WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

[The_Jackal]

The Burning Legion is coming and only you* can save us!

*you and literally all other 12 million WoW players.

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Ozryk#11320 (Feathermoon/Scarlet Crusade)

Prior Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?431889-World-of-Warcraft-XVIII-Draenor-was-merely-a-setback)

[The_Jackal]

It's time for that new post smell!


My Affliction lock pulled 490k on the stairway full of bats in BRH, thanks to the Artifact talent that makes enemies explode on death :P (the rest of the instance had me much lower, of course)

Yeah, Affliction was always my favorite Warlock spec, if I ever decide to main a 'lock, that's the way I'd go. It seems to me that Affliction is the real Warlock, and everyone else is trying to immitate another class.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

It's pretty cool that your relics will shift to suit your currently active Artifact. I was about to vendor one away, before realising I could instead plug it into my off-Artifact.

And now that I'm 110 there seems to be another difficulty bump. God help me if the enemies scale by IL too.

[Psyren]

Argh, I need to hurry and get to 110 so I can play Diablo. I've just been so sleepy after work...


It's time for that new post smell!



Yeah, Affliction was always my favorite Warlock spec, if I ever decide to main a 'lock, that's the way I'd go. It seems to me that Affliction is the real Warlock, and everyone else is trying to immitate another class.

I can maybe see that for Destro, but Demo? They seem pretty unique to me.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Kind of miffed that when I tried to queue up a random dungeon the waiting time was between 30 and 40 minutes. I'm guessing everyone's moved on to Heroics by now, but dang.

When I first got into Legion I randomly queued up for Normal Eye of Azsuna and it popped almost instantly.

I guess I'll just have to work my IL and join everyone in Heroics. Heroic dungeons should count towards the storyline quests right?

[The_Jackal]

I can maybe see that for Destro, but Demo? They seem pretty unique to me.

Demo =~ Low Rent hunter in my mind. Which is not to say I can't appreciate the niche it occupies in both the lore and in the class design, it's just that when I've messed with Demo on my Warlock, I've had this 'why am I not playing my hunter' feeling.


Kind of miffed that when I tried to queue up a random dungeon the waiting time was between 30 and 40 minutes. I'm guessing everyone's moved on to Heroics by now, but dang.

When I first got into Legion I randomly queued up for Normal Eye of Azsuna and it popped almost instantly.

I guess I'll just have to work my IL and join everyone in Heroics. Heroic dungeons should count towards the storyline quests right?

Are you queueing as DPS or support?

[Requizen]

Dinged 110 last night... at 1AM

Because I make poor life choices

[Draken]

Completed the Class Hall Campaign today and slotted my third relic, also got a titanforged relic yesterday, so now I am packing an item level 865 Ebonchill, it almost compensates the fact that I am still getting used to how much more hectic Frost is now (and also the fact that my spec is apparently undertuned).

[MCerberus]

Since I trust this forum's opinions more than most, I want to ask you all:

Does this expansion have less of the crushing existential loneliness that marked WoD? If the answer is yes, what's in the most fun place right now, Frost(DK), Feral, or Elemental?

[Requizen]

Since I trust this forum's opinions more than most, I want to ask you all:

Does this expansion have less of the crushing existential loneliness that marked WoD? If the answer is yes, what's in the most fun place right now, Frost(DK), Feral, or Elemental?

Well, it's no longer "sit in your garrison doing busy stuff until the queue pops", so that's something. Order Halls means even when you're doing the busywork you're surrounded by people of your own class, and Dalaran being the main city again means you'll see lots of people even if you don't interact with them.

World Quests play a big part, though. Since you're being sent out all over the world and so are other people, you'll be out and about and bumping into people, which is a nice change of pace.

I feel that you're only as lonely as you make yourself in WoW. You can ignore everyone else and treat LFG groups as fodder to ignore until the dungeon is over, or you can find groups for things and make it a social experience.

