I've seen talk of Pal 2/Sorc 18 but how does it play?

[thebiglost1]

Looking for anyone that has played or played alongside a pal2/sorc18 that can share their experiences with the build. How does it play? Actual in game strengths and weaknesses etc.

Have a new game coming up in 2 weeks and am intrigued by the build.

Thanks for your time.

[DivisibleByZero]

My favorite class combination in 5e.
You're a primary caster with metamagic, who can also heal and wade into melee when you want to, along with many other possible options if you build for it (such as stealth, party face, trapsmith, etc.... And all at once if you plan carefully).
Sorcadin is the Swiss Army Knife of 5e.
Even more so than Bard, imo, because you can deal damage before getting animate objects.

[Corran]

In short, I dont like it.
I had high hopes for this combo, but working around it made me realize that it is not optimal (imo). Not that it is bad or anything (in fact it stood its ground in a short campaign that went up to level 5). In fact, I strongly believe that for the vast majority (99.9999) of builds involving a paladin 2 dip (at least tha goes for the builds I have seen discussed and for the builds that I can think of). So yeah, I am a huge anti-paladin 2-dip guy.

Moreover, fighter 2 does the job better (again, imo, and I realize that this is controversial, and I have discussed it previously in this forum), compared with paladin 2, regarding the above build stricture (ie sorcerer 18).

Personaly, any paladin dip lower than 6, has to add sth REALLY useful that pairs tremendously well with my build's needs, in order to consider it optimal. And there mustn't be a similar in ''size'' dip that does the job better.

ps: It is a good build though if you like to smite (and most people do, I know I do...). Not optimal, but yeah, you can smite a lot! So if you dont care about playing a character that is super efficient, then by all means go for it. (It's one of these builds I dislike on paper, but they are fun to play).

[krunchyfrogg]

I like it, as you can probably smite all day with only 2 levels of paladin, and with the GFB and BB cantrips, you don't need to worry about that extra attack as much.

My issue with the build is if I'm going Paladin, I REALLY want that leve l6 ability. It's really that good.

[Fuzzy Logic]

I've never played it but it does sound intriguing. If you go favoured soul sorceror you don't even lose the second attack! I just thought of this build yesterday, glad to see the playgrounds already got it covered.

[thebiglost1]

Thanks for the replies fellas.

Right now I'm contemplating Pal11/sorc9 vs the pal2/sorc18 and I'm just trying to decide if truly full spell casting plus max meta magic options is worth spell resist [as I would go ancients] +5 to saves, immunity to fear and 1d8 extra radiant to every melee attack is worth giving up. Didn't include extra attack as I feel with the new melee cantrips it's basically a wash.

Guess it comes down to play style. I'll start as paladin regardless so hopefully I'll get a feel for the campaign and the rest of the party before I level too far.

[DivisibleByZero]

I've never played it but it does sound intriguing. If you go favoured soul sorceror you don't even lose the second attack! I just thought of this build yesterday, glad to see the playgrounds already got it covered.

FvS is good, but not because of extra attack. It's good because of the domain spells.
Dragon is even better imo, for +3ac, (brass/gold/red) for +Cha to fire spells (including gfb) and +1hp/level. More focused, better hp/ac in the thick of things.

I think the best way to build is to choose most of your spells as CC/AoE/utility (in that order).
You have good sustained single target damage with firebolt+cha or melee gfb+Cha (great burst with smites), so choose spells that disable enemies (and can be twinned) or have AoEs, and grab a few utility spells as you see fit.
Great control, good-to-great single target DPR, good buffing (bless, etc), good AoE blasting. Add in healing, scouting, socializing, trapsmithing, (all sorts of goodies can be had) and you are the whole package.

[thebiglost1]

FvS is good, but not because of extra attack. It's good because of the domain spells.
Dragon is even better imo, for +3ac, (brass/gold/red) for +Cha to fire spells (including gfb) and +1hp/level. More focused, better hp/ac in the thick of things.

