Alternative "instruments" for a bard, a question

[malachi]

I'm making a bard, planning on going Lore. I do not like the feel of a lute-playing, singing bard. My character is something of a gruff spy (unassuming appearance of a not-quite middle aged man, rather than a suave/sexy james bond).
I'm thinking of taking "Oratory", "Writing", and something else as my 3 proficient instruments. Any suggestions for what that 3rd "instrument" could be? Are there any concerns about doing this that I'm not thinking about?

Additionally, I'm iffy on the performance skill. Does proficiency in Performance help if I am using an instrument (or "instrument") that I am already proficient with?

Thanks for the help!

[SharkForce]

performance and musical instrument proficiency is kinda weird. either one lets you use your proficiency bonus on checks. if it matters that you need to distinguish what it means, tool proficiency is technical skill while performance basically means you can be entertaining with it regardless of your skill... but for the most part that doesn't come up in play unless your DM decides to make it happen.

basically, the tool proficiencies only matter for certain specific occasions mechanically. i believe there are a few magical musical items that require proficiency in the instrument to use them properly. apart from that, performance will pretty much cover your needs just fine. i wouldn't expect any major problems arising from your plan.

for the third "instrument", i would say something that lets you produce reasonably accurate pictures (drawing, for example) if your DM is comfortable with it. makes sense for a spy in a time where cameras don't exist, at any rate.

[Aett_Thorn]

See if your DM will let you take a disguise kit as a proficiency instead of an instrument. If not, maybe you could take a "codebreaking" proficiency, since that would fit a spy.

Or just take the bagpipes, so that you can celebrate your spying victories in style.

[JellyPooga]

As a GM, I'd allow any of the Artisans Tools or Gaming Sets as an alternative to a Musical Instrument in this particular case. I'd be loathe to allow other tools, such as the Forgery Kit, Disguise Kit or Thieves Tools as their remit goes somewhat beyond the scope of Musical Instruments. I might allow a 2:1 swap on non-Artisan/Gaming/Instrument tools (i.e. you'd only get 2 proficiencies from the Bard Class; 1 Instrument, Gaming Set or Artisan Tool and 1 unlimited tool proficiency of your choice).

Oratory isn't really a tool and I'd cover its use with Performance only. The closest tool I can imagine for oratory would be a Disguise Kit for actors, but even that's a bit of a stretch.

Writing is covered by the Calligraphers Supplies (under Artisans Tools).

[Mad Puppy]

Your Character sounds like he needs a Harmonica

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAyxQ77SMM

[DwarvenGM]

One of my players plays a half orc bard and one of his proficiencies is "Screams of his foes" He claims it's similar to drums with his club as his drumstick.

It's goofy but it is fun in our game I've let him make rolls to force involuntary yelps or screams with this proficiency and while it was never extremely useful it did help scare a group of bandits when their boss was being beaten and screaming about it.

[malachi]

performance and musical instrument proficiency is kinda weird. either one lets you use your proficiency bonus on checks. if it matters that you need to distinguish what it means, tool proficiency is technical skill while performance basically means you can be entertaining with it regardless of your skill... but for the most part that doesn't come up in play unless your DM decides to make it happen.

basically, the tool proficiencies only matter for certain specific occasions mechanically. i believe there are a few magical musical items that require proficiency in the instrument to use them properly. apart from that, performance will pretty much cover your needs just fine. i wouldn't expect any major problems arising from your plan.

for the third "instrument", i would say something that lets you produce reasonably accurate pictures (drawing, for example) if your DM is comfortable with it. makes sense for a spy in a time where cameras don't exist, at any rate.

Thanks for the explanation; I'll need to talk to my DM and figure out how he figures it (because it may come off to him like I'm trying to finangle an extra skill).
Drawing seems like an ability my character'd have - sneak in, see what's going on, draw it, then sneak off and give the plans to someone who can figure out where to place explosives or something. But that is getting a little bit away from entertainment and into other forms of usefulness, so I'd need to run it by the DM to make sure he doesn't see it as trying to extract extra skills. Although, perhaps, my character was originally an artist, and was selected as spy material because he'd fit in at an artsy fartsy event, and when things worked out really well he got hired on for long-term work in that role.


See if your DM will let you take a disguise kit as a proficiency instead of an instrument. If not, maybe you could take a "codebreaking" proficiency, since that would fit a spy.

Or just take the bagpipes, so that you can celebrate your spying victories in style.

Drawing felt like it could be pushing the line a little in terms of what it gives me, and Disguise kit would definitely go past what I'd be comfortable asking for. Possibly codebreaking as well.
If I wanted my character to be flamboyant then yes, bagpipes would be awesome. Although with oratory/writing, who's to say that I don't compose an epic (on the scale of the Illiad and Odyssey) after each of my triumphs (changing names and descriptions to protect my identity, of course).

As far as the disguise kit goes, I was considering trading my background's (Criminal, flavored as the suggested Spy) proficiency with Thieves' tools to proficiency in a Disguise kit, but that's mostly tangential to this conversation.


As a GM, I'd allow any of the Artisans Tools or Gaming Sets as an alternative to a Musical Instrument in this particular case. I'd be loathe to allow other tools, such as the Forgery Kit, Disguise Kit or Thieves Tools as their remit goes somewhat beyond the scope of Musical Instruments. I might allow a 2:1 swap on non-Artisan/Gaming/Instrument tools (i.e. you'd only get 2 proficiencies from the Bard Class; 1 Instrument, Gaming Set or Artisan Tool and 1 unlimited tool proficiency of your choice).

