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View Full Version : Optimization Arch Lantern Corps: a silly Create Lantern Archon optimization exercise of mine



Jowgen
2016-09-06, 11:00 PM
As some of you might recall, I developed a fascination with the Create Lantern Archon spell a while back. I have now reached a point where I feel that I have done as much silly optimization as I can with these babies, and I herein present the final unified result of that. It's not a hand-book (not RAW-tight enough for my taste), I'm simply seeking comments, nit-picks and ideas for further shenanigans.

The Basics

Create Lantern Archon is a Conjuration (Creation) spells that allows a caster to literally create a new, permanent Lantern Archon. This Lantern is supposed to be simple-task obedient for an hour, or serve as per lesser planar binding, before leaving for your deity's home plane. The purpose here is to work around this limitation for maximum profit.

The concept of the Arch Lantern Corps rests upon two assumptions.

1. While the MM presents the standard Lantern Archon, there can be variation in any given Lantern's make-up, and since the caster actively creates the Lantern Archon from scratch, he should be able to decide what these variations are. In effect, the assumption is that the caster can choose the ability score distribution, feats, flaws and so on for the Lantern he creates. There is no solid RAW to support this, so it's firmly in "does it make sense with thy DM" territory. If not, then the same results can be achieved through more cumbersome methods (e.g. Psychic Reformation).

2. It is possible to circumvent the 1-hour/lesser-planar-binding "Terms of Service" of a created Lantern and recruit it as a follower for the Leadership feat (no LA = 1 HD followers). This may or may not require a Leadership Check (see Power of Faerun), the lack of a patron deity, and/or a "mental readjustment" process of choice that works on Lantern Archons (sufficiently covered in suitable threads).

The resulting goal is to create and recruit a large number of custom built Lantern Archon's to do one's bidding. From here on out, I showcase what 1 HD lantern archon builds I have come up with for this.

General Uses of any given Arch Lantern

Being Archons, each Lantern has the ability to use greater teleport at will. This effectively allows for one to employ them as an instant communications and goods-transport system. Their minor SLAs (e.g. Aid at will) make them decent support for low-level armies, and their continual flame SLA takes care of all the magical light one could ever want.

Arch Lantern 1: Guardian

This Lantern distributes the non-elite array to get 13 points in Constitution. This qualifies them for the Touch of Golden Ice feat, which they can employ with their ranged light ray attack (the RAW on it being a natural attack is pretty solid, according to my past threads on the topic). With 2 flaws (likely inherited from their creator), they can also take Flyby Attack and ability focus: Touch of Golden Ice.

This allows the Guardian Lantern to take full advantage of their perfect 60 ft flight speed to make strafe/kiting attacks on Evil enemies, allowing them to move in, fire their 30 ft touch attack ray, do some irresitable damage and force a save against Golden Ice (with a boosted DC) before moving back into a safe distance. If facing Undead, who have terrible Fort save and are not only non-immune but extra vulnerable to Golden Ice, a single Guardian Lantern can take on grossly over-CRed enemies (e.g. Nightcrawlers). Once they show up in significant numbers, few evil creatures stand a chance.

Arch Lantern 2: Watchmen

This Lantern distributes the non-elite array to get 13 points in Wisdom. This qualifies them for the Knight of Tyr's Merciful sword feat. With a single flaw, and exposure to the a Commune or Contact other Plane spell, they also qualify for the the Omniscient Whispers spelltouched feat. Furthermore, they can take the Fell Conspiracy feat for good measure (though they can't get the full benefit) with a second flaw.

Once per week, these Lanterns can use Knight of Tyr's Merciful Sword to determine the direction of the greatest Evil within 1-10 miles (depending on use) of them, and with 2-3 of them and the right set-up, one can triangulate not only the direction but the exact location of said evil. Following thins, the Sentinel can use Omniscient Whispers to get the benefit of a commune spell, allowing them to ask vital questions regarding the Evil that they've pin-pointed. With exact location and information on the Evil, there one is in a perfect position to send out some Guardian Lanterns to take care of things.

