finally, Holey Crap picks up a set of +1 Dancing shurikens.



The trick

Holey Crap first casts on himself Contingency (which is on his spell list as a 6th-level spell by virtue of the Time Domain) coupled with Plane Shift (which he can, since as a 17th-level cleric he has CL 17, and Contingency allows for spells up to a level of one-third your CL. Plane Shift is a 5th level spell for clerics.) He decides that the Contingent Plane Shift will activate at the exact moment he fires a dancing shuriken - so that he is Plane Shifted away with the 49 remaining shurikens, while the 50th goes on its merry way towards its target. This is how I interpret the sentence (from the SRD) :

"The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means."

If the 50th shuriken were to follow the kobold, then it would make no sense to enchant a dancing thrown weapon - and Dancing weapon is a valid enhancement for thrown weapons. Just like an Enlarged character fires arrows that return to normal size just as they leave the bow, a Dancing thrown weapon fires projectiles that cease to follow their owner everywhere as soon as they are thrown.

Holey Crap then travels to a very remote outdoor area, let's assume a mountain range. The little Kobold waits for night to come. He then picks a star in the sky. As he can see the star, this means the star is in his line of sight, isn't it ? To be sure, let us look at how a line of sight is defined. From the SRD :

"To determine line of sight, pick any corner of your space and trace a line from that corner to every corner of the target's space. If at least one line doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect, then you have line of sight."

If the star can be seen, then this means that the sky above Holey Crap isn't completely filled by sight-blocking objects or effects. This seems as much RAW as it is RAI to me.

Enters in the Distant Shot feat. According to what we just said, the star is in line of sight of Holey Crap, so it is a valid target for him. Moreover, he will fire at the star with no to-hit penalty due to distance (still according to the feat) and, assuming the star in an unattended object of, say, Fine size (from the point of view of our Kobold), then its Armor Class is 10 + 8 (for the size) - 5 (because it has 0 Dex) - 2 (as an unattended item), so this makes AC 15. As he possesses the Distant Shot epic feat, he can shoot at any distance without any penalty, can't he ? He will try to shoot at the star. With his +12 BAB, and given that the shuriken is a + 1 one, Holey Crap hits with a 3 or more. Thus, before firing, he casts True Strike to make sure that only a natural 1 can make him miss it. Even though the star is maybe 10 light-years away from Holey Crap, he can hit it.

Our endearing Kobold orders his shurikens to dance, and to fire at the star. At that very moment, he gets Plane Shifted away by his Contingency spell, let's say the Astral Plane. He just needs to get out of this plane instantaneously. This point is absolutely crucial.

So what happens ? Logic tells us that the shuriken will fly a hundred feet or so before falling to the ground. This is what the SRD tells us too, as shurikens have a range increment of 10 ft, meaning that their maximum range is, precisely, 100 ft. However, epic feats rules trump logic: this is partly why they are epic, by the way. The Distant shot feat tells us

"You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight"

This means that the range of any thrown and ranged weapon that Holey Crap carries is equal to his line of sight, hence the "Distant" in the name of the feat. Gravity can go crying in a corner...or maybe not.


TL;DR : Holey Crap's shuriken has a range measured in light-years.



The scenario

Everything Holey Crap uses above is RAW (or so I hope). Apart from that, we supposed that relativity physics was in play, right ?

So, bear with me on this one. We will, for a brief moment, consider that Holey Crap has an archer twin brother, Howly Crab.
Through various shenaningans, Howly Crab's bow has a maximum range of no less than 56,7 miles. This can be achieved by several Playgrounder-found shenaningans that I can't link here, because I didn't post enough on the forum to have the right to post links. Hence I didn't link the Distant Shot feat either.
To show off towards his brother, Howley Crab picks up his bow and, without aiming at a specific place, fires as far as he can. The arrow will land somewhere around, 56,7 miles from the position of the brothers, in a single round, meaning that the arrow travelled this distance in 6 seconds. This means an impressive speed of about 34000 miles an hour - or almost 1 mile a second. Faster than a bullet, rather sweet isn't it ? About five times as fast as sound.

Not impressed, Holey Crap answers that he can fire a shuriken faster than speed of light. As we said before, he picks a star into the night and targets it; let us assume he rolls a 2 or more. The shuriken flies to the star. In all likeliness, the star will be more than 1 8000 000 kms away from Holey, right ? (The Sun is about one hundred times this far from Earth). This means that the shuriken will travel at least that much distance in exactly 6 seconds; thus, the shuriken travels at least at 1 800 000 / 6 = 300 000 km per second. Which happens to be the speed of light.

Now, all of this convoluted reasoning about stars and stuff was just to allow Holey to fire a projectile to such a great range, that this would make the projectile outpace light itself. This is the conclusion of all that long and messy story, and it is interesting because, of course, relativity will not let that happen.


TL;DR : The shuriken, travelling millions of kilometers in one round, is faster than light itself.


As the shuriken accelerates, its gravitational mass greatly increases. This is what a relativity physics rule, the Lorentz factor, tells us for any object that moves close to the speed of light. In fact, if the speed of light is actually reached (which is the case here), the mass of the objects grows to become infinite. But then, at some point before becoming infinite, it will cross a certain mass threshold, derived from something called the Swcharzchild radius. Schwarzchild tells us that if any object gets dense enough, it becomes a black hole. To make a object denser, either you make it smaller without changing its mass, until the object gets smaller than its Schwarzchild radius; or you make it heavier without changing its size, which amounts to the same. Remember what happens to the mass of the Dancing shuriken ?

