My ninja build is about to croak...

[LoyalPaladin]

Literally, not figuratively. I'm trying to build a ninja and have had a lifelong (D&D lifelong...) dream of playing a frog ninja. After some extensive research, I think I've uncovered all the frog races I can (leaving out slaad), but I'm having some trouble with them! I'll list my problems below.

Anthropomorphic Toad (SS)
This an easy creature to find stats for, but its benefits are dwarfed by its drawbacks! +6 wisdom? Awesome! But then you get 5ft land speed, -4 strength, -2 dex, and -2 charisma?

Bullywug (MoF, page 25)
This one (and the Siv) I can't find stats for as a character. They're tied for the bottom of my list of frog creatures to use (with the anthropomorphic toad). At least they have a great name. I'd almost play one just to announce I was a bullywug to my table.

Grippi (DMZ #324, page 84)
This one took me a long time to find. But I think its at the top of my list, just for the sake of it being the easiest option. It gets a bunch of benefits, which are all pretty decent and their aesthetic is the best out of all the frogs. The only problem is that they're from Dragon Magazine, which is usually frowned upon.

Siv (MoF, page 78)
Unfotunately, like the bullywug, I can't find stats for this one. But their racial ability "Water Walking" is really great, especially if you're going to be a frog ninja.

I'll probably convert this thread into a build thread once I've got a race selected. I'm aiming for a frog ninja that uses a big shuriken as a melee weapon and occasionally throws it to pick off a fleeing combatant. I'd also like to be able to overcome most physical hurdles, as I would be a stealthy rogue/scout. (Does a climb speed let you climb on the ceiling?)

You can only imagine how excited I was when they released greninja.

[AvatarVecna]

There's a Giant Frog creature in "Return To The Temple Of Elemental Evil" which might be compatible with Anthropomorphic and/or Awaken. Not sure how helpful that is, but figured I'd mention it just in case.

[Red Fel]

Literally, not figuratively. I'm trying to build a ninja and have had a lifelong (D&D lifelong...) dream of playing a frog ninja. After some extensive research, I think I've uncovered all the frog races I can (leaving out slaad), but I'm having some trouble with them! I'll list my problems below.

You've left out the Slaad, but what about the Neraph (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2)? Neraphim, like Slaad, are Chaotic-something Outsiders. Of note, they have no RHD and LA +0, which makes them quite playable (other than the whole Outsider thing).

Notably, and perfectly suited to your needs, they have a few key racial abilities. Quoting from the page linked above:


Neraph Camouflage (Ex): When charging an opponent or when using a thrown weapon, neraphim can use a technique known as motion camouflage (also called neraph camouflage by other races), which predatory insects use to trick prey into thinking they are stationary even though they are moving closer. The target creature can be fooled into believing that the charging neraph or the neraph's thrown weapon is in fact not moving closer, or moving closer only very slowly.

A neraph may make only one camouflage attack per enemy per encounter (once a foe sees the attack in action, the foe can discern it for what it is for the duration of that combat). Creatures that are subject to a neraph charge or who are targeted by a weapon thrown by a neraph may not apply their Dexterity bonuses to their Armor Class. All conditions that pertain when a foe cannot apply his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class also pertain to the neraph's attack (for instance, a sneak attack could also be made with this attack, if the neraph can make such an attack).

Leap (Ex): Neraphim are natural jumpers. They have a +5 racial bonus on Jump checks.

Weapon Familiarity: Neraphim may treat the annulat (introduced in Chapter 4: Equipment and Magic Items) as a martial weapon rather than an exotic weapon.
Neraphim make perfect ninja. When they charge or use thrown weapons, an enemy is deprived of his Dex bonus to AC. They can jump really quite well. And they treat the annulat as a martial weapon - the annulat, for what it's worth, is a 1d6 slashing thrown weapon, a little paper-thin hoop of metal, which reduces a target's cover bonus to AC (if any) by 2.

So, yeah. Why aren't you looking at these guys, exactly?


You can only imagine how excited I was when they released greninja.

Greninja is best Kalos starter.

http://pa1.narvii.com/6105/3de27e81cc824e75b5e58355fb99097757b25736_hq.gif

[dysprosium]

Both the bullywug and the siv are in the 3.5 update for the Players Guide to Faerun.

Long story short, they are both LA +1 races with no racial Hit Dice.

For the siv, the racial adjustments are +2 Dex, -2 Cha.
For the bullywug, the racial adjustments are +6 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha

And yes, these numbers would disagree with the "standard" way to get racial adjustments, but the 3.5 updated stat blocks states what the abilities were before racial adjustments.

The neraph as mentioned by Red Fel is also a good choice for the frog like character. Plus there are not too many +0 LA Outsiders either.

[LoyalPaladin]

There's a Giant Frog creature in "Return To The Temple Of Elemental Evil" which might be compatible with Anthropomorphic and/or Awaken. Not sure how helpful that is, but figured I'd mention it just in case.
I'll go look into that! Last I was informed, Awakened creatures aren't suitable for play, are they? Even though I totally abused that with my Thorgi (Dog of Thunder) build...


You've left out the Slaad, but what about the Neraph (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2)? Neraphim, like Slaad, are Chaotic-something Outsiders. Of note, they have no RHD and LA +0, which makes them quite playable (other than the whole Outsider thing).
Oh hey, Red. Long time no see.


