[3.0/3.5] Help with Swiftblade Build Feats + Equipment selection

[Sandsarecool]

Um, Hello People.
Please forgive what will undoubtedly be a large wall o' text; I am not very good at getting points across, and I often feel that I need to provide extra informations, if nothing for the sake of completeness. Also, it's quite late at night here and I've got a splitting headache, so excuse the grammar and spelling errors, if any exist. my in-built proof reader does not work when one is tired.

--
I have been recently honoured with the invitation of joining the 'Veteran D&D Group' at school. I've often had the pleasure of watching them play, and needless to say, they have been having me come back for more and more. But what I feel makes this group special is both the cohesion of the group and the extra effort the players put into it - there's nothing quite like having a Grade 8 Violinist actually PLAY his Bard's Dragonfire inspiration at the table, with others humming along. They play very well, and have high expectations in return. Which is why I have turned to you, the many faces that possess possibly (nigh-)infinite wisdom, to help me with my character creation. Namely, the class selection. the entire thing now, from race to feats to equipment.

As a player, I have a fairly good grasp on the 3rd and 3.5 Edition system, though more as a caster than ye olde melee, as well as many more hours learning from the wisdom of other groups. I've been asked to build a character of about 17th level, who'll be jumping into a pre-existing campaign where the action is already well under way. Campaign is very low XP (and as a result high treasure), and should continue to level 20, perhaps beyond. Game is a fairly balanced mix of role-play and combat (though the party tend to find ways around a good deal of hostile combat encounters).

Table Rules require hard, physical copies of the books in order to be available. Although I have nothing to share, between them all, they've got over 100 - which they say contains every single official WoTC book printed in 3 & 3.5 Editions, (with many-a campaign setting) as well as some well known (and obscure!) 3rd party d20 books, the ranks of which include titles such as Hyperconscious, Untapped Potential, The Noble Wild, and Crime and Punishment, to name a few. The DMs are very lenient on most books as they've "Been there, done that." I might be able to persuade them to allow Web supplements, but no guarantees. Official Web Supplements allowed.

A Natural 20 on my Search check in the School Library Archives (Because we come from a Dandy! School) has revealed several hundred, genuine copies of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines, so with luck I can pull out material from there, pending DM approval. Though it makes me wonder how those got there in the first place…

Uh, Campaign World. Due to the now high level campaign and the nature of the books being used, the over-simplified gist is that the PCs are often thrown from one world to the next (allowing for the sudden change of settings to co-exist while allowing room for derps from the party). Unfortunately, this inevitably means that there’s no main enemy type for more than a short while, so specialisation against the one enemy type has been hinted to me to be a bad idea. The party is often stripped of magic items, sometimes permanently, so reliance on such items is also considered a bad idea. Resurrection spells and the like are extremely rare, more so than wishes (which cannot emulate any resurrection spell), making death nigh-permanent. These spells cannot be learned via the conventional method. Spells like revivify and spells which raise undead are not affected as such. Spells which affect survival are either severely hampered or cannot be used to said effect. For example, Create Food and Water creates significantly less food and water; Create Water works as intended, but the water provides no sustenance and does not alleviate thirst.

There are now four surviving party members; an RKV Cleric, a Fangshields Druid, a raw Phrenic Factotum and a big mess of what vaguely resembles a Swift Ambusher (who is also Phrenic). Despite the loss of three party members, the group is still reasonably competent in most areas, though now lacks the 'purity of specialisation' in their fields. All are fairly optimized, and have atleast some divine casting ability, and have (Not very subtly) 'nudged' me into doing the same, as they've found that they tend to last longer. Though the DM secretly took me aside and told me: "It's just a co-incidence... for now." Only hard rules I must abide to: Character must be MALE, must be FAIRLY YOUNG, and must have some form of GOOD alignment. I'd prefer the Neutral/lawful end of the spectrum, if possible. The party do not want me to be a raw bard or a raw wizard if possible, if only as they're mourning their own. I'd prefer to be human, but this is not necessary.

Using Person_Man's Niche Ranking System, The party members generally fill these roles, from most obvious to less so. (And yeah, not the intended usage, but y'know, still useful) If they're not listed, their options aren't very good in said departments.
RKV: Melee Damage, Party Face (Urban), Debuffer, Buffer, Battlefield control, Ranged Damage, Meat shield, Healer
Druid: Summoner, Buffer, Melee Damage, Battlefield control, Party Face (Wilderness), Mobility, Meat shield, Ranged Damage, Game changer (She almost never uses these abilities, but they're there), Healer
Factotum: Curiosity, Debuffer, Buffer, Sage, Dominator, Trapfinding, a little bit of everything?:smalltongue:
Sneak: Scout, Ranged Damage, Melee Damage, Mobility, Trapfinder, Healer, Thief, Curiosity, Sage, Debuffer

I'm bound to have missed something, but it was an attempt. A kinda bad attempt, looking back.

Characters are allowed up THREE flaws, Anti-feats if they so choose, and receive feats at the rate of Pathfinder; one every two levels. Enemies are applicable to receive this treatment as well. LA buyoff is allowed.

I have the raw dice rolls of:
18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 15 :smallsmile:

Due to uh, reasons, it seems like I now am forced into playing some form of lycanthrope werewolf. I'd already told the DM I wanted to play a form of caster, but he refuses to move on that area. He has however, agreed to impose no RHD (so no dead animal levels, hooray); only the LA, and he's allowing me to add full arcane/divine/manifesting progression to ONE prestige class. It seems like a fair enough trade, though it means +0 (+1?)LA else I can't buy it off in time. With this information, what would a good build now be? Some of the party members recommended either Warshaper or Abjurant Champion, but I am not well versed in this.

tl;dr Need a build (and over-arcing archetype) for a werewolf character that works by 17th level at the latest, through to 20, and harmonises with a RKV Cleric, a Druid, a Factotum and a Sneak Attacker.
...I do hope I used that 'tl;dr' thing right. I have no idea what it means.

EDIT: Yeah. Loads o' words. Sorry about that.
EDIT 2: New rules, so I thought I'd post an update here so that it's easier for people to help me more.
EDIT 3: Based on posts I've already gotten, my build currently looks something like this, but certainly open for discussion and subject to change: Battle Sorcerer 4/Swiftblade 10/Abj. Champ 4. Using this platform as a general guide, what feats and skill tricks should I be taking? What spells should I memorise?
Feel free to keep posting build ideas though, they're always appreciated.

[Draconium]

The first thing that springs to mind: You never actually specify any specific role you want to fill. And as it seems the rest of the party is basically all divine, at least in some part, that leaves basically anything open to you.

Now, with that being said, I would actually recommend playing a dedicated arcane caster of some sort, since it looks like that Factotum is the closest thing you have. And honestly, arcane casters rule at high levels. However, they also tend to be fairly complex to play, due to the vast amount of available resources for them. They can also avoid being item-dependent, unlike martials.

Based on your situation, some sort of spontaneous arcane spellcaster is what I'd go for (so you don't lose your spellbook or something). Options include the Sorcerer, Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer, if I recall correctly. The latter three would be easier to play, due to having fixed lists, meaning very little bookkeeping. Look in the PHII, Complete Arcane, and Heroes of Horror for each, respectively. Sorcerer wouldn't be as easy to build, but the wider variety of powers to choose from often makes them more powerful.

Of course, if you don't want to play arcane, that's fine. If you do, though, perhaps give us some more ideas on what role you'd like to fill, and we could help for prestige class options and such from there.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about a wizard 6/swiftblade 9/spelldancer 1/abjurant champion 1 (continuing AC)? Gish, persist buffs, not a straight wizard. Requires a web class, which isn't in print (but you can print the webpage, I suppose).

Maybe a Mind Mage? wizard 1/psion 3/cerebremancer 3/mind mage 10 is quite strong, especially with Psiotheurgy. Requires Dragon magazine.

If you want to play up the survivalism, warforged or necropolitans are the way to go, or even a good lich (Libris Mortis or Monsters of Faerûn). How about a nice warforged warblade, or a Good variant dread necromancer?

[Extra Anchovies]

there's nothing quite like having a Grade 8 Violinist actually PLAY his Bard's Dragonfire inspiration at the table, with others humming along
you what

between them all, they've got over 100
that's awesome

several hundred, genuine copies of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines
no really, can we switch places?

Hm. Seems we can't, and Magic Jar isn't on my spell list. Shame.

So, whadda we got. Young-ish good-aligned male, possibly tending towards law. Also, 17th level.

Let's see. Getting to 17th level is usually a near-impossible feat, unless we're running the DMG as RAW and epic-level commoners are running around metropolises willy-nilly. So getting to 17th level at a fairly young age requires absurd natural talent. I'd say learned classes like Wizards are out.

My suggestion? Play a princess. (http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_33/729261/elsa-frozen-today-150813-01_9d1a98b8fcc742315283b5755c5b3504.today-inline-large.jpg) Or a prince. Whatever.

Well, perhaps not royalty, but my example character stands. A spontaneous spellcaster, someone whose magic developed fast. By the age of eight it was powerful enough that your lack of control threatened those around you. When you reached twelve all you knew of them was their attempts to lock you away or "cure" you. As you neared adulthood, you lashed out - perhaps it was Fimbulwinter, perhaps it was Blackfire, but all they saw was a threat, not the frightened soul crying for help. They attacked you, and you had no choice, and you slew them all. Now you have nothing left but your magic. The gift of a god, the price of a demon's pact, the curse of ancient blood; you know not what empowers you, but you will find it. And when you do, you will make it tell you why.

Edit: and on that cheerful note, welcome to the forums!

[Calthropstu]

Might I suggest the psion? With some reasonable access to healing it can semi-function as an emergency healer, has decent access to buffs, and can sling powers along side the best of casters. And with no armor casting penalty, it's a very solid and survivable character.

Aside from that, I would recommend maybe going for a mystic theurge type.

[Sandsarecool]

The first thing that springs to mind: You never actually specify any specific role you want to fill. And as it seems the rest of the party is basically all divine, at least in some part, that leaves basically anything open to you.
Well, that was somewhat purposeful; I've atleast several tens of hours into looking at different options. I left the overall role ambiguous so as to all more freedom of movement. As a player, I prefer the support type of character, but it seems that might not be necessary here.


Now, with that being said, I would actually recommend playing a dedicated arcane caster of some sort, since it looks like that Factotum is the closest thing you have. And honestly, arcane casters rule at high levels. However, they also tend to be fairly complex to play, due to the vast amount of available resources for them. They can also avoid being item-dependent, unlike martials.
Dedicated Arcane did first spring to mind when I had my initial overlook of the party. I'm confident about playing them; it's building one I truly require assistance with.


Based on your situation, some sort of spontaneous arcane spellcaster is what I'd go for (so you don't lose your spellbook or something). Duly Noted.


Options include the Sorcerer, Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer, if I recall correctly. The latter three would be easier to play, due to having fixed lists, meaning very little bookkeeping. If I can't manage to book-keep from what is primarily one source, I'd look rather pathetic, especially if I looked over my shoulder to marvel at the book keeping that is a druid or the like. This is a matter of honour! CHAARGE!
...I don't delving into a few books here and there, If I can be pointed in the right direction.


Of course, if you don't want to play arcane, that's fine. If you do, though, perhaps give us some more ideas on what role you'd like to fill, and we could help for prestige class options and such from there. Reading from the many helpful replies thus far, some sort of psionic class or spontaneous arcane caster appears to be in order. But you want ideas and I want answers, and we can do this one at a time, so... What role do YOU recommend I fill?


If you want to play up the survivalism, warforged or necropolitans are the way to go, or even a good lich (Libris Mortis or Monsters of Faerûn). How about a nice warforged warblade, or a Good variant dread necromancer? Aw, you kill (HA!) the fun in dying from something as mundane as dehydration or old age if you can't die from it in the first place.


Let's see. Getting to 17th level is usually a near-impossible feat, unless we're running the DMG as RAW and epic-level commoners are running around metropolises willy-nilly.
Malheureusement, the DM is not crazy enough to have epic-level commoners running about.


So getting to 17th level at a fairly young age requires absurd natural talent. I'd say learned classes like Wizards are out.
You know, I hadn't actually thought about that, at all. When you've got a Dire Wolf PC and the like, age tends to get skewed to deal with the shorter life spans. I'd better come up with a good explanation, then...


My suggestion? [LINK REMOVED (cos I'ma newbie)] Play a princess.Or a prince. Whatever. Hm. We've already got the one minor noble in the party (Ya know, for those annoying laws where only the Nobles can carry around martial weapons in the city.) Would two be beneficial? The rest of the party comes from COMPLETELY different walks of life. (Like, wild animal to minor noble different. Yeah.) I do believe that is primary a result of The Noble Wild. I recommend the read for anyone who wants to play an animal PC.


But my example character stands. A spontaneous spellcaster, someone whose magic developed fast. A Naturally talented one, hm? Understood.


Aside from that, I would recommend maybe going for a mystic theurge type. I was once told to avoid Mystic Theurge like the plague, but I've never known why. My googlefu (and this infernal internet speed) is weak,

EDIT: Curse these blasted forum controls!

[One Step Two]

Your group sounds awesome, before I go super deep into build options, one quick question, do you have access to champions of valor?

[Sandsarecool]

Your group sounds awesome, before I go super deep into build options, one quick question, do you have access to champions of valor?

What, as in the Forgotten Realms book? Yeah, we've got that one.
...Why?

[Waker]

I was once told to avoid Mystic Theurge like the plague, but I've never known why. My googlefu (and this infernal internet speed) is weak,
People tend to dislike Mystic Theurge and other theurge classes in general, because without early entry shenanigans you lose out on higher level spells in exchange for the ability to cast more lower level spells.