Soooooo...the final conclusion is that Holey Crap just created a black hole. Goodbye, Material Plane (and poor twin brother). Of course, the Contingency spell has Plane Shifted the nifty kobold out of trouble just in the nick of time. Neat, isn't it ?


TL;DR : Thanks to relativity physics, the shuriken turns into a black hole and destroys the plane.


One round later, Holey Crap casts Contingency on himself. The round after that, he throws a shuriken. Rinse, repeat.



Behind the scene

Why do we need a Dancing weapon ? In fact, we need a throwing weapon : if we take a bow or a sling, the string of the bow or the pouch of the sling will get to the speed of light just as well as the projectile does, and thus the weapon itself will turn into a black hole just like the projectile. Since our weapon is following us in the Plane Shift, we don't want that to happen.
Why doesn't air friction consume the projectile before it accelerates too much ?

Because the acceleration has to be instantaneous : if our shuriken is to travel 1.800.000 km in 6 seconds, it has to move at 300.000 km/s during every bit of the 6 seconds. It thus gets from 0 km/s to the speed of light in exactly 0 seconds. This is of course impossible, so let us say that it takes Planck's time (around 10-44seconds) for the shuriken to accelerate. Planck's time is the shortest amount of time to have a physical meaning in quantum theory; no phenomenon can happen within an amount of time smaller than that. Well, so if it takes that much time for the shuriken to accelerate, then by the moment it has reached the speed of light, the shuriken will have traveled such a small distance (Planck's distance, actually, around 10-35m) that it will not have crossed the mean free space between two air particles (around 10-8m).That is, it will not have collided with any air particle yet (this collision being the source of air friction), and it will already be a black hole. So, no air friction.

That said though, I'm not a great relativity physicist :smallsmile:. I only have had a three-months course about it in engineering school, and this is what I've garnered from it. It may be possible that I am completely mistaken about the whole stuff; I'd be happy to hear the opinion of any Playgrounder who has a bit of background on this topic. :smallsmile:

Some cheesy mechanism that I explored earlier might not be RAW too, but I'm confident there are many ways of giving an infinite (or at least, a 1.800.000 km ) range to a weapon, which is what is needed for the trick to work. Heck, in fact the character doesn't even need to ignore range increment maluses for this trick to work : just as Howly Crab did, he can just fire as far as he can without aiming at something specific; all the same, the projectile will travel the required distance, befor falling to some random place.
Similarly, if the Dancing Throwing weapon trick doesn't work, I'm sure there is another way to make the weapon fire itself without being transported by the Plane Shift.
And of course, the epic feat trick might not be acceptable, though I've read quite a lot of arguing about that one and people tend to think it's RAW. But there may be another way to grab this epic feat before going epic.

As to how to prevent Holey Crap from doing this. Of course gods will probably stop the nascent black hole before it devours the whole plane, but this can be opposed to almost every way to destroy a plane anyway. But what I find elegant in this trick is that if Holey Crap goes to some remote island or something, he can quietly create his black hole without anyone noticing it. No particularly impressive magic is implied, 6th-level spells at best, and instantaneous at that. The black hole itself is not magical, so it can't tip off magic guardians of the plane or whatever that constantly look for ovepowering magical events.
I have to admit, however, that I don't know at which speed the black hole will grow up and destroy everything; if it takes more than a few seconds, I guess that powerful mages around the world can notice that something weird is happening and stop the black hole in its track.

Finally, pulling off this trick at level 18 is kinda late, and when you're a 17th level cleric, you can do pretty much anything with the plane anyway; but I haven't found how to get 20 ranks in Spot before level 18. But I find it that destroying the world with a combination of physics and magic is classy :smallcool:


TL;DR : The way I've used physics might be completely wrong since I'm no expert; and some of my stuff may not be RAW but I'm sure there are RAW ways of doing it out. Since I'm using weird physics stuff, it's hard to stop the trick too.


That's it folks. Whaddaya think about it ?

[thethird]

There are ways to get spot as a class skill. They might be relevant to you, a quick google search will surely net them.

[Flickerdart]

Nothing you've done destroys the plane. Everything in it, perhaps. Destroying the plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480176-Destroying-a-plane)is much harder.

[ahenobarbi]

TL;DR : The shuriken, travelling millions of kilometers in one round, is faster than light itself.


As the shuriken accelerates, its gravitational mass greatly increases.

It's simpler to assume that it's magically converted to tachyons (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon) which move faster than light while having finite energy, which results in it dealing normal damage (like rules say) instead of destroying big chunk of a place (not supported by rules).