I think the best way to build is to choose most of your spells as CC/AoE/utility (in that order).
You have good sustained single target damage with firebolt+cha or melee gfb+Cha (great burst with smites), so choose spells that disable enemies (and can be twinned) or have AoEs, and grab a few utility spells as you see fit.
Great control, good-to-great single target DPR, good buffing (bless, etc), good AoE blasting. Add in healing, scouting, socializing, trapsmithing, (all sorts of goodies can be had) and you are the whole package.

Nice breakdown. DM doesn't allow UA so it will probably be dragon sorc.

[Telesto]

As with all pally 2 dips, I enjoy it. But Warlock seems like it would be about the best. 12/day (2 short rests) 5th level smites. Actually 9/11/17 would be decent stopping points for warlock, as they are 2/3/4 per short rest points for 5th level slots. Which would let you multiclass into something else potentially (such as fighter). While you only get 4-6 5th level smites/day (compared to 7 5+ smites daily with 18 sorc), you also get 5 ability score adjustments and an extra attack

[Gastronomie]

Thanks for the replies fellas.

Right now I'm contemplating Pal11/sorc9 vs the pal2/sorc18 and I'm just trying to decide if truly full spell casting plus max meta magic options is worth spell resist [as I would go ancients] +5 to saves, immunity to fear and 1d8 extra radiant to every melee attack is worth giving up. Didn't include extra attack as I feel with the new melee cantrips it's basically a wash.

Guess it comes down to play style. I'll start as paladin regardless so hopefully I'll get a feel for the campaign and the rest of the party before I level too far.Improved Divine Smite is good, but IMO not enough of a reason to go to Paladin 11. My suggested builds are 6/14, or with Ancients, 7/13.

The more sorcery points you have, the more frequently you can use Quickened or Heightened Spell. Generally it's the better option go to lots of levels in Sorcerer, leaving Paladin at 6 or 7.

If you're sure you want to go Paladin 11 and you know of all the loads of yummy stuff you're leaving behind in Sorcerer, make sure to take Aura of Protection as a level 3 Paladin Spell, and also the Extended Spell metamagic option. You get to heal 40d6, or 140 average, HP with just a level 3 slot and one sorcery point. Make the Life Clerics bow down before you.

[RulesJD]

Thanks for the replies fellas.

Right now I'm contemplating Pal11/sorc9 vs the pal2/sorc18 and I'm just trying to decide if truly full spell casting plus max meta magic options is worth spell resist [as I would go ancients] +5 to saves, immunity to fear and 1d8 extra radiant to every melee attack is worth giving up. Didn't include extra attack as I feel with the new melee cantrips it's basically a wash.

Guess it comes down to play style. I'll start as paladin regardless so hopefully I'll get a feel for the campaign and the rest of the party before I level too far.

Paladorcs setup as 2/sorc 18 aren't bad, they are just terribly one dimensional in large part due to the poor spell choice list. Don't get me wrong, that do very good, but if you're looking for a mostly spell caster with some melee hardiness you are significantly better off going Fighter 2/Abjuration Wiz+. The Abjuration shield actually provides more health than an even level Fighter, Action Surge is (arguably) better than 1 smite attack, and the Wizard spell list is significantly more useful (*cough* Find Familiar for Advantage on your 1 attack*cough*).

From my play experience (did a Paladin 2/Sorc 6 before I got bored with it being so 1 dimensional), the Paladorc setup of Paladin 6 (Vengeance) or Paladin 7 (Ancients)/Draconic Sorc+ is significantly more fun. The addition of Extra Attack makes all the difference in the world for gameplay fun and the +cha to saves Aura makes the rest of the party happy to deal with the stupid amount of damage you put out.

The obvious downside is that it does delay spell progression to Haste by 3 levels, which is a lot. But on your Paladin 2/Sorc 18 build, the addition of Haste only makes you slightly better than a Paladin with Extra Attack + Shield of Faith. And without the +cha to saves, you'll be failing concentration Saves pretty often.

In short, Paladorcs are awesome and extremely fun to play. They have tremendous versatility for pretty much everything except Exploration (until you add 3 levels of Warlock and pickup Find Familiar), are extremely helpful to a Party due to healing + buff spells + Cha Aura, and obviously are one of the strongest classes in combat. However, only doing 2 Paladin is a bit useless compared to the alternatives (Fighter 2).