Notably, and perfectly suited to your needs, they have a few key racial abilities. Quoting from the page linked above:

Neraphim make perfect ninja. When they charge or use thrown weapons, an enemy is deprived of his Dex bonus to AC. They can jump really quite well. And they treat the annulat as a martial weapon - the annulat, for what it's worth, is a 1d6 slashing thrown weapon, a little paper-thin hoop of metal, which reduces a target's cover bonus to AC (if any) by 2.
Those are pretty great, actually. They're medium, which is cool. I'm basically looking to stay in the medium or smaller field, leaning smaller. The table I'm looking to submit this to has a medium/low point-buy, so it would be nice if the Neraph had an ability enhancement. But the racial abilities make it easy to trigger sudden strike. I tend to avoid outsiders nowadays if they aren't native. Because for some reason they tend to become the subject of abuse at the tables I play at...


So, yeah. Why aren't you looking at these guys, exactly?
Because you hadn't told me about them yet!


Greninja is best Kalos starter.

http://pa1.narvii.com/6105/3de27e81cc824e75b5e58355fb99097757b25736_hq.gif
Yes, yes he is.


Both the bullywug and the siv are in the 3.5 update for the Players Guide to Faerun.

Long story short, they are both LA +1 races with no racial Hit Dice.

For the siv, the racial adjustments are +2 Dex, -2 Cha.
For the bullywug, the racial adjustments are +6 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha

And yes, these numbers would disagree with the "standard" way to get racial adjustments, but the 3.5 updated stat blocks states what the abilities were before racial adjustments.

The neraph as mentioned by Red Fel is also a good choice for the frog like character. Plus there are not too many +0 LA Outsiders either.
That's super helpful. Thanks, Dysprosium. I've got that book at home, so I'll pull it out when I get back. It's looking like the Bullywug is not for me. The Siv is decent though. Do they get the water walking ability?

[illyahr]

I hope you are using the Ninja Spy from Oriental Adventures. The Ninja from Complete Adventurer is actually kinda terrible. Most of its abilities are only useful while it's in combat, which completely defeats the purpose. Ninja Spy gets Thousand Faces like the Druid does. :smalltongue:

[LoyalPaladin]

I hope you are using the Ninja Spy from Oriental Adventures. The Ninja from Complete Adventurer is actually kinda terrible. Most of its abilities are only useful while it's in combat, which completely defeats the purpose. Ninja Spy gets Thousand Faces like the Druid does. :smalltongue:
I'm considering going 10/10. Or maybe a mix of Ninja/Ninja Spy/Master Thrower.

[Inevitability]

Greninja is best Kalos starter.

http://pa1.narvii.com/6105/3de27e81cc824e75b5e58355fb99097757b25736_hq.gif

[Insert on how not Greninja, but Froakie is the actual starter, with the former only being the evolution of the latter]

I agree, though.

[illyahr]

I'm considering going 10/10. Or maybe a mix of Ninja/Ninja Spy/Master Thrower.

Throw a level of Swordsage in there to pick up Shadow Hand techniques and you have something dangerous.:smallbiggrin:

[Draconium]

Throw a level of Swordsage in there to pick up Shadow Hand techniques and you have something dangerous.:smallbiggrin:

Then throw a couple of levels of Shadow Sun Ninja on top, and you get ALL THE NINJA!! :smalltongue:

[LoyalPaladin]

Throw a level of Swordsage in there to pick up Shadow Hand techniques and you have something dangerous.:smallbiggrin:

Then throw a couple of levels of Shadow Sun Ninja on top, and you get ALL THE NINJA!! :smalltongue:
On these build related notes. Is there any way to increase the throwing distance of a shuriken? Is there anyway for me to throw really big shuriken? What about a way for me to use really big shuriken as a melee weapon? Does it break? Answer my questions, mortals! :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

I'll go look into that! Last I was informed, Awakened creatures aren't suitable for play, are they?
They are not suitable, as they have no listed LA. However, where there's a will, there's a way:


Select any race you want, such as Human, with a listed LA (in this case 0).
Suffer an unfortunate case of polymorph any object or baleful polymorph. Your type changes to Animal. Your LA is still 0.
Seek out a druid's aid and receive an awaken spell. You are now an awakened animal. Awaken does not say anything about changing your LA, so it is still 0.


Along the way, you probably lose all your memories and abilities, so try and do this in your backstory.

A clever individual will realize that you can repeat this indefinitely to gain infinite HD and Charisma.

[illyahr]

On these build related notes. Is there any way to increase the throwing distance of a shuriken? Is there anyway for me to throw really big shuriken? What about a way for me to use really big shuriken as a melee weapon? Does it break? Answer my questions, mortals! :smallwink:

Far Shot lets you double the range of your thrown weapons. A Large shuriken only imposes a -2 penalty due to size or you could refluff a chakram. Both can be used as melee weapons and you only risk losing a shuriken if you use it as a projectile.

Get a +1 returning chakram and the Far Shot feat and you're golden. :smallsmile:

[LoyalPaladin]

They are not suitable, as they have no listed LA. However, where there's a will, there's a way:

Select any race you want, such as Human, with a listed LA (in this case 0).
Suffer an unfortunate case of polymorph any object or baleful polymorph. Your type changes to Animal. Your LA is still 0.
Seek out a druid's aid and receive an awaken spell. You are now an awakened animal. Awaken does not say anything about changing your LA, so it is still 0.

Along the way, you probably lose all your memories and abilities, so try and do this in your backstory.
You've armed me with a dangerous idea, Flickerdart. I will direct all thrown copies of printed 3.5 books meant for me, in your direction. Blackhawk got ToB thrown at me once upon a time.


Far Shot lets you double the range of your thrown weapons. A Large shuriken only imposes a -2 penalty due to size or you could refluff a chakram. Both can be used as melee weapons and you only risk losing a shuriken if you use it as a projectile.

Get a +1 returning chakram and the Far Shot feat and you're golden. :smallsmile:
Huh. I'll do that, I think. It's gonna be sizing too. Because there will be a day when I want to use a colossal shuriken.

