Time for a recurring villain... what race?

[Hollysword]

I feel the group should encounter a villain that is recurring. Or a group even, could end up becoming arch-enemies (like Linear Guild to the OOTS... :elan: vs :nale: anyone?). Thing is, I'm not sure what race(s) and class(es) they should be. What would be the right combo to make them memorable against the party? The party is mostly CG, CN and NG, so this rival group should be mostly Lawful and/or Evil.

Red Dragonborn Barbarian
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
High Elf Ranger
Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer
Half-Elf Druid

[gfishfunk]

I feel the group should encounter a villain that is recurring. Or a group even, could end up becoming arch-enemies (like Linear Guild to the OOTS... :elan: vs :nale: anyone?). Thing is, I'm not sure what race(s) and class(es) they should be. What would be the right combo to make them memorable against the party? The party is mostly CG, CN and NG, so this rival group should be mostly Lawful and/or Evil.

Red Dragonborn Barbarian
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
High Elf Ranger
Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer
Half-Elf Druid

It is helpful first to know what else (vague is fine) is going on in your game so that this group can align against the players (or parallel to the players) so that they continuously reappear.

I would throw out as possible ideas:
- Gnome illusionists (arcane tricksters, eldritch knights, wizards); Evil Gnomads
- Feral Wood Elf Naturalists (Druids, Nature Oath Paladins, Feylocks, Rangers)
- Dragonborn Cultists (Cleric / Bard / Fighter / Paladin)
- Human / Half-Orc / Half-Elf Survivalists (Monks / Barbarians / Rangers)

[Hudsonian]

I'm not an experienced DM (beginner really)... But I think I can say with confidence that it is not the mechanical race that the villain/antagonistic group belongs to that makes it memorable, but rather the personality attached to it.

that being said, one of my favorite villains is the forest gnome arcane trickster, Easy to "Catch" but impossible to contain. (probably moon druid 2/thief x, pick up minor illusion from racial ability)

Is this a group that needs to be battle optimized or are shenannigans ok?

I really like the idea of a crew of illusionist wizards parading around as if they have half-orc barbarian body guards that have had their tongues cut out in devotion. But in battle, that is maybe not so optimized.

[Aett_Thorn]

Also, do you want villains or antagonists? Because the two do not need to be the same thing. For instance, if you've got an Elven king that is giving you missions, then a dwarven expedition that is trying to cut down lumber in the elven king's domain might be antagonists to the party, and could be a recurring "foe", even if they have the same good alignment.

A competing adventuring party that is going after the same goals could be a good antagonist, because you're trying to reach the same goals, and you might not want to kill them outright, but they are in the way of you completing your mission.

If the campaigns goal is to kill a dragon, then a group like the Cult of the Dragon could join your group, saying that they want to help slay the dragon. Of course, they won't tell the group that it's because they want to raise it as a dracolich after, and would use said dracolich to hunt down the group of PCs that slayed it.

Or, like others above have said, a "trickster" type group that tries to waylay the PCs as they go about their business could be fun. The sylvan races are great at this, and a group of them could be made of up Forest Gnomes, Pixies, Elves, etc. that are trying to get the PCs to leave their lands, but don't actually want to hurt them. They just want to make the task more difficult so that the PCs leave the area or try to find another way to get there.

[Aembrosia]

Flumphs.

Are they a good idea?
No.

Will you be a legend if you pull it off?
You bet'chya.

[MaxWilson]

I feel the group should encounter a villain that is recurring. Or a group even, could end up becoming arch-enemies (like Linear Guild to the OOTS... :elan: vs :nale: anyone?). Thing is, I'm not sure what race(s) and class(es) they should be. What would be the right combo to make them memorable against the party? The party is mostly CG, CN and NG, so this rival group should be mostly Lawful and/or Evil.

Red Dragonborn Barbarian
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
High Elf Ranger
Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer
Half-Elf Druid

Silver Shadow Dragon, Dragon Sorcerer.

Shadow Dragons are downright terrifying even before you start handing out class features like spellcasting (Shield, Counterspell, Darkness, Hold Person, Teleportation Circle, Mass Suggestion) and metamagic (Quicken, Subtle). As a Silver Dragon, he can Polymorph and show up in different guises (different races if you want). As a Shadow Dragon he gets all the coolness of Stealth Expertise + bonus action Hide + resistance to pretty much everything when not in bright light. As a Sorcerer he has much better strategic mobility than a regular dragon and can stir pots (and plots!) by Teleporting around behind the scenes.

[smcmike]

Especially with a Good party, I like the idea of a recurring antagonist - it's much easier to have multiple encounters with someone if those encounters don't involve deadly force.

Race doesn't matter, really - I'd just give him or her any common race. I also wouldn't bother with class - just give him the abilities you want him to have.