*edit*

I should note that one of my favorite characters of mine to play is my level 17 Paladorclock that is Vengeance Paladin 6/Fiend (Tome) Warlock 3/Draconic Sorcerer 8. He was a blast to play the entire way up to 17 and remains so at higher levels.

[WereRabbitz]

Thanks for the replies fellas.

Right now I'm contemplating Pal11/sorc9 vs the pal2/sorc18 and I'm just trying to decide if truly full spell casting plus max meta magic options is worth spell resist [as I would go ancients] +5 to saves, immunity to fear and 1d8 extra radiant to every melee attack is worth giving up. Didn't include extra attack as I feel with the new melee cantrips it's basically a wash.

Guess it comes down to play style. I'll start as paladin regardless so hopefully I'll get a feel for the campaign and the rest of the party before I level too far.

Does your party need Melee or Caster more?

Melee:

Ancient Paladin 12 / Dragon Sorc 8
Full ASI Points (5) + Resistance to Magic, Immune to Fear, Lots of smite chances and a nice array of buffs and heals to use with your metamagic

Throw on Shield & Shield Mastery for tougher AC and Saves for a Tank Approach
or
PAM for Greater damage and more smite chances for a Strong Martial DPS

Extra Attack + Bonus Attack + Haste Attack gives you 3-4 attacks per round that you can smite with.


SpellCaster:
Paladin 6/7 (Dev/Veng or Ancients) / Sorcer 14/13
PAM Feat

This allows you to hold your halberd while you cast or if someone is crazy enough to get close you can smack them with some high level smites to teach them a lessen. otherwise your a SpellCaster Level 17 which opens up Level 9 Slots, but not spells.

Level 1-3 are for buffs
Level 4 for smites
Level 5-9 for big Damage Spells

[Specter]

Like a Sorcerer, except you wear heavy armor, cast Bless/Shield of Faith, smite, attack with weapons and occasionally heal.

[ES Curse]

You also get access to stronger smites earlier, and can cannibalize lower spell slots into 5th level ones with Metamagic, maximizing your smite output.

As for origin choice, I'm really feeling Storm Sorcerer, at least for a "Thor" build. Limited flight helps compensate for the loss in mobility due to heavy armor, and the Storm Sorc 6 feature should work with the Paladin's Thunderous Smite. Storm's Fury is also really good on this build, as you can punish what few melee attacks manage to bypass your plate armor.

Changing the size of your paladin dip has a big influence on where you end up at higher levels. Going Paladin 6 for the Extra attack, aura, and better hit die sounds tempting, but you sacrifice your sorc 18 feature, rapid spell slot gain, and dedicated 8/9th level spells. Pal 6 builds might be better for mid-level adventures, but Pal 2 gets really strong at low levels and another boost at high levels.

[thebiglost1]

All good points, thanks again fellas.

I won't know what the rest of the party will be except for a open hand monk because we have one PC that only plays open hand monks and not really sure which direction the DM will take this campaign.

[krunchyfrogg]

I have yet to see a good powergaming build involving paladin and sorcerer that doesn't involve 6 (or 7, for OotA) Paladin levels and mostly Sorcerer levels. Some alternates include 2 or 3 fighter levels.

[Corran]

I have yet to see a good powergaming build involving paladin and sorcerer that doesn't involve 6 (or 7, for OotA) Paladin levels and mostly Sorcerer levels. Some alternates include 2 or 3 fighter levels.
Paladin 9 is another potentially good cut-off point.
I haven't thought this through, but I think a paladin (crown) 9/ sorcerer 11 would be a good (S&B, tanky) build.

[krunchyfrogg]

Paladin 9 is another potentially good cut-off point.
I haven't thought this through, but I think a paladin (crown) 9/ sorcerer 11 would be a good (S&B, tanky) build.

Whats so good about 9?

[Gastronomie]

Whats so good about 9?Level 3 Paladin spells. Also:


[If going over Paladin 9] make sure to take Aura of Protection as a level 3 Paladin Spell, and also the Extended Spell metamagic option. You get to heal 40d6, or 140 average, HP with just a level 3 slot and one sorcery point. Make the Life Clerics bow down before you.