[AvatarVecna]

This thread rests on the assumption that physics work the same way in D&D land as they do in reality. This is a bad assumption to make, given how many things in the rules fly completely in the face of how reality-level physics function. As an example, D&D's g (rate of acceleration due to gravity) is equal to our own planets...at least, as far as the acceleration is concerned; clearly, this makes it a planet of similar mass and density. But then consider that all objects in existence fall at the same rate of acceleration regardless of their air resistance, relative density, or general shape; there's ways to change this such as via spells or specific abilities/items, but the default is that reduced acceleration due to air resistance or weird shape is universally identical. And then consider that every object in the universe reaches terminal velocity at the same point: 200ft; even if we're assuming these rules were made with humans and other Humanoids in mind, Humans IRL with the same gravity acceleration reach terminal velocity somewhere around the 1500ft mark, nowhere close to D&D's 200.

Of course, if we're assuming that an object going faster than the speed of light would cause the universe to blow up, we don't need to be a nigh-epic kobold, all we need is a Commoner Railgun playing Hot Potato.

[Inevitability]

How are you 'saving up' skill points? Where does it say in the rules you can do that?

[AvatarVecna]

How are you 'saving up' skill points? Where does it say in the rules you can do that?

I don't think saving them up is a legal option, but retraining them would be...not sure if that makes the problem better though, cause I just kinda skimmed the OP.

[Troacctid]

By RAW, this accomplishes nothing except to throw a shuriken a very long distance. Hardly a TO-level outcome. You could have done that 12 levels earlier with greater teleport.


How are you 'saving up' skill points? Where does it say in the rules you can do that?
You can't do that. Skills don't work that way.

[icefractal]

This relies on a very specific interaction of physics and Distant Shot. Even if we accept that:
1) RL physics applies.
2) Distant Shot still works despite the physical impossibility.

Then "it accelerates it to FTL speed while still interacting with the rest of the universe" is only one possible way that Distant Shot could work. It could also:
* Turn the shuriken into tachyons until just before it hits (as mentioned by ahenobarbi).
* Warp space so that the shuriken hits a target many light-years distant but only travels a few hundred feet.
* Cause the shuriken's molecules to spontaneously disperse, and simultaneously have an exact copy form near the target (not even prohibited by physics, just incredibly unlikely).
* Shuriken takes a short-cut through another plane, ignoring things like Dimensional Lock because Epic.
* Have the shuriken fly at 0.99C to the target, then travel back in time somewhere along the way so that it hits within six seconds of being thrown instead of hundreds of years later.

Given that Distant Shot says nothing about increased damage or making a sonic boom, I think a non-destructive answer is more likely.


Edit: Also, the dancing weapon thing seems unnecessary. If you have to be 17th level anyway for the skill ranks, then simply:
1) Be a Wizard instead of a Cleric.
2) Have an Astral Projection do the throwing (or a BoB clone).

[InvisibleBison]

I think I've found some problems with the non-relativistic physics aspect of this trick.

Firstly, I don't think dancing is a valid enchantment for ranged weapons. It's only listed on the melee weapon special ability table, not on the ranged weapon special ability table. The ability doesn't explicitly say that it can't be placed on ranged weapons, though, which it might be expected to (compare to the distance ability, which explicitly says it can only be put on ranged weapons).

Secondly, the dancing ability can only attack adjacent foes, which the star you propose to shoot at most certainly is not.

Thirdly, distant shot doesn't say that it lets you attack beyond the normal range limit of your weapon; it merely removes the penalty for firing at targets beyond the first range increment. But that penalty is a distinct rule from the weapon's maximum range, and removing it doesn't necessarily remove the maximum range either.

[Âmesang]

Honestly my first thought is that the shuriken is surrounded by some sort of magical equivalent to Flash's "Speed Force." Basically it travels light years without effecting physics because "shut up, it does." :smalltongue:

Besides, isn't this inferring that there's no invisible object getting in the way? Also, are we referring to the Material Plane as a single planet (Oerth, Toril, Krynn, &c.), or a whole crystal sphere/solar system (Greyspace, Realmspace, Krynnspace, &c.)?

[remetagross]

This thread rests on the assumption that physics work the same way in D&D land as they do in reality. This is a bad assumption to make, given how many things in the rules fly completely in the face of how reality-level physics function.

Of course, if we're assuming that an object going faster than the speed of light would cause the universe to blow up, we don't need to be a nigh-epic kobold, all we need is a Commoner Railgun playing Hot Potato.

Well, I agree that D&D just doesn't care about physics; this is why I assumed in the beginning that the DM was letting physics get into play, because is is nowhere near an evident thing. Only if the DM is allowing this can this trick be pulled off. In fact, the point of this trick is precisely to show how absurd it gets when you decide to apply physics in a D&D games.

And for the Commoner Peasant, it does not work because air fraction consumes the projectile at an early stage, whereas it doesn't prevent Holey Crap to pull off his trick. But I see your point anyway : there are earlier ways to do this.


It's simpler to assume that it's magically converted to tachyons which move faster than light while having finite energy, which results in it dealing normal damage (like rules say) instead of destroying big chunk of a place (not supported by rules).

Well, the shuriken doesn't gave to get faster than light, atually; getting at 99,(put 110 9s here) % of the speed of light suffices. So, no need to bring in tachyons.


Nothing you've done destroys the plane. Everything in it, perhaps. Destroying the plane is much harder.

Well, true. I did mean "Destroying everything in it" :)


There are ways to get spot as a class skill. They might be relevant to you, a quick google search will surely net them.

