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FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-06, 07:49 PM
The avenger is back (again) and is almost complete (finally) just a feature or two more and then some polishing.

Link (Homebrewery): http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SJG_0pIK

My main concern right now is the wording of a lot of the abilities, do they make sense? Also does the class feel too much like the Paladin?

Change Log:


Wrath Immemorial changed to once per long rest.

Kryx
2016-09-07, 03:30 AM
As a 4e Avenger lover imo the Oath of Vengeance Paladin fits the bill nearly perfectly. Replace armor with Armor of Faith and you're there. Creating a whole new class which is nearly the same seems a bit too much imo.

Potentially swap out some other features as desired.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-07, 11:14 AM
As a 4e Avenger lover imo the Oath of Vengeance Paladin fits the bill nearly perfectly. Replace armor with Armor of Faith and you're there. Creating a whole new class which is nearly the same seems a bit too much imo.

Potentially swap out some other features as desired.

When 5e came out, I loved playing the OoV paladin too. But as I played I slowly realized that although it matched "flavor wise" it wasn't like the avenger at all mechanically. The OoV paladin was too goody-two-shoes, with auras and heals, and he only got to use his oath of enmity once per short rest, even at 20th level.

The OoV paladin is a good sub-class, a fun way to play a chaotic paladin, but for me it just doesn't cut it as a real avenger.

clash
2016-09-07, 03:41 PM
This actually seems pretty similar to a monk to me. They get wisdom to ac, immunity to different conditions, extra attack. I would take the core abilities here and put them on a new monk subclass personally. Something like:

3 Oath of enmity: By spending 3 ki as a bonus action you gain advantage on all melee attack rolls made against a creature with 60ft for 1 min.
6: Angelic fortitude: You gain an extra 3hp per monk level
11: Ghost of Vengeance: Unaffected by difficult terrain
17: Wrath Immemorial: When you use your Oath of Enmity ability you may target any number of creatures within range. Once you use this ability you cant use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-07, 06:23 PM
This actually seems pretty similar to a monk to me. They get wisdom to ac, immunity to different conditions, extra attack. I would take the core abilities here and put them on a new monk subclass personally.

Yeah I can see why you would think that, but I don't believe it would function as I would want it to. The avenger is known for no armor, big-weapon, smite-casting combat. The monk path would work to cover some of these features and to fulfill the necessary flavor, but it wouldn't be able to do it all.

The subclass idea aside, how does the class look by itself? Too strong? too weak? too weird?

clash
2016-09-08, 08:52 AM
Yeah I can see why you would think that, but I don't believe it would function as I would want it to. The avenger is known for no armor, big-weapon, smite-casting combat. The monk path would work to cover some of these features and to fulfill the necessary flavor, but it wouldn't be able to do it all.

The subclass idea aside, how does the class look by itself? Too strong? too weak? too weird?

I would have to run the numbers to see how dps compares but at a first look Oath of enmity is too strong. At 6 times per short rest and working on all creatures with no range by level 20, you are just getting advantage against every enemy on every attack so it is more of a passive ability than a resource at that point. I suggest making it only recharge on a long rest if you want to stick with the cap of 6 uses. That allows you to use it pretty much every combat at level 20 anyways. And I would make Wrath Immemorial as usable 1/long rest and keep the normal range of 60ft.

The rest of the abilities seem alright at a first glance. What were your thoughts for the level 11 power boost? I noticed you left it blank for now.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-08, 12:02 PM
I would have to run the numbers to see how dps compares but at a first look Oath of enmity is too strong.

I happen to have a comparison chart on stand-by,

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QBH222KM3q6rIBs3JvUheCtIOasX5GFD-UMQCg3ArF4/edit?usp=drive_web

This chart compares the damage output of the avenger versus the paladin. Assuming that each use of oath of enmity lasted 3-4 rounds (a single creature hardly lasts longer than that).

It might be a little messy, if anything is confusing, please ask.


I suggest making it only recharge on a long rest if you want to stick with the cap of 6 uses. That allows you to use it pretty much every combat at level 20 anyways.

At higher levels it's supposed to be used almost every combat, similar to a barbarian's rage. Having it on a short rest recharge may make it seem really plentiful, but because it's a per-creature ability, it's used up rather quickly.

At lower levels its still a costly resource that requires the player to weigh the outcomes.


At 6 times per short rest and working on all creatures with no range by level 20, you are just getting advantage against every enemy on every attack so it is more of a passive ability than a resource at that point. I would make Wrath Immemorial as usable 1/long rest and keep the normal range of 60ft.

Okay, yeah, wrath immemorial was a little overkill. I'll change it to once per day.


The rest of the abilities seem alright at a first glance. What were your thoughts for the level 11 power boost? I noticed you left it blank for now.

I haven't a clue for the 11th level, I don't want to use the cliché "add 1d8 damage" that I see in alot of homebrew, and a third attack is too powerful for a half-caster. I've run through several other ideas but they were either too powerful or too wonky.