[Corran]

Whats so good about 9?
The 3rd level spells. If the party cannot cover for some of those spells, then gaining them from paladin can facilitate your selection for sorcerer known spells. As an example, if no one at the party has dispel magic, it is an option worth considering going up to paladin 9, so that you dont have to take dispel magic as one of your limited sorcerer known spells. Or alternatively, if there is no cleric, revifify will be a nice addition. Etc etc...
And ofc if you are lacking healing, there is always aura of vitality (which you can combine with extend metamagic for very good out of combat healing). Ofc my point is to look at the rest of the party, and then consider how many of those 3rd level paladin spells are not covered sufficiently by your allies. So in that sense, paladin 9 can be very rewarding.
Crown also gets spirit guardians at 9. S&B paladin/sorcerers make excelent tanks, but they are a bit lackluster when keeping the enemies on them is concerned. Crown's strength fix that weakness. And since you will be a good tank with the enemies restricted close to you, having spirit guardians as a concentration option is very nice, especially against hordes. Then again, even in the case of a crown paladin/sorcerer, I think I would base my decision to go or not up to level 9 on what I said in the previous paragraph regarding paladin spells. Though in the case of crown, there is added pressure from spirit guardians, so level 9 might be easier to justify.
ps: Again, I haven't thought this in a lot of detail, just some recent surface thoughts.



[If going over Paladin 9] make sure to take Aura of Protection as a level 3 Paladin Spell, and also the Extended Spell metamagic option. You get to heal 40d6, or 140 average, HP with just a level 3 slot and one sorcery point. Make the Life Clerics bow down before you.
Typo: aura of vitality, not aura of protection.:smallsmile:

[ES Curse]

If you're giving up your Sorcerer 14 feature, you need a VERY good use of Metamagic to be worthwhile. Otherwise, you might as well take Warlock and get all your benefits early.

[PeteNutButter]

I did the paladin 2/sorc x and it basically broke my table. The higher level paladin builds are better for team and defensive play but the 2/x is IMO the best for solo offensive power.

You get to smite harder earlier than anything and it is just crazy outside the bounded expectations of the game.

You don't need extra attack because you can twin BB (if targets available) and quicken BB/GFB, and cast haste all by level 7. Each of those can smite.

[Klorox]

I did the paladin 2/sorc x and it basically broke my table. The higher level paladin builds are better for team and defensive play but the 2/x is IMO the best for solo offensive power.

You get to smite harder earlier than anything and it is just crazy outside the bounded expectations of the game.

You don't need extra attack because you can twin BB (if targets available) and quicken BB/GFB, and cast haste all by level 7. Each of those can smite.
Wow. I never would've thought of twinning/quickening those cantrips

[DivisibleByZero]

Wow. I never would've thought of twinning/quickening those cantrips

Oh yeah.
That's my number one use of SP.
Quickened GFB. If I have two targets and I want to really lay the smack down I'll Twin a BB first.
No actual slots used yet.

Like I said above a couple times, between firebolt+Cha and GFB+Cha and smites, you have plenty of single target DPR. So choose spells that are CC or AoE or both, with a few utilities tossed in, and you really are the whole package.

I know that Str builds are the most commonly praised, but my Dex Sorcadin is a beast who can literally do just about anything I want or need him to do.

[Klorox]

Oh yeah.
That's my number one use of SP.
Quickened GFB. If I have two targets and I want to really lay the smack down I'll Twin a BB first.
No actual slots used yet.

Like I said above a couple times, between firebolt+Cha and GFB+Cha and smites, you have plenty of single target DPR. So choose spells that are CC or AoE or both, with a few utilities tossed in, and you really are the whole package.

I know that Str builds are the most commonly praised, but my Dex Sorcadin is a beast who can literally do just about anything I want or need him to do.
I can imagine! I guess the issue with a DEX paladin/sorcerer is that you need warcaster along the way, as well as being even more MAD to cover the multiclass.

[DivisibleByZero]

I can imagine! I guess the issue with a DEX paladin/sorcerer is that you need warcaster along the way, as well as being even more MAD to cover the multiclass.