[Flickerdart]

You've armed me with a dangerous idea, Flickerdart. I will direct all thrown copies of printed 3.5 books meant for me, in your direction. Blackhawk got ToB thrown at me once upon a time.
Good to know that Operation: Achieve Infinite Money Through Having Infinite DMGs Thrown At Me is proceeding as expected.

[LoyalPaladin]

Good to know that Operation: Achieve Infinite Money Through Having Infinite DMGs Thrown At Me is proceeding as expected.
Operation: A.I.M.T.H.I.D.T.A.M. is a go.

[Draconium]

Huh. I'll do that, I think. It's gonna be sizing too. Because there will be a day when I want to use a colossal shuriken.

Good luck throwing that thing. :smalleek:

Also, LP, if I end up wanting to play a ninja (by which I mean Swordsage) in my next game, I'm blaming you for putting the idea in my head.

[Calthropstu]

On these build related notes. Is there any way to increase the throwing distance of a shuriken? Is there anyway for me to throw really big shuriken? What about a way for me to use really big shuriken as a melee weapon? Does it break? Answer my questions, mortals! :smallwink:

Make a really big shuriken, put the returning property on it, and name your character Yuffie.

[illyahr]

Huh. I'll do that, I think. It's gonna be sizing too. Because there will be a day when I want to use a colossal shuriken.

6 +1 sizing returning chakram are now my go-to ninja attack. Get Quick Draw and TWF and it looks almost like a Cirque du Soleil dance. :smallbiggrin:

[LoyalPaladin]

Good luck throwing that thing. :smalleek:

Also, LP, if I end up wanting to play a ninja (by which I mean Swordsage) in my next game, I'm blaming you for putting the idea in my head.
Flicker just said "where there's a will, there's a way" and I'm going to make it happen.


Make a really big shuriken, put the returning property on it, and name your character Yuffie.
Right. Croakie. From Final Frogasy.


6 +1 sizing returning chakram are now my go-to ninja attack. Get Quick Draw and TWF and it looks almost like a Cirque du Soleil dance. :smallbiggrin:
Haha. That's a very "Illyahr" sounding build.

I'm usually a guy who's turn looks like "I hit it with my sword and yell 'I smite thee!'" So even a ninja will be quite more than usual. Granted I did play a pathfinder witch and a stalwart battle sorcerer.

[AvatarVecna]

Something that has to be noted about shuriken:


Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

The bolded parts here are important. Here's the next important thing:


Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Now, this is explicitly a general rule, so there's probably some ways around this...but if you're not using a RAW way around this, you'll need to use RAI. I personally like appealing to the DM; you should ask if your adamantine and/or heavily enchanted shuriken can just not be auto-destroyed like normal ammo, and your DM might say yes (which is awesome). If your DM says no, ask why; if they respond with something like "that gives shuriken the enchanting benefits of ammunition without the downsides of being non-recoverable", you can offer to have your shuriken be enchanted at normal weapon cost rather than ammunition cost, which should clear up the problem nicely. If your DM still says no, or gave a different reason for not giving you this little thing, you'll need to find a RAW way to keep your shuriken from shattering upon contact with your target.

[LoyalPaladin]

Now, this is explicitly a general rule, so there's probably some ways around this...but if you're not using a RAW way around this, you'll need to use RAI. I personally like appealing to the DM; you should ask if your adamantine and/or heavily enchanted shuriken can just not be auto-destroyed like normal ammo, and your DM might say yes (which is awesome). If your DM says no, ask why; if they respond with something like "that gives shuriken the enchanting benefits of ammunition without the downsides of being non-recoverable", you can offer to have your shuriken be enchanted at normal weapon cost rather than ammunition cost, which should clear up the problem nicely. If your DM still says no, or gave a different reason for not giving you this little thing, you'll need to find a RAW way to keep your shuriken from shattering upon contact with your target.
The bolded/italicized part would probably be fine with my DM, I'm sure. I'll make that case, because I betcha he'll say no to everything else.

[illyahr]

Then throw a couple of levels of Shadow Sun Ninja on top, and you get ALL THE NINJA!! :smalltongue:

Waitaminute, this build isn't possible. You need to be Good to be a Shadow Sun Ninja, but nongood to be a Ninja Spy. :smallfrown:


Haha. That's a very "Illyahr" sounding build.

I'm usually a guy who's turn looks like "I hit it with my sword and yell 'I smite thee!'" So even a ninja will be quite more than usual. Granted I did play a pathfinder witch and a stalwart battle sorcerer.

Put some ranks into Iaijutsu focus and throw one at every person in the enemy group. If you go first, they are all flat-footed until they go...if they go. :smallamused:

[Draconium]

Waitaminute, this build isn't possible. You need to be Good to be a Shadow Sun Ninja, but nongood to be a Ninja Spy. :smallfrown:

As someone unfamiliar with Ninja Spy, I didn't know that. Still would've been a funny build to consider, though.

[illyahr]

As someone unfamiliar with Ninja Spy, I didn't know that. Still would've been a funny build to consider, though.

Yeah, you need to be nonchaotic, nongood. What if someone failed the capstone of Shadow Sun Ninja and became a Ninja Spy after? Vampire Super-Ninja! :smallbiggrin:

[Draconium]

Yeah, you need to be nonchaotic, nongood. What if someone failed the capstone of Shadow Sun Ninja and became a Ninja Spy after? Vampire Super-Ninja! :smallbiggrin:

Except SSN's capstone does specifically state that if you become a vampire because of it, you also become an NPC. :smallfrown: Not very useful for players, but possibly intriguing for an enemy...

[LoyalPaladin]

Put some ranks into Iaijutsu focus and throw one at every person in the enemy group. If you go first, they are all flat-footed until they go...if they go. :smallamused:
One of our players got Iaijutsu Focus banned from all future tables.