Any ideas?

clash
2016-09-08, 01:02 PM
Most combats last for about 4 rounds in my experience, but that might not be important for the comparisons. The real issue here is that from the time you get Oath of Enmity you can use it every combat. It only effects one enemy but it isnt really a weighing the pros and cons. Every combat pick the biggest brute and use it on him, all your teammates focus on other guys. You used the barbarian rage progression where rages are per long rest. And advantage is powerful, offensively better than the +2 rage bonus. Granted barbarian gets the dmg resistance which is powerful but I feel like you need a balance between the two. Maybe less uses every short rest. And advantage on every attack at level 20 is probably too much but it's level 20 and were going up against unlimted rages and wildshapes so maybe not.

Alright so as to your damage chart I complement you on being so thorough, but as is it shows that the avenger does 20% more dmg than the Paladin at level 20. That is too high. I have some ideas for a 11th level dmg boost but with those numbers the Avenger doesnt need it even with his lower defense. This might be solved by not having oath of enmity "always on" though. Find a way to bring the dmg down then we can give it the boost at 11 to fit 5e feel.

I dont mean to be nitpicky. Overall its a great class but I think it needs some finetuning to find the right balance.

Rerem115
2016-09-08, 02:32 PM
As you have it written, the Avenger is going to run into problems similar to those I ran into with the Rythmist. When you build your core class feature around guaranteeing a powerful, ordinarily fairly rare bonus (advantage for the Avenger, critical hits for the Rythmist), it warps the power level of the class because it tends to exaggerate any other bonuses the class gets; a normally balanced feature becomes extremely strong when you can guarantee it every round/multiply its effects.

You have arguably the strongest level 2 in the game. You get three features; spellcasting, Oath, and Blade of Zeal. Spellcasting is spellcasting, with all the goodies that entails. Even with only 6 Oath uses a day, you have more or less constant advantage (unless you're fighting hordes), so your damage output increases by an average of 25% just from the to hit bonus. Your crit chance doubles, and with Blade of Zeal, nearly triples, increasing your damage by an additional ~30%. Blade of Zeal also gives you the equivalent of +1 to hit, increasing your damage by another 5%. While I know you find advantage common, at will, constant, no drawback/opportunity cost advantage is extremely rare, and extremely strong. Even though, though perhaps becase, Oath is the core feature, it needs its use limited. Changing recharge to long rests would be a good place to start, and moving Blade of Zeal to level 11 would help spread out the damage scaling.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-08, 06:10 PM
Most combats last for about 4 rounds in my experience, but that might not be important for the comparisons. The real issue here is that from the time you get Oath of Enmity you can use it every combat. It only effects one enemy but it isnt really a weighing the pros and cons. Every combat pick the biggest brute and use it on him, all your teammates focus on other guys. You used the barbarian rage progression where rages are per long rest.

Most fights I DM go about a minute, but this isn't important, the length of a fight will vary dependent on the DM. Oath of Enmity isn't without it's cons though. The oath only works on melee, if the target runs or swaps place with another target you lose the bonus until you catch up to him. Also if you put the mark on the wrong target (say an archer who climbs a tree to get a better shot) it takes an action, a bonus action, and another use of oath to reassign.


And advantage is powerful, offensively better than the +2 rage bonus. Granted barbarian gets the dmg resistance which is powerful but I feel like you need a balance between the two. Maybe less uses every short rest. And advantage on every attack at level 20 is probably too much but it's level 20 and were going up against unlimted rages and wildshapes so maybe not.

True, but at level 2 the barbarian gets Reckless Attack allowing for advantage on all attacks as well, if the barb uses Reckless Attack while raging the penalty from reckless attack is almost completely removed. This allows the barb to really out-damage the avenger.

As for level 20, it's hardly the most OP capstone (I'm looking at you Druid)


Alright so as to your damage chart I complement you on being so thorough, but as is it shows that the avenger does 20% more dmg than the Paladin at level 20. That is too high. I have some ideas for a 11th level dmg boost but with those numbers the Avenger doesnt need it even with his lower defense. This might be solved by not having oath of enmity "always on" though. Find a way to bring the dmg down then we can give it the boost at 11 to fit 5e feel.

CrapCrapCrap, ignore the chart past level ten. The damage is calculated using a feature that's no longer there. I'll fix the chart as quick as I can.

(EDIT: I updated the chart so that it properly calculates the damage of the current version.)

The one feature that was in place maximized the damage your weapon would do (Greatsword would do a flat 12), the feature has been removed but the math hasn't been changed.

Also thanks, the chart took 9 hours to make.


I dont mean to be nitpicky. Overall its a great class but I think it needs some finetuning to find the right balance.

I agree, let me change the chart and then lets take a second look at it.

