multiclass suggestions for my rogue

[JeenLeen]

I'm playing a rogue in a game that will likely end around level 10-12. I'm currently level 4, and I don't plan to stay as rogue past level 5. Maybe level 6 if I really want that extra expertise.
There's only 3 PCs in our party, including my rogue, so I can't afford to do tricks like kiting or hiding each round, since I need to be a front-line fighter to a degree. The others are a War cleric (rather tanky/slashy) and a warlock (back-line Eldritch Blaster). I realize rogue may not have been the best choice, but that's what I've got.

Stats are Str 8 / Dex 16 / Con 16 / Wis 14 / Int 8 / Cha 12. At level 4, I took the Observant feat to avoid the annoyance of stealth'ed dudes and missing traps/hidden doors. Arcane Trickster archetype.
I want to multiclass to increase my damage output and, if possible, to increase my AC. I'm currently dual wielding shortswords (one +1, and one silvered). I have a magic staff I'm attuned to that gives +1 AC and lets me keep Mage Armor active 24/7 (I think it's called the Staff of Defense, from some module).
I probably won't use a shield so I can keep dual wielding. Also, medium armor doesn't seem like it's really boost my AC, especially if I get +2 Dex from my next ability score improvement.

The viable options look to be:
Fighter -- pros: Battlemaster gives some handy tricks, like tripping to get advantage & sneak attack. Action Surge. Level 11 has a bonus feat.
Ranger -- pros: bonus skill proficiency. Magic, especially Hunter's Mark.
cons: some class features are probably useless, although I like the bonus language from Favored Enemy
Cleric -- from character's deity/fluff, I can probably get Light, Knowledge, or Life. I don't want disadvantage on Stealth, but I could see it for the AC of full plate.
pros: can get heavy armor proficiency if Life; some cool proficiencies/languages if Knowledge. Spellcasting.
cons: doesn't seem to really help damage output
(Monk looks interesting, but not really viable since my 14 Wisdom means Mage Armor gives better AC, and I'm sure my DM would rule, as RAW, that unarmed strikes can't get sneak attack.)

I'm leaning towards ranger or cleric, since I think those would best help me in combat, but any recommendations?
If recommending Ranger, what archetype recommendations?

EDIT: forgot mention that we are PHB-only for options, so those are my archetype limitations. Also, no Booming Blade or other useful melee cantrips.

[denthor]

With an 8 strength fighter anything out of equation -1 to all damage rolls problems with carrying things as well. Wisdom is best stat with 14 cleric would be my choice keep tank going protection from evil for a/c

[WereRabbitz]

Plan A Honestly a Dex Fighter would be good go the Battle Maneuver route to work off of Reflexes more then brute force.

You get more feats so pick up Dual Wielder and Defensive Duelist to make your rogue a bit more tankier without having to use heavy armor.

Between Tricks & Maneuvers you should be able to keep the enemy on their toes and if it last longer you can up your stats more.

Allows you to use finesse weapons and use your Dex for Damage bonus. Would allow the TWF Style to be picked up for more damage or Defense for tankier.



Plan B would be to go Ranger and pick up the Hunter route to again work off your high dex score using mobility and add to your current caster level.

Caster wise ending your rogue on 3 or 6 would be best to max out your Spell level, but up too you.


Plan C Cleric Trickster Domain and check out some of those spiritual attacks they get.
This is my favorite one for flavor reasons Rogue turned Cleric to redeem his ways, but still follows the trickster gods, ect...

You can skip the plate armor and use things like Mirror Image and Duplicity to help reduce damage or Shield of Faith.



All 3 avoid plate and heavy weapons to avoid encumberance.
GL!

[smcmike]

I vote Battlemaster, but Ranger is good too.

[Specter]

Fighter and Ranger are equally good. It all comes down to whether the first level of ranger is worth it in your campaign, with terrains and specific enemies and such. Also be aware that Hunter's Mark is competitive with your offhand attack.

Alternatively, Rog5/Rgr5/Fgt2 is good too. I'm playing Rgr9/Rog3/Fgt3, and the good times roll.

[MrFahrenheit]

^seconded. Rog 4-5/Rgr 5 (hunter)/Ftr 2-3 (battlemaster or EK).

[Corran]

I'm playing a rogue in a game that will likely end around level 10-12. I'm currently level 4, and I don't plan to stay as rogue past level 5. Maybe level 6 if I really want that extra expertise.
There's only 3 PCs in our party, including my rogue, so I can't afford to do tricks like kiting or hiding each round, since I need to be a front-line fighter to a degree.
......
Stats are Str 8 / Dex 16 / Con 16 / Wis 14 / Int 8 / Cha 12. At level 4, I took the Observant feat to avoid the annoyance of stealth'ed dudes and missing traps/hidden doors. Arcane Trickster archetype.
I want to multiclass to increase my damage output and, if possible, to increase my AC.
......
EDIT: forgot mention that we are PHB-only for options, so those are my archetype limitations. Also, no Booming Blade or other useful melee cantrips.
First off, would you be allowed some minor retraining or is it out of the question?