How about playing a Nomad (Teleport Psion)? Teleport effects can be really useful, especially with Powers like Dimension Swap which can let you rearrange the battlefield. Though by no means an absolute necessity, Elocator can be a fun PrC to take. Forget walking around, you just drift along wherever the party goes.

[DMVerdandi]

I suggest a Dragon magazine 319 Erudite, with Spell to power ACF.

Take it all 20 levels straight, Pick up Metapsionic feats as your staple feats (Definitely pick up the 3.0 Persistent power feat).

Now, everyone is going to whine for a second, but let me fill you in on what you would be paying for. Flexibility.

-Yes you can learn all Psion powers up to level 8, and the generic ones to 9.
-Yes you can learn all arcane spells up to level 8

Now, that is out of the way. Are you going to? Absolutely not. Many just aren't good, and aren't worth the experience points needed to learn them (that's how you do it btw). You are going to do some research into what are the best spells for what YOU want to do (cause sometimes you don't want to do everything), and those will be your mainstays.

All in all, you are most likely going to end up with about 90 spells/powers spread over 9 levels, and about 6/10 of those are going to be backups that don't see much use, and exist purely for utility. The other 4/10 will be your bread and butter powers that are going to shape who you are as a manifester.

That's 10 spells known per spell level, and one selects 4 of those per level, per day to use.



From there, the question is, what do you want your theme to be?
Personally, I like illusionist/enchanter types, so for an erudite, I would pick those types of spells/powers, and leave open slots so that I could manifest anything I needed on the fly. What If I needed feather fall out of nowhere, or freedom of movement, and I was some other caster, and I didn't prepare, learn, or buy it as a scroll? I am wrecked.

Erudite? Check and see if you have it. If you do and you need it, expend a slot, If you don't? Leave it open until you find something you need.

It seriously has the best mechanic in the game.

Something fun to do would just be picking up Energy push, Energy missile, Globe of Invulnerability,Hustle,Telekinetic Maneuver, Greater Mighty wallop. Boom, you have Ness.

That's what I mean. The sheer flexibility that the erudite just lets you create any type of mage/psychic
character that you want. Want a fire mage? Easy. Want a Bard with a little more casting oomph? EASY. Want a
Spooky, occult witch that will whip out bestow curse, and then later be able to use psionic blast to represent more intrinsic and primal power? EASY. You pick what you want, you make it happen.

Just don't run out of power points.

[Draconium]

Reading from the many helpful replies thus far, some sort of psionic class or spontaneous arcane caster appears to be in order. But you want ideas and I want answers, and we can do this one at a time, so... What role do YOU recommend I fill?

Well, from what I see, you've got a skill-monkey with the Factotum, while the Cleric and Druid seem to be frontline/healing, possibly with a bit of buffing and summoning. This means that from a purely optimization standpoint, you'd probably want to go to battlefield control.

However, that doesn't mean you should. What you should do is find a role you enjoy playing and stick with it. Want to bend the wills of anyone who opposes you? Be a Psion (Telepath), or a Beguiler. Want to make things explode? Warmage, Psion (Kineticist), maybe even Sorcerer into Incantantrix. Want to summon undead minions? Cleric or Dread Necromancer. Really, this is not a question I can answer for you.

[One Step Two]

What, as in the Forgotten Realms book? Yeah, we've got that one.
...Why?

Melee, Divine and Arcane combine to create: The Mystic Knight!

This build is a little MAD, but if you can pull it off, it's packed with flavour, it's not going to be earth shatteringly powerful, but it's aiming more for style.

So, a Paladin can start as young as 16 years old, and we're going to use that as our Chassis

Paladin 5/Wizard 12

Feat: Sword of the Arcane order (from Champions of Valor), your paladin and wizard levels stack for the purposes of Caster level. Now, the CoV web enhancement has the High One Warrior Wizard Substituion levels, which we also want.

The High one Warrior wizard gets:
At wiz 2 you lose a 1st level spell slot to have your wizard and paladin levels stack for Simite evil.
At wiz 4th, losing a 2nd level spell slot to ignore upto 20% Arcane spell failure when wearing armor.
At wiz 5th, you lose your bonus wizard feat to Gain Familiar mount, Your special summoned mount also counts as a familiar for the bonuses it gets.
If you can get your hands on Dragon magazine 325, you can also pick up the Theurgic Bond feat, so your paladin levels and arcane caster levels stack for both bonuses, giving you a truly awesome mount. And thanks to Familiar Mount, wont cost you exp if it dies, because you can summon a new one.

Your concept is that you're a brash young noble gifted by the god of magic, with a powerful steed to summon at your behest!

The build is pretty much open to whatever you like from there on out, take feats to round out your mounted combat or casting.

Other items of note: if the Legend of the Twins sourcebook is somewhere there, Dynamic Priest lets you change the wisdom requirements over to charisma, or Academic priest to prioritize intelligence.
Magic Blooded template from Dragon Mag 306 for -2 wis, +2 Cha for LA +0, and some nice SLAs.

You can leave wizard at 5 to go straight into Abjurant champion for some nice d10 HD and full base attack bonus. Or if you want to spend a feat on Skill Focus (Know:religion), you can get into Divine orcale, to get some fun feature including Evasion, even when wearing heavy armor.

[Calthropstu]

you what

that's awesome

no really, can we switch places?

Hm. Seems we can't, and Magic Jar isn't on my spell list. Shame.

So, whadda we got. Young-ish good-aligned male, possibly tending towards law. Also, 17th level.

Let's see. Getting to 17th level is usually a near-impossible feat, unless we're running the DMG as RAW and epic-level commoners are running around metropolises willy-nilly. So getting to 17th level at a fairly young age requires absurd natural talent. I'd say learned classes like Wizards are out.

My suggestion? Play a princess. (http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_33/729261/elsa-frozen-today-150813-01_9d1a98b8fcc742315283b5755c5b3504.today-inline-large.jpg) Or a prince. Whatever.

Well, perhaps not royalty, but my example character stands. A spontaneous spellcaster, someone whose magic developed fast. By the age of eight it was powerful enough that your lack of control threatened those around you. When you reached twelve all you knew of them was their attempts to lock you away or "cure" you. As you neared adulthood, you lashed out - perhaps it was Fimbulwinter, perhaps it was Blackfire, but all they saw was a threat, not the frightened soul crying for help. They attacked you, and you had no choice, and you slew them all. Now you have nothing left but your magic. The gift of a god, the price of a demon's pact, the curse of ancient blood; you know not what empowers you, but you will find it. And when you do, you will make it tell you why.

Edit: and on that cheerful note, welcome to the forums!

I actually helped a 12 year old girl create Elsa for pathfinder.

A flat out sorceress ice elemental bloodline, starting with elemental focus (ice) and spell focus evocation.

Her first level spells were freezing hands and sleep.

When she hits 8th lvl, she's taking wall of ice. And her gm is letting her summon ice elementals with summon monster.

Add max ranks in craft (ice sculpture), and she will be literally able to do all the things elsa can in the movie.

[eggynack]

People tend to dislike Mystic Theurge and other theurge classes in general, because without early entry shenanigans you lose out on higher level spells in exchange for the ability to cast more lower level spells.

Not that many more spells overall either, because you're doubling a relatively low number. The way I think of the class' problems, the two main mechanical reasons you'd want to go theurge is because of this stated reason, that you just want a lot of spells, which doesn't really offer anything crazy longevity-wise, and because you want more variety in your spells. To that latter reason, I'd argue that you're not actually increasing versatility compared to a straight wizard or cleric (or druid or archivist). Wizard has a lot of crossover with divine stuff, because they just have the best list, so you wouldn't even be getting that crazy a versatility level if you didn't lose caster levels. But you are losing caster levels, and that in itself represents a loss of versatility. After all, a wizard 9 can do not only more powerful things, but also more diverse things, than a wizard 8. Teleport isn't an upgrade to dimension door, but a whole new mode of problem solving unto itself. And mystic theurge loses way more than one caster level, dropping behind by two full spell levels half the time.

So, you're not getting that much more longevity, I'm convinced that you're actually losing versatility, and you're clearly behind on power, and of those three things the latter two are way more relevant. So, mystic theurge kinda sucks. I haven't even gone into the fact that upping your spells/day doesn't necessarily increase longevity. Because one major side effect of power is that you need fewer spells to accomplish the same amount of stuff, and skipping theurge ups power a great deal, it's possible that the theurge is taking up a greater percentage of total spells on a given encounter. Therefore, theurge without early entry or unconventional class choices (I've seen cool things using ur-priest and sublime chord) doesn't do much worth recommending.

[Kaje]

Do you have Dragonlance? Favored Soul or cleric 4/ church inquisitor 1/ Ordained Champion 3/ Knight of the Crown 1/ Knight of the Sword 3/ Knight of the Rose is a great holy general.

[Darrin]

It looks like they are thin in the arcane and meatbag departments, so a standard Sorcadin might work well here, I think:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Or how about a Jade Phoenix Gish:

Wizard 6/Crusader 1/JPM 5/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 2

[Kaje]

Or how about a Jade Phoenix Gish:

Wizard 6/Crusader 1/JPM 5/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 2

Swap that wizard out for wu jen. That's a fun one.

[Sandsarecool]

Firstly, thank you all for the help you've given me so far. I now have a lot to think about.


People tend to dislike Mystic Theurge and other theurge classes in general, because without early entry shenanigans you lose out on higher level spells in exchange for the ability to cast more lower level spells.
No high level spells? Now I understand. Thank you.


Do you have Dragonlance? Favored Soul or cleric 4/ church inquisitor 1/ Ordained Champion 3/ Knight of the Crown 1/ Knight of the Sword 3/ Knight of the Rose is a great holy general.
Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Kalamar, Rokugan, they're all in the massive horde of books under the protective gaze of the players. Unless I say otherwise, assume the book's in there. I'd be rather impressed if it wasn't. Really. on a side note, BOOK FORT!


Well, from what I see, you've got a skill-monkey with the Factotum, while the Cleric and Druid seem to be frontline/healing, possibly with a bit of buffing and summoning. This means that from a purely optimization standpoint, you'd probably want to go to battlefield control.

It looks like they are thin in the arcane and meatbag departments.
Actually, due to the very nature of the campaign, most of these characters are have either the capability of being more-or-less self-sufficient or have been built out to fill two roles. Now I've got to study their builds a bit more closely, I can conclude the following: The Druid deals primarily with frontline combat and summoning as one would expect, but takes spells designed for battlefield control. The RKV specialises in buffs (mostly with spells) and to a lesser extent battlefield control (mostly with feat and equipment choice), but also doubles as a healer and white raven tactics stuff. Mr. Sneaky (I just can't call something a rogue when it has less that 1/4 of its levels in Rogue) is our trapfinder, our scout, our primary linguist, and doubles up as a (very) minor spell caster (with mostly 1st lvl divine and up to 3rd level arcane and phrenic stuff), and a combat medic - though he focuses on removing status conditions. The factotum picks up any slack that is needed to be covered, as one would expect. Generally speaking, you can switch the Druid and RKV roles' around; the same goes for the other two (though one is more versatile while the other is more combat-oriented in this case). It would appear to me that whatever role I'd jump into would also serve 'breathing room' to one or more of the other party member, allowing them to return to their normal specialisations. Everybody has atleast minimal OOC healing and damage reduction, in the land of 3-6/- or 10-20/. Or both.

So, update time: You know every party has that guy? Y'know, the one who always always roles really high? Well, he offered to role my ability scores (and everybody else consented, so tis all good) and well, I didn't get the numbers I was expecting. in order, the numbers I have to work with are:
18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 15.
...First guy I've ever seen roll two 24s on a 4d6 in a row.
(These are before racial modifiers, of course.)
Though this hopefully means my dump stat isn't really a dump stat. MAD builds could just work!

This reminds me of the time someone managed to roll SEVEN natural ones on a d20 in a row. I believe it started something like: "Oh $@;£! DISGUISE ALIGNMENT! DISGUISE ALIGNMENT!", soon followed by a dismal bluff check. Mayhem from there. But I have gone on a side note again...


However, that doesn't mean you should. What you should do is find a role you [I]enjoy playing and stick with it. Want to bend the wills of anyone who opposes you? Be a Psion (Telepath), or a Beguiler. Want to make things explode? Warmage, Psion (Kineticist), maybe even Sorcerer into Incantantrix. Want to summon undead minions? Cleric or Dread Necromancer. Really, this is not a question I can answer for you.
Eh, but I LIKE IT ALL! Besides, I am an indecisive man. Arcane caster/Psionically active/Bo9S seems to be the general trend, so I'm looking at the options in there. I SUPPOSE I prefer more options to raw damage, which would (should) make me less proficient in the front lines... (Though the DM is sure to hammer me if he can't take a good ol' beating or two.)

[Draconium]

Eh, but I LIKE IT ALL! Besides, I am an indecisive man. Arcane caster/Psionically active/Bo9S seems to be the general trend, so I'm looking at the options in there. I SUPPOSE I prefer more options to raw damage, which would (should) make me less proficient in the front lines... (Though the DM is sure to hammer me if he can't take a good ol' beating or two.)

Indecisive? Man, I know how that feels. I've taken hours (no, I'm not exaggerating) longer at simply deciding what I want to build than the rest of my IRL group more times than I'd care to admit. :smalltongue:

If you don't want to focus on raw damage, I would stay away from Warblade, Crusader, and Warmage - that's basically all those three are focused on. If you want to mix it up on the front lines as melee, I would recommend either a Swordsage (they get enough maneuvers that are useful at utility as well as combat), or to Gish it up. Otherwise, go straight spontaneous/psionic and never look back.