Edit: the avenger needs a hefty level 11 to keep it up with the paladin (The avenger should actually out-damage the paladin because the paladin is more tanky)

Rerem115
2016-09-08, 06:40 PM
True, but at level 2 the barbarian gets Reckless Attack allowing for advantage on all attacks as well, if the barb uses Reckless Attack while raging the penalty from reckless attack is almost completely removed.

Not really; it's definitely detrimental when there's more than one or two enemies, and you're sacrificing your primary quality as a barbarian: soak damage for as long as possible. Also, you can't really compare Reckless Attacks to Oath; barbarians can't cast spells while using Reckless Attacks when they do so "with no penalty", as you put it..

In addition, your argument for the weakness of Oath is flawed. You say you lose the bonus if the target moves away or flees. Thing is, that's still a win, since they spent a round doing no damage or left altogether (which is functionally identical to killing them).

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-08, 06:58 PM
As you have it written, the Avenger is going to run into problems similar to those I ran into with the Rythmist. When you build your core class feature around guaranteeing a powerful, ordinarily fairly rare bonus (advantage for the Avenger, critical hits for the Rythmist), it warps the power level of the class because it tends to exaggerate any other bonuses the class gets; a normally balanced feature becomes extremely strong when you can guarantee it every round/multiply its effects.

(It's good to see you again Rerem haven't talked in a while, also I'm afraid I haven't read your Rythmist. Link?)

I like to believe I understand the effect of advantage warping the damage of other features, I've tried to limit damage boosting effects and spells to a minimum. But let's talk about features


You have arguably the strongest level 2 in the game. You get three features; spellcasting, Oath, and Blade of Zeal. Spellcasting is spellcasting, with all the goodies that entails. Even with only 6 Oath uses a day, you have more or less constant advantage (unless you're fighting hordes), so your damage output increases by an average of 25% just from the to hit bonus. Your crit chance doubles, and with Blade of Zeal, nearly triples, increasing your damage by an additional ~30%. Blade of Zeal also gives you the equivalent of +1 to hit, increasing your damage by another 5%. While I know you find advantage common, at will, constant, no drawback/opportunity cost advantage is extremely rare, and extremely strong. Even though, though perhaps becase, Oath is the core feature, it needs its use limited. Changing recharge to long rests would be a good place to start, and moving Blade of Zeal to level 11 would help spread out the damage scaling.

I'm not quite sure how you reached the number's that you did, but I assure you the effects of the features aren't as drastic as it might seem.

Spellcasting: The avenger uses the normal half-casting variant, and focuses on smites and spells that either buff themselves or de-buffs enemies. Even calculating in the effects of advantage the avenger falls behind the paladin whose divine smite provides a surplus of spell damage.

Oath of Enmity: The bonus from advantage is at maximum +25%, but on average is only a +15-20% bonus. The bonus to crit. provide only a minute damage increase.




Critical hit bonus damage comparison

Normal - 0.05(7)=0.35
Advantage - 0.098(7)=0.68

Crits from advantage only deal 0.33 more damage than regular crits




BoZ: One of my personal favorites, BoZ provides an alternate crit chance and bonus damage when it happens. The effect of BoZ is tiny (but cool).



Avenger with 16 Strength wields a greatsword

Level 2

W/o BoZ - 1.225(7+3)+0.098(7) = 12.94
With BoZ - 1.225(7+3)+0.144(7)+0.048(2) = 13.35

Damage from BoZ = 0.41 Damage

The damage from BoZ is incredibly small, it's just really satisfying when it finally happens.

Even at level 20 the damage increase from BoZ is only +1.21



I'm sorry if I sounded rude, I just wanted to make sure that the numbers weren't misconstrued.

If you want to see all of the avenger's features calculated together (Advantage, BoZ, etc.) I actually have a chart that has the damage per day calculated by level. It compares it side-by-side to the paladin.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QBH222KM3q6rIBs3JvUheCtIOasX5GFD-UMQCg3ArF4/pub
(Oath is calculated so that each use last 3-4 rounds, about as long as a single creature lasts.)

I hope I was able to clear things up, if the math didn't make sense just ask and I'll write out the explanation.

Rerem115
2016-09-08, 07:03 PM
Also, there's one feat that breaks the Avenger in half--Magic Initiate. You take the feat, choose Shillelagh, any other druid cantrip you want, and any 1st level druid spell you want. You now calculate hit points, to hit, damage, AC, and ability DC off one ability score.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-08, 07:15 PM
Not really; it's definitely detrimental when there's more than one or two enemies, and you're sacrificing your primary quality as a barbarian: soak damage for as long as possible. Also, you can't really compare Reckless Attacks to Oath; barbarians can't cast spells while using Reckless Attacks when they do so "with no penalty", as you put it..

Even with Reckless Attack providing advantage on attacks the rages damage resistance cancels out any damage that spawns from it. Especially if the barbarian goes totem bear (E.G. The barb grants advantage, meaning a +25% or so damage intake, but rage reduces this damage by 50%, practically nullifying it) The barb still takes more damage than if he didn't use it, but less than any other class would be taking. Coupled with the barb's higher life and durability, the bonus from Reckless Attack far out-weighs the risk.