Waitaminute, this build isn't possible. You need to be Good to be a Shadow Sun Ninja, but nongood to be a Ninja Spy. :smallfrown:

As someone unfamiliar with Ninja Spy, I didn't know that. Still would've been a funny build to consider, though.
I didn't realize this either...

[Red Fel]

[Insert on how not Greninja, but Froakie is the actual starter, with the former only being the evolution of the latter]

No, no, I know this. Chespin, Fennekin, and Greninja are the Kalos starters.

Froakie is just a disguise assumed by Greninja whilst it decides whether to murder those who would seek to command its power.


Make a really big shuriken, put the returning property on it, and name your character Yuffie.

Yuffie? Really? Emo-nin would like a word with you.

http://pa1.narvii.com/5722/07303df9d5ede01fc8ae5f49665c4d6b70262b00_hq.gif

[LoyalPaladin]

No, no, I know this. Chespin, Fennekin, and Greninja are the Kalos starters.

Froakie is just a disguise assumed by Greninja whilst it decides whether to murder those who would seek to command its power.
This is hilarious.


Yuffie? Really? Emo-nin would like a word with you.

http://pa1.narvii.com/5722/07303df9d5ede01fc8ae5f49665c4d6b70262b00_hq.gif
As much hate as it got, most of the non-filer fights were pretty entertaining in Naruto. Plus they have some of the coolest shuriken. Probably my favorite shuriken design in anime too.
http://i.imgur.com/oyknbbb.jpg?1

[illyahr]

Hey LP, how about a 3 level dip in Shadowcaster? By itself, it gives you darkvision 30ft, plus you get a series of 3/day spell-like abilities, some of which would be really helpful to a ninja character.

Bend Perspective lets you switch between two different points of view, Sight Eclipsed gives you HiPS, Steel Shadows gives you a +3 bonus to both Armor and Shield bonuses to AC, Widened Eyes gives you low-light vision.

[Zaydos]

What is all this talk about chakrams? I mean Xena was cool, but why use chakrams when you can use annulats.

What is an annulat you ask?

Well while chakram is an unupdated 3.0 exotic weapon which consists of a sharpened disc you can throw for 1d4 damage (x3 crit) and 30 ft range increment the annulat is a 3.5 exotic weapon which consists of a sharpened disc you can throw for 1d6 damage (19-20/x2 crit) and reduced cover bonuses to your target's AC with a 30 ft range increment which neraphs treat as a martial weapon.

It is actually the racial weapon of neraphs (neraphim?) meaning that they start out as bit of toad ninjas.

And Yuffie is better than Emo Nin.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hey LP, how about a 3 level dip in Shadowcaster? By itself, it gives you darkvision 30ft, plus you get a series of 3/day spell-like abilities, some of which would be really helpful to a ninja character.

Bend Perspective lets you switch between two different points of view, Sight Eclipsed gives you HiPS, Steel Shadows gives you a +3 bonus to both Armor and Shield bonuses to AC, Widened Eyes gives you low-light vision.
So like a Ninja/Shadowcaster/Master Thrower/Ninja Spy?


What is all this talk about chakrams? I mean Xena was cool, but why use chakrams when you can use annulats.

What is an annulat you ask?

Well while chakram is an unupdated 3.0 exotic weapon which consists of a sharpened disc you can throw for 1d4 damage (x3 crit) and 30 ft range increment the annulat is a 3.5 exotic weapon which consists of a sharpened disc you can throw for 1d6 damage (19-20/x2 crit) and reduced cover bonuses to your target's AC with a 30 ft range increment which neraphs treat as a martial weapon.

It is actually the racial weapon of neraphs (neraphim?) meaning that they start out as bit of toad ninjas.

And Yuffie is better than Emo Nin.
Zaydos! It's been a really long time since I've seen you around.

[illyahr]

So like a Ninja/Shadowcaster/Master Thrower/Ninja Spy?

Awwww yeaaaah!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/1e78f95f330fe0330699bac0b74af47b/tumblr_mslg5pNoww1r6pgwzo1_500.gif

[Calthropstu]

The bolded/italicized part would probably be fine with my DM, I'm sure. I'll make that case, because I betcha he'll say no to everything else.


Yeah, you need to be nonchaotic, nongood. What if someone failed the capstone of Shadow Sun Ninja and became a Ninja Spy after? Vampire Super-Ninja! :smallbiggrin:

If he starts as true neutral, then puts on a helm of opposite alignment this could work.

[dysprosium]

That's super helpful. Thanks, Dysprosium. I've got that book at home, so I'll pull it out when I get back. It's looking like the Bullywug is not for me. The Siv is decent though. Do they get the water walking ability?

I don't see why they wouldn't. That would probably help justify that +1 LA.

So I checked my Monsters of Faerun book and discovered that the racial adjustments I had come up with earlier would be applicable with what was listed in the book.

For the 3.5 update, they decided to give the humanoid monsters the standard array instead of the standard 10s and 11s. So from either source, the racial stats I came up with would be ok.

And for bullywugs, I agree that they would make poor ninja. Besides whenever I think of bullywugs I think of these guys:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vt749aV4Y7Q/TQwTsbk-5mI/AAAAAAAAFYo/QcFxxq-mjV8/s400/bullywugs.jpg

[Erit]

It is actually the racial weapon of neraphs (neraphim?) meaning that they start out as bit of toad ninjas.

And Yuffie is better than Emo Nin.

But Jirayah ero-sennin is superior to both.

[LoyalPaladin]

I don't see why they wouldn't. That would probably help justify that +1 LA.

So I checked my Monsters of Faerun book and discovered that the racial adjustments I had come up with earlier would be applicable with what was listed in the book.