Retraining or not aside, I would do the following:
I would take one more level of rogue, so take my rogue up to 5, in order to get uncanny dodge and help somewhat with the survivability (since you are expected to share the burden of frontlining). After that, I would proceed to take 3 levels in fighter (battlemaster). You can do it even with a strength of 8, as long as your dex is higher or equal to 13 (which it is).
First level of fighter (since you have started rogue), would give you second wind (which is not great, but not exacty bad either), and a fighting style: choose defense. You would also get medium armor and shield proficiency. Add everything together to raise your AC from your current value of 15 to 19. So AC 19 with just one level of fighter and some equipment modifications (wear breastplate, drop second weapon -the non-silver one- and equip a shield). Second wind helps a bit towards this direction, so does the 1 extra hp per fighter level.
Ofc, by boosting your AC that way, you hinder your dpr (from forgoing twf in favor of equiping a shield). You can always choose to continue twf and dont use a shield, then your AC would only increase from 15 to 17, and you would keep your dpr intact. But since you are an AT, if you use a familiar, you can keep your dpr intact and also carry a shield too. Alternatively, if allowed (and want) to retrain your feat, you could switch observant to shield master (expertise in athletics too in that case, even with an 8 str you will do well). This way you can essentially keep your dpr about the level it was and still carry a shield for bumping hard your AC.
Fighter 2 gives you action surge. An extra chance t landing that all important sneak attack damage of yours when you miss (or using the infamous ready action trick, for off turn sneak attack) is very beneficial. Even more so if you end up going up to level 7 rogue (AT) for some important spells.
Fighter 3: maneuvres. There is much debate and different people would suggest different maneuvres, but most people would agree (and I think so too, hence why I am suggesting it), that maneuvres can help a rogue a lot! My choice would be riposte (for off turn sneak attack), precision (to turn misses into hits) and feinting (to have an alternative way to get advantage -other than familiar if used, or SM shove if used), so that I can cancel potential disadvantage which would render me nearly useless in a fight).

After that, well, you could either go for more rogue levels or for fighter 5 (extra attack and a feat along the way), possibly even fighter 6 (for one more ASI/feat) and then add rogue.
Personally, I like aiming for fighter3(battlemaster)/rogue7(arcane trickster) to nab a good AC, blur, maneuvres (especially riposte), and the sentinel feat (probably taking it at fighter4/rogue7 while I am on my way to get the extra attack and after that continue with rogue until level 18).

[denthor]

First off, would you be allowed some minor retraining or is it out of the question?

Retraining or not aside, I would do the following:
I would take one more level of rogue, so take my rogue up to 5, in order to get uncanny dodge and help somewhat with the survivability (since you are expected to share the burden of frontlining). After that, I would proceed to take 3 levels in fighter (battlemaster). You can do it even with a strength of 8, as long as your dex is higher or equal to 13 (which it is).
First level of fighter (since you have started rogue), would give you second wind (which is not great, but not exacty bad either), and a fighting style: choose defense. You would also get medium armor and shield proficiency. Add everything together to raise your AC from your current value of 15 to 19. So AC 19 with just one level of fighter and some equipment modifications (wear breastplate, drop second weapon -the non-silver one- and equip a shield). Second wind helps a bit towards this direction, so does the 1 extra hp per fighter level.
Ofc, by boosting your AC that way, you hinder your dpr (from forgoing twf in favor of equiping a shield). You can always choose to continue twf and dont use a shield, then your AC would only increase from 15 to 17, and you would keep your dpr intact. But since you are an AT, if you use a familiar, you can keep your dpr intact and also carry a shield too. Alternatively, if allowed (and want) to retrain your feat, you could switch observant to shield master (expertise in athletics too in that case, even with an 8 str you will do well). This way you can essentially keep your dpr about the level it was and still carry a shield for bumping hard your AC.
Fighter 2 gives you action surge. An extra chance t landing that all important sneak attack damage of yours when you miss (or using the infamous ready action trick, for off turn sneak attack) is very beneficial. Even more so if you end up going up to level 7 rogue (AT) for some important spells.
Fighter 3: maneuvres. There is much debate and different people would suggest different maneuvres, but most people would agree (and I think so too, hence why I am suggesting it), that maneuvres can help a rogue a lot! My choice would be riposte (for off turn sneak attack), precision (to turn misses into hits) and feinting (to have an alternative way to get advantage -other than familiar if used, or SM shove if used), so that I can cancel potential disadvantage which would render me nearly useless in a fight).

After that, well, you could either go for more rogue levels or for fighter 5 (extra attack and a feat along the way), possibly even fighter 6 (for one more ASI/feat) and then add rogue.
Personally, I like aiming for fighter3(battlemaster)/rogue7(arcane trickster) to nab a good AC, blur, maneuvres (especially riposte), and the sentinel feat (probably taking it at fighter4/rogue7 while I am on my way to get the extra attack and after that continue with rogue until level 18).