One thing that happens a LOT in serial TV shows is a recurring villain or antagonist is gradually dragged within the circle of characters. A main enemy in season one is a reluctant ally in season two and a fan favorite love interest in season three. You can see this dynamic in, for example, Buffy, Sons of Anarchy, or Orange is the New Black.

Antagonists who become allies make for interesting NPCs. One nice thing about having a good stable of interesting NPCs is it lets you develop even more antagonists - killing or capturing interesting NPCs is a great hook.

[gfishfunk]

Flumphs.

Are they a good idea?
No.

Will you be a legend if you pull it off?
You bet'chya.

And the final villain is....a Flumph Lich DemiGod with levels in Rogue, Wizard, and (of course) Bard.

EDIT: for clarity, YES, the Flumph plays the bagpipes. I'm surprised I had to clarify this.

[arrowed]

What about a squad of LN/LE/NE servants of 'law', but a law that is twisted and corrupt? Your rival team might believe chromatic dragonborn and tieflings are inherently evil, and all deserve death. For strong themes of discipline and order classwise, I'd use battlemaster, vengeance paladin, monk, (maybe wizard, fiendlock, assassin), and/or war cleric, and dress them in the personality of strategists and 'honourable' people. As for race... I like the idea of an evil dwarf death-squad, but humans would work too. Or halflings, or gnomes, your party is quite diverse, so maybe their foes should appear quite uniform at first, like: three grim dwarves in grey plate approach, armed with identical axes and shields. Then in battle, they discover one's a vengeance paladin, another's a battlemaster, and the other a war cleric.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Why get class levels involved at all? Monsters and NPCs are not made using PC rules, though they may borrow a class feature here and there. Decide what you want the villain to accomplish for your game. How do they drive the story forward? What's their purpose? Why do you want them to keep coming back?

If you want a truly memorable villain I suggest checking out Rich's villain workshop. Link is below.
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html

[R.Shackleford]

I feel the group should encounter a villain that is recurring. Or a group even, could end up becoming arch-enemies (like Linear Guild to the OOTS... :elan: vs :nale: anyone?). Thing is, I'm not sure what race(s) and class(es) they should be. What would be the right combo to make them memorable against the party? The party is mostly CG, CN and NG, so this rival group should be mostly Lawful and/or Evil.

Red Dragonborn Barbarian
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
High Elf Ranger
Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer
Half-Elf Druid

Aasimar Acolyte (Tome) Warlock Great Old One Pact (looks like an angel and hates it, but hasn't yet figured it out to use that to his advantage lol)

Don't build your NPCs with PC levels, that's not how enemies work all that well.

[Hudsonian]

I also really like the idea of overtly non fatal fights in taverns where a travelling drunk has decided that he absolutely can't stand the guts of one of the party members (probably the ranger... Snooty high elves) and insists on being irascible.

about halfway through the campaign you begin to ask for perception checks randomly and eventually they notice empty mugs in the camps in the mornings, or they open a chest and find an empty tanker of Ale that says, "Snooty Low Elves!" Turns out he is the major quest giver in the next story arch.

If well roleplayed, you could find the party going to Taverns just to see if Leeray Jaenkins is there. ("and for the last dragonbreathed time! My name is NOT LEEEEEEEROOOOOY JENKINS. Name is RAY.... RAY I tell you! )

[smcmike]

Ooh, bar fights are a nice way to introduce a recurring antagonist. The civilian context can, potentially, help to keep things non-lethal.

Do you know who makes for a good antagonist? Draco Malfoy, or Joffrey Baratheon - the snooty little monster, who has a couple of goons with him and immense social power due to his daddy. The players run into him behaving badly in a tavern. Maybe they recognize him, maybe not. Either way, conflict occurs, and they realize maybe they shouldn't outright murder him. Still, they embarrass him badly - what they do exactly is up to the party, but a little monster like that gives lots of inspiration.

Naturally, he plots revenge. The thing is, he's a stupid, spoiled teenager, and his goal isn't to simply kill the party - he needs some sort of elaborate plot that ends with them kissing his boots. This limits the lethality of the encounter, and explains how an enemy can be simultaneously powerful and stupid enough to repeatedly pick a losing fight.

[EvilAnagram]

The answer is always Rakshasa.

[R.Shackleford]

The answer is always Rakshasa.

No, no.

The answer is always something else, but it ends up being a Rakshasa.

[EvilAnagram]

No, no.

The answer is always something else, but it ends up being a Rakshasa.

Absolutely not. You let them know it's a Rakshasa, but don't let them know who the Rakshasa is. That way, everyone is the Rakshasa.