If you're playing AL rules, then yes, it's a little mad. But with half elf, you have 13str, 16dex, 14con, 8int, 9wis, 16cha to start, so it's totally workable.
If you aren't playing AL rules, then it's easy to talk your DM into lifting the Str req and changing it to Str or Dex once he sees the tweet stating those reqs are for the iconic/ideal archetype for the classes, and that a DM can and should change them if he wants to.
In that case, if he lifts it, you can have a 10str and a 12wis.

Warcaster is definitely useful, and highly recommended, but not required.

[WereRabbitz]

I did the paladin 2/sorc x and it basically broke my table. The higher level paladin builds are better for team and defensive play but the 2/x is IMO the best for solo offensive power.

You get to smite harder earlier than anything and it is just crazy outside the bounded expectations of the game.

You don't need extra attack because you can twin BB (if targets available) and quicken BB/GFB, and cast haste all by level 7. Each of those can smite.


The Thing I don't like about the Paladin 2/x combo is your missing out on a lot of the benefits of Paladins has to a group and pushing out damage requires burning slots.

Twinning or Smiting requires using up spells lots or sorc points either one.

The Paladin 12/8 build gives you 4 attacks with PAM/TWF & Haste which allows you to have 4 attacks with 1d8 IDS Damage on each attacks.
This not only gives you Aura's + Healing + Nice Per round combat without wasting spell slots it also allows you to have a bigger spike in a single round with the option to drop in up to 4 smites in a round if you feel the need or sub 2 levels of Sorc for 2 levels of fighter to pick up Action Surge and a second Fighting Style for the chance to drop in 6 attacks +6 smites in a single round for the chance to max out over 400 damage.

I feel the extra Paladin levels makes your character more group oriented instead of being like in a MMO where your the "DPS" and that's all you do.

[PeteNutButter]

The Thing I don't like about the Paladin 2/x combo is your missing out on a lot of the benefits of Paladins has...

The endless when to leave paladin debate is sparked by the fact that paladin 20 is just fantastic, likely one of if not the best base class. But is it better than ninth level spells?

There are basically 3 ways to look at a build: at level 20 (which is dumb because builds rarely reach there, and if they do they don't tend not to see much play); at level x (pick a level, say 10, and compare, same as above but more likely to see significant play); or level by level as it is actually played (tedious to breakdown but realistic)

So level 20. I'd say ninth level spells have it.

Level 10.

A paladin 6/sorc 4 can't cast any third level spells. Can only hold enough sorcery points to quicken two things before having to spend a bonus action to convert more slots. Has extra attack, has aura of protection, and some tasty oath features.

Paladin 10(going for 12/8) has 3rd level paladin spells, is one level away from IDS. Really solid character here that can smite a decent bit but lacks the quicken spell versatility.

Pal 2/sorc 8. Can sort of mirror extra attack with twin BB on different targets, and quicken GFB for solid str+cha damage, can smite a lot more, can quicken a lot more, can cast shield a lot more. Has 5th level slots and 4th level spells. Missing extra attack (but not suffering so much from it) and missing more importantly aura of protection.

Things are close at level 10, largely a matter of opinion.

Level by level? Well there really aren't too many "dead levels" in paladin, so it's tough to see a clean breakaway point, BUT once you leave it is even harder to go back.

I'm not going to break all the builds down since this post is already way too long, but I will say when I was paladin 2/sorc x I fully expected to return to paladin and get extra attack and aura of protection, but every level up was "well I can get my oath or I can get a higher level spell known or a higher level spell slot, and another juicy sorcery point..." It was no contest on the opportunity cost. Oath was weaker than 3rd level spells, and of course weaker than 4th etc.

He sits now as paladin 2/sorcerer 12 in semi-retirement. He was good for quickening a hold monster then following it up with a automatic crit smite GFB for 16d8+13. Or casting some other ridiculous spell like disintegrate and a haste attack, and a GFB.

[DivisibleByZero]

The Thing I don't like about the Paladin 2/x combo is your missing out on a lot of the benefits of Paladins has to a group and pushing out damage requires burning slots.