Personally, I highly prefer the Psionic classes to the Arcane and Divine, but they aren't for everyone. A Psion or Sorcerer won't be as widely useful as a prepared caster in terms of utility or flexibility, but you can still pick up a couple of powers/spells to help out in that department.

Gishes are fairly complicated (unless you go for a Duskblade or Psychic Warrior), but they can be fun to play. Remember that most of your combat spells should be buffs for you. Spontaneous casters are usually good for this too, as you're probably going to cast the same spells over and over.

So, the main question I see - do you want to focus on being on the front lines or not? You can build to survive either way, but a good build for you will change depending on how much you want to get your own hands dirty.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Eh, but I LIKE IT ALL! Besides, I am an indecisive man.
How about a spellhoarding loredrake wyrmling steel dragon 4/wizard 1/warblade 1/swiftblade 9? ECL 17, but if you can buy off the LA, you get to add two more levels (Spelldancer!). It's a monster, it's a caster, it's an initiator, it's int-based with decent skill lists throughout. Only 10th-level wizard casting, but dragon! Incidentally, the build works well with Jade Phoenix Mage (if you want to be a firebird dragon), or the classic Abjurant Champion, perhaps with Incantatrix.

[Sandsarecool]

Indecisive? Man, I know how that feels. I've taken hours (no, I'm not exaggerating) longer at simply deciding what I want to build than the rest of my IRL group more times than I'd care to admit. :smalltongue:
Yay! I'm not the only one!


Personally, I highly prefer the Psionic classes to the Arcane and Divine, but they aren't for everyone. Oh? And may I enquire as to why?


So, the main question I see - do you want to focus on being on the front lines or not? You can build to survive either way, but a good build for you will change depending on how much you want to get your own hands dirty. Hm.
Hmm.Hm.Hmm.Hm.Hmm.Hm.Hm.Hm.Hm.
I suppose, truly I am indifferent to this. Though, if I don the my cap of +1 Metagaming, I suppose the answer lies in what the other party members revert to. A front line fighter would allow the RKV to focus more on her own buffs, giving her more freedom, OR the complete opposite and she goes battlefield control to support. I can reasonably expect the druid to stock up on a handful more blasting spells, (so fewer battlefield control spells) for the ranged versatility a wolf usually lacks. Sneaky gets a NEW flanking buddy, though it's not like he needs a new friend. as for the factotum, I doubt it'll make much of an overall difference.

If the hands prefer to to be clean and stay clean, then RKV goes forward, with all that entails, Druid charges more as I'd expect her to expect me to buff thing-a-majigs. Sneak gets a new friend OOC, which gives me ideas for roleplay. Factotum will be factotum, though probably more offensive as there's a new target on the block.

If I go with the flow and stay in the middle, then hm. I get a little bit of both worlds, but it's certainly the hardest to guess how things will happen. I have not high level divination spells at my disposal either to find out. :smallfrown:

...Overall, I think I bend towards staying at the back of the party. So... hands clean, most of the time?


How about a spellhoarding loredrake wyrmling steel dragon 4/wizard 1/warblade 1/swiftblade 9? ECL 17, but if you can buy off the LA, you get to add two more levels (Spelldancer!). It's a monster, it's a caster, it's an initiator, it's int-based with decent skill lists throughout. Only 10th-level wizard casting, but dragon! Incidentally, the build works well with Jade Phoenix Mage (if you want to be a firebird dragon), or the classic Abjurant Champion, perhaps with Incantatrix. I'd be arriving late to the dragon party if I did that, though I could be the only one who takes full advantage of it... Also, DM has agreed to buy off 3 LA on the spot, instead of me buying off two and then... yeah. So there's that. But another interesting option.
And while this account is new, I've been lurking around for a few years now. Despite the relatively high optimisation level, I'm pretty sure loredrake is still going to receive more than a few raised eyebrows.

It's a monster.
"We're all monsters."

[Jack_McSnatch]

I'd suggest a duskblade build. It's a good introduction to both magic and melee, and makes a good fifth man. You only really want 13 levelsin it though. That'll give you 4th level spells, a BaB of +13, and the ability to full attack with a spell channelled through your sword. Dip into barbarian, take the rage mage PrC.

[One Step Two]

I posted this build in another thread, since you prefer to keep your hands clean how about this:


For a game that involves traversing the planes, I am going to offer a build idea that straddles a little on the 'May get declined' side of things.

You want to build Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1/Malconvoker 1. The best part being that Malconvoker is 9 levels, so you don't miss anything except the Sublime chord class features after 1st, but it's the spells we want most.

You start life as a somewhat powerful buffer/social character, and then start using Malconvoker for some minionmancy, the idea mostly is to use your nice high charisma to bind any kind of outsider to act as guides to the planes, but for the most part to help round out what your party needs. Need a bruiser? Hezrous are hardy, need some guidance on the plane of fire? Salamanders. That sort of thing.

The really cool factor, is that you can use your improved summoning and binding abilities to build the most eclectic and awesome band in all the Great Wheel! You take ranks in Perform (sing), a Lillend on lead guitar, An Axiomatic Girallon on Drums, and Barbazu on Bass, with Succubi Backup dancers, you'll be sold out everywhere!

On the optimization side of things, talk to your DM, see if you can use the Gestalt rules for the bard levels, pick up either rogue levels for more skills, or better yet, Marshal for the Fort saves, and really make those Charisma bonuses synergies

I hope this gives you some inspiration :smallbiggrin:

Since the person I suggested that for was trying to aim a little lower on the power spectrum, this is a more amped up version of the build: Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 1/Malconvoker 6-9

If you want, you can pick up the Divine Bard variant, get the band back together, and be on a mission from god :smallcool:

[Draconium]

Yay! I'm not the only one!

It's how you know you're in good company. :smallwink:


Oh? And may I enquire as to why?

Personal preference, really. I think the system of using power points and augmentation is more fun and flexible than just having X spells per day.


Hm.
Hmm.Hm.Hmm.Hm.Hmm.Hm.Hm.Hm.Hm.
I suppose, truly I am indifferent to this. Though, if I don the my cap of +1 Metagaming, I suppose the answer lies in what the other party members revert to. A front line fighter would allow the RKV to focus more on her own buffs, giving her more freedom, OR the complete opposite and she goes battlefield control to support. I can reasonably expect the druid to stock up on a handful more blasting spells, (so fewer battlefield control spells) for the ranged versatility a wolf usually lacks. Sneaky gets a NEW flanking buddy, though it's not like he needs a new friend. as for the factotum, I doubt it'll make much of an overall difference.

If the hands prefer to to be clean and stay clean, then RKV goes forward, with all that entails, Druid charges more as I'd expect her to expect me to buff thing-a-majigs. Sneak gets a new friend OOC, which gives me ideas for roleplay. Factotum will be factotum, though probably more offensive as there's a new target on the block.

If I go with the flow and stay in the middle, then hm. I get a little bit of both worlds, but it's certainly the hardest to guess how things will happen. I have not high level divination spells at my disposal either to find out. .:smallfrown:

...Overall, I think I bend towards staying at the back of the party. So... hands clean, most of the time?

Okay, here's what I recommend, then.

Play a Psion. For race, go with Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans). As an immediate action, if you get hit, use your racial Resilience ability. You should have more than enough PP to spend on it. Congratulations, you have built-in survivability. From there, it's up to you how to build it - just remember that regardless of what discipline you choose, you should have enough powers to be useful in any situation (if not extremely useful). Pick up Expanded Knowledge a few times if you need to - Astral Constructs are fun.

Or go with Sorcerer into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Costly in skills and feats, but you basically get to NOPE anything attacking you up to 4 times a day. Also a bit cheesy, so check with your DM.


How about a spellhoarding loredrake wyrmling steel dragon 4/wizard 1/warblade 1/swiftblade 9? ECL 17, but if you can buy off the LA, you get to add two more levels (Spelldancer!). It's a monster, it's a caster, it's an initiator, it's int-based with decent skill lists throughout. Only 10th-level wizard casting, but dragon! Incidentally, the build works well with Jade Phoenix Mage (if you want to be a firebird dragon), or the classic Abjurant Champion, perhaps with Incantatrix.

Well, obviously, playing the best creature type is always a good time. You do know that I'm going to have to use this myself now?

[Sandsarecool]

I'd suggest a duskblade build. It's a good introduction to both magic and melee, and makes a good fifth man. You only really want 13 levelsin it though. That'll give you 4th level spells, a BaB of +13, and the ability to full attack with a spell channelled through your sword. Dip into barbarian, take the rage mage PrC.
A fair point, but the concept of 'Fifth Man' is an abstract one at best. If we lose more party members in the next part of the adventure, the party is expected to pick up the slack from there. There was this one time where the PCs were playing murder mystery detectives, and they lost their tracker, face and caster (they only had the one at the time). It quickly spiralled into a Max Payne style crusade against the criminal underworld of a metropolis, as, despite the party's best efforts, the surviving members lacked the skills required to carry on following the path they were on. And no face means unfriendly NPCs. Recipe for disaster.

[Sandsarecool]

Alright, update time:
So far, It seems like I'm now leaning towards an Arcane gish, probably with a wizard or a sorcerer as the arcane component. My stat rolls should make being MAD not too much of a liability, which is good.
Now the bad news.
Due to uh, rather embarrassing reasons, it seems like I now am forced into playing some form of lycanthrope. Note this is NOT a therianthrope; it must be a lycanthrope. Me being me, made my voice heard to the DM (I'd already told him I wanted to play a form of caster). He refuses to move on that area, but has agreed to impose no RHD (so no dead animal levels, nor the HP involved),only the LA, and he's allowing me to add full arcane/divine/manifesting progression to ONE prestige class. It seems like a fair enough trade, though it means +0 (+1?)LA else I can't buy it off in time. With this information, what would a good build now be? Some of the party members recommended either Warshaper or Abjurant Champion, but I am not well versed in this.

EDIT: I can has spell Engrish gut.

[Draconium]

Alright, update time:
So far, It seems like I'm now leaning towards an arcane gish, probably wizard or sorcerer as the arcane component. My stat rolls should make being MAD not too much of a liability, which is good.
Now the bad news.
Due to uh, rather embarrassing reasons, it seems like I now am forced into playing some form of lycanthrope. Note this is NOT a therianthrope; it must be a lycanthrope. Me being me, made my voice heard to the DM (I'd already told him I wanted to play a form of caster). He refuses to move on that area, but has agreed to impose no RHD, only the LA
has agreed to impose no RHD (so no dead animal levels, nor the HP involved), and he's allowing me to add full arcane/divine/manifesting progression to ONE prestige class. It seems like a fair enough trade, though it means +0 (+1?)LA else I can't buy it off in time. With this information, what would a good build now be? Some of the party members recommended wither Warshaper or Abjurant Champion, but I am not well versed in this.

First of all - ew. Lycanthropes are cool, but they really aren't implemented all that well for PCs in D&D. At least you don't have to take the RHD, so that makes things better. My only advice is to pick an animal the same size as your base race, so that you can still use all your equipment in your hybrid form. Also, why do you have to play a lycanthrope?

Warshaper's a pretty cool class, allowing you to grow extra natural weapons, gain Str and Con, extra reach, Fast Healing, and immunity to Crits - but only when you aren't in your natural form. Also, it doesn't advance caster levels, and a lot of the abilities will differ depending on the DM. It's a nice little class, but for a gish, there are better things to take.

Abjurant Champion, meanwhile is THE gish class. The party is right to suggest it. It advances all your caster levels, adds your class level to abjuration spells that add an armor or shield bonus to your AC (such as the Shield spell), and will let you quicken and extend such spells for free as well. Most gish builds should have at least a couple of levels into it.

As for adding full spellcasting progression to any prestige class? You could add it to Warshaper, if you really wanted to focus on natural attacks. It wouldn't be such a bad pick in that case. Otherwise, may I recommend Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)? It already had partial spellcasting progression, and the features are really good. Full casting on top would absolutely rock your build.

Finally, take a look through the Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook). That should give you some decent advice on how to build your character - handbooks are always a useful resource.

EDIT: Almost forgot - there's the Black Blood Hunter prestige class from Player's Guide to Faerun. It's an entire PrC based off making your Lycanthropcy (is that a word?) stronger. Note that you may have to adapt it, though - I don't know if you use the Faerun deities, and since you have to be Good, dealing Vile damage may not sit well with the rest of the party. But if you can, and you want to play up your lycanthrope side, it's not a terrible idea - after adding your spellcasting to it.

[Kaje]

Add casting to warshaper. That sounds fantastic.

[Sandsarecool]

First of all - ew. Lycanthropes are cool, but they really aren't implemented all that well for PCs in D&D. At least you don't have to take the RHD, so that makes things better. My only advice is to pick an animal the same size as your base race, so that you can still use all your equipment in your hybrid form. Also, why do you have to play a lycanthrope? Dearest, I said LYCANTHROPE, specifically throwing out 'therianthrope'. as in, wereWOLF. As for why, let's just say, uh, the party's got some explaining to do...:smallredface:


Abjurant Champion, meanwhile is THE gish class. The party is right to suggest it. It advances all your caster levels, adds your class level to abjuration spells that add an armor or shield bonus to your AC (such as the Shield spell), and will let you quicken and extend such spells for free as well. Most gish builds should have at least a couple of levels into it. Nice to know they aren't leading me astray. And thank you for the summary.


