New spell system

[clash]

I am looking at developing a class that uses a new spell system based on charge time for spells. The system works on the basis that the character doesnt get any spells from long or short rest mechanics and instead gets mana points at the start of each round in combat. The idea is that you cant really go nova with spells but you have a slow consistent flow of mana that you can use on low level spells quickly or wait and save up for high level spells. I intentionally left out level 1 as I have an idea for that so this progression starts at level 2. Spells of level 6 and higher can only be cast 1/long rest.

Spells require 2 + spell level mana to cast



Level
Max Mana
Mana Gained Per turn


2
3
1


3
4
1


4
4
1


5
5
2


6
5
2


7
6
2


8
6
2


9
7
3


10
7
3


11
8
3


12
8
3


13
9
4


14
9
4


15
10
4


16
10
4


17
11
5


18
11
5


19
12
5


20
12
5

[Frozen_Feet]

How do these spellpoints function out of combat? Does the character have to focus for several rounds? Is there anything stopping them from starting each combat fully charged?

[clash]

How do these spellpoints function out of combat? Does the character have to focus for several rounds? Is there anything stopping them from starting each combat fully charged?

The intention is that they dont increase out of combat, so you would start each combat with 0 or whatever you had at the end of your last combat minus any mana you spend in between. I'm not worried about the fluff of this right now just the mechanics.

For out of combat utility the class would have access to rituals and possibly something like invocations.

[JeenLeen]

Wondering: is this inspired in part by the MP system of the video game Ogre Tactics?

I originally misread this as a fix for the entire magic system, but upon seeing it as a mechanic for one class, I see this as more workable. For fluff, maybe something like feeding on the fury of battle?

Some questions
What weapon/armor proficiencies do you imagine for this class? This casting feature makes me thing of a gish, or at least something that can become gish easily, like the warlock. I think this is relevant to the magic-regen system because knowing their non-magical options helps us determine how bad it is to be spell-less for a bit.

Does this class grant cantrips? If yes, do they work like generic 5e cantrips (use at-will)?

Is this a 'spells known' class like sorcerer or warlock where you know a few, or a 'prepare spells' class like cleric or druid where you have your entire spelllist but prepare but a few each day?
When do you get new levels of spells?

Comments
Even at level 20, shooting off a level 4 spell each round will leave you pretty magically drained. I think this class needs options beyond spellcasting. I imagine--as hinted above--that you expect to do such, but without more of an idea about the chassis this MP system is built into, it's hard to critique.

Also, how this would interact with multiclassing seems... complicated and potentially really open to abuse. Moreso than Pact magic.

[clash]

Thanks for all the questions. I can see you are putting a lot of thought into this. I will try to answer them all as much as I can at this point.


Wondering: is this inspired in part by the MP system of the video game Ogre Tactics?
What weapon/armor proficiencies do you imagine for this class? This casting feature makes me thing of a gish, or at least something that can become gish easily, like the warlock. I think this is relevant to the magic-regen system because knowing their non-magical options helps us determine how bad it is to be spell-less for a bit.


I see this class as being on par with the bard or warlock for doing weapon dmg. Light armor likely extra attack from a subclass.



Does this class grant cantrips? If yes, do they work like generic 5e cantrips (use at-will)?


This class would grant cantrips like normal. My level 1 idea was actually to start with 2 max mana and grant the ability to upscale cantrips for 2 mana to a damage die higher than normal. This would give the class sort of .5 level spells at 1st level rather than potentially far too many 1st level spells/day for level 1. I can also see a subclass granting +modifier dmg to cantrips for free somewhere closer to level 10.



Is this a 'spells known' class like sorcerer or warlock where you know a few, or a 'prepare spells' class like cleric or druid where you have your entire spelllist but prepare but a few each day?
When do you get new levels of spells?


This is undecided but I am leaning more towards the 'spells known' side of things. Although prepared spells is more in line with rituals.



Comments
Even at level 20, shooting off a level 4 spell each round will leave you pretty magically drained. I think this class needs options beyond spellcasting. I imagine--as hinted above--that you expect to do such, but without more of an idea about the chassis this MP system is built into, it's hard to critique.


As noted above it will likely choose between cantrip + modifer or extra attack for consistent damage



Also, how this would interact with multiclassing seems... complicated and potentially really open to abuse. Moreso than Pact magic.

I was thinking it would be similar to pact magic. You can cast spells known from other classes with your mana, but other than that no interaction. You wouldnt be able to smite with mana or use anything that requires spell slots. With this in mind do you see points of abuse?

Oh and to answer your first question it wasnt inspired by that game, but it was inspired from rpg video games in general.

[JeenLeen]

I was thinking it would be similar to pact magic. You can cast spells known from other classes with your mana, but other than that no interaction. You wouldnt be able to smite with mana or use anything that requires spell slots. With this in mind do you see points of abuse?