For the 3.5 update, they decided to give the humanoid monsters the standard array instead of the standard 10s and 11s. So from either source, the racial stats I came up with would be ok.

And for bullywugs, I agree that they would make poor ninja. Besides whenever I think of bullywugs I think of these guys:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vt749aV4Y7Q/TQwTsbk-5mI/AAAAAAAAFYo/QcFxxq-mjV8/s400/bullywugs.jpg
I would like to tell you, that one of my fellow players is big into the whole "Barbarian go smash" archetype and has agreed to play a bullywug barb if I play my ninja of equal or lesser size.

[Zaydos]

Zaydos! It's been a really long time since I've seen you around.

I was gone for a while, been back for a bit. Would have contacted you the other day for mysterious reasons (permission based purposes), but idea fell through.


But Jirayah ero-sennin is superior to both.

Kakashi was my favorite Naruto character. Though really if I'm going for FF ninjas, well ok Yuffie was one of two FFVII characters I actually liked, but

http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/6e5ae68903cfd155b0c9310b34fee29e/http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m310/Rpmaster/rp%20stuff/4208772.jpg

Edge defines the FF ninja to me since he was my first.

[LoyalPaladin]

I was gone for a while, been back for a bit.
I see! I've been less active in the 3.5 forum and more secluded to play-by-post games lately. But I'm still around. Which reminds me, I need to update my play by posts. Been a busy summer for me and I'm hoping it dies down a bit...


Would have contacted you the other day for mysterious reasons (permission based purposes), but idea fell through.
For now and all future reference: I, LoyalPaladin, give Zaydos permission to craft any content in my likeness. So long as he sends me the finished product!*

*I am not liable for any IZ42's that are harmed in the crafting of said content.


Kakashi was my favorite Naruto character. Though really if I'm going for FF ninjas, well ok Yuffie was one of two FFVII characters I actually liked, but

http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/6e5ae68903cfd155b0c9310b34fee29e/http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m310/Rpmaster/rp%20stuff/4208772.jpg

Edge defines the FF ninja to me since he was my first.
I don't recognize him, actually. Which FF is he from?

[Extra Anchovies]

Psst! LP! I think we're waiting on you over in World of Salvus Alpha!

IMO, Neraphim are just frog wannabes. For maximum frogginess, Grippli are where it's at.


I'll probably convert this thread into a build thread once I've got a race selected. I'm aiming for a frog ninja that uses a big shuriken as a melee weapon and occasionally throws it to pick off a fleeing combatant. I'd also like to be able to overcome most physical hurdles, as I would be a stealthy rogue/scout.

You want ninjas? I got ninjas (http://i.imgur.com/11POn8O.png).

Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 pulls in 8d6 sneak attack, averages just shy of 6+Int skill points per level, and rocks 17th-level Wizard spellcasting by the end of the build. The wizard list has truckloads of wonderful abilities for infiltration and stealth. I can think of upwards of a dozen spells that are totally awesome for an infiltrator/assassin from among just the PHB 0- and 1st-level spells. You could also pick up some ranged touch spells for easy sneak attack, or even the Invisible Needle reserve feat (at-will ranged-touch force damage, woohoo!). What's spellcasting? Oh, just some magic words and gestures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuji-in). Spellbooks? Scrolls detailing your various ninja techniques, recorded for the apprentice you will someday take on. And there's nothing stopping you from shaping those magic missiles like shuriken :smallwink:

If you don't want something quite so high-powered, you could add in up to five or six more noncasting levels while still getting a Bard-ish spellcasting progression. Unseen Seer provides great skill access, full casting, and near-full sneak attack, so if you go the 6th-casting route it's probably best to take out the second Wizard level and all five Arcane Trickster levels, with the replacement class levels distributed throughout the build at your discretion. But don't be afraid of going full-caster after the Rogue levels! As long as you take some care not to step on your allies' toes, tricks like Etherealness, Mind Blank, and Phase Door would totally be up a ninja master's inscrutable sleeves.

If you'd rather stay away from good old caster dominance, I strongly recommend the Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). Its class features look just a touch sparse, but with 5th-level manifesting it gets a nice pile of tricks, and has an oblique leg up on the wizard approach due to its lack of verbal and somatic components.

You may want to ask your DM if you could apply the Kung Fu Genius feat (Dragon Compendium) to Ninja abilities; Intelligence makes much more sense for the secretive master infiltrator than Wisdom, and being able to nab Int to AC could make Rogue 2/Ninja 1 or even Ninja 3 a solid replacement for Rogue 3 at the start of the Wizard build.


(Does a climb speed let you climb on the ceiling?)

Nope. It doesn't even give you 100% on walls with a DC higher than zero, although the +8 racial bonus helps.


On these build related notes. Is there any way to increase the throwing distance of a shuriken?

Darts (up two die sizes, longer range increment). Distance weapon special ability (+50% total range increment, DMG). Far Shot feat (double range increment with thrown weapons, PHB)


Is there anyway for me to throw really big shuriken? What about a way for me to use really big shuriken as a melee weapon? Does it break? Answer my questions, mortals! :smallwink:

1. Darts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuriken#Bo_shuriken). Up two die sizes, longer range increment.
2. Daggers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunai). Up two die sizes, better critical range.
2a. If you want to use specifically shuriken in melee, you very much cannot. See PHB, p. 121: "A shuriken can’t be used as a melee weapon."
3. Irrelevant, see 2a.
4. I see you're trying to exclude undead like myself and and [Awesome, Evil, Lawful] outsiders like Red Fel. I see how it is :smallwink::smallamused:


I personally like appealing to the DM; you should ask if your adamantine and/or heavily enchanted shuriken can just not be auto-destroyed like normal ammo, and your DM might say yes (which is awesome).