I will admit I do not play 5E but do they not have weight limitations to carry equipment (rope, armor,shield spending money) all slow you down correct?

He wants to increase damage isn't an 8 strength negative stat for damage on each blow?

I can see a 3rd level cleric casting bull strength to take it from -1 to +1 8 strength to12 strength for a short time of battle.

[smcmike]

I will admit I do not play 5E but do they not have weight limitations to carry equipment (rope, armor,shield spending money) all slow you down correct?

He wants to increase damage isn't an 8 strength negative stat for damage on each blow?

I can see a 3rd level cleric casting bull strength to take it from -1 to +1 8 strength to12 strength for a short time of battle.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you don't play 5e, why are you giving 5e build advice?

In 5e, damage from finesse weapons is modified by the same stat that is used for attacking. In this case, it's all keyed off dexterity.

Also, that isn't what Bull's Strength does in 5e.

[Citan]

I'm playing a rogue in a game that will likely end around level 10-12. I'm currently level 4, and I don't plan to stay as rogue past level 5. Maybe level 6 if I really want that extra expertise.
There's only 3 PCs in our party, including my rogue, so I can't afford to do tricks like kiting or hiding each round, since I need to be a front-line fighter to a degree. The others are a War cleric (rather tanky/slashy) and a warlock (back-line Eldritch Blaster). I realize rogue may not have been the best choice, but that's what I've got.

Stats are Str 8 / Dex 16 / Con 16 / Wis 14 / Int 8 / Cha 12. At level 4, I took the Observant feat to avoid the annoyance of stealth'ed dudes and missing traps/hidden doors. Arcane Trickster archetype.
I want to multiclass to increase my damage output and, if possible, to increase my AC. I'm currently dual wielding shortswords (one +1, and one silvered). I have a magic staff I'm attuned to that gives +1 AC and lets me keep Mage Armor active 24/7 (I think it's called the Staff of Defense, from some module).
I probably won't use a shield so I can keep dual wielding. Also, medium armor doesn't seem like it's really boost my AC, especially if I get +2 Dex from my next ability score improvement.

Well, since you are already a Rogue, considering your stats, the obvious choices would be...

Eldricht Knight 6: not my favored because you would only see the benefits very late, but solid in the end (Fighting Style + Action Surge + Extra Attack + a few extra spells and slots).

Hunter Ranger 3-5: obvious good choice: you get a Fighting Style, Hunter's Mark and 1-2 more attacks per turn (Horde Breaker, Extra Attack), so more chances to deal Hunter's extra damage and more importantly Sneak Attack. You can grab Pass Without Trace in the end.

And my two favorite: Druid 5 / Cleric 5

Cleric 5 is obviously for spells: you can immediately Bless or Shield of Faith yourself, depending on your needs. You can also cast Healing Words (sure, there IS already a Cleric, but if HE gets downed, you'd be embarrassed) and get Sacred Flame as an alternative against high AC targets. Later, you get Spirit Guardians.
Trickery Domain is good because of spells (Mirror image notably) and Pass WIthout Trace (so you help your whole party go Stealth).
Beyond that though, your friend may have the feeling you are tiptoeing. Especially if he uses this kind of tactics already (although 2 people with Spirit Guardians active could make a damn good wall).
Pick this if you want to emphasize self-defense (Shield of Faith + Mirror Image).
EDIT: missed the bit about limited deity choice. Then, probably Knowledge would be my preferred, because of a 3-man party: you will be the one that completes all. :=)

Land Druid 5 is another great option, if less obvious. Wild Shape can be used to help you scout or prepare an ambush. But the true value lies in spells. You complement greatly your Cleric, by bringing many mobility/utility spells that he nor Warlock have.
Coast (Mirror Image + Misty Step), Desert (Blur + Silence) and Grassland (Haste) can be great assets.
At level 3, you can cast Heat Metal, useful in many many situations. :)
At level 5, you can Conjure Animals, which you can use as a scout force, a strike force, or just as a living obstacle to cover your runaway (you cruel you).
Basically, you can multiply the party size when needed.
And you still get Pass Without Trace. :)
All that comes together with additional spell slots and 3 1st level slots recovery per long rest, all of which can be used with your Arcane Trickster spells (Shield, Magic Missile, Burning Hands?).
And since you are already not using armor, you don't care about non-metal limitation.

So... As you guessed, I would put my money primarily on (Coast) Land Druid. Second choice being Hunter Ranger if you primarily want to boost your melee damage (more attacks + Hunter's Mark), or Knowledge Cleric if you want to enhance defense (SoF) and later soft control (SG) while being the Jack-of-All-Trades. :)

[Specter]

In 5e carrying rules are much more light (pun intended). If you carry your weapons, armor and gold, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Laurefindel]

My vote goes to battlemaster fighter after going to rogue 5. Take feint (for free sneak) and riposte - if they hit you you half the damage, if they miss you hit back! Two weapon fighting style increases your damage output with that off-hand attack. Action surge is good with feint and sneak attack, especially since your second attack will come late.