As for adding full spellcasting progression to any prestige class? You could add it to Warshaper, if you really wanted to focus on natural attacks. It wouldn't be such a bad pick in that case. Otherwise, may I recommend [DAMN IT, LINKS]Swiftblade? It already had partial spellcasting progression, and the features are really good. Full casting on top would absolutely rock your build. Swiftblade's THAT good, then? It'll take a more throughout look at it and fit it in.


Finally, take a look through the [Nooo Why] Gish Handbook. That should give you some decent advice on how to build your character - handbooks are always a useful resource. I was sifting through that before you'd posted this. Nice to know I'm on the ball.


EDIT: Almost forgot - there's the Black Blood Hunter prestige class from Player's Guide to Faerun. It's an entire PrC based off making your Lycanthropcy (is that a word?) stronger. Note that you may have to adapt it, though - I don't know if you use the Faerun deities, and since you have to be Good, dealing Vile damage may not sit well with the rest of the party. But if you can, and you want to play up your lycanthrope side, it's not a terrible idea - after adding your spellcasting to it. Faerun deities aren't a problem. Vile damage, though... it sounds... evil. Very much so. Party's willing to drop down from exalted to good from time to time, but what is that? I'll have to look through for it.

[Kaje]

Dearest, I said LYCANTHROPE, specifically throwing out 'therianthrope'. as in, wereWOLF. As for why, let's just say, uh, the party's got some explaining to do...:smallredface:

No need for the condescension. You're the one confusing real world terms with D&D terms.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Swiftblade's THAT good, then? It'll take a more throughout look at it and fit it in.
You get 2d6 skirmish, +2 to attack, AC and reflex saves, +20' to all speeds, your casting stat to initiative, (Ex) freedom of movement and 50% miss chance, and an extra standard action per turn. Other than that, it's not very impressive.

[Erit]

Vile damage, though... it sounds... evil. Very much so. Party's willing to drop down from exalted to good from time to time, but what is that? I'll have to look through for it.

Vile damage is described in a few different books, but the one most relevant to your concern is that it's in the Book of Vile Darkness, the Evil counterpart to the Book of Exalted Deeds. Vile damage is the same as regular damage, except that it cannot be healed by any method aside from divine intervention unless the victim is within the boundaries of a Consecrate or a Hallow spell. It's fluffed as being so great a violation of the spirit/body that it cannot be undone outside a holy place.

So... not Exalted in the least, fluff-wise.

[Draconium]

Dearest, I said LYCANTHROPE, specifically throwing out 'therianthrope'. as in, wereWOLF. As for why, let's just say, uh, the party's got some explaining to do...:smallredface:

Lycanthrope and therianthrope mean exactly the same thing in D&D, silly. :smalltongue: And yes, that does mean that the game's etymology is wrong. So let's just call a wolf a wolf, shall we?


Nice to know they aren't leading me astray. And thank you for the summary.

No problem.


Swiftblade's THAT good, then? It'll take a more throughout look at it and fit it in.

Well, it's not gonna fit in every build, but it still offers some pretty nice tricks.


I was sifting through that before you'd posted this. Nice to know I'm on the ball.

There's a handbook for basically anything you want to do in D&D, I find. As long as it's not impossible by the rules.


Faerun deities aren't a problem. Vile damage, though... it sounds... evil. Very much so. Party's willing to drop down from exalted to good from time to time, but what is that? I'll have to look through for it.

Vile damage is basically "Evil: The Damage Type." So probably not a good thing to bring into a semi-Exalted party.

[Sandsarecool]

Vile damage is basically "Evil: The Damage Type." So probably not a good thing to bring into a semi-Exalted party.
Well, Damn. :smallfrown:


Lycanthrope and therianthrope mean exactly the same thing in D&D, silly. :smalltongue:

No need for the condescension. You're the one confusing real world terms with D&D terms.
Heh. I suppose.:smallsmile: Though I kinda thought I'd try to avoid all the mumbo-jumbo by throwing it around in the first place. Also, reading back, my previous post sounded rather... rude. Apologies if anybody took it that way; that was not the intention. I do not have a way with words.


And yes, that does mean that the game's etymology is wrong.
Perhaps so, but it's atleast rather obvious why - it's the better known term, despite how wrong it is, meaning people grasp the idea more readily.

So let's just call a wolf a wolf, shall we?
To quote from the party's now deceased Warblade: "Je me no-e understand-e". Seriously though, You have me slightly confused with what you want from me from this sentence.

The correct use of terms has been beaten into me. Also, somebody shoved 'The Complete guide to Werewolves' in my face the other day, for some light reading. And well, it disapproves of the colloquial term. A lot.

The etymology of the word “werewolf,” like the strange hybrid the name suggests, is difficult to define. The word “wolf” is no mystery. The word “wer,” however, may have come from the German “wehr” meaning “defense group of men,” or the Prussian “wer” meaning “man,” or the Old English “weri” meaning to wear. Another common term for werewolves is “lycanthrope.” Technically, it means wolf (“lycan”) man (“thrope”). However, the term has become muddled. Lycanthropy is also a clinically defined insanity wherein a person believes he becomes a wolf under certain circumstances. Technically, the term that should be used for all other shapeshifting creatures is “theiranthrope” (“animal-man”). Too many books on lycanthropes mix the werewolf with other shapeshifting legends that have nothing to do with wolves. Let there be no doubt—the peculiar mixture of humanoid and wolf is a unique combination that is by no means representative of transformation myths as a whole. -The Complete guide to Werewolves

EDIT: I do NOT like these words!

[Manyasone]

I actually helped a 12 year old girl create Elsa for pathfinder.

A flat out sorceress ice elemental bloodline, starting with elemental focus (ice) and spell focus evocation.

Her first level spells were freezing hands and sleep.

When she hits 8th lvl, she's taking wall of ice. And her gm is letting her summon ice elementals with summon monster.

Add max ranks in craft (ice sculpture), and she will be literally able to do all the things elsa can in the movie.

This is al sorts of awesome. But I would rather use spheres of power for this ;-)

[Vizzerdrix]

So a werewolf huh. Ive seen a feat in a faerun book for casting that replaces words and hand movements with animal sounds and stuff.

Anyways, I think psionics has a bunch of good low level buffs for natural attacks, but that would put you in the front lines and you wish to hang back so that may not help you much. Or are you gishing?

Troll blooded would get you Regeneration 1 and that would pair well with the DR granted by lycanthropy. It would cost you 2 feats and I think you have to be human though.

Lycanthropy adds 2 to wisdom so even with one of your lower stats their, it will still be beefy.

[Sandsarecool]

So a werewolf huh. I've seen a feat in a faerun book for casting that replaces words and hand movements with animal sounds and stuff.

Anyways, I think psionics has a bunch of good low level buffs for natural attacks, but that would put you in the front lines and you wish to hang back so that may not help you much. Or are you gishing?

Lycanthropy adds 2 to wisdom so even with one of your lower stats their, it will still be beefy.

We've got tons and tons of stuff, WotC or otherwise, which deal with various forms of casting in situations like these. (The wolf and the griffon are casting spells somehow, right?) Should be little more trouble than a feat or two. Gishing is probably my best option as the DM is evil in that regard. Staying at the back does not stay that way for long. I want to focus with the magicz, though.


Troll blooded would get you Regeneration 1 and that would pair well with the DR granted by lycanthropy. It would cost you 2 feats and I think you have to be human though.
This is a feat chain? If I can fit it in somehow, I'll certainly look into it.

I now have permission to take things like Quasilycanthrope, but afflicted lycanthropy is a no-go.

[One Step Two]

Alright, update time:
So far, It seems like I'm now leaning towards an Arcane gish, probably with a wizard or a sorcerer as the arcane component. My stat rolls should make being MAD not too much of a liability, which is good.
Now the bad news.
Due to uh, rather embarrassing reasons, it seems like I now am forced into playing some form of lycanthrope. Note this is NOT a therianthrope; it must be a lycanthrope. Me being me, made my voice heard to the DM (I'd already told him I wanted to play a form of caster). He refuses to move on that area, but has agreed to impose no RHD (so no dead animal levels, nor the HP involved),only the LA, and he's allowing me to add full arcane/divine/manifesting progression to ONE prestige class. It seems like a fair enough trade, though it means +0 (+1?)LA else I can't buy it off in time. With this information, what would a good build now be? Some of the party members recommended either Warshaper or Abjurant Champion, but I am not well versed in this.

EDIT: I can has spell Engrish gut.


Are you an afflicted or natural lycanthrope? The Afflicted has +2 LA, an the Natural has +3 so that can have an effect on things.

Being a Lycanthrope gives you some advantages to being a Gish, purely because of the stat gains when in hybrid form, for wolf specifically, +2 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con. Warshaper is very attractive, found in complete warrior, it does a few things, but chiefly, +4 to Str and Con when not in your base form. So fighting in your Hybrid form nets you: +6 Str, +4 dex, +8 Con. Other fun things include being immune to critical while shape shifted, and being able to make concentration checks to heal yourself like the T-1000.

Edit: Do you mean this quasilycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a)?

If so, Warshaper still works, but the stat bumps remain +4 str and +4 con

So building a Wizard 8/ Warshaper 5/ Abjurant Champion is definetly going to work for you.

Hulk out into your Hybrid form, buff yourself, and go to town on emeies for fun and profit. Fun spells to help are Fire Shield and Acid sheathe, so even if they can hit you, they take a tonne of damage in return. If you want to use Melee Weapons instead of your claws, I definetly recommend the Smiting Spell metamagic from Players Handbook 2, it lets you charge melee weapons with touch spells so you can smack people with your spells while you sword them, and if your DM may be lenient enough to let you claw them with them anyway.

[Sandsarecool]

*Snip*
Edit: Do you mean this quasilycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a)?
I believe so, yes.


If so, Warshaper still works, but the stat bumps remain +4 str and +4 con

So building a Wizard 8/ Warshaper 5/ Abjurant Champion is definitely going to work for you.

Hulk out into your Hybrid form, buff yourself, and go to town on enemies for fun and profit. Fun spells to help are Fire Shield and Acid sheathe, so even if they can hit you, they take a tonne of damage in return. If you want to use Melee Weapons instead of your claws, I definitely recommend the Smiting Spell metamagic from Players Handbook 2, it lets you charge melee weapons with touch spells so you can smack people with your spells while you sword them, and if your DM may be lenient enough to let you claw them with them anyway.
There are a few other options out there, but they're mostly 3rd party things, and I haven't mastered the whole spoiler thing to shove them all into just yet. DM is quite lenient if we can make a good argument for it. NA are accepted in almost all places an unarmed strike would work, for things such as shadow hand manoeuvres. I get the feeling the party would prefer something no so far removed, though, for the RP. Still, the option is there.
It'll take a few more diplomacy checks to see what else I can squeeze, but I'll see how it goes.

[One Step Two]

I believe so, yes.


There are a few other options out there, but they're mostly 3rd party things, and I haven't mastered the whole spoiler thing to shove them all into just yet. DM is quite lenient if we can make a good argument for it. NA are accepted in almost all places an unarmed strike would work, for things such as shadow hand manoeuvres. I get the feeling the party would prefer something no so far removed, though, for the RP. Still, the option is there.
It'll take a few more diplomacy checks to see what else I can squeeze, but I'll see how it goes.

Awesome, the +1 LA is easy to buy off, and not as impactful, the minor shape change auto-qualifies you from warshaper which is also nice. Also, reading that template, you can use your minor shape change ability to simply give yourself wolf fangs or a tail only, and still benefit from everything warshaper brings, because RAW. The fact your DM is letting you take full casting with it is double plus good.

The only thing you might find yourself pressed for is getting a Martial weapons proficency for Abjurant Champion, but I think there's a way to trade your familiar for a feat.

But other than that, Psychic Warrior 6/ Warshaper (advancing Manifester levels) 5/Psychic Warrior +n is a good pick too, and if your DM is happy to rule that Mage slayer doesnt affect your Manifester level, you can be a real threat to anything that tries to wiggle their fingers offensively.

[Hiro Quester]

Seconding some kind of sorcerer swiftbkade. The class is pretty darn awesome; enough to take lost caster levels for.

If you can add full caster progression to a PrC then this is definitely one to consider seriously.

[Sandsarecool]

I though Quasilycanthrope specifically called out no NA? Though I'm away from any books and I've school in the next 5 minutes so I can't check. I'll edit this post later in the day.

[Draconium]

I though Quasilycanthrope specifically called out no NA? Though I'm away from any books and I've school in the next 5 minutes so I can't check. I'll edit this post later in the day.

Doesn't matter - Warshaper will let you grow your own Natural Attacks. Which I'm assuming is what NA means, based on the context.

[Sandsarecool]

Doesn't matter - Warshaper will let you grow your own Natural Attacks. Which I'm assuming is what NA means, based on the context.
Free natural attacks, yay. Now, question is what I do with the rest of the LA I've got... I guess I might as well spend it, considering the high level we're at, and LA buyoff is still a thing. Decisions, decisions...

But now, it poses the very real question: Warshaper or Swiftblade? I can only advance one's casting...
Out of interest, assuming I could advance them both with arcane spell progression, (not that I can, but y'know, it's FUN) how would things look? :smalltongue:

[One Step Two]

Free natural attacks, yay. Now, question is what I do with the rest of the LA I've got... I guess I might as well spend it, considering the high level we're at, and LA buyoff is still a thing. Decisions, decisions...

But now, it poses the very real question: Warshaper or Swiftblade? I can only advance one's casting...
Out of interest, assuming I could advance them both with arcane spell progression, (not that I can, but y'know, it's FUN) how would things look? :smalltongue:

Both classes have their merit, but if I was being honest, your best bet is actually going to be Full caster Swiftblade, purely because being able to access 9th level spells ontop of the power the swift blade brings is quite frankly insane.