I've found two feats, but those are 1st level-only feat, so they mess up with Dragonwrought Kobold, which also needs to be taken at level 1.


By RAW, this accomplishes nothing except to throw a shuriken a very long distance. Hardly a TO-level outcome. You could have done that 12 levels earlier with greater teleport.




You can't do that. Skills don't work that way.

Well, the point is hardly to throw a shuriken very far away. The point is to throw a shuriken at such a speed that the shuriken becomes a black hole; if you simply Greater Teleport far away and then throw the shuriken, you have created no black hole at all.

As for the skills, my bad, I think I could choose to spend them at a later time after getting them. Retraining will do the trick, then, I guess.


This relies on a very specific interaction of physics and Distant Shot. Even if we accept that:
1) RL physics applies.
2) Distant Shot still works despite the physical impossibility.

Then "it accelerates it to FTL speed while still interacting with the rest of the universe" is only one possible way that Distant Shot could work. It could also:
* Turn the shuriken into tachyons until just before it hits (as mentioned by ahenobarbi).
* Warp space so that the shuriken hits a target many light-years distant but only travels a few hundred feet.
* Cause the shuriken's molecules to spontaneously disperse, and simultaneously have an exact copy form near the target (not even prohibited by physics, just incredibly unlikely).
* Shuriken takes a short-cut through another plane, ignoring things like Dimensional Lock because Epic.
* Have the shuriken fly at 0.99C to the target, then travel back in time somewhere along the way so that it hits within six seconds of being thrown instead of hundreds of years later.

Given that Distant Shot says nothing about increased damage or making a sonic boom, I think a non-destructive answer is more likely.


Edit: Also, the dancing weapon thing seems unnecessary. If you have to be 17th level anyway for the skill ranks, then simply:
1) Be a Wizard instead of a Cleric.
2) Have an Astral Projection do the throwing (or a BoB clone).

A way to bypass this issue is to throw the shuriken not at faster than light speed, but at (as said higher) 99, (followed with 110 9s) % of speed light; it creates a black hole all the same, and there is no faster-than-light weird consequences.
As for the Astral Projection or Body Outside Body, great, thanks for the tip ! I chose a cleric because Plane Shift is 7th level for wizards, and thus it can't be made a Contingent Spell; but if Holey Crap picks the Travel Domain, he gets Astral Projection as a cleric spell, so problem solved.


I think I've found some problems with the non-relativistic physics aspect of this trick.
[...]

Distant shot doesn't say that it lets you attack beyond the normal range limit of your weapon; it merely removes the penalty for firing at targets beyond the first range increment. But that penalty is a distinct rule from the weapon's maximum range, and removing it doesn't necessarily remove the maximum range either.

Hmm. From the SRD :

"You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight, with no penalty for range. "

My interpretation is that if the feat worked how you say it does, then there would be no comma after "sight". The fact that there is one makes me think that the feat has two distinct effects, and those two effects are separated by a comma in the formulation of the feat. The wording "at any target within line of sight" means, to my understanding, "whereas normally, you can only fire at a target within line of sight and within range".
Either way, there may be another means of getting nigh-infinite range that I am not aware of; but what do you Playgrounders think about the interpretation of this feat ?

TL;DR : the trick still works if the shuriken goes almost at light speed, which removes a lot of trouble.

[Troacctid]

Well, the point is hardly to throw a shuriken very far away. The point is to throw a shuriken at such a speed that the shuriken becomes a black hole;
That has no basis in the rules.

[Mechalich]

The existence of Spelljammer means that that it is explicitly permitted to surpass light speed in physical space in D&D. So throwing a shuriken that reaches some impossible speed just means you have a shuriken going really fast. Further, the Spelljammer setting (which is still nominally canon since nothing has ever overturned it) means that all the other stars are in separate crystal spheres and without undertaking a passage through the Phlogiston nothing can reach them, so your shuriken just ends up plinking around on the edge of the crystal sphere.

D&D doesn't have real world physics, it has its own mind-bendingly insane physics. That's worth remembering.

[Zombimode]

And for the Commoner Peasant, it does not work because air fraction consumes the projectile at an early stage, whereas it doesn't prevent Holey Crap to pull off his trick.

Actually, why isn't the shuriken destroyed by friction?

[remetagross]

That has no basis in the rules.

Well, indeed it does not; but my post began with the assumption that the DM was allowing physics in the setting. Peasant Railgun has no basis in the rules either, and still it's a well-known theoretical build; this is just the same.


The existence of Spelljammer means that that it is explicitly permitted to surpass light speed in physical space in D&D. So throwing a shuriken that reaches some impossible speed just means you have a shuriken going really fast. Further, the Spelljammer setting (which is still nominally canon since nothing has ever overturned it) means that all the other stars are in separate crystal spheres and without undertaking a passage through the Phlogiston nothing can reach them, so your shuriken just ends up plinking around on the edge of the crystal sphere.

D&D doesn't have real world physics, it has its own mind-bendingly insane physics. That's worth remembering.

Ok, I didn't know about that one setting; but this post works under the assumption that your DM lets you play in a hypothetical setting where physics works like it does in our world. Again, Peasant Railgun is useless by RAW, because throwing weapon damage doesn't account for the speed of the throwing, and yet it is a funny trick to consider. This trick is of the same kind.