[MCerberus]

I feel that you're only as lonely as you make yourself in WoW. You can ignore everyone else and treat LFG groups as fodder to ignore until the dungeon is over, or you can find groups for things and make it a social experience.

What really turned me off queue groups in WoD was that they turned hostile. Super hostile. I was around for cata heroics, Pandaria rush groups, and "let's try and pub the mammoth boss achievement" and they had nothing compared to WoD, with any attempt at even being basically polite shouted down until you stop trying.

[Draken]

World quests do seen to make people come together much more often.

Although, I must admit I spend very little time in my class hall and have never actually spoken with any of the other mages in there.

My dungeon groups thus far have ranged from the silent mob of efficient pugs to a couple of friendlier, more talkative folks.

[Requizen]

World quests do seen to make people come together much more often.

Although, I must admit I spend very little time in my class hall and have never actually spoken with any of the other mages in there.

Well I don't either, but I also don't talk to people in major cities that much if at all. It's just actually being around them instead of in your Garrison, making the world feel populated and not completely empty.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Are you queueing as DPS or support?

DPS unfortunately. I've already unlocked world quests and am partway through Suramar so maybe my gearing up options will get better. Or I could wait for the weekend and try my luck with guild mates. If it weren't for all the quests gated by dungeon runs I'd be totally fine with the situation tbh.

[Spore]

DPS unfortunately. I've already unlocked world quests and am partway through Suramar so maybe my gearing up options will get better. Or I could wait for the weekend and try my luck with guild mates. If it weren't for all the quests gated by dungeon runs I'd be totally fine with the situation tbh.

Get your butt into heroics. Playing non heroics on 110 is almost completely pointless.

[Psyren]

Yes but at least I need to get into "the zone" to reliably play Balance. I have to not overcap on AP, I have to generate enough AP to always have most desirable abilities to be castable. I am a level into the Scythe of Elune and still struggle with the Moon mechanic. Which is the only thing inelegant about the spec. It feels slapped on. I would have loved for the weapon to copy generated AP (say 20% orso) and release it on a short cooldown in order to smoothen out the rotation a bit. Instead it can make the spikes....spikier and the wet noodle valleys lower...



I hope you at least know when to AE Sunfire a clump of enemies and then just build Astral Power to use more Starfall. Depending on how long the adds live this is more better. I like that part of Balance because you can easily control when your burst comes instead of having your damage spikes be dictacted by your class.



Fire Mage is pretty overtuned atm in my eyes anyway. The mechanics are fun but the numbers are absolutely bonkers (as is MM hunter). Ele Shaman has a good AoE capability but the spec suffers in every other regard.

You can choose your burst with the others too, and I'd argue you have more control than Balance's moon-cycling and AP buildup gets you. If Sunfire and Moonfire gave AP (even a little, or maybe over time), I think that would help a lot - against a large group you could dot everything up after the pull and then Starfall immediately, then use LS as filler for the next one. Or if there were a way to spread your dots using Wrath and Lunar, even a cooldown one, so that you're not choosing between using your GCDs to dot everything or build AP when you really want to be doing both. Meanwhile Shamans get Maelstrom for sneezing and Fire Mages are just causing conflagrations of spreading Ignites, Living Bombs, and Phoenix. It's a lot more fun when you're able to contribute to AoE on a large pack before most things in it are dead or everyone has moved on to their big procs.

Preach's rankings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qbgx81wBSI) do a better job of explaining it than I can, but I'm just meh about Balance this time around, and playing it during the Invasions didn't stoke my enthusiasm any.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Get your butt into heroics. Playing non heroics on 110 is almost completely pointless.

If I had the item level I would, believe me. Wont be long now though.

Unrelated. If a quest requires me to queue for a Random Heroic Draenor dungeon, but that option doesn't appear (because I'm too high level?) does that mean the quest cannot be completed. I can hazard a guess, but just to be sure before I remove the quest from my log.

