What kinds of monsters would be great at cheating at cards?

[Brendanicus]

So, I want to make a sidequest for my divination wizard and gambling fighter. There's a famous card shark, preferably non-humanoid, who is in town. Players would be hired to figure out how he cheats. What sort of creature would be good for this sort of quest?

[MrStabby]

So a few thoughts on abilities that would help:

Luck abilities: Portent, lucky feat, halfling luck, sorcerer bend luck

Magic abilities: Illusions (yes these are 4 aces i have just played), enchantments (yes these are 4 aces i have just played), Divination (what are the next three cards on top of the deck?)

Antimagic abilities: Seeming, any other ability to resist divination spells, high cha to resist zone of truth effects

Mundane abilities: Intelligence to calculate great odds accurately, cha to talk people into playing and to talk themselves out of trouble, dexterity for slight of hand.


I am leaning towards something like a Rakshasa. High Dex, High Cha - casts a lot of illusion magic and enchantments. has true seeing and detect thoughts to know what's happening. Mage hand for action at a distance manipulation of cards, dice etc.. In defence he is immune to attempts to read his own mind, zone of truth etc. unless the spell is level 6 or higher and still he has advantage on any save.

[smcmike]

Rakshasa is definitely the first thing that comes to mind.

It might be best to consider how the deception may be uncovered, considering both what resources your characters have available and what resources the community has available. Simple illusion or enchantment magic might be enough to fool a low-magic society, but wouldn't get a card-sharp very far in a world where every gambling den would know and expect magical cheating.

[MrFahrenheit]

Rakshasa works very well. Would throw in an imp helper too - though anything with a high sleight of hand will do.

[Shining Wrath]

Any wizard with a familiar.
Anyone partnered with a druid (pigeon on the rafter) and Rory's Telepathic Bond.
A beholder; try watching all the eyes that are watching you.
A mind flayer using mind reading techniques.
A guy with a ring of X-ray vision who has trained himself to read the faces of cards by looking through their backs.
A creature with super-high Perception such that any deck of cards that's been used more than a few times is effectively "marked"; tiny nicks and scratches that most humanoids can't see. For giggles and grins, a stereotypical barbarian with Eagle Totem, so this barely sentient oaf is cleaning up and if you call him a cheater he beats you to death using your own freshly-torn-off head as an improvised weapon.

[MrStabby]

Any wizard with a familiar.
Anyone partnered with a druid (pigeon on the rafter) and Rory's Telepathic Bond.
A beholder; try watching all the eyes that are watching you.
A mind flayer using mind reading techniques.
A guy with a ring of X-ray vision who has trained himself to read the faces of cards by looking through their backs.
A creature with super-high Perception such that any deck of cards that's been used more than a few times is effectively "marked"; tiny nicks and scratches that most humanoids can't see. For giggles and grins, a stereotypical barbarian with Eagle Totem, so this barely sentient oaf is cleaning up and if you call him a cheater he beats you to death using your own freshly-torn-off head as an improvised weapon.


Yes... if building a PC the Alert and Keen mind feats might be useful.

[Regitnui]

A disguised Brass Dragon would love the challenge; not of the game of cards, but the game of cheating and being detected. It's a sort of metagame for the intelligent dragon.

[Joe the Rat]

Rakshasa is definitely the first thing that comes to mind.

It might be best to consider how the deception may be uncovered, considering both what resources your characters have available and what resources the community has available. Simple illusion or enchantment magic might be enough to fool a low-magic society, but wouldn't get a card-sharp very far in a world where every gambling den would know and expect magical cheating.Little Myth Marker. The question of cheating comes up. Cheating with magic is almost impossible, as this is a highly magical environment where everyone and their brother's daughter's uncle's cousin's father is scoping for any sort of magical hijinks. So you simply use marked cards. Make them expect magic, then hit them with a mundane solution.

Practically speaking, any sort of subtle mind-reading or remote sensing would help in-play cheating. Divination Wizards can predict a few hands to go big or throw. A series of auguries before going in (should I bet big on the first hand? should I sandbag the first hand? the second hand? etc.) A Warlock with Gaze of Two Minds or an invisible familiar can snap back and forth. Demons and devils with telepathy have certain advantages (silent communication with watchers).