[JumboWheat01]

I second the idea of having a gnome as a recurring villain. The first time, they'll never see it coming, because who expects a gnome? They'll probably laugh it off, until they realize the gnome's serious. And then one of two things happen, they start to take the gnome (and by extension, all gnomes,) seriously, or the gnome become a comically inept villain and helps lighten up the mood from time to time.

[DragonSorcererX]

Would be cool something like this:

Red Dragonborn Barbarian -> Silver Dragonborn Oathbreaker
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric -> Duergar Death Cleric
High Elf Ranger -> Human Gunslinger or Human Eldritch Knight Bolter
Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer -> Aasimar Storm Sorcerer/Wild Sorcerer or Fiendish Sorcerer (Draconic Devil v Fallen Angel - Dawn of Edginess)
Half-Elf Druid -> Half-Orc Fiendlock or Gnoll Fiendlock

[MrStabby]

I vote for Myconid.

They need a bit more narrative love. Spreading their spores everywhere.

[R.Shackleford]

Absolutely not. You let them know it's a Rakshasa, but don't let them know who the Rakshasa is. That way, everyone is the Rakshasa.


I vote for Myconid.

They need a bit more narrative love. Spreading their spores everywhere.

I think we have our answer right here...

A Myconid Rakshasa!

Essentially Last of Us fungi have infected a Rakshasa.

[Sigreid]

When you're a kid you're afraid of ghosts and goblins. When you grow up you learn that the real monsters are the humans that seem nice. I think a human mastermind. A wealthy man or woman that doesn't even want anything from the party except relief from their boredom.

[Kane0]

5 adversaries would be too many, what you need my friend is a duo!

Go for something absolutely bizarre with a lot of synergy, like an oddly intelligent Helmed Horror (throw in EK or blade warlock levels as appropriate) paired up with a Githyanki/zerai 'Priest' (Trickery or arcana cleric levels would be appropriate. Throw in an exotic or extraplanar pet like a phase spider, rust monster, Behir or Remorhaz if you feel they need the help.
When they need to be covert the gith will 'wear' the helmed horror as his armor and apply some appropriate illusions, and they compliment each other nicely in combat as bruiser and support.

Just make sure you give them good chemistry, bonus points if they are somehow linked to the PCs from waaay back or come into partnership due to the PCs actions.

[LaserFace]

I feel the group should encounter a villain that is recurring. Or a group even, could end up becoming arch-enemies (like Linear Guild to the OOTS... :elan: vs :nale: anyone?). Thing is, I'm not sure what race(s) and class(es) they should be. What would be the right combo to make them memorable against the party? The party is mostly CG, CN and NG, so this rival group should be mostly Lawful and/or Evil.

Red Dragonborn Barbarian
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
High Elf Ranger
Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer
Half-Elf Druid

If I want a memorable villain, I first try to identify what it is they're doing. I only give them class abilities as such to give them the capacity to hold to that vision.

It might be good to consider your party's motivations. From looking at their classes, they seem like they could have a slight "Folksy" leaning; you could contrast them with a corrupt, decadent urban-dwelling wizard, who might just not only lack respect for little people and nature but actually hates the "uncivilized" and maybe has dreams to cover the world in chrome. Could be a mastermind vizier type.

I personally don't like to force "recurring" onto a villain before they've made an appearance, however; I think they should be allowed to die if the PCs earn it. But, killing an NPC doesn't mean they can't come back ... to take my wizard suggestion further, maybe they made a pact with a demon or other entity (unknown to the party) to be given life if they fall; but perhaps now they're some kind of undead, all rotten flesh and junk, and hate the PCs for it. The being that granted the wizard the pact could also be involved.

Other than that, the wizard could have any number of cronies that could antagonize the party as a group. He might have an apprentice or an enforcer, anything like that.

[VoxRationis]

A dwarf mastermind character. Someone whose plans run very long, and the PCs get in the way (possibly by accident, possibly on purpose but without understanding the full implications) of one of his ancient . The mastermind, who lives in plain sight (who pegs the simple, straightforward, full-bearded dwarf housecarl for a plotter of century-old schemes for power), begins to make life hell for the PCs, extending the many and ancient arms of his influence. As subtle adjustments to subtle plans go awry, he eventually goes off his rocker, eventually culminating in full-out, all-in gambits to bring ruin to those who have defeated him.

[Hollysword]

Great ideas everyone, thank you. I like the idea of recurring villains because they feel like my own characters that I pit against the PCs. They also help the story go along "The scout says she saw a dwarf with very spiky shoulder armor going into the forest... that idiot Grag must be up to something again".

[MrFahrenheit]

Taking a look through this thread, two things immediately occur to me:
1. The party likely has all dumped int.
2. The ranger is likely the stealthiest member.