Oratory isn't really a tool and I'd cover its use with Performance only. The closest tool I can imagine for oratory would be a Disguise Kit for actors, but even that's a bit of a stretch.

Writing is covered by the Calligraphers Supplies (under Artisans Tools).

I agree with wanting to limit additions of the tools, since they give capabilities that seem 'more useful' than what an instrument is meant for. (additionally, being proficient in 3 instruments is rarely going to be better than being proficient in 2, which is itself only occasionally better than being proficient in 1, while any additional tool proficiencies are going to be very useful)

Is it strictly necessary / important for the musical instruments to be literal tools?


Your Character sounds like he needs a Harmonica

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAyxQ77SMM

I like it, but not for my guy.


One of my players plays a half orc bard and one of his proficiencies is "Screams of his foes" He claims it's similar to drums with his club as his drumstick.

It's goofy but it is fun in our game I've let him make rolls to force involuntary yelps or screams with this proficiency and while it was never extremely useful it did help scare a group of bandits when their boss was being beaten and screaming about it.

So what you're saying is I should have proficiencies in "My voice (spoken)", "My voice (written)", and "Everyone else's voice (mind controlled)"? :D


Thanks for the help, ideas, and concerns, guys!
I'm going to try to talk to my DM about this in the next couple of days and figure out what works for my vision.

[NecroDancer]

Perhaps a piano, he uses the strings as a garrote

[caden_varn]

I also dislike the idea that all Bard's MUST be musical. I think that there is very little difference in capability between 3 musical instruments and 1, as you said earlier, so I would suggest asking to trade all three in for a single tool proficiency at most.

[Belac93]

Well, I think that any sort of performance, for entertainment or not, should be qualified as an 'instrument.' I once made a bard with proficiency in Dancing, Singing, and Comedy. And a Valor bard that had War Cries as one of his instruments.

[Joe the Rat]

Make sure you get a component pouch!
Oratory is a good (and supported) take for a nonmusical bard. I'm also a fan of Words of Power being behind some of the spell or class effects.

Additionally, I'm iffy on the performance skill. Does proficiency in Performance help if I am using an instrument (or "instrument") that I am already proficient with?

Best way to think about it is instrument proficiency makes you technically capable, Performance makes you entertaining - because of or in spite of your ability to play.

[malachi]

Talked to my DM, and he OKed the oratory/writing/drawing set of instruments (particularly since I've already been rollplaying monologues), and a component pouch as my spellcasting focus. He wasn't at all concerned about me trying to finagle extra oomph out of my character, which is great.

Thanks, guys!

[Xetheral]

Drawing seems like an ability my character'd have - sneak in, see what's going on, draw it, then sneak off and give the plans to someone who can figure out where to place explosives or something.

The Minor Illusion cantrip is perfect for this: you can make instant 3-D dioramas. Works even better with the Keen Mind feat.

[SharkForce]

The Minor Illusion cantrip is perfect for this: you can make instant 3-D dioramas. Works even better with the Keen Mind feat.

that's great when you're there. not so useful when you're trying to hand someone a report to take to someone else.

[Socratov]

As a GM, I'd allow any of the Artisans Tools or Gaming Sets as an alternative to a Musical Instrument in this particular case. I'd be loathe to allow other tools, such as the Forgery Kit, Disguise Kit or Thieves Tools as their remit goes somewhat beyond the scope of Musical Instruments. I might allow a 2:1 swap on non-Artisan/Gaming/Instrument tools (i.e. you'd only get 2 proficiencies from the Bard Class; 1 Instrument, Gaming Set or Artisan Tool and 1 unlimited tool proficiency of your choice).

Oratory isn't really a tool and I'd cover its use with Performance only. The closest tool I can imagine for oratory would be a Disguise Kit for actors, but even that's a bit of a stretch.

Writing is covered by the Calligraphers Supplies (under Artisans Tools).

Well, considering that the bardic music instrument can be a potential enabler of casting magic (as an instrument may be used as an arcane focus) I find that allowing it to swap for thieves tools, forgery kit, or disguise kit (for the last one, perform acting/clowning anyone?) would be equivalent as it eliminates the option for an arcane focus for bards. Especially considering that a focus is generally more expensive then an instrument so if lost an instrument is easily replaced.

As for artforms, I would not call writing a performance art. Sure writing is a great way to convey artforms like poetry, prose or scriptwriting, but the writing itself is rarely a performance art, especially considering the fact that the actual physical result of said writing lingers. Just like I would not consider painting a performance art in general. the general assumption I make here is that for a bardic performance to qualify as a bardic performance the performance must stay central to the artform, not the result. If you pick a performance that leaves a physical long-term result then that's fine, as long as the performance matters more then the result. for example: a hibachi chef's performance leaves a physical result (i.e. cooked food that looks tasty), however, the fact that he does tricks during the making of it enrich the experience past a point where the performance starts to matter more then the food that's been cooked.

Speaking of oratory, a soapbox to stand on, a lecturn to stand behind or speakers cone would be things I would consider an oratory 'instrument'.