[Requizen]

You can choose your burst with the others too, and I'd argue you have more control than Balance's moon-cycling and AP buildup gets you. If Sunfire and Moonfire gave AP (even a little, or maybe over time), I think that would help a lot - against a large group you could dot everything up after the pull and then Starfall immediately, then use LS as filler for the next one. Or if there were a way to spread your dots using Wrath and Lunar, even a cooldown one, so that you're not choosing between using your GCDs to dot everything or build AP when you really want to be doing both. Meanwhile Shamans get Maelstrom for sneezing and Fire Mages are just causing conflagrations of spreading Ignites, Living Bombs, and Phoenix. It's a lot more fun when you're able to contribute to AoE on a large pack before most things in it are dead or everyone has moved on to their big procs.

Preach's rankings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qbgx81wBSI) do a better job of explaining it than I can, but I'm just meh about Balance this time around, and playing it during the Invasions didn't stoke my enthusiasm any.

Eeeh, I think Preach is a fine place to start, but he makes it pretty clear that those are just his opinions on the game. I actually rather like the Balance rotation, so ymmv.

[Psyren]

Eeeh, I think Preach is a fine place to start, but he makes it pretty clear that those are just his opinions on the game. I actually rather like the Balance rotation, so ymmv.

I think the rotation is great when you're fighting things that don't die quickly. But when you are, the spec underperforms because you don't have time to layer on your offense and build resource before the burstier classes take things down, and coming in third never feels good.

If I'm in a fight where Starfall feels necessary, chances are decent right now that it will stop being necessary right before I can actually cast it, and the same goes double for Full Moon. And it's a shame because their magic is so beautiful to watch once they really get going.

[Draken]

If I had the item level I would, believe me. Wont be long now though.

Unrelated. If a quest requires me to queue for a Random Heroic Draenor dungeon, but that option doesn't appear (because I'm too high level?) does that mean the quest cannot be completed. I can hazard a guess, but just to be sure before I remove the quest from my log.

I imagine the quest is not to queue for the dungeon, but to complete it. So you would need to either form a group normally and walk into the dungeon by foot (or go in solo if you can, walking up the portal is the relevant part).

[Psyren]

You can also hang onto it until we're timewalking Draenor again. I've completed dungeon quests via timewalking. The rewards for those don't scale but you can still get some transmogs and gold this way.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I can't recall the exact wording off-hand, but it's the one where you get these weird coins along with your "1st Random(?) Heroic Draenor Dungeon of the Day" thing. And you hand them in to some dwarf in Ironforge.

I'll hang on for (possibly) Timewalking though, didn't think about that.

[The Glyphstone]

So does anyone have suggestions on how to beat Leystalker Dro in the Withered Army Training scenario, as a mail-wearing DPS (Shaman, specifically). I only have a single stun, Lighting Surge totem, and trying to face-tank him directly just gets me ripped to shreds even at iLvl838.

[Draken]

You can also hang onto it until we're timewalking Draenor again. I've completed dungeon quests via timewalking. The rewards for those don't scale but you can still get some transmogs and gold this way.

You can see the timewalking schedule on the in game calendar and it looked to me like timewalking is only going up to cataclysm.

[Psyren]

You can see the timewalking schedule on the in game calendar and it looked to me like timewalking is only going up to cataclysm.

Still, I have little doubt that Mists timewalking is going to be a thing - if not now then eventually.

[Icewraith]

I did manage to hit 110 right before leaving for a week of vacation.

I think I may just have squeezed through the ilevel gap that was locking me out of heroics. Is that where I get new relics now that I'm out of leveling quests? So far all I've gotten from world quests are three storm relics, which aren't useful for protection.

Regarding the Ulduar scenario, was it warriors dying as arms or in general? I made it through without incident but did it as prot.

However, I did die to about 20 murlocs outside the sea giant king's cave in southern Azsuna. There were like three healers and one of them was evade bugged up a tower, so shockwave didn't stop it from healing my intended victory rush proc just enough to kill me.