[Moosoculars]

For me it would have to be a mind flayer. Holding the cards in his tentacles and reading peoples minds would just be so good!

[smcmike]

Yeah, I love the idea of magic being a misdirection. Elaborate anti-magic defenses, fooled by some dumb mundane trick - like the end of Willow. The dumber the trick, the better.

[Telesto]

A disguised Brass Dragon would love the challenge; not of the game of cards, but the game of cheating and being detected. It's a sort of metagame for the intelligent dragon.

I agree, but Copper would be more fun with it. They'd have developed tricks within tricks and would take being caught extremely well.

[Joe the Rat]

Yeah, I love the idea of magic being a misdirection. Elaborate anti-magic defenses, fooled by some dumb mundane trick - like the end of Willow. The dumber the trick, the better.
I would love to see someone using the disappearing pig trick to cheat at cards.

[Rysto]

How about a Warlock who uses Hex to sabotage an opponent's ability to beat his Deception checks when he bluffs? That'd throw a curveball at the PCs: they'd be looking for him cheating by reading his opponents cards or whatever, when really he just gets one of them to fold way more often than he should. A partner could be using Enhance Ability on him in tandem for advantage on CHA checks.

Upon re-reading Hex, it doesn't work as well as I thought, though. I thought that the target of Hex could be switched at any time with a bonus action, but actually the target has to drop to 0HP first. Still, nerfing one opponent and knowing that specific player is going to be very susceptible to bluffs would be a fairly significant advantage for a skilled gambler.

Also, the Warlock wouldn't even have to cast the spell on his opponent. He could Hex a rat or some other small creature and then kill it with an EB or whatever, and then use a BA when the game starts to move Hex onto one opponent. That would be a clue that the PCs could see if they tail him before the game and witness him doing that, 'cause it'd be pretty strange.

[Biggstick]

Any Hag who's disguised themselves might enjoy a bit of gambling.

I'm assuming the gambling is being done inside, making a Vampire a potential cheating gambler. Maybe s/he wants to be found out and invites someone to accuse him of cheating.

Maybe the town or city you're in has had people disappearing because of a so called boogeyman! An Oni might be another good card shark for your PC's.

A Doppelganger is another decent monster in regards to playing as a card shark.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, or the guy who goes out to ruin someone else's reputation by cheating and getting caught whilst disguised as them?

[Dr. Cliché]

I hear lycanthropes have excellent poker faces. :smallbiggrin:

Bonus points if you replicate this with werewolves:

http://www.dogsplayingpoker.org/gallery/coolidge/img/a_friend_in_need.jpg

[PeteNutButter]

A Doppelganger is another decent monster in regards to playing as a card shark.

Doppelganger! They have all the smarts, can read minds and look either unsuspecting or even like some of the other proposed monsters to confuse the PCs. They think it's Raksasha or something and spend time doing knowledge checks and research, but it's really just a doppelganger.

And if he ever gets caught cheating he just pops around the corner and he is someone else.

[Dr. Cliché]

What about Mind Flayers?

I can imagine Detect Thoughts would go a long way. Also, if they're somehow caught cheating (or they lose, or they get bored), then they can just mind-blast the rest of the table.

[smcmike]

One problem with a doppelgänger is the idea of a "famous card shark." Wouldn't a doppelgänger, or most other shape/face-changers, simply change their identity before getting famous? Fame isn't a good thing for a card shark, unless it's absolutely necessary to get a seat at a particular table.

I would imagine a doppelgänger either impersonating a specific rich person or just a random rich idiot in order to get a seat, then walking off with the cash and just disappearing.

For a famous card shark, I guess I imagine someone who has an established social position, and who can use that position to induce people into playing with him, on his terms. Someone who is ultimately interested in something besides mere cash.

[Biggstick]

One problem with a doppelgänger is the idea of a "famous card shark." Wouldn't a doppelgänger, or most other shape/face-changers, simply change their identity before getting famous? Fame isn't a good thing for a card shark, unless it's absolutely necessary to get a seat at a particular table.

I would imagine a doppelgänger either impersonating a specific rich person or just a random rich idiot in order to get a seat, then walking off with the cash and just disappearing.

For a famous card shark, I guess I imagine someone who has an established social position, and who can use that position to induce people into playing with him, on his terms. Someone who is ultimately interested in something besides mere cash.