With that in mind, if you're going to go enemy party, I'd advise the following:
Enemy warlock - great old one patron. But really anything that focuses on int saves with their spell selection can work.
Two enemy rogues - one thief/battle master, one arcane trickster/lore bard or land Druid (if the latter for MCing, race needs to be wood elf). Wanna make the players REALLY hate the enemy party? Swipe their stuff. Then talk your way out of it. And rarely be surprised thanks to both rogues having expertise in perception. *evil DM grin*

Rest of the enemy party can be whatever at that rate.

[Hollysword]

1. The party likely has all dumped int.

Actually, only the dragonborn has 8 INT. The rest have at least 12 on INT.

It is true only the ranger is stealthy, but the cleric has higher perception (Background as a sailor. A sailor needs a keen eye, or he won't be sailing for long)

[N810]

So I'm thinking Mindflayer or some other mind control villain,
what with all those low int and possibly wis scores. :smallamused:

[MrFahrenheit]

Actually, only the dragonborn has 8 INT. The rest have at least 12 on INT.

It is true only the ranger is stealthy, but the cleric has higher perception (Background as a sailor. A sailor needs a keen eye, or he won't be sailing for long)

I figured as much re: perception. However, whereas the cleric is proficient in perception, your rogues would have expertise in stealth (and perception). I'd still say to go after their int saves. You also only have one charismatic PC, so be sure that someone on team bad guy has the Banishment spell.

[Hudsonian]

If you want to go the route of Rival Adventuring group you could always go the route of alternate ways of doing similar play styles.

Red Dragonborn Barbarian
vs. Minotaur Champion Fighter with Lucky and GWM
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
vs. Half Orc Vengance Paladin
High Elf Ranger
vs. Aaroccokra Warlock with Spell Sniper and Agonizing Blast
Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer
vs. High Elf Wizard
Half-Elf Druid
vs. WereBear Monk of Elements (moon) OR gensai wild magic sorcerer (land)


Note: there would have to be a decent amount of DM wizardry involved. But I threw enough weird races/character builds in that maybe the group would be easily recognizable, even by evidence of recent encounters.

Maybe the DM party is a group of merciless mercenaries that seem to occasionally get the same job requests as the main party, but eventually just cross the line and need to be dealt with?

Edit: just realized that there is way better advice on here than mine... I will gracefully bow out to the much mightier members of the playground.

[comk59]

I once ran a Revenant that was hunting down one of the PCs for a past sin (I had cleared it with the player before hand). That was pretty fun, since the players kept going to greater and greater extremes to destroy the body.

[Hollysword]

I think I made one to be the barbarian's rival. Using DragonSorcererX's idea of a dragonborn oathbreaker:


Has a chromatic birthmark on her neck, a spot of white on her silver scales, which she tries to hide at all times.
She feels that, as a paladin, she is above all others, and generally doesn't bother speaking much, preferring to play her flute.
When she does talk to someone, she always looks away because she doesn't want to place herself on the same level as inferiors. And even then, she only says at most four words each time.
Her favorite pastime is sleeping on a bed of silver coins (her favorite kind of coins).
She wears a chainmail and wields a maul. She also has a net and a dagger as backups.


This might feel like overkill, but in a way she is my own character in the campaign, and I never spare any details to make any NPC as real as possible. Sure as an NPC she's likely to be killed (even more so as she's an antagonist), but who knows, depends what the PCs will do. She's not an oathbreaker yet, but she can lose her patience if the heroes keep taking her silver.

[MrFahrenheit]

Anything with expertise in stealth or sleight of hand.

As a DM, I expect players to kill monsters. But denying me the ability to show off the monsters' special features, whether through control spells or swiping crucial equipment from team bad guy? That's always an "arrrrgh!" moment for me. Within the rules and totally fair, but totally "arrrrrgh!"

Of course, that means it's also totally fair in reverse. Most members of any given Team PC rely on equipment to make the most of class features. Even casters need components or a focus.

The PCs expect you to damage them. As a DM, as much as I can't stand features which nerf baddies prior to showing one off, I still know to expect it nonetheless. I'd venture that most PCs don't. *evil DM grin*

[N810]

... oh I got it ... :elan:



A gelatinous cube that swallowed a sentient artifact of great power,
possibly a magic staff, oh and it can talk and uses the cubes body to move around.
Maybe it has it's previous owners soul trapped inside it, who was also an evil wizard.

[Shining Wrath]

Real BBEG: a person who appears to be decent, noble even, like a priest or mayor or some such; but they have made a fool's bargain with a devil, and so behind the scenes they advance the interests of Lawful Evil. The visible enemy is the head of the Assassin's Guild, who is (unknown to the BBEG and his hellish master) actually a rakshasa, working for a different Duke of Hell at cross-purposes to the BBEG.