Vile damage and temporary hit points

[Keldrin]

The set up. Characters fought creatures who did vile as well as regular damage.
We had different opinions on how vile damage worked with temp. HP.
Two of us felt the vile would bypass the temp points, and I Don't.
For example my PC has 30 temp. He takes 17 regular, and 10 vile. I think the temp hp take all 27 points, leaving 3. They say the 10 vile goes straight to normal hp, leaving the PC with 13 temp. I can't anything to support their argument, so mine seems more likely.

What say you?

[Erit]

Mechanically there's no reason to. The only thing differentiating it from being stabbed in the tookus is that you can't heal it without God's blessing being actively present on the ground you're currently covering in your blood, you filthy heathen. Though using temporary hit points to escape that concern does make the issue moot, which could very well be why they're trying to rule that it bypasses temp HP.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yep, the temp HP absorbs all the damage and it cannot be healed anyway so it just disappears like normal.

[FearlessGnome]

The set up. Characters fought creatures who did vile as well as regular damage.
We had different opinions on how vile damage worked with temp. HP.
Two of us felt the vile would bypass the temp points, and I Don't.
For example my PC has 30 temp. He takes 17 regular, and 10 vile. I think the temp hp take all 27 points, leaving 3. They say the 10 vile goes straight to normal hp, leaving the PC with 13 temp. I can't anything to support their argument, so mine seems more likely.

What say you?

I would agree with you. Entirely. Vile damage is normal damage with the added stipulations that it can't be non-lethal and that it can't be healed without Consecrate or Hallow.

Temporary hit points are normal hit points except that they exist in a special pool that gets depleted before your normal hp pool starts taking damage, that it can't be recovered once lost and that it doesn't stack unless the source says otherwise.

Add the two together and the Vile damage depletes temporary hit points in the same way that any other normal damage would. Vile damage is wicked fun and unfair, but it doesn't get to ignore temporary hp.

[Yael]

Temporary HP is lost first, that's the thingy they do. Also, there should be no reason for them to be ignored, as they are HP. Sure this avoids the hazzard of vile damage, but hey, it's a spell to prevent a harmful situation, isn't that why the casters are for?

Edit: Double Ninja'd.

[Keldrin]

Thanks all.

[Khedrac]

If they and you want to make vile damage more threatening to characters who regularly use temporary hit points then there is a house rule that could be fun...
Until you receive any healing in a consecrated/hallowed area that source of temporary hit points takes a -10 penalty.

E.g. if you had cast Heart of Earth the next casting will grant 10 fewer temporary hit points than you expect; False Life will work normally however.

This was they get the expected Vile Damage result but the temporary hit points do their job in keeping you alive.

[iceman10058]

Nope, because the vile damage CAN last longer than the temp ho, so once you lose the temp hp, unless you healed the vile damage on holy ground, you still have x points of vile damage after losing the temp hp.

[Name1]

But... so can normal damage too, right? I mean, if you have 20 Temp HP, and loose 5, and then the time runs out, you still wouldn't have healed the Temp HP, and you don't take these 5 damage to your regular HP in that sceario, right?

[MHCD]

But... so can normal damage too, right? I mean, if you have 20 Temp HP, and loose 5, and then the time runs out, you still wouldn't have healed the Temp HP, and you don't take these 5 damage to your regular HP in that sceario, right?

The temporary HP from barbarian rage function as you described, and are explicitly stated to not work the way regular temporary HP do in that regard. Normal temporary HP act just like regular HP, except they are lost first and would still otherwise be temporary.

[Techwarrior]

Rage doesn't give temporary hit points. The HP granted is due to inflated Constitution during the rage.

[Segev]

A question rises from this that I find more interesting: In what order are the hp applied?

In the example, only 3 real hp (rather than temporary) are actually harmed; the rest is absorbed by the temp hp. But only some of the damage was Vile. Are all 3 hp Vile? Are 2 of them (half, rounded down)? None of them (because the temp hp "ate" all the Vile damage)?