Twinning or Smiting requires using up spells lots or sorc points either one.


Pushing out damage doesn't take anything but a cantrip. Remember you are still a sorcerer with lots of cantrips that get either your Cha to the damage, or a melee stat, or both.
You can do that all day for free, just like any other caster.
If you want more damage than that, you need to remember that you're a caster, and that all casters need to expend resources to do better (or in many cases, to do equal).

I play very conservatively with my slots, usually concentrating on a buff or CC in combat, and relying on cantrips for damage.
At level 11 (2/9) I do 3d10+4 at range (avg 19.5 firebolt) or 1d6+2d8+8 and 2d8+8 to a second target in melee (avg 20.5 and 17, GFB with scimitar). Perfectly respectable, and I'm buffing or CCing at the same time, possibly Twinned for it.
I also have ray of frost and booming blade for when fire isn't going to work. A tiny bit less damage, but with riders.

When I want to bring out the big guns I'll start burning slots or sorc points, but in general I don't feel the need at all. When I do, I outshine the rest of the party.

And once again, that's while also being an excellent controller, a good buffer, a decent scout, a decent healer, a decent party face, an OK trapsmith, etc.
A Twinned and a Quickened cure wounds makes for absolutely amazing healing, but you don't want to be spending your slots and SP on that unless you absolutely have to, so I only consider him a decent healer overall.

[WereRabbitz]

Pushing out damage doesn't take anything but a cantrip. Remember you are still a sorcerer with lots of cantrips that get either your Cha to the damage, or a melee stat, or both.
You can do that all day for free, just like any other caster.
If you want more damage than that, you need to remember that you're a caster, and that all casters need to expend resources to do better (or in many cases, to do equal).
...

Cantrip's are free yea, I was referring to the mention if twinning Cantrips for more damage which takes sorcery points and then smiting those attacks which takes spell slots.

BB and GFB both scale, but don't compare to a Hasted PAM/TWF with extra attack and IDS.

I think the difference here is I am use to long runs without a short or long rest so I think in the more conservative mind frame and I see the 4x Attacks as a good build as it's consistent low resource damage with the option of pushing out up to 4 smites in a single round if needed to spike.

I do think it really depends on the group your playing with as The Paladin Aura's at 6/7/9 are no joke pretty darn awesome.

I prefer Ancients myself because High AC Plate + Resist to magic damage + Bonus to Saves (not very common) & can't be frightened solves a LOT of problems for not only you, but all your teammates and these features shouldn't be underrated as well as pally 2/x you will lose a ASI which you will feel unless your doing custom 4d6 roles which tend to be more favorable then point buy in.


With the 2/18 you get what cure wounds and a 10pt lay of hands? Not sure I could consider that a decent healer though.

[DivisibleByZero]

You're falling prey to the same mindset that others do, taking the most versatile build you can make and shoehorning it into an EK.
You aren't an EK. You aren't even a proper gish. You're a sorcerer who can do a little bit of everything, including acting like a gish once in a while.

Don't try to be something that you aren't. Play to your strengths instead of pretending that you're an EK.
The earlier comment by someone that this was one dimensional only happened because he fell victim to the same mindset.
This build is anything BUT one dimensional.

[Theodoxus]

I still prefer Pal 2/Lock 18 (Though really 8/12) for the ASIs

My Fey Knight (still hasn't seen light of day...) is a Half-elf with a long bow he "shoots" his EBs from. Go Blade for a true representation of a switchhitter the likes of which haven't been seen since the PF Ranger.

Ancients and Fey mesh nicely for the "OMG, Paladins and Warlock philosophies are incompatible wut wut" types.

Start Pally for the armor, scoot into Lock for 4 levels for EB, Invos and ASI. Back to Pally for additional benie's to finish out at 8 for saves, resistance to magic and the ASI. Then finish out Lock, slowly gaining more power from your Fey patron.

Fun part is right from 2nd level, you have a "force bow" that makes other bow users jealous. You can grab Invocations and feats that put your shots on par with the Ranger, and unlike the Ranger, you have a great switchhitter, picking up your greatsword and going BB or GFB, all while wearing plate (so you can neglect that pesky Dex if you want to - and since you're starting ranged anyway, going first matters less).