Fell Conspiracy effectively gives them and any participants in their daily ritual Message at will, which might be handy for in-field communications.

Arch Lantern 3: Spy

These Lanterns can have any ability score distribution, as they only need the following 3 feats: Bind Vestige, Practiced Binder and Improved Bind vestige. This allows them to bind Malphas and use his Bird's Eye viewing ability. This allows the Lantern to summon a Dove (Raven without speech) that it fully controls and autmatically shares its senses with over any distance. Obviously, this Dove serves as a highly inconspicuous probe that the spy can send anywhere (e.g. the Evil pinpointed by the Watchment) to get a safe first-hand look at the situation. As the Spy can teleport into the vicintiy of any given location, it can effectively place its eyes and ears anywhere in the world within a very short space of time at no risk.

The above 3 Arch Lanterns are the regular model that doesn't require much to get working. What follows are the high-end models that can seriously alter the game, but rely on a bit more lenience from the DM.

Arch Lantern 4: Creation

These Lanterns can have any ability distribution, as they rely soley on the fact that Lantern Archons have CL of 3 despite their 1 HD. They qualify for the Craft Wondrous Item feat. They can then take the Extraordinary Artisan feat to reduce the base price needed for crafting by 25%, and then take the Magical Artisan feat applied to Extraordinary Artisan to get another 25% off. As this is blatant well-known cheese, they could instead take Create Portal (to start establishing a gate network), Sanctify Relic (to mass-produce e.g. Dawnstars), or any other niche Item Creation Feat that might be useful.

In any case, these Lanterns work in group to cheap craft both mundane and magical items. Talisman's of Transference allow them to source the exp for crafting from any cheese fact... I mean, business model of the player's choosing. If the player can recruit a level 12 Warlock or any given Midgard Dwarf (Forstburn) as a cohort, they do not have to worry about spell prerequesites or CL either. But speaking of CL.

Arch Lantern 5: Arcanist

These Lanterns require a Cha and/or Int boost, either via a template (e.g. Magic Blooded from Dragon 306 for +2 Cha), and the freedom to count as divine by virtue of their cleric list SLAs. If these conditions are met they can qualify for Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice and the Ghostwalk version of Circle Magic. This will allow them to a) cast any 1 2nd level spell per day, and b) use circle magic to boost their CL to 20 (which they can then provide for the creation Lantern's items).

Should it become possible to advance these Lanterns to 3 HD, they can then take Fiery Burst, Acid Splash, or any other level 2 spell requiring reserve feat. Via circle magic, they can then heighten their 2nd level spell to 10th, not cast it, and instead spam their reserve feat attack for e.g. 10d6 fire damage in a 5 ft radius burst (Ref half) at will. These would then be the indiscriminate heavy hitters.


With a Leadership score of 25+, a character can build up an army of 150+ mixed and matched Archons of these. That is the Arch Lantern Corps.

To once again be clear, I do not consider these to be even remotely solid RAW (for the most part). There are a lot of ways a DM could choose to shoot any given one of these down, depending on their reading of the rules and personal whim. At the end of the day, this is simply a "how much use could a Lantern Archon be?" thought experiment. I hope people find it interesting/fun and hopefully come up with some extra ideas. :smallsmile:

Extra Anchovies
2016-09-07, 01:54 AM
Overall? I love the idea. I can neither confirm nor deny that I'll be using the general concept in future builds :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

One thing worth mentioning is that even if you can't select their feat for them at creation, you can have them retrain into said feats. This might allow them to acquire flaws post-creation, but I'm unsure on the rules for that (if possible).

I do, however, have some concerns.

Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores.
Create Lantern Archon creates normal Lantern Archons, so they've got their arrays of 1/11/10/6/11/10. Shuts down the Guardian, Watchman, and Arcanist, but the Spy and Creation Archons are both very clever.