[Name1]

A question rises from this that I find more interesting: In what order are the hp applied?

I'd say as much Vile Damage as possible would be applied to the regular HP, simply because that's the most favorable thing for the attacker.

[Erit]

I'd say as much Vile Damage as possible would be applied to the regular HP, simply because that's the most favorable thing for the attacker.

I'd say half of both, since then it's the worst outcome for attacker and defender alike. True compromise, nobody leaves happy with the result. It's better than one or another getting cheated of the benefit of their ability.

[Fouredged Sword]

As a DM I always let the player decide how to apply damage. This is a personal house rule I do to speed up play. I think the more official rule is that the defender decideds how to apply their defenses so would decide what damage is absorbed by temp HP and what is absorbed by regular hp.

Another interesting note, temp HP is only temporary protection vs non-lethal damage. You can pass out if your Temp HP dissipates while you have non-lethal damage higher than your HP.

This brings up the possibility of non-lethal vile damage as a hard to heal temp HP ignoring thing. The non-lethal damage is counted up not down so you carry the full amount until it heals. Vile damage is hard to heal.

With non-lethal vile damage and a ring of sustenance you could put someone into a coma that won't kill them and they will never wake from without outside aid.

[Erit]

This brings up the possibility of non-lethal vile damage as a hard to heal temp HP ignoring thing.

With non-lethal vile damage and a ring of sustenance you could put someone into a coma that won't kill them and they will never wake from without outside aid.

Vile damage can't be nonlethal, so that puts the kaibosh on that idea. If you want to put someone into a coma they can't wake up from without assistance, Int/Wis/Cha drain of sufficient proportions. That doesn't heal without magic so far as I know.

[Segev]

Vile damage can't be nonlethal

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have not seen this rule, so can you please provide a citation or at least tell me where to find it?

[Erit]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have not seen this rule, so can you please provide a citation or at least tell me where to find it?

Y'know, now that I go looking I can't find it either. Guess I'm misremembering.

[MHCD]

Rage doesn't give temporary hit points. The HP granted is due to inflated Constitution during the rage.

I apparently forgot to transcribe my air quotes. The barbarian's "temporary hit points..."*

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wait, where does it say vile cannot be non-lethal? This actually came up last game and I thought it could not but did not have a source handy.

Edit: More on topic: vile damage is fundamentally just damage, so things that block damage (DR and Temp hp for example) block it just fine and thus don't trip the "no heal" clause.

Double Edit: Fearless Gnome has proven me wrong on some accounts.

[FearlessGnome]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have not seen this rule, so can you please provide a citation or at least tell me where to find it?

I'm sure I've seen this. I can't find it. However, in looking for it, I found the errata for the Book of Vile Darkness, which states that vile damage bypasses damage reduction. Which is completely unrelated, but it was news to me, and I found it interesting.

[Fizban]

A question rises from this that I find more interesting: In what order are the hp applied?
If an order were asked, I would always apply normal damage first and special damage later, from the wound out. Vile damage is often converted from normal damage, so you'd get your normal damage first (including sneak attack, crits, whatever), then vile, then flaming or whatever.

[Segev]

If an order were asked, I would always apply normal damage first and special damage later, from the wound out. Vile damage is often converted from normal damage, so you'd get your normal damage first (including sneak attack, crits, whatever), then vile, then flaming or whatever.

I'm not sure I'm parsing your answer correctly.

Let's say I have 8 temporary hit points, and am hit with an attack that does 10 damage, half of which is Vile. Two "real" hit points are thus dealt to me. How many of those are Vile? 0, 1, or 2?

[LTwerewolf]

I'm not sure I'm parsing your answer correctly.

Let's say I have 8 temporary hit points, and am hit with an attack that does 10 damage, half of which is Vile. Two "real" hit points are thus dealt to me. How many of those are Vile? 0, 1, or 2?

He's suggesting the 5 normal damage happens first, then the 5 vile damage, leaving you with 2 vile damage leftover.