[Antonok]

So does anyone have suggestions on how to beat Leystalker Dro in the Withered Army Training scenario, as a mail-wearing DPS (Shaman, specifically). I only have a single stun, Lighting Surge totem, and trying to face-tank him directly just gets me ripped to shreds even at iLvl838.

Have fun with that guy. On a 836 Vengeance DH with 8 Withered, one of which was a beserker, he tore through all but one of the withered and if I hadn't been a tank he'd of had me too. I'm mostly biding my time until I collect more of the upgrade items, hoping it gets easier cause after Dro it gets bad.

[The Glyphstone]

I've got a full complement of 20 Withered, 25 when I engaged him, but he slaughtered me before any of my minions could really hurt him. They're good DPS, but I didn't have the survivability, and I couldn't kite him in GW either.

[Requizen]

I failed a mission that was required for my class order quest chain... will it come back up? Because that would really suck lol.

[Icewraith]

I failed a mission that was required for my class order quest chain... will it come back up? Because that would really suck lol.

How did you manage that?

[Antonok]

Fare thee well Metzen. (http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749157269#post-1)

[Corvus]

So that is why they killed Varian off...makes me wonder if Thrall is next.

[The Glyphstone]

Must be nice to have made so much money off your creation that you can retire at 42.

[Psyren]

Must be nice to have made so much money off your creation that you can retire at 42.

42's nothing - Notch retired at 35!

[Alent]

Huh. I am quite envious of him for being able to retire at that young.

So, question, my free time just went to crap a week ago and I have yet to step into a dungeon in Legion with what little time I do have. I'm rockin' about 786 iLev at 110 on my Protadin, wondering if I should try to gear up through regulars or finish Highmountain and Suramar before going into a regular.

Also curious what everyone's experience is with dungeon groups in Legion so far, if they're as angry and antisocial as their WoD counterparts or if they're more chill again, since dying seems far more likely than usual.

[Requizen]

Well good on him. I'll miss his VA roles but I'm happy that he's focusing on his family.

Finally got geared enough for heroics, and queued up to get two 840 Heroic Titanforged items last night. Feels good.

[Rizhail]

Well good on him. I'll miss his VA roles but I'm happy that he's focusing on his family.

He's stated via Twitter that he'll still be voicing Thrall (and I expect a few others). Once you get that high in a company, retirement isn't so much "I'm completely no longer involved" and more "I'm occasionally brought on as a consultant, when the fun of rolling in piles of money while the kids are at school and the SO is working has worn thin". He won't be heading any part of the company any more, but don't be surprised if he still pops up at every Blizzcon, voices multiple characters, and other such things.

[Icewraith]

IME you'll want to do some dungeon groups because several of them get you Titan relics which get you a nice chunk of Artifact Power (and unlock an appearance IIRC).

So I think I either just hit or am one gear upgrade away from Heroics, are they a big step up in difficulty from regulars? At what point sould I even think about Mythic?

[The_Jackal]

IME you'll want to do some dungeon groups because several of them get you Tital relics which get you a nice chunk of Artifact Power (and unlock an appearance IIRC).

So I think I either just hit or am one gear upgrade away from Heroics, are they a big step up in difficulty from regulars? At what point sould I even think about Mythic?

I wouldn't bother to set foot in Mythic before your ilvl is 825. At that point you should have default heroic gear in most slots, with a handful of warforged pieces and a couple of lower level bits.

[turbo164]

I wouldn't bother to set foot in Mythic before your ilvl is 825. At that point you should have default heroic gear in most slots, with a handful of warforged pieces and a couple of lower level bits.

If you have friends/guild to Mythic with, focus adds and don't stand in fire, having one or two people <810 is still doable.

If you're using group finder, then yeah expect to get kicked unless you're ilvl 9001.