Technically, you could have your cake and eat a few slices by going full caster Warshaper and making use of the Swiftblade handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=333.0) to play a balancing act with the levels in each,

As for the mention of the rest of the LA, what are you referring to exactly? Are you allowed free LA or is there something I missed in the first post?

[Sandsarecool]

Both classes have their merit, but if I was being honest, your best bet is actually going to be Full caster Swiftblade, purely because being able to access 9th level spells ontop of the power the swift blade brings is quite frankly insane.

Technically, you could have your cake and eat a few slices by going full caster Warshaper and making use of the Swiftblade handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=333.0) to play a balancing act with the levels in each,

As for the mention of the rest of the LA, what are you referring to exactly? Are you allowed free LA or is there something I missed in the first post?

A balancing act? Hm... This is going to take ages.
As for the LA, I'd already been given the go for up to 3 LA (that was way, way back), insta-bought off (a level early, too). I thought that I might as well take a favour from the DM until we start (at which point... things change.)

Any idea for a build? (or two, or many...)

EDIT: Is it just me, or do I always have these links open before you hand them over to me on a plate? Atleast I'm looking in the right areas.
I might go Abj Champion 4 instead of 5 as CL is my priority here, so there's that. Also If I play the balancing act, I'd have to drop Innervated Speed. Now, is that worth it...?

[One Step Two]

Templates of +2 that you may find of Worth:

Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm): Awesome boost to mental stats, Power Resistance and psi-like abilities

Half-Nymph (dragon 313): +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, low-light vision, you count as being fey, Awesome beauty su ability. Why is this only +2 LA you ask? Because Charisma is a dump stat.*

*Special build option if your DM is willing to allow it: Combine with Magic blooded (dragon magazine 306), a +0 LA for total stat array of: +2 Dex, +2 Int, +6 Charisma, Take the Battle Sorcerer variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer), for the loss of one spell known per level and 2 less spells per day, you get: Medium Base attack bonus, D8 hit dice, and ignore spell chance in light armor and a martial weapon proficency. Along with Metamagic specialist from Player Handbook 2 to drop your familiar to let you use metamagic without taking a full round to do it. Full casting on Swift blade and your build will look like this:

Sorcerer 7/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant champion 3*
*Extra cheese on top: If you're willing to live with +1 LA after all is said and done, grab the Fire-souled template for +4 more charisma and other nifty abilities (Dragon magazine 314)

[Sandsarecool]

Templates of +2 that you may find of Worth:

Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm): Awesome boost to mental stats, Power Resistance and psi-like abilities

Half-Nymph (dragon 313): +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, low-light vision, you count as being fey, Awesome beauty su ability. Why is this only +2 LA you ask? Because Charisma is a dump stat.*

*Special build option if your DM is willing to allow it: Combine with Magic blooded (dragon magazine 306), a +0 LA for total stat array of: +2 Dex, +2 Int, +6 Charisma, Take the Battle Sorcerer variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer), for the loss of one spell known per level and 2 less spells per day, you get: Medium Base attack bonus, D8 hit dice, and ignore spell chance in light armor and a martial weapon proficency. Along with Metamagic specialist from Player Handbook 2 to drop your familiar to let you use metamagic without taking a full round to do it. Full casting on Swift blade and your build will look like this:

(Battle?)Sorcerer 7/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant champion 3*
*Extra cheese on top: If you're willing to live with +1 LA after all is said and done, grab the Fire-souled template for +4 more charisma and other nifty abilities (Dragon magazine 314)
If we're going to template stack, we might as well go all out. any good +1s out there? :smalltongue: Phrenic was my original choice, but it may not be possible anymore; we'll see. And yeah, I was look at battle sorcerer, too. HOW ARE YOU DOING THIS?!
Also, how much is Innervated Speed worth? Time stop is great, but we've got two guys who've got similar abilities. I toy with many possibilities.

[One Step Two]

If we're going to template stack, we might as well go all out. any good +1s out there? :smalltongue: Phrenic was my original choice, but it may not be possible anymore; we'll see. And yeah, I was look at battle sorcerer, too. HOW ARE YOU DOING THIS?!

It's in the name, one step ahead :smallwink: As for more templates for charisma stacking the only one that comes to immediately to mind is Draconic from Races of the Dragon: +1 LA for +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, claw attacks and natural armor, and a few other small goodies. But for a Sorcerer, it gives you Dragonblood subtype giving you access to nifty spells and feats from Races of the Dragon.

So, a Draconic Magic Blooded Half-Nymph who has been granted the Fire soul template has the following:
+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Int, +12 Cha

At that point, the only way to have better charisma is to be a Succubus (with those tempaltes)

[Kaje]

And of course, battle sorcerers get to be stalwart sorcerers for free.

[Sandsarecool]

It's in the name, one step ahead :smallwink: As for more templates for charisma stacking the only one that comes to immediately to mind is Draconic from Races of the Dragon: +1 LA for +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, claw attacks and natural armor, and a few other small goodies. But for a Sorcerer, it gives you Dragonblood subtype giving you access to nifty spells and feats from Races of the Dragon.

So, a Draconic Magic Blooded Half-Nymph who has been granted the Fire soul template has the following:
+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Int, +12 Cha

At that point, the only way to have better charisma is to be a Succubus (with those tempaltes)
...I wonder how crazed with power and to what extent I'll bend over trying to shove everything in the build for teh LOLz.

[Draconium]

...I wonder how crazed with power and to what extent I'll bend over trying to shove everything in the build for teh LOLz.

Welcome to the Playground.

[Calthropstu]

I feel posting in this thread should give you prestige of some kind. It's just so... classy.

[Sandsarecool]

...I can't stop laughing. Oh Gods, what have you done? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!

Right, focus: Battle Sorcerer 4 Gives me the +3 BAB for Swiftblade; I'll throw feats at it there to make it work and retrain them later... I've seen enough early entry threads... From there I'll either take Swiftblade to 6 or 10; I'm still not sure which way this build goes...
Seeing as I want magics, Abj. Champ. 5 SHOULD be largely redundant to me, so I'll avoid, generally. ( A filler is a filler, though.)
Now then... That leaves me with atleast B.Sorcerer 4/Swiftblade 6/Abj.Champ.4/Advance Casting 6/. I haven't even checked if this works...

...I forget what I was writing. These negative rolls to edit, man, it's harsh.
EDIT: I can count.
eDIT 2: Wait, Wha?

[One Step Two]

...I can't stop laughing. Oh Gods, what have you done? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!

Right, focus: Battle Sorcerer 4 Gives me the +3 BAB for Swiftblade; I'll throw feats at it there to make it work and retrain them later... I've seen enough early entry threads... From there I'll either take Swiftblade to 6 or 10; I'm still not sure which way this build goes...

Two things:
First: As mentioned above, Stalwart Sorcerer from Compelte Mage is a little better, while it doesnt get Medium Base attack bonus and armored casting, it does get extra HP, and weapon proficencies, but in exchange, you only lose 1 spell known of your highest level (to a minimum of 1), and no slots lost.

Second: You still need atleast Sorcerer 6 to get into swiftblade, because of the requirement to cast all 3rd level spells as haste.

[Sandsarecool]

Two things:
First: As mentioned above, Stalwart Sorcerer from Compelte Mage is a little better, while it doesnt get Medium Base attack bonus and armored casting, it does get extra HP, and weapon proficencies, but in exchange, you only lose 1 spell known of your highest level, and no slots lost.

Second: You still need atleast Sorcerer 6 to get into swiftblade, because of the requirement to cast all 3rd level spells as haste.

3rd Party gives me ways around that. MWAHAHAHAHA. I can get my hands on a single slot space (who balanced this?!); and take another feat to throw haste in it.
I can always make up for a few of those crucial slots with feats like arcane disciple and extra spell.

[One Step Two]

3rd Party gives me ways around that. MWAHAHAHAHA.

Ah, carry on then!

[Kaje]

They're not mutually exclusive. You can add stalwart onto a battle sorcerer at no cost.

[One Step Two]

They're not mutually exclusive. You can add stalwart onto a battle sorcerer at no cost.

True, but youre losing 1 more spell known that way. Yes, yes, I know, feats and know stones, but still it's worth mentioning.

Though, it is hilarious that you can start having more HP than the party fighter if you roll well enough.

[Sandsarecool]

They're not mutually exclusive. You can add stalwart onto a battle sorcerer at no cost.
Oh? Are you sure? That seems, like, real shady, man! Though it's not like I'm going down the same path now...

[Kaje]

No. Stalwart loses a spell known, minimum 1. Battle Sorcerer only knows 1 in the first place. It's free.

EDIT: Well damn. I could've sworn it was free, but it turns out you do lose 1 level 1 and 1 level 9 spell (at 20th level). I'd probably still do it, but I wouldn't blame anyone if they didn't

[Erit]

Oh? Are you sure? That seems, like, real shady, man! Though it's not like I'm going down the same path now.

You sack another one of your highest-level spells for two extra hit points per level and a free Weapon Focus. It's not that bad if you're doing pure gish, but depending on the build that floating spells-known malus can sting.

[Sandsarecool]

You sack another one of your highest-level spells for two extra hit points per level and a free Weapon Focus. It's not that bad if you're doing pure gish, but depending on the build that floating spells-known malus can sting.
I have a few feats and coin to throw around, but not that many feats and coin is unreliable at best. BUT IT SHALL NOT BE DISCOUNTED. Wouldn't that destroy the number of spells that a sorcerer already knows? Like, even more than it is already?
*Mumbles* It'll probably sting more than help; I want to focus on the magic, with gishing being a (rather power) fall-back, of sorts. Minor gishing all the time is always good, too.

It's quarter to one now, And I have school tomorrow. In a few hours. But I cannot rest until... stuff... happens...
Damn it, what was I writing again?!
I'm going to read this some point later when the sanity comes rushing back, only to find a madman has taken over this account. Like that's the least of my worries.

EDIT: The evil spell has passed. I think.

Is there some stupid way of advancing sorcerer casting without a class level? *Evil grin* (They really need more faces for these. I can never find the right one to use. :smallfurious:) It would take some of the hassle away from reaching 9s.
Also:

*Snip* I think the intent was to have a formula for this sort of thing based on the base classes that prepare spells (Wizard, Cleric, Druid), where the minimum caster level is something like [(Spell Level × 2) – 1] (minimum 1). But as you've pointed out, the existence of nontraditional casting classes really messes with that, and WotC never actually explicitly defined such a formula. (They almost did—DMG pg. 283 specifies that the minimum caster level for a scroll is "usually twice the spell's level, minus 1," but that "usually" in there messes things up.)I'm sure I know this, but what's the minimum Caster Level for a 9th level spell?

...I'ma go to sleep, before I dig myself any deeper.

[bean illus]

Minimum CL for 9th is 17 for Wizards and prepared casters, and 18 for Sorcerers and spontaneous casters (probably exceptions).

[One Step Two]

Minimum CL for 9th is 17 for Wizards and prepared casters, and 18 for Sorcerers and spontaneous casters (probably exceptions).

This. Due to the stack of Battle Sorcerer and Stalwart sorcerer you'll only have one 9th level spell known at 18th, but the Capstone ability of Swiftblade means that you can cast haste out of higher level spell slots to act like you've got time stop.

[Kaje]

Ur-priests can get it at 14.

[Sandsarecool]

What a big mess of posts. I wonder what happned to me last night.
Welp, time for an Edit spree. Can't have people tracking my new-found bouts of insanity.
Alright, so depending on how stuff works, I'll end up taking either Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 10/Abj. Champ. 4 (The caster level is higher than the BAB, so Abj. Champ 5 is obsolete) leaving me with casting as 20th lvl sorcerer and 17 BAB by 20th level.
(Is battle sorcerer really worth it when I could take something like a wizard and get the proficiency from a race or a feat?)

or I'll shove Warshaper in there (Why I am I doing this?) for Battle Sorcerer 4/Swiftblade 10/Abj. Champ 4/Warshaper 2, giving full spellcasting progression to Swiftblade for 18th lvl sorcerer casting and 18? BAB by 20th level.
I can can grab the equivalent of Warshaper 3 and 4 with some XP, and HP (Though the heals ability would be less powerful, but aw well.)

So, I'd be trading: 1x 8th lvl spell, 3x 9th lvl spell + 1 spell in every level/day; 1x 8th lvl spell, 2x 9th lvl spell + 1 spell in every level known (:smalleek:) for +1 BAB, a feat (for martial proficiency), Natural attacks, and +4 to Str and Con. I haven't calculated saves and the like, and I'm rushed for time (aren't we all?), but it's the general gist.

[Name1]

So you start at level 17, right?

How about Savage Bard 1/Ardent 4/Urpriest 2/Psychic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Psychic Theurge 1/Cerebremancer 2 (finishing it up with 3 more levels of Cerebremancer)

The problem with this is that you'll need the Southern Magician feat to have Sublime Chord think Urpriest is an arcane casting class...

Though I think this build should make you able to cast most utility spells...

(Pick up Tap Mantle too... You are gonna need extra powers...)

[Sandsarecool]

So you start at level 17, right?

How about Savage Bard 1/Ardent 4/Urpriest 2/Psychic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Psychic Theurge 1/Cerebremancer 2 (finishing it up with 3 more levels of Cerebremancer)

The problem with this is that you'll need the Southern Magician feat to have Sublime Chord think Urpriest is an arcane casting class...

Though I think this build should make you able to cast most utility spells...

(Pick up Tap Mantle too... You are gonna need extra powers...)

As I have no time, Can I ask you to elaborate on what this build is capable of?