Who says the Doppelganger wouldn't want the attention? They probably have multiple identities and can assume a non-assuming identity whenever it suits them. They could even assume this non-assuming identity to meet people or potential "marks" to play against his much more famous card shark persona.

[JumboWheat01]

This reminds me of a loading screen in Dragon Age 2. "Never play cards with an elf, they'll never pay you what the owe. Never play with a Qunari, you can never tell when they're bluffing. And never play with a dwarf, they'll kill you if they lose."

How 'bout throwing in a Lich? Hard to have facial expressions when you lack a face, and all the magic they have could certainly be used for cheating, counter-cheating, and counter-cheating-cheating. Plus after a few centuries, they have to be getting a little bored, a card game could spice things up.

[Telesto]

Fame isn't a good thing for a card shark, unless it's absolutely necessary to get a seat at a particular table.

I would doubt one would be famous for cheating. One would, however, be famous at being good at card. Then people may believe they are cheating, but that doesn't mean it's true. The end result is the PCs are charged with figuring it out

[Joe the Rat]

I hear lycanthropes have excellent poker faces. :smallbiggrin:

Bonus points if you replicate this with werewolves:

http://www.dogsplayingpoker.org/gallery/coolidge/img/a_friend_in_need.jpg

Challenge accepted.

[Regitnui]

I agree, but Copper would be more fun with it. They'd have developed tricks within tricks and would take being caught extremely well.

I can never remember which of the "brown" metallic dragons is which. Brass, copper and bronze all get confused. If the copper is the one who likes playing games and being social, then yeah. That's the metagaming card shark.

Also, why not all of the above? If it's a big enough card tournament, you can say these players have come from all over to participate. The players need to find one cheater, but encounter the metagaming copper dragon, the warlock with an invisible familiar, the doppelganger using detect thoughts, the illusion-clad lich and the mind flayer who's playing completely by the rules. Their employer may be the only humanoid in the game.

[Dungeon-noob]

I can never remember which of the "brown" metallic dragons is which. Brass, copper and bronze all get confused. If the copper is the one who likes playing games and being social, then yeah. That's the metagaming card shark.

Also, why not all of the above? If it's a big enough card tournament, you can say these players have come from all over to participate. The players need to find one cheater, but encounter the metagaming copper dragon, the warlock with an invisible familiar, the doppelganger using detect thoughts, the illusion-clad lich and the mind flayer who's playing completely by the rules. Their employer may be the only humanoid in the game.
Oh god, you're going to turn into a full No game, No life, aren't you?:smalleek:

That's a great thing to do, NGNL is awesome, it's just, i think you should know what you're starting here :smallamused:

[Regitnui]

Oh god, you're going to turn into a full No game, No life, aren't you?:smalleek:

That's a great thing to do, NGNL is awesome, it's just, i think you should know what you're starting here :smallamused:

I haven't seen that anime before. Entirely coincidental, I assure you. Though that does look fun.

[WereRabbitz]

Invisible Stalker - dude would cheat and look at your cards.

[Telesto]

I can never remember which of the "brown" metallic dragons is which. Brass, copper and bronze all get confused. If the copper is the one who likes playing games and being social, then yeah. That's the metagaming card shark.

Brass- Conversations, sunlight, dry climates. They will trap people just to converse with them. As I always describe them "Hey, do you see that mountain? Well it said the other mountain is cheating on its hill with that burial mound over there. Hey what do you think of these elves over here? What are you doing, where are you going, what have you heard, whose line is it anyway? When were you born? Did you know you look like Jimmy my friend? I got to get Jimmy, he'll get a kick out of this it's like looking in a mirror between you two." And at no point does this stop to allow the person to respond until it's done. They are the only dragon which will spend an hour talking to their own cloaca if you throw your voice so it sounds like it came from there.

Bronze- They like to watch. Like... they really like to watch. They'll join in if they see an opening and feel it's the right fit for them. But they watch, all the time. -innuendo laden-

Copper- They enjoy games, they design mazes, and they play pranks. They are the prankster dragons and always have a whoopee cushion up their sleeve. They are angered if you circumvent their games, or accept them without good humor. The dragon class clown, they're the fathers of jokes and tricks.

Now, honestly I would consider Copper the most likely to engage in cheating at cards. However I could also see them rewarding the person who figures out their cheat.