(Sidenote: I always thought the point of a barbarian was to deal damage. Hmm...)

I misspoke earlier, Rage definitely has it's drawbacks, but it's also a lot stronger than an avenger's oath. More power for more drawbacks I suppose.


In addition, your argument for the weakness of Oath is flawed. You say you lose the bonus if the target moves away or flees. Thing is, that's still a win, since they spent a round doing no damage or left altogether (which is functionally identical to killing them).

Creatures can switch places with allies and not provoke opportunity attacks, but you're right, it's not that much of a drawback.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-08, 07:23 PM
Also, there's one feat that breaks the Avenger in half--Magic Initiate. You take the feat, choose Shillelagh, any other druid cantrip you want, and any 1st level druid spell you want. You now calculate hit points, to hit, damage, AC, and ability DC off one ability score.

But your damage dips into the gutter (as oath can only be used with strength based attacks, I would rule that using shillelagh would make it no longer count as "Strength Based"), and without Dex. support your AC is pretty terrible.

It would work for a tankier build I suppose.

Rerem115
2016-09-08, 07:29 PM
Oath of Enmity: The bonus from advantage is at maximum +25%, but on average is only a +15-20% bonus. The bonus to crit provides only a minute damage increase.


Actually, Oath damage bonus varies wildly depending on the AC of the enemy. If they have such a low AC that you only miss on a nat 1, it only buffs your damage by >5% (That would require 2 nat 1s, so 1/400 chance. 5%-.25%=4.75%). On the other hand, if their AC is so high that you only hit on a nat 20, it about doubles your damage, since you get twice as many chances to hit. Because of this, I like to estimate advantage at 25%; the DMs I've played with like boss fights more than random encounters, so AC tends to be skewed to the high end, buffing advantage.

When you think about it, advantage is like the level 3 feature of the Champion. Since you're rolling twice as many dice, your critical chance is about doubled. This stacks with Blade of Zeal, which has a 19/400, or ~1/20 chance of triggering, which essentially triples your critical range. But since Blade of Zeal has a 1/20 chance of triggering regardless of the roll, it also lets you pull a hit out of nowhere on (assuming 50% chance to hit) half the times it triggers. 1/2 x 1/20 = 1/40, but since the hit is critical, I treat it as 1/20, or +1 to hit.

So, when you put that all together, you are 25% more likely to hit, ~3 times as likely to crit, and have a +1 to hit bonus. For damage, ~3 times as likely to crit looks like ~50% (bonus damage from a critical w/ only weapon) x .15 (chance to crit) = 7.5% more damage, or 5% more damage than a normal attack. However, since you have spells that can critically strike, I figure 15% more damage would be a safe estimate.

When this is combined with spellcasting, your level 2 is strong. It's a half caster who has constant advantage, which when combined with BoZ, gives you the Champion's level 15 and +1 to hit. That's what I meant when I said constant advantage warps damage; not only are you hitting more often (thus dealing more damage), you're critting more often (thus dealing more damage), and you're able to use abilities like GWM more reliably (thus dealing even more damge).

EDIT: Oops, I used .1 instead of .05 for calculating critical chance. Fixed.

Rerem115
2016-09-08, 07:45 PM
But your damage dips into the gutter (as oath can only be used with strength based attacks, I would rule that using shillelagh would make it no longer count as "Strength Based"), and without Dex. support your AC is pretty terrible.

It would work for a tankier build I suppose.

You couldn't use Oath, but you'd still have plenty of utility and damage from your spells and other class features. Also, your AC wouldn't suffer, since after maxing Wis, you'd max Dex, giving you 20 AC by level 16. In addition, all you would lose would be constant advantage, since you can still use your Oath, thus granting all the subclass bonuses. And yes, you'd be really tanky.



Level
HP
AC


1
13
16


4
48
17


8
74
18


12
136
19


16
180
20


19
213
20



Now, how much would your damage be? With a quarterstaff and 20 Wis, that's still 1d10 (versatile)+5 on each attack, with an additional 1d4+5 as a bonus action with PAM, and you can cast your smites, which have a higher save DC, so they trigger their extra effects more often. Yes, you lose out on constant advantage, but you can still benefit from BoZ on other sources of advantage. I'd call this significantly stronger than the standard Avenger build, if with a lower DPR.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-08, 08:37 PM
You couldn't use Oath, but you'd still have plenty of utility and damage from your spells and other class features. Also, your AC wouldn't suffer, since after maxing Wis, you'd max Dex, giving you 20 AC by level 16. In addition, all you would lose would be constant advantage, since you can still use your Oath, thus granting all the subclass bonuses. And yes, you'd be really tanky.