Your low STR will keep your AC relatively low, but you should be able to carry a breast plate and keep sneaking around for AC 16. You could go to AC 18 and keep sneaking with the Medium Armor Master (name?) feat in half plate if you really want to.

[Hudsonian]

My vote is... Don't multi-class. Pick up your extra SA die and Uncanny dodge then continue to play the bait tank instead of the meatshield tank. Stay within range, but in a different direction than the warlock. Are you commonly outnumbered?

[fishdad]

Seems odd that you went the Arcane Trickster route with an intelligence of 8 but whatever.

Do not underestimate the Lore bard. Your CHA is only 12 (still better the 8) but a lot of bard spells are not dependent on spell DC's. Since your damage will always come from Sneak Attack, spells are not where the damage lies.

Cleric, more specifically the Light Cleric, will give you some good blasty spells and that is your highest spell casting stat. Wisdom is a great stat since it applies to a lot of important abilities, so using an ASI to make your Cleric rogue more powerful not a bad thing. I also think you get Medium Armor proficiency with Cleric.

Fighter may still be the best option. Just 2 levels does a world of good (as said in previous posts) Don't forget about Medium Armor master feat. I think it makes armor more viable to the dexterous character. And on that note

Staying Rogue may be the best overall. Full progression on the Sneak Attack damage and spell utility from Arcane Trickster are all good things. Again the Medium Armor Master Feat may be your answer to help with front-lining.

[smcmike]

Yeah, staying rogue is also a great choice. If you want to improve DPR, sneak attack does that. Defensive buffs from spells can keep you in the fight - mirror image, for instance, is nice with high dexterity and evasion.

[Citan]

Seems odd that you went the Arcane Trickster route with an intelligence of 8 but whatever.

Do not underestimate the Lore bard. Your CHA is only 12 (still better the 8) but a lot of bard spells are not dependent on spell DC's. Since your damage will always come from Sneak Attack, spells are not where the damage lies.

Cleric, more specifically the Light Cleric, will give you some good blasty spells and that is your highest spell casting stat. Wisdom is a great stat since it applies to a lot of important abilities, so using an ASI to make your Cleric rogue more powerful not a bad thing. I also think you get Medium Armor proficiency with Cleric.

Fighter may still be the best option. Just 2 levels does a world of good (as said in previous posts) Don't forget about Medium Armor master feat. I think it makes armor more viable to the dexterous character. And on that note

Staying Rogue may be the best overall. Full progression on the Sneak Attack damage and spell utility from Arcane Trickster are all good things. Again the Medium Armor Master Feat may be your answer to help with front-lining.
A few minor problems with your suggestions.

1) Lore Bard is impossible, since requires 13 CHA to multiclass.

2) Light Cleric is not a great choice: while you could certainly hit some things with a Fireball, having only 14 WIS make it an unreliable spell for the few 3rd level slot OP would get. More generally, offensive spells are not its best uses, except for long duration/offensive spells such as Spirit Guardians.

3) OP is relying on a staff giving Mage Armor +1AC so won't be getting any help from Medium Armor or Medium Armor Master.

4) Fighter 2 brings very little actually. +2 (Dueling) is nice generally but lackluster for a Rogue, Defense would need an armor (barred per OP), Protection a shield (barred per OP), meaning Archery (for fallback) or Two-Weapon Fighting Style (the best one). Which are both atteignable with Ranger 2. Second Wind will be equal to a Cure Wounds, and Action Surge is ONE additional attack per short rest when Ranger brings Hunter's Mark (also usable with AT slots).

So Ranger beats him hands down. For 3 levels, Battlemaster brings a few good manoeuvers, but 4/short rest. Hunter brings either extra damage per turn or additional attack (complex to trigger for TWF. Would be much better on ranged), but also additional spell.
At 4 and 5 levels, Ranger beast Fighter because brings same benefit, but also spell and slot.
Only lvl 6 makes a difference. ASI is much better than Natural Enemy improvement. But then again, Ranger brings another spellcaster level and spell known.

Also, for only three levels in Trickster Cleric or Coast Druid, you get Mirror Image which is a non-concentration defense buff relying on DEX. :) You also get many more spell slots to use Shield with, or Bless/SoF/etc.
If OP had not been Arcane Trickster, more options would have been available.
For Arcane Trickster, getting more spells and spell slots seems the easiest way to go.

[JellyPooga]

The best multiclass for Rogue is more Rogue. They're surprisingly Tankish with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and more Sneak Attack damage means you remain a threat, especially if the monster provokes an OA. Grab Sentinel to really accentuate your Tank role.

Arcane Trickster is perfect for a tank Rogue; Mirror Image and Blur make you nigh untouchable and don't require a good Int, not to mention the greater utility you get with Mage Hand and other spells.