Actually, why isn't the shuriken destroyed by friction?

It is written under the "It's complicated" spoiler.

[Troacctid]

Well, indeed it does not; but my post began with the assumption that the DM was allowing physics in the setting. Peasant Railgun has no basis in the rules either, and still it's a well-known theoretical build; this is just the same.
Do you know what happens if you use real-world physics and you hurl a thrown weapon at a target 100 light-years away? It takes a very, very long time for the thrown weapon to get there, if it gets there at all. Because according to real-world physics, projectiles don't travel faster when they're aimed at a more distant target.

I don't think you can fairly claim to be applying the real-world laws of physics if you're also selectively ignoring the parts of real-world physics that are inconvenient for your trick.

[remetagross]

Do you know what happens if you use real-world physics and you hurl a thrown weapon at a target 100 light-years away? It takes a very, very long time for the thrown weapon to get there, if it gets there at all. Because according to real-world physics, projectiles don't travel faster when they're aimed at a more distant target.

I don't think you can fairly claim to be applying the real-world laws of physics if you're also selectively ignoring the parts of real-world physics that are inconvenient for your trick.

Well, this is kinda true. This mix of rules and physics is quite messy, and I am indeed ignoring some physics and not ignoring some others. There is, however, a non-arbitrary reason to proceed like this.
When I consider this trick, I suppose it works like physics would tell us, except when RAW overwrites physics.
So, RAW tells us that if you hit with a range attack, the projectile will deal damage the round you fired it. So be it. However, to the best of my knowledge, RAW doesn't describe how projectiles' velocity affect their behaviour, so I take physics for that one.

Once again, in the Peasant Railgun trick, according to real-world physics, it takes more than 0 seconds to pass an item from one person to the other; yet, the trick works, because RAW supersedes this by stating that passing an item to a neighbor is a free action. Then again, RAW doesn't tell us how enormemously accelerated projectiles work, so when in a lack of rules, we describe the phenomenon by using real-world physics, and the Rule of Cool.

What to you think of this ?

[AvatarVecna]

Well, this is kinda true. This mix of rules and physics is quite messy, and I am indeed ignoring some physics and not ignoring some others. There is, however, a non-arbitrary reason to proceed like this.
When I consider this trick, I suppose it works like physics would tell us, except when RAW overwrites physics.
So, RAW tells us that if you hit with a range attack, the projectile will deal damage the round you fired it. So be it. However, to the best of my knowledge, RAW doesn't describe how projectiles' velocity affect their behaviour, so I take physics for that one.

Once again, in the Peasant Railgun trick, according to real-world physics, it takes more than 0 seconds to pass an item from one person to the other; yet, the trick works, because RAW supersedes this by stating that passing an item to a neighbor is a free action. Then again, RAW doesn't tell us how enormemously accelerated projectiles work, so when in a lack of rules, we describe the phenomenon by using real-world physics, and the Rule of Cool.

What to you think of this ?

RAW is a strict construction approach to reading rules; the only things that can happen are those allowed by the rules; anything else is outside those rules and is subject to DM judgement. Real-world physics is only relevant if the game rules explicitly call it out as being relevant; if there is no special rule indicating that projectiles travelling at speeds approaching the speed of light are subject to real-world relationships between velocity and energy, then the only thing that happens is that the projectile travels to its destination. In D&D land, RL physics are not the default.

EDIT: Not to say you couldn't pull something like this in a real game, if your DM is willing to ignore RAW in favor of the Rule Of Cool, but it's definitely not RAW compliant.

[Troacctid]

If you eliminate principles of real-world physics that are explicitly contradicted by the rules, then anything based on special relativity is gone, because it's explicitly possible to move at relativistic speeds without relativistic consequences. In fact, in some cases, the consequences are the opposite of what special relativity predicts, which seems to debunk the theory pretty handily if you ask me.

[remetagross]

RAW is a strict construction approach to reading rules; the only things that can happen are those allowed by the rules; anything else is outside those rules and is subject to DM judgement. Real-world physics is only relevant if the game rules explicitly call it out as being relevant; if there is no special rule indicating that projectiles travelling at speeds approaching the speed of light are subject to real-world relationships between velocity and energy, then the only thing that happens is that the projectile travels to its destination. In D&D land, RL physics are not the default.


Agreed, they are not the default, hence in my introduction :"Let us assume your DM lets physics come into play", which answers to the fact that, as you said, "anything else is outside those rules and is subject to DM judgement."



EDIT: Not to say you couldn't pull something like this in a real game, if your DM is willing to ignore RAW in favor of the Rule Of Cool, but it's definitely not RAW compliant.

Once again, agreed, just as the Peasant Railgun is not RAW-compliant; in fact, the whole thing is more to describe to your DM something completely incredible that you can do in the game rather than actually pulling it off (except for Rule of Cool, of course). Which DM has ever allowed a Peasant Railgun to actually work ? And yet the Peasant Railgun is very fun to describe. My trick is a variation of the Peasant Railgun theme, with the same implications about rule.

Maybe I badly explained my trick, because in my head it worked just like a Peasant Railgun, whith all this it means in terms of viabitlity, RAW and DM compliance, but people don't seem to understand it like that.