[Kaje]

I believe that's a triple 9ths build.

[Sandsarecool]

I believe that's a triple 9ths build.

Huh. Shiny. Still competent if thrown into the frontlines?

[Kaje]

With buffs from the cleric and sub chord spell lists, I should think so.

[Sandsarecool]

With buffs from the cleric and sub chord spell lists, I should think so.

Ah, but is triple 9 worth trading out extra actions for? I know those are REALLY valuable.
Argh. Why so many difficult decisions?!

[One Step Two]

Ah, but is triple 9 worth trading out extra actions for? I know those are REALLY valuable.
Argh. Why so many difficult decisions?!

I personally really enjoy the triple 9's build, however it will lack from a clear focus. It will gives you tonnes of options, but you may be faced with not being sure what to do with them at any given point.

Refering back to your earlier post asking about Sorc vs Wiz, Wizard will always be better than Sorcerer because your spellbook is your best friend, namely giving you more options in the long run, letting you by the Gish you want to be, but with you being able to keep other spells in your book to help with other situations. The Sorc build I suggested tends to being amazing at Melee combat and maybe some light blasting, but little else, unless you can get your hand on a bunch of know stones to round out your spells known list.

[Kaje]

Personally I wouldn't go with that one. I'd either do the swift blade build or the fantastic wu Jen/ jade Phoenix Mage combo, even though it doesn't fully come online until level 20.

[Sandsarecool]

It's in the name, one step ahead :smallwink: As for more templates for charisma stacking the only one that comes to immediately to mind is Draconic from Races of the Dragon: +1 LA for +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, claw attacks and natural armor, and a few other small goodies. But for a Sorcerer, it gives you Dragonblood subtype giving you access to nifty spells and feats from Races of the Dragon.

So, a Draconic Magic Blooded Half-Nymph who has been granted the Fire soul template has the following:
+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Int, +12 Cha
+4 LA is a very bad idea. Even If I get 3 LA insta-bought off (Which technically I can't do which the original 'contract' my DM gave me, I'd still be a whole level behind for well into my career. Seeing as magic is a thing I want, and that I've been theorizing off 20th level builds, tis not a favourable circumstance for me.


I personally really enjoy the triple 9's build, however it will lack from a clear focus. It will gives you tonnes of options, but you may be faced with not being sure what to do with them at any given point.

Referring back to your earlier post asking about Sorc vs Wiz, Wizard will always be better than Sorcerer because your spellbook is your best friend, namely giving you more options in the long run, letting you by the Gish you want to be, but with you being able to keep other spells in your book to help with other situations. The Sorc build I suggested tends to being amazing at Melee combat and maybe some light blasting, but little else, unless you can get your hand on a bunch of know stones to round out your spells known list.
Remember that magic items aren't things we can rely on here. As for losing a spellbook...



Personally I wouldn't go with that one. I'd either do the swift blade build or the fantastic wu Jen/ jade Phoenix Mage combo, even though it doesn't fully come online until level 20.
I was going to say something, but I've forgotten. Drat.:smallfrown:

[One Step Two]

Remember that magic items aren't things we can rely on here. As for losing a spellbook...

Which is why I recommended the sorcerer build mostly. But you can always pick up the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF from Dragon 357 for a wizard, and never need a spellbook again.

[Sandsarecool]

Which is why I recommended the sorcerer build mostly. But you can always pick up the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF from Dragon 357 for a wizard, and never need a spellbook again.
You're all over the Dragon Magazine aren't you? :smalltongue:
Oh, and uh, thanks.

[One Step Two]

You're all over the Dragon Magazine aren't you? :smalltongue:
Oh, and uh, thanks.

Heh, you read enough about wizards and character optimization boards, and you eventually trip over all the juicy stuff that comes from Dragon Magazine.
It's how I ended up making a Gestalt character, who was a Dragon that can cast spells above his Racial HD in an anti-magic zone for fun.

[Sandsarecool]

Heh, you read enough about wizards and character optimization boards, and you eventually trip over all the juicy stuff that comes from Dragon Magazine.
It's how I ended up making a Gestalt character, who was a Dragon that can cast spells above his Racial HD in an anti-magic zone for fun.

Huh. When I get better at this, I'll have to pit my combat experience against yours someday. Someday.
I'll probably just take Arcane Disciple to grab some extra spells that I don't know. If I go with
Battle Sorcerer 4/Swiftblade 10/Abj. Champ 4/Warshaper 2
which I'm leaning towards, because because, what race, and what feets templates?

I'm not sure If I want to take a wizard; if only being the 'best' spontaneous caster (i.e the only dedicated one-ish) means I can deal with some of the curve balls. And there are many curve balls. I haven't played a prepared caster in a campaign as.... unforgiving as this one. I don't wanna mistakes.

[One Step Two]

Huh. When I get better at this, I'll have to pit my combat experience against yours someday. Someday.
I'll probably just take Arcane Disciple to grab some extra spells that I don't know. If I go with
Battle Sorcerer 4/Swiftblade 10/Abj. Champ 4/Warshaper 2
which I'm leaning towards, because because, what race, and what feets templates?

Okay, as for race, you've got an interesting option here. If you're willing to play a Kobold, you can use The Draconic Rite of Passage from Races of the Dragon in combination with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) to give you +1 Sorcerer level, meaning you'll be a Sorcerer 19 for the purposes of spellcasting. But being small can suck hard when you want to gish.
Straight up Human is never bad for the feat, but if we really want to hammer home your awesome Charisma bonus, a Aasimar is the way to go. You can either take the Lesser Aasimar from Players Guide to Faerun for LA 0, and get +2 Wis and Cha and a few other goodies, but if you take the Savage Progression Aasimar (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) and don't actually take the savage level, you lose some resistance bonuses, and the wisdom increase, but keep the outsider subtype.

[Sandsarecool]

Okay, as for race, you've got an interesting option here. If you're willing to play a Kobold, you can use The Draconic Rite of Passage from Races of the Dragon in combination with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) to give you +1 Sorcerer level, meaning you'll be a Sorcerer 19 for the purposes of spellcasting. But being small can suck hard when you want to gish.
Straight up Human is never bad for the feat, but if we really want to hammer home your awesome Charisma bonus, a Aasimar is the way to go. You can either take the Lesser Aasimar from Players Guide to Faerun for LA 0, and get +2 Wis and Cha and a few other goodies, but if you take the Savage Progression Aasimar (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) and don't actually take the savage level, you lose some resistance bonuses, and the wisdom increase, but keep the outsider subtype.
I don't wanna be a kobold, but Draconic Rite of Passage and friends would be very useful. I'm see if I can go get it refluffed, somehow... Moar feets is good, as is le outsider. Hm, decisions. Again. :smallannoyed:

What about templates? I asked you earlier, but a single clear answer would be appreciated. And uh, stay away from the +4 LA. I can't handle it.

[One Step Two]

I don't wanna be a kobold, but Draconic Rite of Passage and friends would be very useful. I'm see if I can go get it refluffed, somehow... Moar feets is good, as is le outsider. Hm, decisions. Again. :smallannoyed:

What about templates? I asked you earlier, but a single clear answer would be appreciated. And uh, stay away from the +4 LA. I can't handle it.

Okay Templates, in order of LA:

Magic Blooded (DragM 306) +0 LA: -2 Wis, +2 Cha, + spell-like abilities
Fire-Souled (DragM 314) +1 LA: +4 Cha, Fire Subtype, Leadership and other goodies
Draconic (Races of the Dragon) +1 LA: +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 Nat armor, claws, +resistances
Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) +2 LA: +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, power resistance, +Psi-like abilities
Half-Nymph (DragM 313) +2 LA: +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Charisma, low-light vision, counts as fey, Awesome Beauty Su Ability


Edit: You might be able to diplomance your way into using the Draconic template and being able to use the Draconic Rite of passage, cause synergy in naming.

[Sandsarecool]

Okay Templates, in order of LA:

Magic Blooded (DragM 306) +0 LA: -2 Wis, +2 Cha, + spell-like abilities
Fire-Souled (DragM 314) +1 LA: +4 Cha, Fire Subtype, Leadership and other goodies
Draconic (Races of the Dragon) +1 LA: +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 Nat armor, claws, +resistances
Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) +2 LA: +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, power resistance, +Psi-like abilities
Half-Nymph (DragM 313) +2 LA: +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Charisma, low-light vision, counts as fey, Awesome Beauty Su Ability


Edit: You might be able to diplomance your way into using the Draconic template and being able to use the Draconic Rite of passage, cause synergy in naming.

Thank you. Now, where'd I put that d20? There are diplomacy checks to be made!

[One Step Two]

Thank you. Now, where'd I put that d20? There are diplomacy checks to be made!

Good luck! :smallbiggrin:

With the ability to buy off upto 3 LA before 20, seeing as you have the Quasilycanthrope +1, Using Magic Blooded, Draconic, and Fire-souled is your best overall, as it has nice physical damage increases, and the most Charisma you can jam into it over all.

[Name1]

If you don't want to go Divine anyway... how about devoting yourself to an Elder Evil ad the shuffling the feats? That would mean four extra feats, going up to 5 at the end there.

I believe they have a girl in their ranks who has destroying undead as a big thing, which wouldn't look like too evil of a focus.

[Tysis]

Instead of battle sorcerer what if you went warmage?

Something like Warmage4/Rainbow Servant10/Sacred Exorcist1/Prestige Paladin2/Contemplative2/Church Inquisitor1
Rainbow Servant should be 10/10 but if your dm wants to use the table for 6/10 then make this the class you add full spell progression to. Otherwise, make prestige paladin full progression and never lose a caster level.

So you spontaneously cast from the Warmage, Cleric, and Paladin lists in addition to getting the Air, Good, and Law domains. Pick up a free domain at 18 (I recommend Time) and get Inquisition at 20. All without having to lose CL or spell slots. Versatile Spell also means you can cast 9th level spells at lvl17 by using 2 spell slots. Battle Blessing for essentially a free quicken on all the paladin spells.

The Air domain plus Turn Undead gets you 6 + 2(CHA) uses for divine feats which is enough to persist at least 2 spells.

For defenses you'll have CHA to saves and whatever buffs you maintain. You can wear a mithral breastplate + magic vestment, or use greater luminous armor. At 18 you pick up slippery mind.

Persist some buffs and use power attack and charging for damage if you want to melee. Use metamagic and maybe pick up a level of Sanctified One of Kord to make all your fire spells do divine damage if you want to blast. Hit dice are a little on the small side but you're starting with 22? Con so combined with spells you should be fine.

More or less capable of everything, no items required.

[Sandsarecool]

If you don't want to go Divine anyway... how about devoting yourself to an Elder Evil ad the shuffling the feats? That would mean four extra feats, going up to 5 at the end there.

I believe they have a girl in their ranks who has destroying undead as a big thing, which wouldn't look like too evil of a focus.
Um, did I say that? I kinda really wanna go divine; I'm just not because I feel I can make a better contribution to the group as such. (Though If you could throw that in somehow, I'd take a good long look at it).
Chaos Shuffling feats is allowed, but it counts against my WBL and/or XP. And it's the saner interpretation; no elves FTW here. I believe the cost is also increased as finding said spell are difficult.

EDIT: Ur-Priest actually seems not not a bad idea, as the party pushed him into accepting it as at least a neutral class (i.e. scrapping the any evil part). Somehow, they convinced him that turning your back from the gods - any gods, including the evil ones, was a 'neutral' thing to do. (And it was a pretty convincing argument; I was there.) I'd assume that'd mean he's done something with that spell focus requirement...
...He's probably thrown it away completely, hasn't he? I'll go find out.

I can probably find a few ways to abuse the full arcane/divine/psionic progression to the one PrC with this quite well, me thinks...*Evil Laughter*

[Sandsarecool]

Good luck! :smallbiggrin:
Haha! I've passed my Diplomacy checks! :smallsmile: Those templates are good to go for me.

Even though indecisive me is still busy being indecisive, I think I'm certainly settling on a Swiftblade build, of some variation. That being said, what spells should I be taking memorising, and what feats should I be looking into?

[One Step Two]

Haha! I've passed my Diplomacy checks! :smallsmile: Those templates are good to go for me.

Even though indecisive me is still busy being indecisive, I think I'm certainly settling on a Swiftblade build, of some variation. That being said, what spells should I be taking memorising, and what feats should I be looking into?

Awesome, so let's start building from the base:

Do you use myth-weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/)? It's a great online character sheet generator if you need it.
In any case, start by listing off your race, templates and over-all build progression, along with any feat requirements for any PrC's, and we can determine what we have left.

[Sandsarecool]

Awesome, so let's start building from the base:

Do you use myth-weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/)? It's a great online character sheet generator if you need it.
In any case, start by listing off your race, templates and over-all build progression, along with any feat requirements for any PrC's, and we can determine what we have left.

Sorry for the late reply. This blasted thing that humans call 'life' seem to keep getting in the way.
I kinda sorta use myth-weavers, but I don't know how do character sheets from it. If my internet wasn't on the fritz I'd have looked into it better... Just got to wait for it to be fixed...

EDIT: Blasted internet. I lost all of my post :smallfrown: I'll have to re-write it now...

Ho hum. I found these feats in some d20 books, and now I want to re-revise this build. :smallfurious:
To hell with this. I'm going to post some of the ones that catch my eye, so everybody can join in on this fun.

Swap Spellcasting Progression
Benefit: Choose a class which progresses your levels in two different classes for the purposes of spellcasting. This class must progress the two casting classes at a different rate. Swap the two spellcasting progressions. For example, the XXXXXXX has an arcane spell-progression of 6/10, and a divine spell-progression of 10/10. A character with this feat would instead receive 10/10 arcane spell progression and 6/10 divine spell progression.
Special: This feat may only be taken at 1st level.

