The Übermage

[Squiddish]

So, I'm creating a wizard/sorcerer/warlock multiclass, primarily sorcerer and wizard with two or three levels of warlock. The campaign starts at level three, and will hopefully go to twenty or at least ten. The character starts with two levels in wizard, with the theurgy class option, and two levels in wizard with the draconic bloodline origin. When I go warlock, I will be choosing the seeker pact.

My friends have helped me optimize my spells, but I'm now focusing on my leveling path. I need to know how I should be split at levels five, ten, and twenty. One particularly important decision is whether to take two or three levels in warlock, since I will definitely have to sacrifice something if I want to have three warlock levels. Additionally, what feats should I be taking?

[MrStabby]

So... maybe the main question is, what are you hoping to achieve?

It doesn't look to be aimed at raw power - given the class splits, so some kind of RP element? Any particular activity you thing would be fun and want this guy to be an expert in?

[DivisibleByZero]

Wiz / Sorc wasn't the best idea in 3.5 (although it wasn't terrible thanks to PrCs).
Wiz / Sorc is a pretty terrible idea in 5e.

I can understand a Sorc with a Warlock dip, but what does Wiz get you that you can't live without?

[Mr Adventurer]

Lack of access to high level spells will definitely leave this 'Übermage' feeling underpowered.

[XmonkTad]

Trying to optimize this mix of three classes is going to be difficult if the goal is "lots of damage at high levels" which I guess is what you're going for? Consider that a bard might be able to do what you want your wizard to do, and then you would be SAD.

[Squiddish]

So... maybe the main question is, what are you hoping to achieve?

It doesn't look to be aimed at raw power - given the class splits, so some kind of RP element? Any particular activity you thing would be fun and want this guy to be an expert in?

I'm going for magical versatility, and there is a bit of an RP element due to the particular campaign setting.

Basically, wizard gives spells and cantrips, including divine. Sorcerer gives spells, cantrips, sorcerous origin stuff, and most importantly metamagic/sorcery points. Warlock gives eldritch blast, invocations, rapidly regenerating spell slots and possibly pact boons.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm thinking this is a case of some people not understanding the multiclass spellcasting rules.
We've seen it many times.

[Squiddish]

I'm thinking this is a case of some people not understanding the multiclass spellcasting rules.
We've seen it many times.

I checked, it works. Spell slots are shared between all spellcasting classes, so a wizard 2/sorcerer 1 has as many spell slots as a wizard 3 or sorcerer 3.

Spells and cantrips must be cast using the spellcasting ability of the class you got them from, which does unfortunately lead to a level of MAD, but I managed to arrange my spells so as to minimize that.

It's not quite as powerful as I expected when I first came up with it, but it definitely has advantages.

[Squiddish]

Lack of access to high level spells will definitely leave this 'Übermage' feeling underpowered.
It actually has just as many ninth level spells and slots as an equivalent wizard or sorcerer, it just gets them a bit later. That's partially made up for by it being a wizard with metamagic.


Trying to optimize this mix of three classes is going to be difficult if the goal is "lots of damage at high levels" which I guess is what you're going for? Consider that a bard might be able to do what you want your wizard to do, and then you would be SAD.

Unfortunately not, I don't get the needed magical abilities out of a bard.

[Thomeyis]

It actually has just as many ninth level spells and slots as an equivalent wizard or sorcerer, it just gets them a bit later. That's partially made up for by it being a wizard with metamagic.



Unfortunately not, I don't get the needed magical abilities out of a bard.

Slots, yes. Spells? No. You'll have a big pile of 3rd-4th level spells known that you can cast in high level slots, but you won't actually know any 9th level spells.

[clash]

I checked, it works. Spell slots are shared between all spellcasting classes, so a wizard 2/sorcerer 1 has as many spell slots as a wizard 3 or sorcerer 3.

Spells and cantrips must be cast using the spellcasting ability of the class you got them from, which does unfortunately lead to a level of MAD, but I managed to arrange my spells so as to minimize that.

It's not quite as powerful as I expected when I first came up with it, but it definitely has advantages.

The problem is getting access to high level spells. A wizard 2/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 2 only has access to 1st level spells even if they have third level spell slots. That means at level 6 you are doing 5d6 dmg with burning hands rather than 8d6 dmg with fireball.

[Squiddish]

Slots, yes. Spells? No. You'll have a big pile of 3rd-4th level spells known that you can cast in high level slots, but you won't actually know any 9th level spells.

Assuming my last level is wizard or sorcerer, I will know at least two. The max level of known spells is tied to the maximum slot level, not to class level.

You do bring up a good point, I would have the same number of ninth level spells as a level 17-18 wizard, not twentieth level, sorry about that.

[clash]

Assuming my last level is wizard or sorcerer, I will know at least two. The max level of known spells is tied to the maximum slot level, not to class level.

You do bring up a good point, I would have the same number of ninth level spells as a level 17-18 wizard, not twentieth level, sorry about that.

"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
You cant take more than 3 levels of another class and still get 9th level spells known

[Thomeyis]

Assuming my last level is wizard or sorcerer, I will know at least two. The max level of known spells is tied to the maximum slot level, not to class level.