If you eliminate principles of real-world physics that are explicitly contradicted by the rules, then anything based on special relativity is gone, because it's explicitly possible to move at relativistic speeds without relativistic consequences. In fact, in some cases, the consequences are the opposite of what special relativity predicts, which seems to debunk the theory pretty handily if you ask me.

Ah, I wasn't aware of this, damn. Well, maybe we can find a way to work around this one. How can you get to relativistic speeds in D&D ?

[Inevitability]

Ah, I wasn't aware of this, damn. Well, maybe we can find a way to work around this one. How can you get to relativistic speeds in D&D ?

Extended Persistent Footsteps of the Divine combined with the Run feat and some other stuff tacked on is the easiest way to do it.

[Khedrac]

Add to this, you say that you can throw the shuriken at the star because you can see it, now is this actually true?

Starting with the fact that if you are using SpellJammer and Crystal Spheres, the star may not actually exist - it could be something seen "through" the crystal sphere which is totally unreachable, it could be an illusion, it could be a light held by a walker on the sphere etc.

Next, if it is similar to stars in conventional physics, can you see it or the light it produces?
This question is not as trivial as it seems, for non-light sources you see them by the light reflecting off them.
Further, seeing an object usually means being able to discern any features present on it.
It is commonly accepted that bright lights can swamp the visual signature of things so that they cannot be seen (part of the reason pilots like to attack from the sun).
I think that there is a very good argument that you cannot see the distant star, you see its light which is not the same thing. Even with the sun, one has to use imaging techniques to see solar flares, sunspots or the corona (and yes, using a total eclipse is an imaging technique). If you cannot see the details of the sun, can you really see it, or is it hidden behind the light it produces?
If you cannot see it, it ceases to be a valid target for far shot.

[remetagross]

Extended Persistent Footsteps of the Divine combined with the Run feat and some other stuff tacked on is the easiest way to do it.

I have heard about that trick but I only found a combination that brings you to 10 % of the speed of light - not bad, but not relativist either. An object moving at 10 % of the speed of light gets a Lorentz factor of 0,99, so close to 1 that relativist effects don't appear. Though indeed, if some trick in D&D allows for any mass to move at about 20 % of c, then I'm in trouble.


Add to this, you say that you can throw the shuriken at the star because you can see it, now is this actually true?

Starting with the fact that if you are using SpellJammer and Crystal Spheres, the star may not actually exist - it could be something seen "through" the crystal sphere which is totally unreachable, it could be an illusion, it could be a light held by a walker on the sphere etc.

Next, if it is similar to stars in conventional physics, can you see it or the light it produces?
This question is not as trivial as it seems, for non-light sources you see them by the light reflecting off them.
Further, seeing an object usually means being able to discern any features present on it.
It is commonly accepted that bright lights can swamp the visual signature of things so that they cannot be seen (part of the reason pilots like to attack from the sun).
I think that there is a very good argument that you cannot see the distant star, you see its light which is not the same thing. Even with the sun, one has to use imaging techniques to see solar flares, sunspots or the corona (and yes, using a total eclipse is an imaging technique). If you cannot see the details of the sun, can you really see it, or is it hidden behind the light it produces?
If you cannot see it, it ceases to be a valid target for far shot.


I see your point. But first, do you agree with the fact that Distant Shot does give Holey Crap a range only limited by his line of sight ?
If you agree, then let's see what you are saying. I'm not convinced by "you cannot see the distant star, you see its light which is not the same thing". I think it is the same thing. What does "seeing something" mean ? It means that some light emitted by that something comes to your eye and is processed by your brain. The light can either be produced by the something or reflected from another light source.
But I think that you are referring to the fact that light can propagate to our eye in non-linear ways, like in a mirage, right ? I see the star, but as the light from the star does not travel in a direct path to my eye, the star is spatially not where its image might suggest to my brain. In that case, you have a fair point, I may indeed miss the star because it appears to be where it is not.
However, I don't think I'd need to see some fine details of the star. When you play darts, at the center of the target you see a white, even spot. Even though you're not close enough to see the little plastic parts from which it is made, you can still aim at it, can't you ?

Anyway, in fact, the mirage problem still holds. Maybe true seeing can allow you to see through mirages. I thnik it can, because it can pierce mundane, non-magical darknes, that is, it can allow you to see through mundane optical impedimenta. This would solve this problem, I suppose. What do you think ?

[InvisibleBison]

Hmm. From the SRD :

"You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight, with no penalty for range. "

My interpretation is that if the feat worked how you say it does, then there would be no comma after "sight". The fact that there is one makes me think that the feat has two distinct effects, and those two effects are separated by a comma in the formulation of the feat. The wording "at any target within line of sight" means, to my understanding, "whereas normally, you can only fire at a target within line of sight and within range".
Either way, there may be another means of getting nigh-infinite range that I am not aware of; but what do you Playgrounders think about the interpretation of this feat ?

Yeah, the feat is ambiguous, so your interpretation is just as valid as the one I proposed (and in an actual game, I think I'd interpret the feat as you're doing now). However, I can't help but note that you didn't respond to my first two points.

[remetagross]

[...] Also, the dancing weapon thing seems unnecessary. If you have to be 17th level anyway for the skill ranks, then simply:
1) Be a Wizard instead of a Cleric.
2) Have an Astral Projection do the throwing (or a BoB clone).