Sacrificial Learner
Benefit: Choose a class in which you possess atleast a single level. Immediately gain all the class features of this class as if you had gained a level in this class. This includes all abilities listed in the “special” column of the class writeup, as well as any spellcasting progression. You do not gain any increase to your BAB or saves, if applicable.
Special: A character can no longer advance in this class when he levels up. This feat may be taken multiple times. Every time it is taken, the character may gain an additional level's worth of class features, or may choose a new class to apply this to.

Spell Pincher
Prerequisite: Arcane Caster level 1+, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 14
Benefit: Choose a single arcane spell from any arcane spell list. You must meet the prerequisites necessary to cast the spell, including minimum caster level and spellcasting ability score. You may immediately add it to your spells memorized. You cannot opt to pinch a spell that is of 4th level or higher.
Special: A character may take this feat multiple times. Each time, he may select a single, unmemorized, new spell.


Also, is this worth looking into?


Tablet of the Arcane Saint
Price: X gp
Caster Level: Yth
Weight: Z lb.
[Insert Fluff Text Here] If anyone reads this tablet (a minimum of AB hours over at least C days), she gains an inherent bonus of +2 to her Intelligence score, but loses 2 points from her Wisdom score. In addition, she gains 5 ranks of Spellcraft, 2 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) 2 ranks of Knowledge (arcana), and 2 ranks of Knowledge (the planes). [Insert More Fluff Text Here]

As yet another aside, If I were to dabble in another form of 'casting/manifesting/whatever', what would one recommend? I can probably only push about 6-7 levels of progression for it, so I'm guessing I want an accelerated progression?
EDIT: I forget what is good to post on here and what is not, so I nuanced some of the information here.

[Name1]

...Can you define "saner" Dark Chaos Shuffeling? I mean, I get that you can't shuffle racial things, but can you still shuffle class feats?

In all seriousness though, if it just costs you XP/WBL, by all means, it's worth it.

Progressing Human with 2 Flaws Wizard 1/Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 2/Feat Rogue 2/Cleric 1 (with the right domains)/Soulknife 1/Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Ranger 1/Elocator 1 and devoted to an Elder Evil, you'd start the game with:

1+3+2+2+2+2+2+3+1+1+4+6 = 29 feats and pump those into that Sacrificial Learner feat.

And we aren't even talking about Weapons of Legacy yet (ála True Dilletante), as in, CSing those ritual-gained feats. If we calculate those in and pump Sacrifical Learner feats into Cleric so we can persist Divine Power... then we could replace Elocator and Ranger with a ToB class and Druid and might get in some Full-BaB ridicilous saves Quintuple 9s.

Then again, if your sane definition prohibits that, I suppose that would remain a though exercise... if the third party feat is allowed at all. Just out of curiosity... where did you find that feat?

[Sandsarecool]

...Can you define "saner" Dark Chaos Shuffeling? I mean, I get that you can't shuffle racial things, but can you still shuffle class feats?
Sorry for the ambiguity. Class Feats may be shuffled.

[Sandsarecool]

...Can you define "saner" Dark Chaos Shuffeling? I mean, I get that you can't shuffle racial things, but can you still shuffle class feats?

In all seriousness though, if it just costs you XP/WBL, by all means, it's worth it.

Progressing Human with 2 Flaws Wizard 1/Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 2/Feat Rogue 2/Cleric 1 (with the right domains)/Soulknife 1/Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Ranger 1/Elocator 1 and devoted to an Elder Evil, you'd start the game with:

1+3+2+2+2+2+2+3+1+1+4+6 = 29 feats and pump those into that Sacrificial Learner feat.

And we aren't even talking about Weapons of Legacy yet (ála True Dilletante), as in, CSing those ritual-gained feats. If we calculate those in and pump Sacrifical Learner feats into Cleric so we can persist Divine Power... then we could replace Elocator and Ranger with a ToB class and Druid and might get in some Full-BaB ridicilous saves Quintuple 9s.

Then again, if your sane definition prohibits that, I suppose that would remain a though exercise... if the third party feat is allowed at all. Just out of curiosity... where did you find that feat?
Wait, wha, huh, wha?
I don't think I even want... that THING.
...Nor do I think the DM will allow it.

As for the book, it's a translation of a foreign d20 book (Those exist? Huh.). The title here reads: The Lazy DM's Guide to making prestige classes.

[Name1]

I suppose I sorta messed that up anyway: Forgot to factor in PHBII factions, VoP, Soul-Bargains and Master Thrower. I think you can get up to 504 feats total at level 20 if you calculate everything in.

Still... if you have the WBL and that feat + Legacy Chaos Shuffle is allowed, you might want to go Human with 2 Flaws (for Dodge and Mobility) Crusader 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Druid 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1/Psion 1/Archivist 1/Monk 1/Soulknife 1/Swiftblade 10

EDIT:


I don't think I even want... that THING.

As for the book, it's a translation of a foreign d20 book (Those exist? Huh.). The title here reads: The Lazy DM's Guide to making prestige classes.

... Or not^^°

Anyway, thanks for telling me where to find that feat. I'll watch out for it, since there is one player in my group that might try to pull something similar on me...

[Hiro Quester]

Okay Templates, in order of LA:

[snip]

Fire-Souled (DragM 314) +1 LA: +4 Cha, Fire Subtype, Leadership and other goodies


Fire Souled is actually +3 LA. I don't know if it matters at this stage, since the DM okayed the templates. But just in case.

[Sandsarecool]

Anyway, thanks for telling me where to find that feat. I'll watch out for it, since there is one player in my group that might try to pull something similar on me...

You're welcome, I guess. Have fun with guy for me.
...Though I recommend not allowing the book. I see the potential for quite a few game-breakers in here.


Fire Souled is actually +3 LA. I don't know if it matters at this stage, since the DM okayed the templates. But just in case.

I should Clarify. He hasn't checked my actual build; merely given the OK for me to use these templates if I so wish. But derp; I hadn't actually checked that. I should start double-checking all the information I get. Where does one find it, again?

I still want to think of a million different plausible builds, but I gotta join in at some point. Currently, My character's build is: Battle Sorcerer 4/Swiftblade 1/Good Fort Save Class 1/Ur-Priest 1/Swiftblade +9, taking Abjurant Champion from then on as I level. I'm using some shenanigans to get me into Swiftblade early, giving it full divine spellcasting progression, then use of the Swap Spellcasting Progression feat to give me full arcane progression and 6/10 divine progression with Ur-Priest.
That scrapes 9th level arcane spells by 20 and gives me 7th level divine spells, which should give me some leeway in the 'I can't memorize spells for anything' conundrum the sorcerer would seem to suffer from. I probably find some way of using one of One Step Two's methods of increasing my sorcerer casting by another level, for slightly faster access to 9th level spells.
And I'm retraining almost all prerequisite feats as soon as I've done advancing in their respective classes.
...Though I do kinda feel I'll be left in the dark in an AMF. DM throws those around from time to time. quite a bit. I'm actually kinda tempted to swap divine casting out for initiator progression, but we'll see.

As for feats, here goes:

- [Flaw #1] Lost Tradition; Ur-Priest to Cha
- [Flaw #2] Dodge
- [Flaw #3] Mobility
- [Landmark Feat #1: Otyugh Hole] Iron Will; [Retrain?]
- [1st Level Feat] Swap Spellcasting Progression
- [3rd Level Feat] Spell Pincher (Haste; Trapsmith 1) N.B. I need to stick this feat desc. in my earlier post.
- [5th Level Feat] Spell Focus [Evil]; [Retrain]
- [7th Level Feat] Combat Casting
- [9th Level Feat] Free
- [11th Level Feat] Free
- [13th Level Feat] Free
- [15th Level Feat] Free

EDIT: Hey; couldn't I take a Landmark feat and then get it shuffled for moar feets? Actually... too much evil in too much people on these boards. I'll shy away from that.

[Extra Anchovies]

A tip: if you're starting above where you enter Swiftblade, take Spring Attack before your first level of Swiftblade. Instead of Spring Attack, you get any other feat for which you qualify as a bonus feat. Then retrain the Spring Attack you took earlier and enjoy your free feat :smallbiggrin: At most tables, the DM would just look at you like this (http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/993/875/084.png) when you told them what you were trying to do, but if they're letting you do half the stuff you mentioned in your most recent post then you can probably pull this one over on them too.

As an aside, you don't appear to be meeting the Swiftblade prereqs; at 5th level, you don't have Dodge, Mobility, or any 3rd-level spell slots to cast Haste with.


giving it full divine spellcasting progression

How?


use of the Swap Spellcasting Progression feat to give me full arcane progression and 6/10 divine progression with Ur-Priest.
...that's not at all what it does.

Swap Spellcasting Progression
Benefit: Choose a class which progresses your levels in two different classes for the purposes of spellcasting. This class must progress the two casting classes at a different rate. Swap the two spellcasting progressions. For example, the XXXXXXX has an arcane spell-progression of 6/10, and a divine spell-progression of 10/10. A character with this feat would instead receive 10/10 arcane spell progression and 6/10 divine spell progression.
Special: This feat may only be taken at 1st level.
You don't have any theurge PrCs, the 10/10-arcane and 6/10-divine casting is part of the example, and you're trying to take it after first level, so it can't be used in the way you're trying to use it for three different reasons.

Lost Tradition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10203238&postcount=2) also can only be taken at 1st, so you can't take it at 5th.


...Though I do kinda feel I'll be left in the dark in an AMF. DM throws those around from time to time. quite a bit. I'm actually kinda tempted to swap divine casting out for initiator progression, but we'll see.

You could Wish for an object that casts Invoke Magic on you at the start of each of your turns, which gives you a chance to leave the AMF via Dimension Door.

Arcane Sight has a range of Personal and a target of You, so it only ceases to function if you enter the AMF. AMF is itself a spell effect, and any sane reading of the spell assumes that an AMF does not suppress itself, so if an AMF is within 120 feet of you and in your field of vision, you'll know that it's there. With Greater Arcane Sight, you'll also know that it's specifically an antimagic field, and not just an area with only one active magical effect.


EDIT: Hey; couldn't I take a Landmark feat and then get it shuffled for moar feets?

Yes. But if you're at a table where the DCFS you're considering is actually allowed, you might as well just peruse the tricks in this thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=663.0) and use whichever one looks most appealing. The lack of a restriction on combining Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos is an obvious writing oversight. If you're going to use TO in actual play, at least avoid the drown-healing bulls**t and stick with combinations of multiple individually-working-as-intended abilities like the d2 Crusader.

[Sandsarecool]

A tip: if you're starting above where you enter Swiftblade, take Spring Attack before your first level of Swiftblade. Instead of Spring Attack, you get any other feat for which you qualify as a bonus feat. Then retrain the Spring Attack you took earlier and enjoy your free feat :smallbiggrin: At most tables, the DM would just look at you like this (http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/993/875/084.png) when you told them what you were trying to do, but if they're letting you do half the stuff you mentioned in your most recent post then you can probably pull this one over on them too.
Oh noes, I have to spend effort explaining. Firstly though, since I can just Chaos Shuffle the feat as soon as I get it, is there really much point? I'll still take your method though. Seems less likely to become a big mess.


As an aside, you don't appear to be meeting the Swiftblade prereqs; at 5th level, you don't have Dodge, Mobility, or any 3rd-level spell slots to cast Haste with.
Yeah, I kinda messed up my feats; shall be fixed. Merci.
As for those 3rd level slots, I don't have them, but:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast haste.
Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste. We're using this, from the developer's notes, as pseudo-errata.
Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all spell slots of the level in which haste is gained to exclusively cast haste. I can get haste as a first level spell because of Spell Pincher, effectively stealing it from the Trapsmith spell list. 3rd Party material = abuse, no? :smalltongue:



...that's not at all what it does.

You don't have any theurge PrCs, the 10/10-arcane and 6/10-divine casting is part of the example, and you're trying to take it after first level, so it can't be used in the way you're trying to use it for three different reasons.
Three? I count two.
Eh, I need to stick a big sign somewhere explaining this... I get full arcane/divine/psionic/initiator progression to one PrC of my choosing for, uh, reasons. That's at the cost of +3 +1 LA and three anti-feats, but meh. Worth it.
I believe anti-feats are from the Kalamar 3rd Party setting, if memory recalls. They're random, and I don't know what they are yet.
If they're that terrible, I'll take the +3 LA instead. Campaign reasons.


Lost Tradition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10203238&postcount=2) also can only be taken at 1st, so you can't take it at 5th.
Derp. Guess that's what happens when you stay up until one every day making your build so that you can ask the boards while you do it. Back to work.



You could Wish for an object that casts Invoke Magic on you at the start of each of your turns, which gives you a chance to leave the AMF via Dimension Door.

Arcane Sight has a range of Personal and a target of You, so it only ceases to function if you enter the AMF. AMF is itself a spell effect, and any sane reading of the spell assumes that an AMF does not suppress itself, so if an AMF is within 120 feet of you and in your field of vision, you'll know that it's there. With Greater Arcane Sight, you'll also know that it's specifically an antimagic field, and not just an area with only one active magical effect.
Great! ...If wish wasn't nigh impossible to get my hands on. I'm stretching the Chaos Shuffling as is. Besides, the DM'll probably just drop it right on top of us when we push the Big Red Button to open the door to the BBEG. He's evil like that.

And no, it's not a crazy race for power, atleast not most of the time. Though one can usually notice the heat increasing when we're going the wrong way or skipping some plot piece. No railroading though, so hilarity ensues when they've got it in their heads to do something.