Beware these words, for down the path of indestructible ammunition-enchanted shuriken lies much cheese (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0).

[khadgar567]

I see! I've been less active in the 3.5 forum and more secluded to play-by-post games lately. But I'm still around. Which reminds me, I need to update my play by posts. Been a busy summer for me and I'm hoping it dies down a bit...


For now and all future reference: I, LoyalPaladin, give Zaydos permission to craft any content in my likeness. So long as he sends me the finished product!*

*I am not liable for any IZ42's that are harmed in the crafting of said content.


I don't recognize him, actually. Which FF is he from?
Guesing from entirely from my arse he is from same game where green leotard chick or one or two games pior to them

[Zaydos]

For now and all future reference: I, LoyalPaladin, give Zaydos permission to craft any content in my likeness. So long as he sends me the finished product!*

*I am not liable for any IZ42's that are harmed in the crafting of said content.

Was not in your likeness, but a paragon class based on something you made, and this is tangential to the thread.


I don't recognize him, actually. Which FF is he from?

FF IV, so that is not the original game art, just where he's holding oversized shuriken.

Game art is closer to this

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/3/3d/FFRK_Edge_sprites.png/revision/latest?cb=20150621001412

Haven't played FFIII so I don't know how much personality the characters in it had. FFII I don't think had a ninja (I don't remember one, I just remember it being bad and the plot being straight from Star Wars). So to my knowledge Edge is the first FF Ninja with a personality, at the very least the first that's fixed into being a ninja.

[AvatarVecna]

Beware these words, for down the path of indestructible ammunition-enchanted shuriken lies much cheese (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0).

I am acutely aware. That is, in fact, why I suggested asking that question first, rather than the "can shuriken not count as ammunition" question; if your DM approves shuriken that are like ammo except they survive contact, you get to break out some serious "cheese", as far as non-mage cheese goes. Personally, I think non-mages deserve some love.

[Flickerdart]

Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 pulls in 8d6 sneak attack, averages just shy of 6+Int skill points per level, and rocks 17th-level Wizard spellcasting by the end of the build.

The issue with most such builds is that having 17th level wizard casting makes all your other class features sort of superfluous. Naruto ninja aside, ninjas tend not to be wizards.

Assassin, on the other hand, keeps the casting nice and focused on ninjaing. As does ranger, interestingly enough. Mystic Ranger without Sword of the Arcane Order makes for a very capable character.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Murloc from Warcraft the RPG?
Aren't they frog-like?
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/9/9e/MurlocRaneman.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20110308194809


Then throw a couple of levels of Shadow Sun Ninja on top, and you get ALL THE NINJA!! :smalltongue:For "ALL THE NINJA!!", there is also Ninja of the Crescent Moon (Sword and Fist)

[Calthropstu]

be a ninja and dress as a nun... you could be a nunja.

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Nunja_db3e4d_179200.jpg

edit: Just don't wield nunchucks on top of high buildings...

[LoyalPaladin]

Psst! LP! I think we're waiting on you over in World of Salvus Alpha!
I know, I know. I've just been really busy. D: I'll get a good post up tonight! Maybe even sooner!


IMO, Neraphim are just frog wannabes. For maximum frogginess, Grippli are where it's at.
With the new information from my friend playing the Bullywug, I think I'll definitely be taking the Grippli route!


You want ninjas? I got ninjas. (http://i.imgur.com/11POn8O.png)

Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 pulls in 8d6 sneak attack, averages just shy of 6+Int skill points per level, and rocks 17th-level Wizard spellcasting by the end of the build. The wizard list has truckloads of wonderful abilities for infiltration and stealth. I can think of upwards of a dozen spells that are totally awesome for an infiltrator/assassin from among just the PHB 0- and 1st-level spells. You could also pick up some ranged touch spells for easy sneak attack, or even the Invisible Needle reserve feat (at-will ranged-touch force damage, woohoo!). What's spellcasting? Oh, just some magic words and gestures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuji-in). Spellbooks? Scrolls detailing your various ninja techniques, recorded for the apprentice you will someday take on. And there's nothing stopping you from shaping those magic missiles like shuriken :smallwink:
I really really like this build. But it's like waaaaay beyond the op/power level that I'm looking at. I'm looking to keep up with, no dwarf, my soon to be amphibous companion who is probably a Barb 10 / Frenzied Berseker 10 at the most. I'd like to keep it to minimal spellcasting. I'm thinking maybe after my Grippli village was ransacked by orcs, I wandered all over and observed a ninja in training. Fascinated, I went and became his disciple. Something like that.

I do think I'll use the magic missile shuriken idea, though!


totally awesome
Please tell me you didn't do this by hand.


You may want to ask your DM if you could apply the Kung Fu Genius feat (Dragon Compendium) to Ninja abilities; Intelligence makes much more sense for the secretive master infiltrator than Wisdom, and being able to nab Int to AC could make Rogue 2/Ninja 1 or even Ninja 3 a solid replacement for Rogue 3 at the start of the Wizard build.
I will ask about that. But I am almost certain he'll say no.


Nope. It doesn't even give you 100% on walls with a DC higher than zero, although the +8 racial bonus helps.
Lame. Maybe after I lock my build down better I'll start asking about ninja items. Ninja tabi of water walking, for example.


1. Darts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuriken#Bo_shuriken). Up two die sizes, longer range increment.
2. Daggers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunai). Up two die sizes, better critical range.
2a. If you want to use specifically shuriken in melee, you very much cannot. See PHB, p. 121: "A shuriken can’t be used as a melee weapon."
3. Irrelevant, see 2a.
4. I see you're trying to exclude undead like myself and and [Awesome, Evil, Lawful] outsiders like Red Fel. I see how it is :smallwink::smallamused:
Maybe I'll go with unarmed strike or a ninja-to then... why aren't ninja proficient with the ninja-to!?


