How about an Arcane Trickster with Booming Blade?

[krunchyfrogg]

Booming Blade the opponent and use that disengage bonus action to get out of melee.

You basically lock down one enemy where he chooses to take damage or chooses to sit there and do nothing.

[Corran]

Yeah, BB is very good on rogues. The major factor to look at when employing this, will be if you are doing this against an enemy who is adjacent to one of your allies or not.

The trade-off for the increased damage of the BB is that it does not allow for another attack (so for rogues that means no TWF), and that is important, since an improved (due to more attacks) chance for landing sneak attack damage affects seriously your dpr. Ofc, since AT, you can make up for this by having a familiar helping you. Make it an owl familiar, and you have a familiar that helps and runs, and a guy who hits and runs. I am not sure which one of them is more annoying, but my money is on the familiar (at least the DM can kill it more easily:smalltongue:).

[8wGremlin]

Swashbuckler would be useful, gets Advantage when on their own don't they?

[Grod_The_Giant]

The melee cantrips are great for anyone who can only make a single attack a round, Rogues very much included.


Swashbuckler would be useful, gets Advantage when on their own don't they?
No, they merely get the ability to Sneak Attack on their own. Still useful though, as they can avoid AoOs without the bonus action.

[RulesJD]

Booming Blade the opponent and use that disengage bonus action to get out of melee.

You basically lock down one enemy where he chooses to take damage or chooses to sit there and do nothing.

Generally speaking it's better on Swashbuckler because then you can isolate enemies that still need to move into combat but you still get your Sneak Attack.

But yes, it's basically mandatory now for any Rogue to pick it up.

[Specter]

It's great. Attack, disengage, run, repeat. DM counters to this would be Counterspell and enemies with huge AC. But it's better than a simple attack, and in some cases even better than TWF.

[Finieous]

Yeah, BB is very good on rogues. The major factor to look at when employing this, will be if you are doing this against an enemy who is adjacent to one of your allies or not.

The trade-off for the increased damage of the BB is that it does not allow for another attack (so for rogues that means no TWF), and that is important, since an improved (due to more attacks) chance for landing sneak attack damage affects seriously your dpr. Ofc, since AT, you can make up for this by having a familiar helping you. Make it an owl familiar, and you have a familiar that helps and runs, and a guy who hits and runs. I am not sure which one of them is more annoying, but my money is on the familiar (at least the DM can kill it more easily:smalltongue:).

I played this character from 1-4 in AL events at a con over the weekend. First action of the first encounter, goblin shoots my owl. I'm thinking, "Oh, this was a big mistake. The AL DMs are going to do everything they can to kill poor Hooter."

That was the only time he died over the course of the weekend. The damage output (as long as you keep the owl up) and survivability are pretty hard to beat. I made it through the Open event without even going unconscious once.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I'm currently playing a High Elf Swashbuckler with Booming Blade in CoS. It's pretty good, even though I often don't actually get the movement damage off (combination of often fighting in tight corners and a melee heavy party) but even just the extra damage on hit is a fairly substantial boost.

[BW022]

I'm currently playing a High Elf Swashbuckler with Booming Blade in CoS. It's pretty good, even though I often don't actually get the movement damage off (combination of often fighting in tight corners and a melee heavy party) but even just the extra damage on hit is a fairly substantial boost.

I will second this with any type of movement-based tactics -- mounted archery, TFW thrown weapons, polearms with polearm master, etc. In most cases are fighting in buildings, dungeons, hallways, or relatively small areas. You are also typically with a party. Since you aren't a tank... someone else typically is.

If they are standing next to a tank-type PC... they aren't going to move away since it draws an opportunity attack anyway. If they are willing to pull away and take a 1d8+3 hit from a front-line PCs, chances are they don't care about a 1d8 damage from moving anyway. In most cases, your friend getting a free hit on them is enough to keep them from moving -- if they even can reach you or someone else. If there is no tank... then 1d8 at level 3 isn't much of a lock-down. They'll typically just take the damage and move to a squishy target and then they don't need to move from there -- because your squishy wizard don't want to draw attacks leaving either.

