Control Water questions

[RipTide]

So this is my first post on these forums, been lurking for a while now but never had a reason to post. Every other question Iv'e had I found an answer to by myself. There seems to be very little out there on this subject and next to nothing for 5e specifically, so here I am.

So back story, I am planning on playing a druid in an upcoming fresh campaign with my group. I am going for a Avatar master of elements style character and I was looking at what spells I would be able to grab to fit what I am going for. While looking I came across Control Water and at first it seemed like a spell with a huge amount of utility in the right circumstances, but the description seems to leave some vagueness as to what those right circumstances are.

Here are the questions I have.

1. The spell specifically says Freestanding Water, does that mean flowing water can't be used? If flowing water can be used (as is suggested by the redirect flow option but that brings up its own question later) can you control a waterfall? what about rain? or even mist? So what water can you and can you not effect?

2. The flood option says you can raise water as much as 20 ft. Where does that water to raise the water level come from? Does this spell create that water? Does the water you are raising the level of have to be connected to some natural source that it draws form to raise the level and if it's not can you not use this option?

3. Continuing question 2, if there is no need of a natural source how much water does there need to be in an area for you to be able to raise it? Could I target 100 sq. Ft. of puddles after a rain storm and raise their levels to flood an area?

4.With the flood option you can create a wave in large bodies of water, but can you still crate a wave, a smaller one at least, in smaller bodies of water, ie in a 50x50 body of water can I crate a 10 ft wave?

5. The Redirect Flow option seems to imply that you can use, at least that part of the spell, on flowing water, but can I use other parts of the spell on flowing water? Can I raise the level and flood an area around a river? Or Part the water to create a Dam like effect?

6. While you are redirecting a flow can you manipulate the strength and speed of the water, or does it move at its normal pace?

7. Can you use redirect flow on a still body of water?

Thank you for any help.

For added discussion value what are some creative uses of control water you can come up with, or have seen used?

[arrowed]

Er. Firstly, wow, that's a thorough question. You may have put more thought into it than the designers put into the spell itself. Secondly, to address 2 I don't think the spell should ever create water, since it's transmutation, not conjuration. For 3 I'd say it displaces water across the area, so while you could get puddles to 'flood' you'd just pull the water up by an inch or so. Apart from that, I think Control Water is a niche enough spell that you can follow the most generous interpretation of the rules without upsetting anyone. But DM adjucation trumps all. Ask them.
Actually, when I first read your post, I thought this person was meant to be an NPC antagonist, and I got this cool idea of a druid with water walk standing in the middle of a lake, throwing hapless PCs around with waves and whirlpools and trenches. If you could pull that off as a PC, that would be double awesome. :smallcool:

[Mith]

I think Rule of Cool applies to this, especially since one could argue that divine power can allow one to stretch the rules a bit.

Granted, this is coming from experience with a D&D Basic game where we used a Purify Food and Water spell (IIRC it balanced out as multiple spells) to create a temporary breach in a suspended waterfall, as that spell influenced water.

[clash]

First keep in mind all of these questions should be directed at your dm as he may have entirely different answers.



1. The spell specifically says Freestanding Water, does that mean flowing water can't be used? If flowing water can be used (as is suggested by the redirect flow option but that brings up its own question later) can you control a waterfall? what about rain? or even mist? So what water can you and can you not effect?


I would rule that only the flowing water option can affect flowing water as it specifically calls it out. I think the other uses could affect mist where appropriate. And flowing water could affect waterfalls or rain but only so much as to make it flow along surfaces. It says nothing about making the water flow through free air how you choose. So maybe change the direction in the air as long as its still going down or once it hits a surface it could flow up the surface.



2. The flood option says you can raise water as much as 20 ft. Where does that water to raise the water level come from? Does this spell create that water? Does the water you are raising the level of have to be connected to some natural source that it draws form to raise the level and if it's not can you not use this option?





3. Continuing question 2, if there is no need of a natural source how much water does there need to be in an area for you to be able to raise it? Could I target 100 sq. Ft. of puddles after a rain storm and raise their levels to flood an area?


It doesn't create water, more re-positions it so you could pool together all the water from the puddles and might be able to create a single 20ft column of water.



4.With the flood option you can create a wave in large bodies of water, but can you still crate a wave, a smaller one at least, in smaller bodies of water, ie in a 50x50 body of water can I crate a 10 ft wave?


This seems perfectly reasonable. The wave is a restriction of the larger body of water not an extra thing you can do because its bigger. Doing it on a smaller scale is fine.



5. The Redirect Flow option seems to imply that you can use, at least that part of the spell, on flowing water, but can I use other parts of the spell on flowing water? Can I raise the level and flood an area around a river? Or Part the water to create a Dam like effect?


RAW I would say no, but I would allow that short term just not for the entire 10 minutes. If you part the part the river will build up more and more on one side making it harder to maintain. The same with flooding. I would allow it for a few rounds or even up to a minute, enough time to get across the river.



6. While you are redirecting a flow can you manipulate the strength and speed of the water, or does it move at its normal pace?


I would say it moves at its normal pace but apparently ignores gravity.



7. Can you use redirect flow on a still body of water?


I think RAW it has to be moving, but I see no reason why not(You can already create waves and whirlpools) as long as it moves at a reasonable pace.

Also for more cool spells see if your dm allows spells from elemental evil. There is some cool stuff in there, including a cantrip that lets you control water in a 5ft cube.

[Nookleer]

I'm actually shocked that these questions caused so many different responses. Seems it would be pretty obvious at this point...

1. "freestanding" refers to all (liquid) water that is not in a container, that is, standing free. This means you won't be moving people's potions or blood.

2. This one might seem to require some thought, but doesn't. It creates a surge, that is, a wave of sorts. Simply slightly lowering the density of water can do this, but, clearly, there needs to be enough water to surge upward. This will require some judgement.

3. There needs to be water, but in theory, if your DM allows it, you could collect puddles AND THE RAIN ITSELF. Surging like this has the obvious effect of collecting the water into a single puddle. Note to DMs: this is abusable as hell. A 100' cube of water weighs 62 million pounds.. Cast in a driving rain, this is could, theoretically, create a million pound raindrop. Overkill much?

4. There is no reason you couldn't. I would simply houserule that the wave could be no higher than the water is deep.

5. Yes you totally can. Just note that damming a river won't stop the rest of the river. It will just overflow your area of effect.

6. The spell does not allow speed control, except where stated in the "wave" form. No, you can't make a water cannon.

7. Yes. The rule seems to require only that the water be freestanding.

[Imbalance]

3. There needs to be water, but in theory, if your DM allows it, you could collect puddles AND THE RAIN ITSELF. Surging like this has the obvious effect of collecting the water into a single puddle. Note to DMs: this is abusable as hell. A 100' cube of water weighs 62 million pounds.. Cast in a driving rain, this is could, theoretically, create a million pound raindrop. Overkill much?

I'm sure this gets overlooked a lot just because so few people understand the weight of water in volume. I can't imagine too many DM's have had to make rulings regarding factors such as hydraulic pressure, surface tension, capillary action, etc.

[Chronos]

One place where it's very useful is when the party coincidentally had already cast Water Breathing that morning, and in the next cavern, you see a couple of very difficult (but not amphibious) monsters standing next to an underground stream. The DM got rather annoyed at us for that one.