[Arkhios]

Didn't read other's posts, but here's my suggestion.

Go cleric, but forget that heavy armor. Choose Trickery domain for both flavor and added sneak attack opportunities due to your illusory duplicate being your best ally ever! (It's good for various other reasons too, such as casting spells with a range of touch originating from the duplicate instead yourself - what about 30 feet range for Cure Wounds for example!?)

If you don't plan to increase dexterity beyond 16 (honestly, min/max aside you don't really, really need dex 20 to hit often), you could take Medium Armor Master feat, wear half plate, enjoy an AC equal to wearing plate AND keep sneaking like a pro - especially if you have expertise in stealth.

[djreynolds]

The best multiclass for Rogue is more Rogue. They're surprisingly Tankish with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and more Sneak Attack damage means you remain a threat, especially if the monster provokes an OA. Grab Sentinel to really accentuate your Tank role.

Arcane Trickster is perfect for a tank Rogue; Mirror Image and Blur make you nigh untouchable and don't require a good Int, not to mention the greater utility you get with Mage Hand and other spells.

I agree stay rogue.... and get another party member. Hire an NPC, or whatever have your spouse, special lady/guy, or kids or your neighbor play a fighter or barbarian.

Every level out of rogue is 1d6 less on your SA.

[Citan]

The best multiclass for Rogue is more Rogue. They're surprisingly Tankish with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and more Sneak Attack damage means you remain a threat, especially if the monster provokes an OA. Grab Sentinel to really accentuate your Tank role.

Arcane Trickster is perfect for a tank Rogue; Mirror Image and Blur make you nigh untouchable and don't require a good Int, not to mention the greater utility you get with Mage Hand and other spells.

Hmm, forgot that 2nd lvl spells arrived at 7th level, I thought it was later for some reason. So whether OP goes straight Rogue 7 as the fastest for Mirror Image, or Rogue 5+Cleric/Druid3 for more options and spellcasting.
But frankly, as far as spellcasting go, multiclass is by far the best option.

So I'd rather say "stay Rogue because you want Expertise and Evasion +1d6 Sneak Attack" than "stay Rogue because you will get Mirror Image and Blur". :)

But for a 3-man team, I'd say Druid is still better overall because of what he brings to OP himself and the party as a whole, both in and outside of fight.

[JellyPooga]

So I'd rather say "stay Rogue because you want Expertise and Evasion +1d6 Sneak Attack" than "stay Rogue because you will get Mirror Image and Blur". :)

Multiclassing to a full-spellslinger would be a better option to accentuate spellcasting, sure, but my point was more that given he's an Arcane Trickster already, he can fill his desired role of sort-of-a-Tank without multiclassing at all.

With Int 8 and Cha 12, his only spellcasting multiclass options are Cleric and Druid; neither of which mesh particularly well with Rogue IMO, largely because so many of their features appear to be reliant on their own Class level (e.g. Arcane Trickster 5/Moon Druid 5 has the spellcasting of a 6th level caster, but instead of rocking Elemental and/or flying forms up to CR:3 in Wild Shape, as a straight Druid, he's still stuck using that same tired Brown Bear combat form).

[Citan]

Multiclassing to a full-spellslinger would be a better option to accentuate spellcasting, sure, but my point was more that given he's an Arcane Trickster already, he can fill his desired role of sort-of-a-Tank without multiclassing at all.

With Int 8 and Cha 12, his only spellcasting multiclass options are Cleric and Druid; neither of which mesh particularly well with Rogue IMO, largely because so many of their features appear to be reliant on their own Class level (e.g. Arcane Trickster 5/Moon Druid 5 has the spellcasting of a 6th level caster, but instead of rocking Elemental and/or flying forms up to CR:3 in Wild Shape, as a straight Druid, he's still stuck using that same tired Brown Bear combat form).
Well, that's exactly why I made a semi-extensive post above explaining just the offensive value of Druid, through soft control spells, mobility spells and directly offensive spells. So please report to it if you would like, and feel free to comment/ask questions later. :)
I didn't even speak about all the utility that neither Cleric nor Warlock brings that he would bring with Druid, between the Wild Shape options and the exclusive ritual spells. :)
And that's why I spoke about LAND Druid and not Moon Druid. :)
People should really stop being obsessed with Moon Druid especially when everyone agrees that it generally has little value as a dip. XD Whereas Land Druid brings exclusive spells and ever more spell slots.

Also, I tried to explain why Mirror Image was actually not a selling point of Arcane Trickster 7 because Druid and Cleric both can give it, along with more slots to actually use it in nearly every encounter of the day (Druid means you are 6th level caster, with additional 3 "level" slots, so either 1*1st+1*2nd level, or 3*1st level slots) and spells that can help himself and friends.
Since slots are "shared", it also means more occasions to save your hide with AT's Shield spell.