Level
HP
AC


1
13
16


4
48
17


8
74
18


12
136
19


16
180
20


19
213
20



Now, how much would your damage be? With a quarterstaff and 20 Wis, that's still 1d10 (versatile)+5 on each attack, with an additional 1d4+5 as a bonus action with PAM, and you can cast your smites, which have a higher save DC, so they trigger their extra effects more often. Yes, you lose out on constant advantage, but you can still benefit from BoZ on other sources of advantage. I'd call this significantly stronger than the standard Avenger build, if with a lower DPR.

(I don't think versatile would work with shillelagh, as it changes the weapons die to a flat d8 no matter what)

Even building this way, you'd be outclassed by a similarly power-built paladin.

A Str/Con paladin wielding a sword and shield:



Level
HP
AC


1
13
18


4
40
18


8
76
19


12
124
20


16
180
20


19
213
20



The paladin could deal 1d8+1d8+5+2 (dueling) deal more smite damage than the Wis-Avenger thanks to Divine Smite (Which isn't based off of charisma at all). He'd have slightly less life but more ac lower level and equal the avenger in both at higher level. And he could still use all of his Paladin abilities as normal. Without needing to go variant human to pick up Magic Initiate, and he still has an open feat slot. (Shield-Master probably).

His saves would be low, but he doesn't need them since he's dealing nothing but pure damage.

Also due to Lay on hands he is way more durable than the avenger. (+5 health per level, that's like a 30 in Constitution)

The Shillelagh avenger would be powerful, a definite "power-strat", but it'd be no more broken than any other power-built character. (If a player really wanted to break a character, there's plenty of ways to do it)

Rerem115
2016-09-08, 08:57 PM
To be fair, the Avenger doesn't have a level 11 damage buff yet.

Disregarding IDS, the paladin only deals 1 more DPR (2 if shilelagh disallows versatile). In return, the avenger would have excellent saves, no armor penalty, maximized DCs, and maximized class features (a lot of you abilities scale with Wis). You can keep up with the paladin (and exceed them in several aspects).

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-08, 09:16 PM
Actually, Oath damage bonus varies wildly depending on the AC of the enemy. If they have such a low AC that you only miss on a nat 1, it only buffs your damage by >5% (That would require 2 nat 1s, so 1/400 chance. 5%-.25%=4.75%). On the other hand, if their AC is so high that you only hit on a nat 20, it about doubles your damage, since you get twice as many chances to hit. Because of this, I like to estimate advantage at 25%; the DMs I've played with like boss fights more than random encounters, so AC tends to be skewed to the high end, buffing advantage.

I see where your coming from, but a +25% is still too high of an assumption. Unless all battles were fought at extreme values the bonus settles at a more meager +20%. (All of my calculations have been done using a high estimate of +22.5%)


When you think about it, advantage is like the level 3 feature of the Champion. Since you're rolling twice as many dice, your critical chance is about doubled. This stacks with Blade of Zeal, which has a 19/400, or ~1/20 chance of triggering, which essentially triples your critical range. But since Blade of Zeal has a 1/20 chance of triggering regardless of the roll, it also lets you pull a hit out of nowhere on (assuming 50% chance to hit) half the times it triggers. 1/2 x 1/20 = 1/40, but since the hit is critical, I treat it as 1/20, or +1 to hit.

Critical hit chance should not be calculated as an increase in normal hit chance. Unless critical hits are the only ones that you're able to land on a foe (good luck if they are) they're nothing more than normal hits with bonus damage attached.

Example: A level 20 champion has a 15% chance to crit. but with a +11 to hit against an AC 22 opponent he still only has a 50% chance to hit. The expanded crit. chance does not affect his hit chance. Of his ten possible rolls that would hit (11-20) only 3 would deal crit. damage. This crit chance does not mean he is 5% more likely to hit, only to crit.


So, when you put that all together, you are 25% more likely to hit, ~3 times as likely to crit, and have a +1 to hit bonus. For damage, ~3 times as likely to crit looks like ~50% (bonus damage from a critical w/ only weapon) x .15 (chance to crit) = 7.5% more damage, or 5% more damage than a normal attack. However, since you have spells that can critically strike, I figure 15% more damage would be a safe estimate.

It seems like a lot when written out like this, but unless we're talking about extreme AC's the damage outputs of each class over the course of a day are relatively the same. And after everything else, isn't that whats most important?


When this is combined with spellcasting, your level 2 is strong. It's a half caster who has constant advantage, which when combined with BoZ, gives you the Champion's level 15 and +1 to hit. That's what I meant when I said constant advantage warps damage; not only are you hitting more often (thus dealing more damage), you're critting more often (thus dealing more damage), and you're able to use abilities like GWM more reliably (thus dealing even more damge).

Compared to a level 2 paladin it looks normal, the avenger's smites hit more often but deal less damage than the paladin's smites when combined with GWF.

The avenger get's BoZ, a hard to trigger crit that adds less than a point of damage. While the paladin get's Divine Smite, an at-will ability that provides devastating damage at the cost of spell-slots.

The paladin gets GWF (or another fighting style) that provides an endless buff on hit throughout the day. The avenger gets Oath, a limited ability that's stronger than a fighting style but more limited and only for a limited amount of time.