With a single flaw, and exposure to the a Commune or Contact other Plane spell, they also qualify for the the Omniscient Whispers spelltouched feat.
Flaws are chosen at character creation, spelltouched feats cannot be chosen without prior exposure to specific spells, and a creature that is being created (i.e. that is having its starting flaws and feats determined) cannot have prior exposure to specific spells. So you can't choose Spelltouched feats at character creation, which means you also can't retrain into them. We could DCFS, but that's getting into unfit-for-actual-play TO, and a Lantern Archon would be hard-pressed to accept Embrace the Dark Chaos (if it even can, having no heritage) in the absence of metagame knowledge of the DCFS (which is also kinda required for the trick in the first place).

Troacctid
2016-09-07, 03:02 AM
2. It is possible to circumvent the 1-hour/lesser-planar-binding "Terms of Service" of a created Lantern and recruit it as a follower for the Leadership feat (no LA = 1 HD followers). This may or may not require a Leadership Check (see Power of Faerun), the lack of a patron deity, and/or a "mental readjustment" process of choice that works on Lantern Archons (sufficiently covered in suitable threads).
If you really care that much about the duration, why not just use Call Faithful Servants instead of this questionable bit of rules sleight of hand that I'm pretty sure doesn't work?


This qualifies them for the Touch of Golden Ice feat, which they can employ with their ranged light ray attack (the RAW on it being a natural attack is pretty solid, according to my past threads on the topic).
What? How? They're not even a natural ability.

Endarire
2016-09-07, 03:16 AM
It's Frostburn, not Forstburn.

I like the idea of a circle of Lantern Archons getting together for circle (ritual) magic, like to destroy a plane. It's interesting flavor, even if there are no official rules to support this specific outcome.

Extra Anchovies
2016-09-07, 06:25 AM
If you really care that much about the duration, why not just use Call Faithful Servants instead of this questionable bit of rules sleight of hand that I'm pretty sure doesn't work?

A few reasons.
1. Call Faithful Servants requires that the caster be an Outsider with the [Good] subtype due to its Celestial spell component.
2. The Lantern Archons you call are pre-existing Lantern Archons. They get that what you want them to do is important, but they probably had their own business on the upper planes. You don't want to make them put all that stuff off for a whole year, do you?
3. You can only have up to 20 HD of Lantern Archons from Call Faithful Servants, while you can have quite a few more from Leadership, especially with Extra Followers.

Also, who says we can't do both?

I'm not sure where you're seeing rules sleight of hand here. Care to explain the issue(s) you see?


What? How? They're not even a natural ability.

It's (Ex), actually. Yes, nonmagical damaging light. Maybe they have some really strong magnifying glasses, and it's like frying ants on the sidewalk?


Light Ray (Ex)
A lantern archon’s light rays have a range of 30 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.

I read Light Ray as an (Ex) ability that provides some sort of non-weapon weaponlike effect - the closest similar ability I can think of is the Yrthak's sonic lance.

Jowgen
2016-09-07, 10:06 AM
Overall? I love the idea. I can neither confirm nor deny that I'll be using the general concept in future builds :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

I do, however, have some concerns.

Create Lantern Archon creates normal Lantern Archons, so they've got their arrays of 1/11/10/6/11/10. Shuts down the Guardian, Watchman, and Arcanist, but the Spy and Creation Archons are both very clever.

Flaws are chosen at character creation, spelltouched feats cannot be chosen without prior exposure to specific spells, and a creature that is being created (i.e. that is having its starting flaws and feats determined) cannot have prior exposure to specific spells. So you can't choose Spelltouched feats at character creation, which means you also can't retrain into them. We could DCFS, but that's getting into unfit-for-actual-play TO, and a Lantern Archon would be hard-pressed to accept Embrace the Dark Chaos (if it even can, having no heritage) in the absence of metagame knowledge of the DCFS (which is also kinda required for the trick in the first place).