You do bring up a good point, I would have the same number of ninth level spells as a level 17-18 wizard, not twentieth level, sorry about that.

PHB, page 164. "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class." You never learn high level spells, and even if you found a way to learn them, you wouldn't be allowed to prepare them.

[JellyPooga]

It actually has just as many ninth level spells and slots as an equivalent wizard or sorcerer, it just gets them a bit later. That's partially made up for by it being a wizard with metamagic.

The thing you may be missing is that while you have the slots of an equivalent Wizard or Sorcerer (ignoring Warlock for the minute), you don't have the spells of an equivalent Wizard or Sorcerer. So a Wizard 2/Sorcerer 3 will have 3rd level spell slots, but could only prepare 1st level Wizard spells and know 2nd level Sorcerer spells. This is a significant loss of power, especially at higher levels.

Warlock doesn't contribute to spell slots at all, so adding Warlock levels will delay both your spell slots and your spells known further.

A Wizard 2/Sorcerer 2/Warlock 3 will have the spell slots of a 4th level full caster (4x1st lvl. and 3x2nd lvl.), 2x2nd lvl. Pact Magic slots, the spells known of a 2nd level Sorcerer (4xCantrip, 3x1st lvl.), the spells known of a 3rd level Warlock (2x Cantrip, max. 2x2nd lvl.and 2x1st lvl.) and be able to prepare 2+(Int mod) Wizard spells of 1st lvl. only.

Compared to a 7th level Wizard, who can actually prepare and cast 4th level spells like Banishment and Greater Invisibility, your multiclass character slinging around Scorching Ray Magic Missile will feel...inadequate.


Unfortunately not, I don't get the needed magical abilities out of a bard.

What "magical abilities" are you looking for? Bard has a very varied mix of spells available and a Lore Bard gets access to every spell in the book from level 6 onward, from Magical Secrets. Not to mention the other abilities it gets.

[Vorpalchicken]

Being 4 or 5 levels behind in spell selection will be aggravating.

Are you interpreting the 14th level Arcana Theurge ability as giving you an 8th and 9th level spell? Otherwise you won't have anything to cast in those slots except powered up lower level spells (which are inferior to actual eighth and ninth level spells.)

Hmmm maybe armor of agathys would be fun as a level 9 spell. But you could do that with a bard.

[DivisibleByZero]

Yep.
Saw that one coming a mile away.

[krunchyfrogg]

I've seen the Warlock 2 (or 3)/Sorcerer X, sometimes with Fighter 2 thrown in, and it is an awesome blasty spellcaster.

I have no idea why Wizard is in the mix here. Please explain.

[Squiddish]

"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
You cant take more than 3 levels of another class and still get 9th level spells known

"Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook."

In other words, if I have the slots, I have the spells. Plus, I can find and learn new spells from scrolls or other spellbooks.

[Vorpalchicken]

, as shown on the Wizard table.

You are not a 17th level wizard.

See "Spells Known" under Multiclassing, Spellcasting

[Squiddish]

The thing you may be missing is that while you have the slots of an equivalent Wizard or Sorcerer (ignoring Warlock for the minute), you don't have the spells of an equivalent Wizard or Sorcerer. So a Wizard 2/Sorcerer 3 will have 3rd level spell slots, but could only prepare 1st level Wizard spells and know 2nd level Sorcerer spells. This is a significant loss of power, especially at higher levels.

Warlock doesn't contribute to spell slots at all, so adding Warlock levels will delay both your spell slots and your spells known further.

A Wizard 2/Sorcerer 2/Warlock 3 will have the spell slots of a 4th level full caster (4x1st lvl. and 3x2nd lvl.), 2x2nd lvl. Pact Magic slots, the spells known of a 2nd level Sorcerer (4xCantrip, 3x1st lvl.), the spells known of a 3rd level Warlock (2x Cantrip, max. 2x2nd lvl.and 2x1st lvl.) and be able to prepare 2+(Int mod) Wizard spells of 1st lvl. only.

Compared to a 7th level Wizard, who can actually prepare and cast 4th level spells like Banishment and Greater Invisibility, your multiclass character slinging around Scorching Ray Magic Missile will feel...inadequate.



What "magical abilities" are you looking for? Bard has a very varied mix of spells available and a Lore Bard gets access to every spell in the book from level 6 onward, from Magical Secrets. Not to mention the other abilities it gets.

For multiclassing purposes, bard counts as only part of a spellcaster, which means I basically need to go all the way in order to get any ninth level slots.

Also, bards are significantly harder to use in this campaign for lore and/or gibberish reasons.


Being 4 or 5 levels behind in spell selection will be aggravating.

Are you interpreting the 14th level Arcana Theurge ability as giving you an 8th and 9th level spell? Otherwise you won't have anything to cast in those slots except powered up lower level spells (which are inferior to actual eighth and ninth level spells.)

Hmmm maybe armor of agathys would be fun as a level 9 spell. But you could do that with a bard.
As I said before, spells known is tied to slots, not to class levels.