Indeed, I didn't. This is because icefractal already covered that issue by proposing a more elegant solution, which is to use an Astral Projection to throw the shuriken for you. You use Plane Shift once to get out of the plane you want to destroy. You then cast Astral Projection, and manifest a secondary physical body on this plane. You then throw the shuriken with this body. This means that the black hole will appear when the hand holding the shuriken is accelerating to throw it, thus destroying your secondary body, but this is no big deal since doing this will simply end the spell. Astral Projection even removes the need for a Contingent Plane Shift, since the purpose of this contingency was to bring you out of harm's way.

[Deophaun]

TL;DR : The shuriken, travelling millions of kilometers in one round, is faster than light itself.

Every ranged weapon is faster than light. If you ever say "I ready an action for when an arrow is about to hit me," the moment in time just before it hits you on which your readied action occurs is before it has even been fired.

[Gemini476]

Extended Persistent Footsteps of the Divine combined with the Run feat and some other stuff tacked on is the easiest way to do it.

They errataed that, actually. It can't be Persisted.

Also, I'm pretty sure that that still doesn't bring you anywhere close to lightspeed - that's only +287990ft, so +2879900ft if you're doing a x10 cheetah charge. Which is +877793.52m, or +0.0029c. You'll need to multiply that by 300ish to get to lightspeed.

[remetagross]

Every ranged weapon is faster than light. If you ever say "I ready an action for when an arrow is about to hit me," the moment in time just before it hits you on which your readied action occurs is before it has even been fired.

I don't get it. Ah, because it means that suddenly, you will perform a standard action before the standard action that consisted of firing said arrow, even though by causality principle your readied standard action can only occur after the arrow has been fired ? So the arrow effectively got back in time.

Hmmm, tricky one. Especially if the standard action you have readied will kill the bowman, which then won't have the ability to fire the arrow which triggered the action...

Well in fact I think that here, what goes back to time is not the arrow itself but the information that the arrow will hit you iin the next few milliseconds, while what you decide to do with your standard action will then shape the actual path of the arrow in the normal time sequence. Do you agree with this reasoning ? According to which the arrow doesn't actually go faster than light.

But anyway, this is a very subtle logic-defying loophole hidden in D&D.

[Inevitability]

They errataed that, actually. It can't be Persisted.

Very well. In that case, there's another way. It's less elegant, but works just as well.

Be a Spellwarped creature. Gain infinite followers with standard Festering Anger + Cancer Mage + Leadership + Might Makes Right cheese. All your 6th-level followers are beguilers with the Arcane Disciple (Divination) and Versatile Spellcaster feats.

Your followers spread out across the planes (some of which are infinite in size), and all simultaneously cast Scrying on you. A number of these spells will fail to penetrate your SR, allowing you to use Spell Absorption (Speed) to gain untyped +20 feet bonuses to your speed for every casting. Stack enough of them, and your speed will exceed that of light.

[Flickerdart]

Gain infinite followers with standard Festering Anger + Cancer Mage + Leadership + Might Makes Right cheese
You would need infinity days to do this.


A number of these spells will fail to penetrate your SR, allowing you to use Spell Absorption (Speed) to gain untyped +20 feet bonuses to your speed for every casting. Stack enough of them, and your speed will exceed that of light.

Bonuses from the same source do not stack. You gain +20ft to your speed, once.

[Troacctid]

Extended Persistent Footsteps of the Divine combined with the Run feat and some other stuff tacked on is the easiest way to do it.
Time Stop is easier.

[Gemini476]

Time Stop is easier.

Addendum: Arcane Swordsages with Time Stop are slightly more difficult but also more interesting.

You can't really reliably interact with anything during the Time Stop due to the minimum duration only allowing you to full round restore maneuvers+move action move+standard action punch out a Time Stop again, but still.

Indefinite duration Time Stop, where the world is frozen and while you are mostly unable to interact with it you can move around as much as you want in that one frozen moment and do all the free action/not-an-action things you feel like doing.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple movies use that idea.


Of course, this is all dependent on your DM actually allowing you to make an Arcane Swordsage for some reason and you then betraying their trust by getting Time Stop as one of your self-targeting transmutation maneuvers. Although maybe you're not really betraying them, since the big alternative in that category is Shapechange.

[you randomly]

can some one find away to sneak the fling ally feat into this build so you could atleast throw a gnome to another solar system XD

[Bakkan]

Idiot Crusader + White Raven Tactics also allows you to move at faster than light speed.

[remetagross]

Hmm, well, if there is a way to travel faster than light that is RAW, and there seems to be some, that means RAW actually covers the case of relativist speed for objects, in that by RAW those objects behave no differently than non-relativist ones.

I thus have to admit, much to my dismay, that by RAW my trick is defeated :smallcool:
Because a DM lenient enough to let you use a mix of RAW and physics to create black holes will be in all likelihood lenient enough to allow you to get pure RAW faster than light speed too. Since it has been shown that those two tricks are mutually exclusive, and the Holey Crap trick lies on some interpretation, while the other one does absolutely not. The only logical consequence to this opposition is that the interpretation in the Holey Crap trick has been a wrong one. This means that the Holey Crap trick is, in all logic, the one to be discarded.