Whereas Evasion is indeed a very strong defensive feature for anyone who wishes to be resilient, and could justify (along with the 2 slots/day for Mirror Image or Blur and additional SA damage) staying in Rogue.

It's really a matter of choosing between...
- much better self-resilience and slight damage increase (Rogue)
- better damage overall (Ranger)
- better self-resilience and much greater versatility for party (Druid).
(Edit: well, tbh, there would also be a way to mix those options to get a nice combination, but too tedious to level imo).

[Corran]

Well, the op wanted to increase damage and AC, with emphasis on the damage part.

While I think, looking at the party set up (war cleric and warlock) that the emphasis should be put at AC (especially when the op said that he wont be dancing around with cunning action most of the time, but instead sticking to the front line), I would say that the most consistent way to increase his damage would be to continue with his rogue progression, for extra sneak attack dice. That is because he wouldnt be able to profit reliably from spells increasing dpr (like from hunter's mark, by dipping in ranger), due to his poor con saves. Concentration would break too often, given his role and his con saves (no proficiency).

To increase AC, I think the most efficient way to do this, is not via spells, again, due to possible concentration issues. Blur would be dropped too often. Mirror image on the other hand does not require concentration, and would perhaps be the best choice regarding increasing AC via spellcasting, in the op's case. But the fact that the op will be playing as a frontliner most of the time , thus mirror image is running the risk of burning out too quickly, and the fact that it takes an action to use (meaning reduced dpr from not attacking and thus missing sneak attack opportunities), kind of puzzles me. It's not a bad spell, even in the op's case, it's just that I dont think it is the right spell in the case of someone who is sticking to the front lines of combat. Blur is usually better in such cases, but the op is lacking concentration to use it reliably. And as I said, everything that takes an action away from a rogue during combat, is hurting him significantly. The shield spell is very nice, and perhaps the op should get it as his non enchantment/illusion 1st level AT spell, but without expanding his spell slots via multiclassing (complicated choice due to concentration) it is going to be of very limited use, and thus of limited dependancy.

I think the best way to increase AC in this case, is through geting armor proficiencies and through modifying a bit the fighting style. 1 level of fighter is great for rogues who want to stick in melee. The op's AC shyrockets from 15 to 19 (a permanent +4, little worse than a permanent shield spell). Stacking shield spell castings on top of that is even better than casting shield on top of a 15 AC. But I would advice to still stay away from the shield spell, at least for the time being. You see, the drawback of increasing significantly your AC, comes from decreasing your dpr (since you are changing from twf to S&B). That can easily be fixed, by using a familiar, which aside from the danger of it dying, is better than twf (ie the advantage on one attack is better than twf). Sure, twf will always deal a bit more damage during the average encounter, but if you ever find yourself attacking with disadvantage (which is the bane of rogues), you will be glad for having a familiar than using an off hand attack from twf. Having advantage is important to rogues.

In short, my point is, if you want to focus on damage, probably stick to rogue (if you multiclass, beware of how spellcasting may be limited due to bad concentration -also, mind the action economy cost due to losing sneak attacks in order to cast spells -action surge kind of deals with that if you take a second level in fighter).
If you want to boost your defenses (and imo you should be looking at doing that, more so than damage), do not underestimate the importance of a permanent +4 AC that you can get by dipping jut 1 level of fighter.

[Citan]

Well, the op wanted to increase damage and AC, with emphasis on the damage part.
In short, my point is, if you want to focus on damage, probably stick to rogue (if you multiclass, beware of how spellcasting may be limited due to bad concentration -also, mind the action economy cost due to losing sneak attacks in order to cast spells -action surge kind of deals with that if you take a second level in fighter).
If you want to boost your defenses (and imo you should be looking at doing that, more so than damage), do not underestimate the importance of a permanent +4 AC that you can get by dipping jut 1 level of fighter.
I really don't understand how OP would gain 4 AC just by dipping Fighter.
Remember, he actually...
- Is dual-wielding.
- Bears a quarterstaff (which seems to provide benefit even when not wielded, strangely) that gives permanent Mage Armor and stacks +1 AC on top. With DEX 16, he is already AC 17.

Also, beyond that, if you were hinting that he could wear heavy armor, then that seems a VERY BAD choice. Because with his STR, he will lose 10 feet. So either he uses bonus action to dash (losing bonus action attack, so extra chance to land SA) or he is very limited in movement, meaning he increases chances of being overwhelmed. If he gets surrounded, no defensive feature will prevent his demise.

On the point of concentration, you are right, he has more chances to lose it than others because no proficient and in melee. Still, there are many great Druid spells that can help in or out or combat, that are not concentration. And others can be played right with a bit of cunning.
And Blur + Shield should avoid most of the risk of losing concentration when you just really want to tank.
As for the fact that most spells use your action, you are right, that's tough. But that's the point of spells after all, it's all a matter of opportunity cost.
At "worst", since Cleric probably casts Bless as a basis anyways, he could pick Warcaster feat instead of bumping DEX (although this would be viable only for someone who really uses concentration spells on a regular basis. Blur only would not be worth the feat).