In a solo or small party without a tank, it might be an ok backup plan, but personally you'll need to summon a blocker, cast a good crowd control spell, and/or you'll need to stand there and work like an off-tank.

[Ruslan]

It's good, but in practice, not as great as it sounds. To get Sneak Attack, you have to have another ally adjacent to the enemy. And if there's another ally, the enemy has zero incentive to move and take the damage - he can just engage the other ally.


Swashbuckler would be useful, gets Advantage when on their own don't they?That's a good idea, but if you're a Swashbuckler, you're not an Arcane Trickster. </CaptainObvious> Which means there's a feat/ASI cost to getting that Booming Blade, and you won't see it until level 4 anyway.

[RulesJD]

It's good, but in practice, not as great as it sounds. To get Sneak Attack, you have to have another ally adjacent to the enemy. And if there's another ally, the enemy has zero incentive to move and take the damage - he can just engage the other ally.

That's a good idea, but if you're a Swashbuckler, you're not an Arcane Trickster. </CaptainObvious> Which means there's a feat/ASI cost to getting that Booming Blade, and you won't see it until level 4 anyway.

False. Half-Elf Variant (which incidentally is the best race for Swashbuckler minus Human Variant (which is always best for everything)).

[krunchyfrogg]

Generally speaking it's better on Swashbuckler because then you can isolate enemies that still need to move into combat but you still get your Sneak Attack.

But yes, it's basically mandatory now for any Rogue to pick it up.

But you need to drop a feat on a Swashbuckler to cast it, or be either a High Elf or variant Half Elf.

Arcane Tricksters get it at level 3.

[krunchyfrogg]

False. Half-Elf Variant (which incidentally is the best race for Swashbuckler minus Human Variant (which is always best for everything)).

Interesting: If you were to be a variant Human Swashbuckler with Arcance Initiate for Boobing Blade, what other cantrip and spell would be a good choice? I can see Mage Hand, but maybe thats because I've played a Arcane Trickster before and loved it, maybe Minor Illusion?

and maybe Shield or Feather Fall for your level 1 spell? Feather Fall would hardly get used, but damn would it be nice if you ever needed it.

[Corran]

Interesting: If you were to be a variant Human Swashbuckler with Arcance Initiate for Boobing Blade, what other cantrip and spell would be a good choice? I can see Mage Hand, but maybe thats because I've played a Arcane Trickster before and loved it, maybe Minor Illusion?

and maybe Shield or Feather Fall for your level 1 spell? Feather Fall would hardly get used, but damn would it be nice if you ever needed it.
I would say find familiar for the 1st level spell choice. Rogues ought to have a way to get advantage. For two reasons.
If you cannot ensure more than one attack (like for example via twf), advantage is important to keep your dpr high. And a swashbuckler who is using BB, means that he is attacking only once this round. He needs advantage to increase dpr.
Secondly, rogues need a way to get advantage, for the simple reason that if something imposes disadvanatge on them, they become useless (as they cant sneak attack). In the case of a melee BB-using swashbuckler, I cannot think of many ways other than familiar through magic initiate to achieve that (but perhaps I am lacking imagination).
So yeah, from 1st level spell, I would take familiar.

For the other cantrip, probably a utility one. Mage hand, minor illusion, prestidigitation, even friends (pairs nicely with a good persuasion from swashbuckler), all these seem good to me.

[clem]

Interesting: If you were to be a variant Human Swashbuckler with Arcance Initiate for Boobing Blade, what other cantrip and spell would be a good choice?

Can't say that I've heard of that cantrip -- is it from one of those 3.5e books for mature audiences. :smallwink:

[RulesJD]

I would say find familiar for the 1st level spell choice. Rogues ought to have a way to get advantage. For two reasons.
*snip*
So yeah, from 1st level spell, I would take familiar.