I was thinking of stuff like using it to fuel Paladin's smite, Sorcerer spell slots through converting to sorcery points, or something with warlock short rest spell refreshes.
Though, after more thought and reading your response, I see it doesn't really open itself to such. You never convert MP into a spell slot; you just cast the spell using MP. Thus, there's no spell slot to fuel other classes' powers, like there is with warlock.

I would recommend letting spell known from this class be cast using spell slots from another class. Basically the vice-versa of "You can cast spells known from other classes with your mana".

I think I'd recommend the more martial archetype get medium armor, martial weapons, and maybe shields, like a Valor Bard. Light armor and simple weapons for the base class seems fitting.


This class would grant cantrips like normal. My level 1 idea was actually to start with 2 max mana and grant the ability to upscale cantrips for 2 mana to a damage die higher than normal. This would give the class sort of .5 level spells at 1st level rather than potentially far too many 1st level spells/day for level 1. I can also see a subclass granting +modifier dmg to cantrips for free somewhere closer to level 10.
I haven't played enough spellcasters in 5e to adequately evaluate the cantrip stuff you say, but this sounds more feasible. The class feels awful limited at level 1 still.

Maybe a class feature, gained at level 1, that lets them cast one spell of their highest level known 1/short rest? This spell is basically like a racial spellcasting, not based on mana or spell slots.
This spell is set, however. When they gain a level in the class, they can change it to another spell from their spell list, of up to the highest level known, up to level 5. (Level 5 max, since you have the line about limiting level 6+ spells.)

For example, at level 1, they can cast Charm Person 1/short rest as a 1st-level spell. Same for level 2 (assuming they don't trade it out for a different level 1 spell.)
If they unlock level 2 spells at level 3 like most casters, at that level they can either keep Charm Person but start casting it as a level 2 spell, or choose to trade it for another level 1 or 2 spell to cast as a 2nd-level spell.

This spell must be from the class's spell list, but it does not necessarily need to be a spell known (or prepared.) But, if it is not known (or prepared), the caster cannot cast it using mana.


EDIT for new thought, re:
"This is undecided but I am leaning more towards the 'spells known' side of things. Although prepared spells is more in line with rituals."

What if you make something like wizards, but no spellbook.
If I recall correctly, wizards start with 6 spells known (i.e, in their spellbook) and gain 2/level. Maybe this class has the same number & rate, or something reduced if needed (like 4 known at level 1, + 1/level up). They can ritual cast any spells they know, but each day they must prepare their spells like how a wizard or cleric would, or they can prepare the number a sorcerer would know if you want to keep it low. They can only cast prepared spells using mana.

I think a higher number of spells known (but not necessarily prepared) than sorcerer or warlock get is good, since that way there's room to know some utility spells to cast as rituals and some combat spells to prepare.

I still feel like they should be able to cast non-ritual spells outside of combat somehow -- it just doesn't make a lot of sense otherwise, and some utility spells like Disguise Self, Charm Person, or Fly lose a lot -- but if you have some fluff about the momentum of combat, I guess it makes sense. Such is just a limitation of this class, and one hopes the benefits outweigh that limitation. Maybe something like you can cast a spell that requires concentration outside of combat x times/rest, but you automatically break concentration when you roll initiative. That way you don't get a ton of castings, you can't pre-buff, but you still get some access to utility spells.
I admit this feels more complicated than I'd like.

[clash]

I still feel like they should be able to cast non-ritual spells outside of combat somehow -- it just doesn't make a lot of sense otherwise, and some utility spells like Disguise Self, Charm Person, or Fly lose a lot -- but if you have some fluff about the momentum of combat, I guess it makes sense. Such is just a limitation of this class, and one hopes the benefits outweigh that limitation. Maybe something like you can cast a spell that requires concentration outside of combat x times/rest, but you automatically break concentration when you roll initiative. That way you don't get a ton of castings, you can't pre-buff, but you still get some access to utility spells.
I admit this feels more complicated than I'd like.

Thanks for all the great feedback. I was thinking of giving a level 1 feature aside from spellcasting but your idea may work as well. Also for the utility side of things they will be able to cast utility spells with mana leftover from combat but have another solution in mind. My thoughts were a feature something like granted a a certain level.:

Mana surge: As an action you can fill your mana to full. Once you use this feature you cant use it again until you complete a long rest.

I could give it pretty early I think as it is limited by max mana. Even at level 20 it only gives an extra 2 4th level spells per day so I dont think it is broken and if not used for utility it would allow boss battle prebuffing either with actual buffs or getting ready to cast that high level spell.

[clash]

I have the first draft of the class using this system complete over at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500635-Battlemage-New-Base-Class. As always I welcome feedback, criticisms and suggestions.