We haven't even touched on Oath's biggest restriction, while in use the avenger can't benefit from any outside sources of advantage. When an opponent would grant advantage, the avenger would fall behind other classes.

It's not like advantage is hard to get any-ways, there are 70+ ways to get it in the PHB alone.



As of now the following actions, features, and spells grant advantage either directly (explicitly says advantage) or indirectly (from a status effect such as: Blinded, Hidden, Incapacitated, Invisibility, Paralyzed, Prone, Restrained, or Stunned)

Actions:



Ball Bearings
Net
Help
Hide
Shove


Features:



Channel Divinity: Cloak of Shadows
Channel Divinity: Nature's Wrath
Cloak of Shadows
Empty Body
Fist of Unbroken Air
Hypnotic Gaze
One With Shadows
Open Hand Technique
Reckless Attack
Totemic Attunement (Wolf)
Trip Attack
Stunning Strike
Vow of Enmity
Water Whip
Wild Surge (roll 75-76)
Wild Surge (roll 89-90)


Spells:



Blinding Smite
Blindness Deafness
Color Spray
Command
Contagion (Blinding Sickness)
Contagion (Slimy Doom)
Destructive Wave
Divine Word
Earthquake
Ensnaring Strike
Entangle
Evard's Black Tentacles
Faerie Fire
Find Familiar (Can take the Help action)
Grease
Greater Invisibility
Hold Monster
Hold Person
Holy Aura
Hunger of Hadar
Hypnotic Pattern
Invisibility
Imprisonment (Chaining)
Mislead
Power Word Stun
Prismatic Ray (Roll 7)
Sleet Storm
Sunbeam
Sunburst
Symbol (Pain)
Symbol (Stunning)
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Telekenisis (Creature)
Thunderous Smite
True Strike
Web


The majority of these features provide other benefits from Advantage, such as but not limited to: Enemy has disadvantage on attacks, Enemy can't move, Enemy can't attack, Enemy can't react.

Rerem115
2016-09-08, 09:49 PM
Critical hit chance should not be calculated as an increase in normal hit chance. Unless critical hits are the only ones that you're able to land on a foe (good luck if they are) they're nothing more than normal hits with bonus damage attached.


I count it as an increase in hit chance because it is. It gives you a 1/40 (+.5) chance to hit if you would have missed anyway; however, since that hit is a critical, it deals damage as though you landed ~1.5 attacks. Thus, you can treat it as a +.75 (rounded to 1) to hit.

If I really want to power build, I would go half-orc, 2 avenger/X fighter (Champion). With 6 uses of Oath every day, by level 5, I have 6 minutes every day where I have a 23.75% chance to critically strike (19% from Improved Critical + Advantage + 4.75% from BoZ). By the time I hit 18th level, that becomes 31.5% chance to critically strike, on top of the damage bonus provided from hitting more frequently from BoZ and advantage. This is why at will, no drawback/opportunity cost advantage needs to be more tightly restricted.

Also, all the other examples you listed have a not insignificant cost. They require enemies to fail saves or not notice you. They require items that you have to repurchase and carry (Net, Ball Bearings). They require you (Hide) or your allies spending their action (Help) or part of their action (trip, shove, grapple/restrain). In addition, many of them require a spell slot or other limited resource. Above all, most don't last for more than a round or so; a prone enemy can stand up on their turn, and a stunned or paralyzed enemy can repeat a save. The only features that grant guaranteed advantage and doesn't require the enemy to fail something or your allies to give up something is the barbarian's Reckless Attacks, and that grants enemies the same bonus against you, and the Vengeance paladin's CD, which is only usable once per short rest.

EDIT: I looked at the wrong math; I was looking at likelihood to crit in one round, not one attack.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-08, 10:41 PM
I count it as an increase in hit chance because it is. It gives you a 1/40 (+.5) chance to hit if you would have missed anyway; however, since that hit is a critical, it deals damage as though you landed ~1.5 attacks. Thus, you can treat it as a +.75 (rounded to 1) to hit.

But that's not how it works, a fighter with a 25% percent chance to hit and a 5% chance to crit. would hit 25% of the time and crit 5% of the time. If the fighter then learned to crit 10% of the time he would still only hit 25% percent of the time. He may do more damage on average but that does not equate to hitting more often. Any roll that would Crit. has several lower rolls that would hit anyways.

If a level 2 fighter were to fight a creature, he would deal normal damage 50% of the time and deal crit damage 5% of the time.

If a level 3 fighter were to fight the same creature, he would deal normal damage 50% of the time and crit damage 10% of the time.

He wouldn't deal normal damage 50.75% percent of the time because his "to hit" remains unchanged.

For crit chance to provide a bonus to your hit chance, your "to hit" would have to be less than your crit chance. At level 1 to be able to hit an opponent less than 10% of the time the enemy would need to have an AC of 24, that's fighting an Ancient dragon at first level.