Happy to see the general idea is appreciated :smallsmile:

For their ability scores, if assumption 1 is accepted, I believe the non-elite array can be subsituted for the 10-11 array as it explicitly "does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race".

If not, then yeah, you'd need to source +2 bonuses to the qualifying ability scores from templates you can apply to them or use other creative solutions.

There is RAW support for the retro-active taking of flaws. As per UA, if the DM allows it, a character can take a flaw later on in the sammer manner it could acquire a new Trait, i.e. "after a traumatic or lifechanging experience (after dying, a character might develop the Cautious trait or the Aggressive trait).". Considering that the Lanterns are effectively newborns that have never even been to the higher planes, direct contact with a powerful Archon via commune does seem like it would count as life-changing in this context.


I read Light Ray as an (Ex) ability that provides some sort of non-weapon weaponlike effect - the closest similar ability I can think of is the Yrthak's sonic lance.

I believe the closest things are the Manticore's Spikes [Ex] and the Harpoon Spider's Harpooning (Ex), both of which are clearly ranged natural attacks where the creature launches part of its body. "Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature", and Lantern Archons are literally gaseous globes/balls of light, in this case created by a Conjuration (Creation) Spell with the Light descriptor. It's a weird niche case, but I think with the precedents in mind, and considering that they have no other attacks, I think it's pretty solid. But if it doesn't fly, then it doesn't.

Telonius
2016-09-07, 11:41 AM
I suppose if you were on your Deity's home plane when you cast it, the lantern wouldn't go anywhere when the spell expires.

daremetoidareyo
2016-09-07, 02:56 PM
I've been playing with some weird feats and want to try too.

So our groundrules here are Lantern Archon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm) with a retrained/replaced 1st level feat, up to two flaws, and a non-elite array bent to the needs of the build?

Stat mods= -10 str, -4 int.

Sleepy
Normal stat array
Dream scion (secrets of Sarlona) (temp +2 int/wis/cha boost)
FLAW: Dream of Instinct (Secrets of Sarlona) Augury 1/dreamtouched state
FLAW: Dream of Contact (Secrets of Sarlona) Free 1 way dream message 1/day

OR

Sleepy #2
Dreamtelling (Heroes of Horror) (Use knowledge planes checks to get augury spell type situations going on)
Dream Scion
Dream of Insight (for +10 on knowledge check)

In both cases, you may want to get lucid dreaming skill ranks

Jowgen
2016-09-07, 05:29 PM
I suppose if you were on your Deity's home plane when you cast it, the lantern wouldn't go anywhere when the spell expires.

Ideal one for that would be Fharlanghn. At home on the material plane, no divine domain afaik, and worshipable to 5/9 alignments


I've been playing with some weird feats and want to try too.

So our groundrules here are Lantern Archon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm) with a retrained/replaced 1st level feat, up to two flaws, and a non-elite array bent to the needs of the build?

Welcome to the game :smallbiggrin: And yeah, those be the groundrules. Theoretically, one could also add templates if one had the means, but Outsiders are notoriously hard to template, and there is little to no wiggle room for LA, as that would mess with the Leadership numbers.


Sleepy
Normal stat array
Dream scion (secrets of Sarlona) (temp +2 int/wis/cha boost)
FLAW: Dream of Instinct (Secrets of Sarlona) Augury 1/dreamtouched state
FLAW: Dream of Contact (Secrets of Sarlona) Free 1 way dream message 1/day

OR

Sleepy #2
Dreamtelling (Heroes of Horror) (Use knowledge planes checks to get augury spell type situations going on)
Dream Scion
Dream of Insight (for +10 on knowledge check)

In both cases, you may want to get lucid dreaming skill ranks

Most interesting. Now sleepy #1 seems a bit limited, as dream of contact isn't quite as useful on a creature that can teleport anywhere to communicate; but sleepy #2 intrigues me.