Yes. But if you're at a table where the DCFS you're considering is actually allowed, you might as well just peruse the tricks in this thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=663.0) and use whichever one looks most appealing. The lack of a restriction on combining Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos is an obvious writing oversight. If you're going to use TO in actual play, at least avoid the drown-healing bulls**t and stick with combinations of multiple individually-working-as-intended abilities like the d2 Crusader.
I skimmed through that (Don't smite me!) and uh...
Too much combat optimization? :smalltongue:

Besides, the DM often kills people off without encounters. There was an entire dungeon that was purely traps and puzzles, for example. Two out of the Eight PCs made it out alive. No encounters. And there's a hidden gentleman's agreement to not... y'know.

I've attempted to fix the mess of feat allocation. Any better?

[Extra Anchovies]

First, my apologies. I hadn't been following this thread particularly closely, and when I saw a feat and level progression I pounced. Apparently a bit more curiosity would've done this cat some good.


Oh noes, I have to spend effort explaining. Firstly though, since I can just Chaos Shuffle the feat as soon as I get it, is there really much point? I'll still take your method though. Seems less likely to become a big mess.

Well, if you start past level 5 it saves you the 2450 gp that the DCFS normally costs, which could be enough to give your budget room for one more fancy item. Or you could use the money to buy over 300 mules. Up to you, really (but you know you want those mules).


Yeah, I kinda messed up my feats; shall be fixed. Merci.
As for those 3rd level slots, I don't have them, but:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast haste.
Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste. We're using this, from the developer's notes, as pseudo-errata.
Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all spell slots of the level in which haste is gained to exclusively cast haste. I can get haste as a first level spell because of Spell Pincher, effectively stealing it from the Trapsmith spell list. 3rd Party material = abuse, no? :smalltongue:

Ah, I suspected it was either something to that effect or loredrake/etc shenanigans, but I wasn't entirely sure. Also: curse you, trapsmith spell list!


Three? I count two.
Eh, I need to stick a big sign somewhere explaining this... I get full arcane/divine/psionic/initiator progression to one PrC of my choosing for, uh, reasons. That's at the cost of +3 +1 LA and three anti-feats, but meh. Worth it.

Oh, you're adding the 10 levels of divine spellcasting to the Swiftblade, turning it into a theurge class and thus qualifying for Swap Spellcasting. I understand now.


I believe anti-feats are from the Kalamar 3rd Party setting, if memory recalls. They're random, and I don't know what they are yet.
If they're that terrible, I'll take the +3 LA instead. Campaign reasons.

Anti-feats are indeed from Kingdoms of Kalamar, specifically the Villain Design Handbook. They're listed in an eight-and-a-half-page d1000 table, so... have fun figuring out if it's worth the risk, I guess?

Nah, what am I talking about. Half the stuff on that table will give you a disadvantage to something you aren't trying to do anyways. Pile 'em on!


I skimmed through that (Don't smite me!) and uh...

Hahahaha! I don't smite people. I use Death Strike (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90017.jpg).


Besides, the DM often kills people off without encounters. There was an entire dungeon that was purely traps and puzzles, for example. Two out of the Eight PCs made it out alive. No encounters. And there's a hidden gentleman's agreement to not... y'know.

Tricks that rely on poorly worded text (Eschew Materials -> Ice Assassin/Scrying, for example) do unpleasant things to my sanity. If they fly at your table, though, I suppose I should take them into account.

You will probably want permanent Arcane Sight for AMF detection, though. Also, if you can get telepathy (Mindbender dip?) you can pick up Mindsight, which automatically alerts you to the presence and location of any creatures with Intelligence scores inside your telepathy range, which could let you know exactly how many horrid abominations are in the next room. That is, until the DM wises up and starts throwing oozes your way... :smallamused:


I've attempted to fix the mess of feat allocation. Any better?

Your 5th level is Swiftblade, so you need Mobility before then. It can be swapped with Spell Focus (Evil) without disrupting any other build elements.

[Sandsarecool]

First, my apologies. I hadn't been following this thread particularly closely, and when I saw a feat and level progression I pounced. Apparently a bit more curiosity would've done this cat some good.
Nah, it's fine. We all do the same thing.


Well, if you start past level 5 it saves you the 2450 gp that the DCFS normally costs, which could be enough to give your budget room for one more fancy item. Or you could use the money to buy over 300 mules. Up to you, really (but you know you want those mules).
Mules... Tasty tasty mules... So many, many tasty mules...
...I'm pretty sure the party would just end up eating them, though.


Ah, I suspected it was either something to that effect or loredrake/etc shenanigans, but I wasn't entirely sure. Also: curse you, trapsmith spell list!
I cast Remove curse. Take that, Fiend! No-good Evil-doer! Unfriendly Undead Consorter of perhaps dubious alignment!
...Philosophy and D&D make for interesting moments, sometimes.


Oh, you're adding the 10 levels of divine spellcasting to the Swiftblade, turning it into a theurge class and thus qualifying for Swap Spellcasting. I understand now.
...And I still managed to fail to explain it without someone needing to add in their own logic. Darn it. Someday, I promise. Someday!


Anti-feats are indeed from Kingdoms of Kalamar, specifically the Villain Design Handbook. They're listed in an eight-and-a-half-page d1000 table, so... have fun figuring out if it's worth the risk, I guess?

Nah, what am I talking about. Half the stuff on that table will give you a disadvantage to something you aren't trying to do anyways. Pile 'em on!
*Evil Laughter*
And there's always a fall back. Bites into my charisma, but...


Hahahaha! I don't smite people. I use Death Strike (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90017.jpg).
Urgh. Fortitude saves. Where's that blasted d20 when you need it?


Tricks that rely on poorly worded text (Eschew Materials -> Ice Assassin/Scrying, for example) do unpleasant things to my sanity. If they fly at your table, though, I suppose I should take them into account.
Not proficient in these tricks myself. Someone care to explain? Please?


You will probably want permanent Arcane Sight for AMF detection, though. Also, if you can get telepathy (Mindbender dip?) you can pick up Mindsight, which automatically alerts you to the presence and location of any creatures with Intelligence scores inside your telepathy range, which could let you know exactly how many horrid abominations are in the next room.
Ah yes, Mindsight. The bane of sneaky things everywhere.


That is, until the DM wises up and starts throwing oozes your way... :smallamused:
...
Too late.


Your 5th level is Swiftblade, so you need Mobility before then. It can be swapped with Spell Focus (Evil) without disrupting any other build elements.
Blarg. Thanks.
I can't help but feel like I missing something for some reason. Must be my imagination.
...Right?

EDIT: I can haz grammar jeden Tag.
EDIT 2: I changed the Thread name, because I thought it appropriate. I'll have second thoughts, but aw well.

[Sandsarecool]

As yet another distraction for the wonderful people devoting time and effort to help me, what should I call my character? I've never really been good at names, and this is one of the few things where I do not agree with the suggestions of my to-be party.

...I just can't bring myself to name him Tüché McButtchx.

[Extra Anchovies]

I, too, am bad with names. This collection of generators (http://fantasynamegenerators.com/) has helped with my last six or so characters.

[Sandsarecool]

Well, I guess that's the overall build and prerequisite feats in place...
Now then, what should I throw in for the rest of my feats?

I s'pose now'd be a good time to grab some equipment, now too.
400,000 gp on the table, before things like DCFS shenanigans. (What? I'm casting it, too? As a sorcerer?!)
...I could really do with more spells.
If only there was a wizard ACF (or the like, too) that had mediumTM+ BAB.

Everything from clothes to armour to the number of hunks of cheese I should buy would be appreciated.
I'd like to have a little money in reserve, but it's not compulsory.

Now shower me with thine wisdom, O divine optimizers of the boards! *Que God rays*

[Sandsarecool]

I, too, am bad with names. This collection of generators (http://fantasynamegenerators.com/) has helped with my last six or so characters.
No offense?, but I've never really liked most of the names that come out of those generators. I too have used them before for inspiration, but... I don't know. They just kinda FEEL weird. Any other ideas?

And yes, I'll admit it: This post was just so I could change the title, again. I is not very good at to use the forum is.
I'll think of something to chuck in here to beef it up.

Here, have some personal character notes from some of the PCs. I'm sure they won't mind having their thoughts posted for all the world to see...
Sometimes I feel more Evil than Exalted. Anybody else ever get that vibe, from me or your own inner mind?

Never split the party.
I remember being told that a long time ago. Back then, I was still new to the world. Weak. Naïve. The phrase was like a school-boy’s mantra, the kind you would find repeating itself in your head, over and over, in the hopes of lodging itself into your brain.
We’ve passed those limitations now. Such is the skill, the competence, of our family. Given time, it’s plausible for us to split down into far smaller groups, while retaining that which causes our enemies fear. But for that, you need things. Teamwork, Trust, Friendship, hope. Everything else would just fall into place for you.
Though we must exercise caution. Such a thing cannot possibly hope to exist if the fundamentals are not there. We must not allow ourselves to become arrogant, for hubris is the herald of doom.


“You did it. It’s over.”
The wolf turned and fixed her gaze on me.
“No.” she whispered. “We did it.”

I could find no words to counter those. A mutual silence blossomed between the two of our lips. We just lay there, waiting for the end, all smiles.
In the distance, you could feel the explosion. The trembles. The brilliant light. All promising death in its warm embrace. The flames licked across the barren ground, hurtling towards us.
I once heard someone say that time was relative to the observer. They were right. In those moments, I could have lived out my entire life, all behind the raging inferno of a dying world. It came closer and closer, ripping through dreams, livelihoods, and memories in one brutal sweep, with all the tenacity of a wronged lover, still struggling to piece together the remains of their broken mirror; their broken heart.

There was a warm sensation on my muzzle.

It lasted for an instant before it faded to leave naught but bitter cold. My own gaze turned away from the impending doom, back towards the wolf. Back towards Silver. To my friend, my shoulder, my adoptive mother. Back towards my mother.

“So… This is how it ends, then?”
My mouth floundered for words. And floundered. And floundered. But there was nothing that needed to be said. And so the silence retook its mantle; the eerie calm before the storm.
“Midnight?”
“Hm?”
“Do… Do you think that Elenna ever got… to do something like this, before she… crossed the veil?”
That name got me to think. Elenna, my dear friend. The first human that Silver ever stood beside. The first she ever swore to protect with her own life.

But I could not bring myself to dare look back at the memories. They were still too dark, and I, still bleeding out. I pointed my head toward the horizon; back at the inferno.
“I don’t know. But I’d like to think she did.”
Silver rose to sit on her haunches, her fur mottled with the specks and dabs of war; crimson sparkling in the light. She look out at the horizon; at the doom waiting to take us. And she sighed, a weary sigh.
“I miss her.”
“So do I.”
I forced myself up to match her level.
“God… What I’d do to hear her one last time. I’m going to miss that voice.”

She threw her head back, and howled. From that distance, it was a blood-curdling, ear-splitting howl, but I did not shy away. Whether that was from fear, or from respect, I will never know. I just… sat there, mesmerised by it.
That howl; in it, there was a story being told, slowly forming the pages of a book. It could reveal its secrets, but only to those who knew how to read them. And in that instant, I learned to read.
I threw back my own head, and howled.
Then, oblivion came for us.
Then, there was silence.

[Flickerdart]

Names are easy. Just start with a regular British name, and mangle a letter. Then instead of lame names like Edward you get cool names like Eddard.

[Sandsarecool]

Names are easy. Just start with a regular British name, and mangle a letter. Then instead of lame names like Edward you get cool names like Eddard.
If only I had Proficiency: Namemaking...

Attempt #1: Edward -> Edwand
Attempt #2: Edward -> Edcard
Attempt #3: Edward -> Edwund
Attempt #4: Edward -> Edwarp
Attempt #5: Edward -> Edwald
Attempt #6: Edward -> Edword
Attempt #7: Edward -> Emward
Attempt #8: Edward -> Edpard
Attempt #9: Edward -> Qdward
Attempt #10: Edward -> G'Dward
Attempt #11: Edward -> G'Duand
Attempt #12: Edward -> Edwant
Attempt #13: Edward -> Erward
Attempt #14: Edward -> Erwart
Attempt #15: Edward -> Erwatt
:smallsigh:

[Name1]

You could name him Whisker Stowsthief.

Get it? 'Cause it's an anagram of "He who strikes swift", which is funny because you are a Swiftblade :D

...Yeah, ok, I'll go in my corner now...

[Draconium]

With some of my more recent characters, I decided to put their concepts into Google as "Names that mean X." Then I just look around until I get a name or name combination that I like. Of course, this works best for a "normal" name - there are different methods for more fantastical names.

[Sandsarecool]

You could name him Whisker Stowsthief.

Get it? 'Cause it's an anagram of "He who strikes swift", which is funny because you are a Swiftblade :D

...Yeah, ok, I'll go in my corner now...

No no, don't run away! That's quite a clever name, if I do say so myself.
...How long have you kept that hidden away?



With some of my more recent characters, I decided to put their concepts into Google as "Names that mean X." Then I just look around until I get a name or name combination that I like. Of course, this works best for a "normal" name - there are different methods for more fantastical names.

Normal names work just fine, so long as it... works.
EDIT: Uh... What IS my concept?
EDIT 2: (MOAR DISTRACTIONS! MWAHAHAHA!) Uh, what do people think I should take as my good Fort save class, while we're at it? Then atleast I can show my DM and get some rolls done.
EDIT 3: Note to self: Ask for individual components separately not in one homogeneous blob. It's faster, as specialists are specialists.

I'll break this thread up tomorrow. Thank you all who have helped me thus far.