If I really want to power build, I would go half-orc, 2 avenger/X fighter (Champion). With 6 uses of Oath every day, by level 5, I have 6 minutes every day where I have a 23.75% chance to critically strike (19% from Improved Critical + Advantage + 4.75% from BoZ). By the time I hit 18th level, that becomes 51.55% chance to critically strike, on top of the damage bonus provided from hitting more frequently from BoZ and advantage. This is why at will, no drawback/opportunity cost advantage needs to be more tightly restricted.

How in the world did you get 51%, at max I can see a 32% chance (15% before advantage, 27.7 with advantage, add the +4.6% from BoZ and you get 32%) still really high but not 50%


Also, all the other examples you listed have a not insignificant cost. They require enemies to fail saves or not notice you. They require items that you have to repurchase and carry (Net, Ball Bearings). They require you (Hide) or your allies spending their action (Help) or part of their action (trip, shove, grapple/restrain). In addition, many of them require a spell slot or other limited resource. Above all, most don't last for more than a round or so; a prone enemy can stand up on their turn, and a stunned or paralyzed enemy can repeat a save. The only features that grant guaranteed advantage and doesn't require the enemy to fail something or your allies to give up something is the barbarian's Reckless Attacks, and that grants enemies the same bonus against you, and the Vengeance paladin's CD, which is only usable once per short rest.

But the vast majority provide the bonus not only to yourself but also to any other ally nearby, you may give up an action or bonus action but then you grant 3-4+ attacks advantage on the attack.

In a lot of your examples so far you state at level 2 the avenger would have 6 minutes of advantage, while he theoretically does, that's the maximum possible amount of time the avenger could have Oath active, while in use he'd be lucky to have it on half of that time.

If I were to dumb Oath down, how would I do it? Make it once per short rest at level 2? but then it would be on the same usage as the Vengeance paladin's Vow. The vengeance paladin could "Oath" as often as the avenger, deal more damage (from their fighting style), have higher AC, and better smite casting.

I agree that it needs to be scaled down, but just a tad, to much and this class becomes really weak.

Rerem115
2016-09-08, 11:11 PM
But that's not how it works, a fighter with a 25% percent chance to hit and a 5% chance to crit. would hit 25% of the time and crit 5% of the time. If the fighter then learned to crit 10% of the time he would still only hit 25% percent of the time. He may do more damage on average but that does not equate to hitting more often. Any roll that would Crit. has several lower rolls that would hit anyways.

I was referring specifically to Blade of Zeal. Since it doesn't matter what you roll, so long as both the dice match, it does in fact increase your chance to hit. It adds a 19/400 chance to crit, which is by definition a hit, regardless of how high you roll. 19/400 ~ 1/20. For roughly half of all Blade of Zeal triggers, you would have hit anyway, so it's only an increase to damage for a single attack. On the other hand, the other half would have missed, thus Blade of Zeal increases your chance to hit on one half of its triggers, or ~1/40. 1/40 translates to +.5. However, if BoZ triggers when you would have missed, you deal more than one attack's worth of damage; it's as if you landed ~1.5 attacks. So, while BoZ only literally increases your chance to hit by +.5, it increases your damage as though you had landed another half of an attack, so BoZ functionally deals damage as though your bonus to hit was greater, which is why I rounded it up to +1.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-09, 09:13 AM
I was referring specifically to Blade of Zeal. Since it doesn't matter what you roll, so long as both the dice match, it does in fact increase your chance to hit. It adds a 19/400 chance to crit, which is by definition a hit, regardless of how high you roll. 19/400 ~ 1/20. For roughly half of all Blade of Zeal triggers, you would have hit anyway, so it's only an increase to damage for a single attack. On the other hand, the other half would have missed, thus Blade of Zeal increases your chance to hit on one half of its triggers, or ~1/40. 1/40 translates to +.5. However, if BoZ triggers when you would have missed, you deal more than one attack's worth of damage; it's as if you landed ~1.5 attacks. So, while BoZ only literally increases your chance to hit by +.5, it increases your damage as though you had landed another half of an attack, so BoZ functionally deals damage as though your bonus to hit was greater, which is why I rounded it up to +1.

Okay, I see, I thought you were somehow retroactively adding crit chance to normal hit.

So on a 50% chance to hit BoZ gives a +2.25% chance to hit. And as these hits are crits you rounded the plus to hit up instead of listing the bonus damage seperately.

I see what you did now, it's an interesting way to do it. I'm sorry for being blind.

clash
2016-09-09, 12:48 PM
I haven't a clue for the 11th level, I don't want to use the cliché "add 1d8 damage" that I see in alot of homebrew, and a third attack is too powerful for a half-caster. I've run through several other ideas but they were either too powerful or too wonky.

Any ideas?