I had considered Dreamtelling as part of the Sentinel Lantern, but the low Knowledge check modifier on a regular Lanterns and their sleep-lessness killed that Idea for me. Dream Scion gets around that nicely, and the flavor fits together

Now sleepy #2 doesn't work as stated unless the DM handwaves Dreamtelling technically not being a dreamtouched feat, as Dream of Insight requires another dreamtouched feat in addition to dream scion. Could replace it with dream of instinct though, as that can also source the +10 skill check bonus.

Now to get the full use out of Dreamtelling one ideally needs to be able to hit a DC 45, as to get a commune out of every dream. Taking 10, using the +10 from Dream of instinct, and assuming that the +2 Int from Dream scion bring the Lanterns Int to a +0 modifier, Sleepy still needs another 25 to his modifer.

Employing a Researcher (Dragon Mag 350, 2500 gp; can be crafted by Creation Lanterns) with a stocked library on interpreting dreams can get an easy +5. The easy option to get the remaining +20 would be Guidance of the avatar, which an Arch Lantern could provide if it picked that as its 2nd level spell via Precocious Apprentice.

Troacctid
2016-09-07, 05:40 PM
I'm not sure where you're seeing rules sleight of hand here. Care to explain the issue(s) you see?
1. Counting lantern archons as 1st level characters even though they have no ECL.
2. Taking a very permissive interpretation of the process for attracting followers.

Jowgen
2016-09-07, 05:54 PM
1. Counting lantern archons as 1st level characters even though they have no ECL.
2. Taking a very permissive interpretation of the process for attracting followers.

Lanterns have an ECL just fine. To quote the WotC Glossary:

A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a splinterwaif has 2 HD and a +4 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of a 6th-level character.

Page 156 of Power of Faerun expands on the DMG's glossed-over follower recruitment process, giving us the Leadership check (which also removes the dysfunction from the Admiral's Bicorne, Stormwrack). It specifically allows you to recruit a specific NPC, with base DCs depending on whether that NPC is in an organization you belong to or is part of a different organization. That's one way to handle it at least. Other minion-mancing/brainwashing procedures may apply as well.

Fizban
2016-09-08, 05:29 AM
A few reasons.
1. Call Faithful Servants requires that the caster be an Outsider with the [Good] subtype due to its Celestial spell component.
Not sure if I mentioned this in one of the previous threads, but I finally found an easy way around that: Spell Compendium, Clr4, Holy Transformation (Lesser). Explicitly changes your type to Outsider [Good] for 1 round/level, which can be enough to cast Call Faithful Servants. More of a "they clearly never meant for this to be possible" than I normally like, but then I usually forget it has that stupid Celestial component anyway. CFS and basic lanterns are enough for me once that problem is dodged, but I do like the first two builds/feat ideas.

daremetoidareyo
2016-09-09, 05:50 PM
ritual of watchfulness (faiths of eberron p.101) can net you a +1 to knowledge planes check

daremetoidareyo
2016-09-09, 06:01 PM
ritual of watchfulness (faiths of eberron p.101) can net you a +1 to knowledge planes check for your dreamtelling shenanigans.

Jowgen
2016-09-11, 01:42 PM
After some reading and picking the Q&A thread's brain, I have devised an improvement to the creation Lanterns.

1. As they have a CL of 14 for their Greater Teleport, they should qualify for item creation feats that have such higher CL prerequesites (Q&A thread was a bit split on that one). Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Forge Ring, Eldeen Plant Grafter, Elemental Grafter and Etch Schema can thus be taken in place of Craft Wondrous Item. Therefore, the list of Items that the Creation Lanterns can craft expands greatly.

2. In retrospect, all Creation Lanterns taking the Extraordinary Artisan feat is a waste. According to the Q&A thread, if some of the lanterns cooperate in crafting, each one counts as a creator per MIC p. 232; so if some of the cooperating Laterns have taken the Legendary Artisan and Exceptional Artisan feats instead of Exceptional Artisan, they can reduce time and EXP in addition to GP.