On the point of Shield, I'm sorry but it's a moot point.
First because OP has so bad an INT that only utility/defense spells are decent choices anyways.
Second, because expanding options is never a bad thing. Sure, using Shield uses your reaction, so you cannot get any opportunity attack even if the right trigger happens. But, what about avoiding with this Shield an attack that would have otherwise put you down hard on HP? Shield affects all attacks before the start of your next turn, not only one. This can very well make the difference between dead or alive when your next turn comes. If you are down, we agree that your DPR drops significantly right?
And dipping in a caster precisely expand the uses of spells, Shield included by a very fair amount, so you actually have much more flexibility in fight management than as a plain Rogue, or stick with your classic tactic and use it every encounter.

You can also heal in-combat (Healing Words) meaning a safeguard in case the Cleric cannot heal for any reason, Enhance Ability for any situations when you really want to success, Heat Metal to disarm/harm (no save on first round), Plant Growth, Fog Cloud, Wind Wall or Spike Growth to prepare terrain or hamper enemy movement (although those last are concentration indeed ;)), Darkvision, and Conjure Animals which can multiply your damage output effectively.

As a reminder of the last one, you could conjure a pack of eight Wolfs with. They effectively prevent you or your pals to be surrounded, give advantage to each other for weapon attacks, so you can either make two of them guard you while you go in melee with them, with better chance of Sneak Attack, or sit back and switch to ranged attacks to ensure your concentration is not broken. Each Wolf deals 7 damage and get a free prone effect on STR 11 DC. With advantage, you can easily consider that at least half of them succeed worst case. And if the targets fall prone, it will have to spend speed to get up or be at disadvantage on all its own attacks :)
So, with one spell, which you exploit in an offensive way, you...
- Increase your damage output (because wolves are "yours"), from 32 up to 64 per turn.
- Give better damage to your friend Cleric and yourself (prone target). Dealbreaker for Warlock though so have to be played smartly, unless he goes in and use Shocking Grasp.
- Provide THP and AC to you and your friends (because Wolfs can be used as meat shield if need be).
Seems like a pretty good use of one of the few 3rd level spells you would get. ;)
Although I admit I took an emblematic example, YMMV depending on how DM rules the conjuration itself (you choose? he chooses depending on landscape? he rolls?), but most beasts have something neat to provide.

There is also Wild Shape, which can help with just scounting (unless I misunderstand, you stack your features with the features of the form, so taking a Spider will give you +4 to Stealth roll in addition to your DEX and proficiency bonus. Also, you don't necessarily need to hide depending on the place you roam in, after all you are just an inoffensive spider).
You could also design some crafty traps by casting a spell, then Hiding then WildShaping to make enemies lose track of you. But that is too much dependant on DM behaviour/ruling to be considered in theorycraft (was thinking of creatures such as Orcs with limited intelligence, who would not expect a human in arms transforming into a mouse, so they would continue looking for a humanoid. I would accept that ;)). :)

Don't forget that this is a 3-man team. Expanding your options in several roles in and out of fight means your team as a whole gets that many more chances to have the right tool for the right situation.
I would have said differently for a 5-man team obviously.

[Corran]

I really don't understand how OP would gain 4 AC just by dipping Fighter.
Remember, he actually...
- Is dual-wielding.
- Bears a quarterstaff (which seems to provide benefit even when not wielded, strangely) that gives permanent Mage Armor and stacks +1 AC on top. With DEX 16, he is already AC 17.
Completely missed the bolded part then. I was thiking that his AC was 15, and I was suggesting to him to take a fighter dip so that with breastplate and a shield (thus dropping the second weapon), so that his AC would raise to 19. So that's how I calculated the +4. So that is why I thought so highly of the fighter dip. My bad, missed critical info in the op.


On the point of Shield, I'm sorry but it's a moot point.
Hypothetically, if the op didnt have the quarterstaff and the mage armor plus that other +1 bonus to AC, then the fighter dip would raise his AC from 15 to 19, at the cost of dpr (dropping twf and getting a shield). The familiar would make up for this, but getting the familiar would mean not getting shield. So on one hand I would have 15 AC (with occasional boosts from casting shield) and dpr with twf (reliable), and on the other hand I would have AC 19 and similar dpr due to the advantage from the familiar (although unreliable since the familiar can be killed). From the two hypotheticals I prefered the second, seems better overall. But as I said, I based this on the wrong assumption that the op's AC is 15, while in fact it is 17 with that staff. So shield is ofc a good spell for him to have, it is just that under my wrong assumption (regarding the op's AC) I followed the above line of thinking and when I was faced with the dilemma familiar vs shield, I preferd familiar due to how I judged the comparison above (bolded part).
This ofc has little value to the op, I guess I am just selfishly explaining my line of thinking and where I took the wrong turn.