All around, one of my favorite casters I've haven't had the pleasure in trying yet.

[Citan]

Looking for anyone that has played or played alongside a pal2/sorc18 that can share their experiences with the build. How does it play? Actual in game strengths and weaknesses etc.

Have a new game coming up in 2 weeks and am intrigued by the build.

Thanks for your time.
Well, it certainly works well, because it already brings many things: nearly all Paladin 1st level spells can be enhanced with a Metamagic, and you get smiting. Also, benefit of Sorcerer over other casters is spell slots conversion, and Sorcery points, meaning extra spells slots.

It works even greater if you can get weapon cantrips because you will less feel the absence of Extra Attack.

With that said, I would never stop at Paladin 2 because for a gish build, I think that Paladin offers too many good things up to lvl 6 (Devotion/Crown/Vengeance) or 7 (Vengeance/Oathbreaker): either the Channel Divinity, or spells, or Aura will justify pushing to lvl 6, and you also get Extra Attack (more smiting for nova) as well as 2nd level spells (again, nearly all can be enhanced with Metamagic).

Or, said otherwise, I feel that the true reason of ever dipping Paladin 2 is the Divine Smite (spells can be obtained otherwise, as well as Fighting Style), meaning a heavily melee-geared build. And for a melee build mixing just Pal with a caster, I see very little reason to stop before Paladin 6 whatever happens.
Unless in those two cases.
1. DM agrees to use the spell points variant instead of spell slots, meaning that you can REALLY smite all day, keeping only 1st level spells such as Bless or Shield of Faith active, with an occasional Haste/Elemental Weapon/whatever), because you have no "waste" of slots as you would have otherwise (since smite is capped to 4th level slot). In this case, the most high a spellcaster you are the better. Although Extra Attack would seem mandatory for this case, meaning you are shoehorned into Favored Soul... Or go Paladin 5 (6).

2. Specific, heavy multiclass gish where the martial aspect is brought by another class such as Barbarian (niche, Sorcerer only here to self-buff prerage and fuel smites) or Fighter (the usual alternative).

Although, I admit, I never envisioned the Paladin / Sorcerer "starting from the spellcaster point of view" (viewing Paladin as just a dip), so I'm biaised. ;)


Paladin 9 is another potentially good cut-off point.
I haven't thought this through, but I think a paladin (crown) 9/ sorcerer 11 would be a good (S&B, tanky) build.
Yes it is. :) Although my preferred build around this kind of cut is Devotion Paladin 9 / Life Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 10. The MADness is somewhat mitigated by Sacred Weapon, and you get important healing spells. You are as potent as a true Cleric for healing thanks to Metamagic and Life domain bonus. On Sorcerer side, you're high enough to get another Metamagic. :)
So, great if you want to push the healing aspect of your versatility.

[SillyPopeNachos]

It plays ok, but my preference is for bard to take 2 levels of paladin, and the sorcerer to take either 6 levels of non-ancients paladin or 7 levels of ancients.

[WereRabbitz]

You're falling prey to the same mindset that others do, taking the most versatile build you can make and shoehorning it into an EK.
You aren't an EK. You aren't even a proper gish. You're a sorcerer who can do a little bit of everything, including acting like a gish once in a while.

Don't try to be something that you aren't. Play to your strengths instead of pretending that you're an EK.
The earlier comment by someone that this was one dimensional only happened because he fell victim to the same mindset.
This build is anything BUT one dimensional.

That's not the case at all the only points I really wanted to make were the following:

1. More levels into Paladin will give you a much better array of healing spells to use with your Metamagic
2. Buffs & Debuffs are more precious then ever with the Concentration requirement, so Save/Fear/Magic Aura's have a high benefit not only to you, but your tream and are always on.
3. Having more points for Lay on Hands gives more healing & Poison/disease removal without expanding a spell slot.

All these are very unique features of paladins that are highly effective in a group.


Not saying the 2/x isn't effective, just saying more levels of paladin on board would give you and your group some nice benefits, but in reality the effectiveness of either build come down to your team make up and what they need.