For the other cantrip, probably a utility one. Mage hand, minor illusion, prestidigitation, even friends (pairs nicely with a good persuasion from swashbuckler), all these seem good to me.

Boobing Blade, love it.

Second, basically what Corran said. Find Familiar because it's pretty much the most useful 1st level spell there is when you can only cast it once per day.

For second cantrip, 110% Minor Illusion. Use it to imitate voices, whisper messages to your party make impromptu concealment, pretty much everything you want to do with a utility cantrip.

[Dalebert]

For second cantrip, 110% Minor Illusion. Use it to imitate voices, whisper messages to your party make impromptu concealment, pretty much everything you want to do with a utility cantrip.

Create a distracting sound 30 feet away when you're trying to stealth. If done well and with a little thought to inevitability, reasonable DMs will grant you advantage, or else apply disadvantage to enemy perceptions from being distracted.

[Corran]

Create a distracting sound 30 feet away when you're trying to stealth. If done well and with a little thought to inevitability, reasonable DMs will grant you advantage, or else apply disadvantage to enemy perceptions from being distracted.
I totally buy the disadvantage on enemies' perception in that case. If the DM is not doing it like that (or alternatively granting you advantage on the stealth check), then you would be practicaly be forcing active perception from the enemies, instead going against their passive, so that would be a bit tricky without gaining the aforementioned benefit.


Here is a question. Which is better? Being a halfelf variant (for BB) swashbuckler, or being a normal halfelf (or variant human) swashbuckler who takes the magic initiate feat? Now I know it might be a bit difficult to establish which of the above options is strictly the best, but what would you do if you had the choice?

[RulesJD]

*snip*

Here is a question. Which is better? Being a halfelf variant (for BB) swashbuckler, or being a normal halfelf (or variant human) swashbuckler who takes the magic initiate feat? Now I know it might be a bit difficult to establish which of the above options is strictly the best, but what would you do if you had the choice?

Depends on what you want out of the character. Half-elf variant gets max dex before the normal Half-elf, but loses out on Find Familiar,Minor Illusion, and some skills. However, the Variant also gets to use BB before level 4, which can be nice at lower levels where the extra d8 can mean the difference between a targeting dying or not. Human Variant is obviously the best of both worlds and why I try to avoid those builds.

[SillyPopeNachos]

This gets even better if the AT takes 2 levels of Paladin. You can dump intelligence, grab all the rituals, and stack smite with sneak attack by level 3. Given how many ABIs the rogue gets, you're still getting the same as most single-classed characters.

[Corran]

Depends on what you want out of the character. Half-elf variant gets max dex before the normal Half-elf, but loses out on Find Familiar,Minor Illusion, and some skills. However, the Variant also gets to use BB before level 4, which can be nice at lower levels where the extra d8 can mean the difference between a targeting dying or not.
I am trying to narrow down a bit the above comparison, and what I end up with is that it heavily depends on what use you can make of the familiar. Meaning how reliably you can get advantage, meaning how often the DM kills it. Makes sense?


Human Variant is obviously the best of both worlds and why I try to avoid those builds.
Yeah, human variant. I am not sure if I love to hate, or if I hate to love this race...
However, rogue is the one class where I think it is best to avoid humans, for the lack of darkvision, as it can hurt with the scouting sometimes. That said, if vuman swashbuckler with the magic initiate feat, maybe you could look at dancing lights for your second cantrip (so dancing lights, BB, familiar), as dancing lights can sometimes help with the scouting if you are lacking darkvision.

[Citan]

Interesting: If you were to be a variant Human Swashbuckler with Arcance Initiate for Boobing Blade, what other cantrip and spell would be a good choice? I can see Mage Hand, but maybe thats because I've played a Arcane Trickster before and loved it, maybe Minor Illusion?

and maybe Shield or Feather Fall for your level 1 spell? Feather Fall would hardly get used, but damn would it be nice if you ever needed it.
I guess it's a strange magic coming from another universe...
"Death by Snu-Snuuuuuu" XD

[krunchyfrogg]

Lol, fun with typos!