FF IV, so that is not the original game art, just where he's holding oversized shuriken.

Game art is closer to this

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/3/3d/FFRK_Edge_sprites.png/revision/latest?cb=20150621001412

Haven't played FFIII so I don't know how much personality the characters in it had. FFII I don't think had a ninja (I don't remember one, I just remember it being bad and the plot being straight from Star Wars). So to my knowledge Edge is the first FF Ninja with a personality, at the very least the first that's fixed into being a ninja.
Huh. I'll have to go back and play that, cuz I'm certain I've played it. I own it for sure... right?

[Calthropstu]

Maybe I'll go with unarmed strike or a ninja-to then... why aren't ninja proficient with the ninja-to

Because magic.

I have seriously wondered about this myself, it seems a very very silly thing.

[Zaydos]

Maybe I'll go with unarmed strike or a ninja-to then... why aren't ninja proficient with the ninja-to!?

Because despite being introduced in the same Dragon Magazine issue that updated OA, the ninja class completely ignores its existence. Also because ninja-to, as written, shouldn't have been a weapon especially not an exotic one. Specifically a ninja-to is a shortsword with a special scabbard. It is literally identical to a shortsword except that its scabbard can be used as a breathing tube, blowgun (simple weapon in OA), or club. So... see if your DM will let you buy a scabbard that doubles as a bluwgun and club. I am assuming ninjas are proficient in shortswords.

Edit: Or just buy a ninja-to, throw away the sword, and sheath your shortsword in its sheath and then use the sheath as a club or blowgun as needed.

[illyahr]

Lame. Maybe after I lock my build down better I'll start asking about ninja items. Ninja tabi of water walking, for example.

Ninja Spy can walk on water for short periods as long as he spends a standard action to concentrate.


Maybe I'll go with unarmed strike or a ninja-to then... why aren't ninja proficient with the ninja-to!?

Ninja Spy gets a limited Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat every few levels. Ninja-to is one of the weapons you can use it for.

List is: blowgun (I don't know why, is simple even in OA), chain, chijiriki, fukimi-bari, hand crossbow, kusari-gama, nekode, ninja-to, shikomi-zue, shuriken, spiked chain, or war fan

[LoyalPaladin]

Because despite being introduced in the same Dragon Magazine issue that updated OA, the ninja class completely ignores its existence. Also because ninja-to, as written, shouldn't have been a weapon especially not an exotic one. Specifically a ninja-to is a shortsword with a special scabbard. It is literally identical to a shortsword except that its scabbard can be used as a breathing tube, blowgun (simple weapon in OA), or club. So... see if your DM will let you buy a scabbard that doubles as a bluwgun and club. I am assuming ninjas are proficient in shortswords.

Edit: Or just buy a ninja-to, throw away the sword, and sheath your shortsword in its sheath and then use the sheath as a club or blowgun as needed.
Or say something to the effect of "Hey, <insert DM's name here>. Can I just pretend like I'm proficient with my weapon?" He'll probably say yes to that one.


Ninja Spy can walk on water for short periods as long as he spends a standard action to concentrate.

Ninja Spy gets a limited Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat every few levels. Ninja-to is one of the weapons you can use it for.

List is: blowgun (I don't know why, is simple even in OA), chain, chijiriki, fukimi-bari, hand crossbow, kusari-gama, nekode, ninja-to, shikomi-zue, shuriken, spiked chain, or war fan
Oh perfect then. I'd actually like to pick up some of those weapons.

[Extra Anchovies]

I know, I know. I've just been really busy. D: I'll get a good post up tonight! Maybe even sooner!

Excellent. Cassidy hungers for knowledge!


I really really like this build. But it's like waaaaay beyond the op/power level that I'm looking at. I'm looking to keep up with, no dwarf, my soon to be amphibous companion who is probably a Barb 10 / Frenzied Berseker 10 at the most. I'd like to keep it to minimal spellcasting. I'm thinking maybe after my Grippli village was ransacked by orcs, I wandered all over and observed a ninja in training. Fascinated, I went and became his disciple. Something like that.

Aww, man. There's so many cool tricks! Mirror Image shadow clones, Stinking Cloud smoke bombs... the list just goes on!

It's also very much worth noting that there's a reason the "thief" role is sometimes referred to as the "corpse", as that's what you'll often end up as, especially at high levels when more creatures are running around with a bevy of special senses, movement modes, immunities, and SLAs. This can be helped by bringing magic of your own to the table, which provides those same abilities plus counters to some of the above (flight beats tremorsense, for example). Keeping your spell selection fairly limited - which is as easy as not researching more spells than the 2 gained for free at each level - can go a long way towards curtailing your power. Here's a sample core-only spellbook at wizard level 17, assuming a starting Intelligence of 18.

1st: Hold Portal, Obscuring Mist, Detect Secret Doors, Sleep, Magic Missile, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image, Expeditious Retreat
2nd: Locate Object, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Knock
3rd: Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Stinking Cloud, Arcane Sight
4th: Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Locate Creature, Greater Invisibility
5th: Dismissal, Prying Eyes, Symbol of Sleep, Wall of Force
6th: Greater Dispel Magic, True Seeing, Mislead, Shadow Walk
7th: Banishment, Control Weather, Ethereal Jaunt, Statue
8th: Mind Blank, Incendiary Cloud, Discern Location, Irresistible Dance
9th: Foresight, Etherealness

That's not a huge list of tricks, really. Splicing in, say, three levels of Factotum (for +Int to all physical skills) would knock off the 8ths and 9ths, and cut the available 7ths down to two.

Ah well. Let's see, zero-spellcasting ninja. I'll think on it and get back to you later this evening.