So, yeah, the fighter dip would be of less value since medium armor does not offer that much with that staff in play. And you make a good case about the druid. Expanding your role to provide cover to the healing department, becoming a better scout, generally adding options is very good as you said, when in a small party. Versatility = power, especially in that case. And the summons could really help, once he gets access to them. So what that in mind, the question would now become how to plan the level progression.

ps: I still have some issues regarding what impact a poor concentration check would have, but then again, it is not like I have checked extensively the non concentration options of a druid.

[JeenLeen]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Druid is seeming especially tantalizing, and earlier access to things like Pass without Trace is nice. Land Druid looks less cheesey than Moon, so I think my DM would be cool with it. It gives me about everything I wanted from Ranger except Hunter's Mark.
I am still considering Fighter, though, since Battlemaster looks useful.


I really don't understand how OP would gain 4 AC just by dipping Fighter.
Remember, he actually...
- Is dual-wielding.
- Bears a quarterstaff (which seems to provide benefit even when not wielded, strangely) that gives permanent Mage Armor and stacks +1 AC on top. With DEX 16, he is already AC 17.

My DM wasn't sure if the staff should give the +1 AC from having it on my person even if not wielded, but since it wasn't clear, he let me have the +1 AC. So, yeah, that's nice and I'm AC 17.
If I get shield proficiency, I might consider just dropping to one weapon and using a shield.

Also, DM houseruled that familiars cannot use Aid Another to grant advantage and/or count as a threat/distraction enough to unlock sneak attack. I had already asked to use the warlock's familiar for that purpose and was told no.

I will stick to rogue until Rogue 5 for uncanny dodge. That 1/turn take half-damage is definitely a keeper. That's also why other abilities that use my reaction aren't too appealing to me; I reckon I'll use it most rounds.

[Citan]

ps: I still have some issues regarding what impact a poor concentration check would have, but then again, it is not like I have checked extensively the non concentration options of a druid.
Yeah, this one is a true one. The best spells (imo) to go on offensive or control are indeed concentration ones, so they would be risky if OP just waded into melee without other preparation.

I see a few combinations/tricks that could help (beyond just casting Mirror Image) in plain fight while keeping the risk of Concentration loss contained.
- Darkvision+Fog Cloud (drawbacks: may affect friends, fixed area): heavily obscured area so enemies blinded, not you.
- Heat Metal: no-save first damage, can be used to disarm an enemy. If cast on armor, enemy has disadvantage on attacks and checks. Great way to manage a single powerful enemy while risking little on concentration. If cast on the weapon, the weapon is unusable as long as spell is active (at least I'd rule out so, if creature picks up the weapon damage triggers again), so it's another way to disable an enemy (he can hit with his punchs though ^^).
- MoonBeam and Spike Growth: both concentration spells, so may be difficult to use properly while in melee. However, can be a great opener with OP playing ranged attacks, or used together with Cunning Action.
- Plant Growth: non-concentration! "Double difficult" terrain affecting a large area, great to channel or divide enemies. Drawback: DM may rule unusable elsewhere than plains/forests.

Or he can just pick up ranged style play when keeping a concentration is really needed. That's one perk of a Rogue. Or Wild Shape into the wild. That's one perk of a Druid. :)
Also, since good at stealth, some of these combination can be set up in advance to limit the action loss.


Thanks for the suggestions.

Druid is seeming especially tantalizing, and earlier access to things like Pass without Trace is nice. Land Druid looks less cheesey than Moon, so I think my DM would be cool with it. It gives me about everything I wanted from Ranger except Hunter's Mark.
I am still considering Fighter, though, since Battlemaster looks useful.

My DM wasn't sure if the staff should give the +1 AC from having it on my person even if not wielded, but since it wasn't clear, he let me have the +1 AC. So, yeah, that's nice and I'm AC 17.
If I get shield proficiency, I might consider just dropping to one weapon and using a shield.

I will stick to rogue until Rogue 5 for uncanny dodge. That 1/turn take half-damage is definitely a keeper. That's also why other abilities that use my reaction aren't too appealing to me; I reckon I'll use it most rounds.
I won't say anymore on the Fighter VS Druid because I think my opinion is clear now (especially with my examples on getting advantage through above combo or Conjure Wolfs). XD

On the quarterstaff point, my intuition is that your DM actually houseruled in a favorable way, but I really don't see how in RAW a magic weapon would provide you benefit without needing to wield it. Although I'm very unfamiliar with magic items, so maybe I'm totally wrong. :)

You're right on Uncanny Dodge. Having an at-will reaction ability is great, and it doesn't actually eat on Shield (or reverse): I'd rather say they complement each other.
When you have spell slots and you are pretty sure the +5 AC would make it a miss, or you are going to sustain a heavy load of attacks until your next turn, Shield will be great.
When you are out of spell slots or you know you will be hit whatever happens (ex DM announces a crit), Uncanny Dodge will save your hide.