I've seen the Warlock 2 (or 3)/Sorcerer X, sometimes with Fighter 2 thrown in, and it is an awesome blasty spellcaster.

I have no idea why Wizard is in the mix here. Please explain.
Basically, MOAR SPELLS. Also RP reasons because my DM will not approve a multiclass unless we can heavily justify it with background.

[Squiddish]

You are not a 17th level wizard.

See "Spells Known" under Multiclassing, Spellcasting

The spell slots are shown on the wizard table, which shows exactly the same spell slots as the one in the multiclassing section.

[DivisibleByZero]

Dude, read my last two posts. And then read everyone's else's posts again.
This is indeed a case of you not understanding the multiclass spellcasting rules.

[Vorpalchicken]

It's on page 164 of the PHB if you need clarification.
Edit- I'll quit being lazy and quote it. "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

[MrStabby]

The spell slots are shown on the wizard table, which shows exactly the same spell slots as the one in the multiclassing section.

But the issue isn't slots. It's spells known.

Sure you could begin to argue that the wizard writing spell description might be in conflict with the rules - until you see it points to the wizard table. Look up your wizard levels in the table that it tells you to look up and read off the level of spells known.

[JellyPooga]

For multiclassing purposes, bard counts as only part of a spellcaster, which means I basically need to go all the way in order to get any ninth level slots.

Bard is as much a full caster as a Wizard or Sorcerer for multiclassing purposes. Bard 3/Wizard 3 has the spell slots of a 6th level full caster, for example.

As others keep saying; you really need to re-read the multiclassing rules again, with a fresh pair of eyes. They don't say what you think they do.

[DivisibleByZero]

And before you ask, no, you cannot add higher level spells to your spellbook and cast them as rituals.
You need to be able to cast them as a single class wizard in order to add them to your spellbook, because that's the way that wizards "learn" their spells.

[Squiddish]

Dude, read my last two posts. And then read everyone's else's posts again.
This is indeed a case of you not understanding the multiclass spellcasting rules.


It's on page 164 of the PHB if you need clarification.

I missed something when I first read it, however, that is moot as my DM is using the rule I mentioned earlier.

[krunchyfrogg]

I missed something when I first read it, however, that is moot as my DM is using the rule I mentioned earlier.

well, sh*t dude, if your DM is changing the rules, you're best off adding in one level of every spellcasting class.

[Squiddish]

well, sh*t dude, if your DM is changing the rules, you're best off adding in one level of every spellcasting class.

Not to that extent, just that wizards and sorcerers have spells limited by slots, not class level.

[DivisibleByZero]

Not to that extent, just that wizards and sorcerers have spells limited by slots, not class level.

Any only wizards and sorcerers? Every caster class (and subclass) uses the same wording.

[Squiddish]

Any only wizards and sorcerers? Every caster class (and subclass) uses the same wording.

Presumably others. However, I will need to double and triple check with my DM. He may decide that it doesn't work that way, in which case I will be rebuilding my character.

[DivisibleByZero]

Presumably others. However, I will need to double and triple check with my DM. He may decide that it doesn't work that way, in which case I will be rebuilding my character.

I would just plan for that if I were you.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Not to that extent, just that wizards and sorcerers have spells limited by slots, not class level.

Yeah, I guess if you have a DM who is willing to throw the PHB out the window, you can have an "Ubermage". (rolls eyes)

[Reosoul]

Spells known being dependent on your spell slot level rather than your levels in the classes would be so hilariously overpowered.

Grab the very best spells from every class without having to deal with the sub-par bits you don't want. It's like Lore Bard's Magical Secrets on steroids. Best DM ever until you realize you're rolling over every encounter thrown at you.

[Squiddish]

Spells known being dependent on your spell slot level rather than your levels in the classes would be so hilariously overpowered.

Grab the very best spells from every class without having to deal with the sub-par bits you don't want. It's like Lore Bard's Magical Secrets on steroids. Best DM ever until you realize you're rolling over every encounter thrown at you.

As I said, I have to double check. It's possible we weren't communicating correctly.

[Corran]

I missed something when I first read it, however, that is moot as my DM is using the rule I mentioned earlier.
I would advise letting the DM in on it (ie how the rules actually work in this case, if they are not aware). Changing the rules in this fashion is quite significant, as with this change multiclassing is rewarded with both versatility and (substancially) increased power. Where it should be versatility at the cost of overall power. Maybe if you are running a campaign where it doesnt matter if ALL the players are seriously unbalanced doesn't matter, then I guess it wouldnt hurt running it this way.

[smcmike]

"Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook."

In other words, if I have the slots, I have the spells. Plus, I can find and learn new spells from scrolls or other spellbooks.

Squiddish, I see where you are coming from. I initially read the rules that way too, and I'm not convinced they are very clearly written to eliminate that interpretation. Still, that's not what was meant.

[NecroDancer]

I know squiddish and I must apologize for misleading him in the multiclass rules, it's easy to get spell slots and known spells mixed up through text.

With deepest apologies,
NecroDancer (the warlock in our current campaign)