I do think I'll use the magic missile shuriken idea, though!

Or you could take Spell Thematics (Ninjas), and have your Magic Missiles shaped like tiny ninjas.


Please tell me you didn't do this by hand.

Oh, but I did. A ninja is diligent.


I will ask about that. But I am almost certain he'll say no.

Hmmmm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae8t-QKPVY4).


Lame. Maybe after I lock my build down better I'll start asking about ninja items. Ninja tabi of water walking, for example.

You're silly. Ninja Tabi (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ninja_Tabi) would increase armor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MoxGWBgNRM).

As for water walking, there's a Monk ACF for that. I'll dig it up when I'm back from RL stuff in about an hour.

[Zaydos]

It's Stormwrack, replaces Slow Fall, comes online at 4th, distance limit is the same as you could have done slow fall for up to 90-ft, you can end your turn on it but only once and if you stop your movement on it (as opposed to ending before moving next round) you fall in. It's not good. I may have been working on naval substitution levels for a contest.

Or there might be another better one somewhere, but the Stormwrack one is not good.

[Waker]

If you are looking for ninja-like classes, how about Umbral Disciple from Magic of Incarnum? The requirements for the class isn't that hard to meet and the benefits are nice for a 3-level dip. Specifically the Embrace the Shadow ability that you get at 3rd level is nice. You can get 20% miss chance and Hide in Plain Sight, which is even better than the Shadowdancer version since you supply your own shadow.

[LoyalPaladin]

Excellent. Cassidy hungers for knowledge!
Updated!


Aww, man. There's so many cool tricks! Mirror Image shadow clones, Stinking Cloud smoke bombs... the list just goes on!
Haha. I played a Sorcadin a while ago and man did I use those spells in the flashiest of ways.


It's also very much worth noting that there's a reason the "thief" role is sometimes referred to as the "corpse", as that's what you'll often end up as, especially at high levels when more creatures are running around with a bevy of special senses, movement modes, immunities, and SLAs. This can be helped by bringing magic of your own to the table, which provides those same abilities plus counters to some of the above (flight beats tremorsense, for example). Keeping your spell selection fairly limited - which is as easy as not researching more spells than the 2 gained for free at each level - can go a long way towards curtailing your power.
Yeah, I've never played the thief role before! So I'm looking forward to it.


Here's a sample core-only spellbook at wizard level 17, assuming a starting Intelligence of 18.

1st: Hold Portal, Obscuring Mist, Detect Secret Doors, Sleep, Magic Missile, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image, Expeditious Retreat
2nd: Locate Object, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Knock
3rd: Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Stinking Cloud, Arcane Sight
4th: Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Locate Creature, Greater Invisibility
5th: Dismissal, Prying Eyes, Symbol of Sleep, Wall of Force
6th: Greater Dispel Magic, True Seeing, Mislead, Shadow Walk
7th: Banishment, Control Weather, Ethereal Jaunt, Statue
8th: Mind Blank, Incendiary Cloud, Discern Location, Irresistible Dance
9th: Foresight, Etherealness

That's not a huge list of tricks, really. Splicing in, say, three levels of Factotum (for +Int to all physical skills) would knock off the 8ths and 9ths, and cut the available 7ths down to two.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to keep this list. I'll use it eventually!


Ah well. Let's see, zero-spellcasting ninja. I'll think on it and get back to you later this evening.
Cool!


Or you could take Spell Thematics (Ninjas), and have your Magic Missiles shaped like tiny ninjas.
I would be open to a small dip into a spellcasting class to get 1st level spell to trigger sneak attack? Maybe grab some orb spells or something to thematic into shuriken?


Oh, but I did. A ninja is diligent.
That is terrifying.


You're silly. Ninja Tabi (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ninja_Tabi) would increase armor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MoxGWBgNRM).
I was waiting for it. Haha.


As for water walking, there's a Monk ACF for that. I'll dig it up when I'm back from RL stuff in about an hour.

It's Stormwrack, replaces Slow Fall, comes online at 4th, distance limit is the same as you could have done slow fall for up to 90-ft, you can end your turn on it but only once and if you stop your movement on it (as opposed to ending before moving next round) you fall in. It's not good. I may have been working on naval substitution levels for a contest.

Or there might be another better one somewhere, but the Stormwrack one is not good.
I think I might ditch Master Thrower and Ninja Spy gives water walking, so I think I'm okay.


If you are looking for ninja-like classes, how about Umbral Disciple from Magic of Incarnum? The requirements for the class isn't that hard to meet and the benefits are nice for a 3-level dip. Specifically the Embrace the Shadow ability that you get at 3rd level is nice. You can get 20% miss chance and Hide in Plain Sight, which is even better than the Shadowdancer version since you supply your own shadow.
I'll look into that. MoI gets shady looks in my group, but I like it.

[Waker]

Yeah, some people are scared of MoI. At least this PrC is very incarnum light, no meldshaping, just a bit of essentia involved. It could be a way to introduce people to the system without dropping in headfirst.

[Cerefel]

For a class that gives ninja-like abilities I personally like Warlock for spiderwalk, breath of night, flee the scene, etc. All things considered it ends up pretty thematic and decently powerful.

[ben-zayb]

If you want to try out Anchovies' suggestion, but without the burden of Wizard broad casting, try using Wu Jen instead. Definitely thematic, especially the spell list itself. Decapitating/Entangling Scarves? Needle Rain? Fire/Poison Breath? Snake Darts? Elemental Knives/Blades/Shurikens? Yes,the Wu Jen's spell list is a Complete Adventurer Ninja's wet dream.

Remember, too, that Fire Shuriken is instantaneous, which means you can store them up by casting them on your down time--maybe even modified with Searing Spell and Fell Drain!