The only way I can still see this work is if your DM specifically stands that relativist effects occur. This then supersedes RAW, and lets the Holey Crap trick work in addition to let your faster-than-light moving character do all sorts of weird stuff like going back in time, being invisible, emitting blue flashes when he reaches the speed of light, etc.

As timefractal has put it in the previous post, here are many strange effects that could happen to a shuriken - or a character - moving faster than c.



"Then "it accelerates it to FTL speed while still interacting with the rest of the universe" is only one possible way that Distant Shot could work. It could also:
* Turn the shuriken into tachyons until just before it hits (as mentioned by ahenobarbi).
* Warp space so that the shuriken hits a target many light-years distant but only travels a few hundred feet.
* Cause the shuriken's molecules to spontaneously disperse, and simultaneously have an exact copy form near the target (not even prohibited by physics, just incredibly unlikely).
* Shuriken takes a short-cut through another plane, ignoring things like Dimensional Lock because Epic.
* Have the shuriken fly at 0.99C to the target, then travel back in time somewhere along the way so that it hits within six seconds of being thrown instead of hundreds of years later."

However, the character has to be careful to quickly double c when it accelerates, because if it decides to do a litte jogging at 0,9 c, according to the Holey Crap trick it will turn into a black hole :p

Anyway, as a DM that hasn't specifically allowed relativity but to whom the Holey Crap trick is presented, I'd let Rule of Cool allow it to fly for sure, as well as Rule of A lot of effort taken into building something fun. Id' request two or three quite high Int checks though, to show the PC developing and calculating in-game this complicated reasoning. Then I'd make the gods stop the black hole recreate everything in said plane. Wouldn't you ?
As as DM that did specifically allow relativity...well I wouldn't be that DM, just because of this kind of stuff :)

TL;DR : Crap, another complicated RAW trick proved mine to be wrong :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

If you want to really destroy all objects in an area (that can be destroyed by damage, so force effects, as well as intangible stuff like air, gravity, etc. are likely out), try making something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20138735&postcount=119) to get unlimited attacks, especially since by actual RAW the trigger happens even if you don't count your mind arrow as part of "You".

Now if you want to wreck the whole plane using that method, try getting hit with the Divine Minion template, so that you can change from what I assume is your Medium-sized normal form, to an otherwise Large-sized form. Then use the dirty trick used here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21014310&postcount=117) to use that free action, unlimited shapeshifting, to get unlimited displacement whenever you want.

Now you have unlimited attacks and movements/displacements, so just make sure that your form is capable of traversing every single corner of the plane. Use items, or whatever...that part should be easy

[remetagross]

Hahahaha a were-cryptoclidus ! Iron Chef Challenge is awesome :)

Well, duly noted.This is a pretty neat trick :)

[Troacctid]

However, the character has to be careful to quickly double c when it accelerates, because if it decides to do a litte jogging at 0,9 c, according to the Holey Crap trick it will turn into a black hole :p
Moving at 0.9c is also possible with Time Stop. That's one of the instances of the D&D rules behaving the opposite of what special relativity predicts.

[remetagross]

Indeed it is, and quite simply at that.
Well, I suppose the [Theoretical Optimization] was pretty misleading, in retrospect. I should have put [Rule of Cool], maybe.

[Zale]

Technically, the contingency is unnecessary- even should you make a black hole of infinite mass, it's gravitational influence can only propagate at the speed of light.

You'd still have hundreds of years to get away before the singularity began to draw you into itself. Of course, you could just aim at the sun- it takes longer than six seconds for light to reach us from there, which would only give the world (Assuming the sun is roughly the same distance away as in our world) seven or so minutes.

Even then you could probably just get someone to cast something like Reverse Gravity and just fling yourself free*. If you could somehow make that work on a semi-permanent basis, that'd be a pretty kick-ass setting. Imagine thousands of little worldlets and mountainous cities constantly speeding away from an advancing wave of gravitational death.


*I fully recognize that this makes no sense with how black holes work within relativity.

[remetagross]

Haha, awesome idea indeed ! And of course, the strange-shaped star in the sky would be an object of mystery and traditional lore from the people. And very long ago, the black hole was created by a villain who was defeated just before the singularity grew too close, and a powerful cabal of magicians had then cast an Epic Reverse Gravity ; and they had needed to erect several monoliths in all the differents worlds to sustain the spell, monoliths that are now the objects of superstition and mystery as no one remembers for how long they have been here and what purpose they serve. Because, to ensure the safety of it plan, the cabal of magicians had cast a plane-wide amnesia epic spell, which of course had cost them their lives. But a nowadays villains find forgotten writings that allow him to understand everything and, assisted by extraplanar invaders who want the end of the Material Plane, starts to bring down the monoliths...ehehe !

However, I believe your first point wrong, because the black hole is not created where the shuriken lands; it is created where the shuriken gets very close to the speed of light, and that is even before the hand has let if go.

Finally, why would it make no sense ? Seems fine to me, you put a - before the gravitationnal constant, and relatively to you, attraction becomes repulsion, you climb up the gravitationnal pit instead of fallinf in. However, Reverse gravity is not centered on you, and thus as you move you wil very quickly leave the area of reversed gravity and fall back in.