So here is a few ideas that are not just add 1d8 to your dmg:

1. Crush spirit - As a bonus action crush the spirit of your oath target. They must make wisdom save or take xdx psychic dmg. Half on success.
2. Friend of my enemy - Any time you hit the target of your oath with a melee attack you can use your bonus action to make an attack against another enemy within reach. the second target must be allied with your oath target.

Might have to adjust or play around with action economy.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-09, 03:36 PM
So here is a few ideas that are not just add 1d8 to your dmg:

1. Crush spirit - As a bonus action crush the spirit of your oath target. They must make wisdom save or take xdx psychic dmg. Half on success.


I like the idea, the 4e Avenger did have psychic damage riders on a lot of his attacks. But not as a bonus action. The avenger has smites, spells and other class abilities that would conflict heavily with a bonus action damage dealer.

We could make it so that the creature rolls a save on hit, and then deal damage accordingly, we would just need to figure out how much damage a save would constitute.
We might have to worry that this would cause too many extra rolls though.



2. Friend of my enemy - Any time you hit the target of your oath with a melee attack you can use your bonus action to make an attack against another enemy within reach. the second target must be allied with your oath target.

Again with the bonus action, and this one feels too similar to "As One"

I like the ideas so far, Crush Spirit seems promising.

clash
2016-09-10, 07:36 AM
The idea behind crush spirit is that it's not linked to your attack. So you can crush spirit without hitting him with an attack that round. Wouldn't have to use a bonus action though that was just a suggestion

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-11, 02:20 PM
The idea behind crush spirit is that it's not linked to your attack. So you can crush spirit without hitting him with an attack that round. Wouldn't have to use a bonus action though that was just a suggestion

To be an effective level 11 it almost needs to be something that can be used almost every round.

It cant be a bonus action or a reaction because those conflict with other class abilites (Righteous Retribution and As One namely).

It could be a limited use action, like a once per short rest super smite, or something along those lines.

Otherwise it needs to be an "on hit" damage dealer to allow the avenger to keep up with the paladin.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-11, 02:34 PM
Oath is the core feature, it needs its use limited. Changing recharge to long rests would be a good place to start.

I agree that the oath may need to be limited, and I've come up with two ideas:

1 - We leave the duration as is, but change it to a long rest recharge, starting at 2-4 uses at second level and going up to 6-8 uses at higher levels.

(Slightly more uses than the barbarians rage because oath is weaker and would only last as long as its target)

2 - The duration of each oath could be changed to your Wis. Mod. The progresion would start the same but only go up to 4 uses a short rest at level 17-20

I'm mostly impartial between the two, leaning slightly towards #1.

Thoughts?

clash
2016-09-11, 07:50 PM
I think 1 is better. Durations are usually kept pretty simple in 5e. Most combat abilities are 1 Mon rather than a number of rounds.

Rerem115
2016-09-11, 08:05 PM
To be an effective level 11 it almost needs to be something that can be used almost every round.


The ranger would beg to differ. I haven't seen a single, actual scenario in standard play where the Hunter ranger would rather Whirlwind than just attack; it denies them two of their core class features (Dual wielding, Hunter's Mark). :P

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-11, 10:14 PM
The ranger would beg to differ. I haven't seen a single, actual scenario in standard play where the Hunter ranger would rather Whirlwind than just attack; it denies then two of their core class features (Dual wielding, Hunter's Mark). :P

True. I may have over simplified. Th avenger needs something that will boost their damage per day to 5-10% more than the paladin. It doesn't have to be an on hit thing, but that's the simplest and (IMO) the most effective way.

On a that same note I have a "semi-serious" suggestion for a 11 eleven, we could make the avenger's crits deal more damage on hit.

To increase the avenger's damage to the desired ~21 damage (paladin's is 19.25) we would have to make the avenger do 4d12 extra damage on a crit.



Avenger: Level 11 - 20 Str. - Greatsword

Greatsword deal 7 damage plus 5 from Strength


7+5= 12

Add damage increase from Oath


1.225(7+5)= 14.7

Add crit chance from advantage and Crit. damage


1.225(7+5)+0.098(7)= 15.38

Add bonus to Hit and bonus to Crit. from BoZ


1.25(7+5)+0.144(7)= 16.01

Add bonus damage from BoZ crits


1.25(7+5)+0.144(7)+0.048(11)= 16.54

Add 4d12 (26) damage on a crit.


1.25(7+5)+0.144(7+26)+0.048(11)= 20.28


Total Damage: 20.28



Mathematically it's just what need to buff the avenger's damage, but 4d12? It sounds ridiculous...

Again I'm not really serious about putting this in, more for the fun of doing the math.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-09-11, 10:20 PM
I think 1 is better. Durations are usually kept pretty simple in 5e. Most combat abilities are 1 Mon rather than a number of rounds.

Okay, I'll run the numbers on the giant chart again, and try to find just how many uses the avenger would need per day.

For the math, how many turns should I assume the oath lasts? It would be unfair to assume that every oath lasts the full minute (as most creatures would die before then). I think ~6 rounds would be around the average. But what do you think?