[Delusion]

Finally got my computer fixed this weekend and have been leveling a havoc demon hunter. Currently only 104, but thus far it has been a blast. Really delivers the feeling of turning groups of mobs into sushi. No downtime but I can still get in danger if I screw up (Though that might change now that I have Soul Rend).

Figthing against large groups of mobs and dropping to 10% only to jump back to 100% in two seconds as the mobs start dying is plain hilarious.

My only worry is that I see a lot of pain in my future with playing momentum spec in dungeons and fel rushing into bad stuff. I already once Vengeful Retreated down from Dalaran. Thank goddess for glide and the portal to Fel Hammer being nearby.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I wouldn't bother to set foot in Mythic before your ilvl is 825. At that point you should have default heroic gear in most slots, with a handful of warforged pieces and a couple of lower level bits.

Eh?

I was being accepted as a Tank when I was as low as 817, and, provided the healer was decent, we managed just fine. No one seems to mind the occasional wipe, and the content is doable.

If you're a DPS though? Forget it, unless you brought friends.

[The Glyphstone]

If you have friends/guild to Mythic with, focus adds and don't stand in fire, having one or two people <810 is still doable.

If you're using group finder, then yeah expect to get kicked unless you're ilvl 9001.

Just stay out of Violet Hold, though, below 830+ or so. At least one of the random bosses (Blood Princess) there can't be overcome with skill, it's simply a brutal DPS check with very tight tuning. Getting her as Boss #1 will basically kill your run; getting her as Boss #2 is even worse because it ruins your lockout for the week.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Just stay out of Violet Hold, though, below 830+ or so. At least one of the random bosses (Blood Princess) there can't be overcome with skill, it's simply a brutal DPS check with very tight tuning. Getting her as Boss #1 will basically kill your run; getting her as Boss #2 is even worse because it ruins your lockout for the week.

Tanked that one at 820, with only one wipe. But yes, that one needs high DPS or it's REALLY rough. That whole dungeon is a pain, honestly: the elite packs really sting.

Hilariously, I've found it's possible to be OVER-geared for the first boss of Eye of Azsuna. If you have too much AoE you actually burn down both mobs too quickly, and someone ends up speared. As a Paladin, this is frustrating, because Consecrate.

[Icewraith]

Is it just me, or did they really increase the number of trash packs per boss this expansion? Especially in, say, darkheart thicket.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Is it just me, or did they really increase the number of trash packs per boss this expansion? Especially in, say, darkheart thicket.

I think it's just certain areas of certain dungeons.

Clearing trash around Serpentrix and the first Eye boss? Awful.

Entering the Halls of Valor? Frustrating.

First-to-second and second-to-third Darkheart bosses? Oof.

The push to the final Vault of the Wardens? Ew.

ALL of Black Rook Hold? Dear god no.

But other than that I find you can bypass a lot of the trash. So I'm not sure it's WORSE than it used to be overall, but where you can't avoid it it definitely feels that way.

[The_Jackal]

Eh?

I was being accepted as a Tank when I was as low as 817, and, provided the healer was decent, we managed just fine. No one seems to mind the occasional wipe, and the content is doable.

If you're a DPS though? Forget it, unless you brought friends.


If you have friends/guild to Mythic with, focus adds and don't stand in fire, having one or two people <810 is still doable.

If you're using group finder, then yeah expect to get kicked unless you're ilvl 9001.

I based my recommendation on the assumption that you wishing to pull your weight when you show up. The idea that you should get mostly geared up from the previous progression tier before you start off the next should not be controversial.


I think it's just certain areas of certain dungeons.

Clearing trash around Serpentrix and the first Eye boss? Awful.

Entering the Halls of Valor? Frustrating.

First-to-second and second-to-third Darkheart bosses? Oof.

The push to the final Vault of the Wardens? Ew.

ALL of Black Rook Hold? Dear god no.

But other than that I find you can bypass a lot of the trash. So I'm not sure it's WORSE than it used to be overall, but where you can't avoid it it definitely feels that way.

I think the focus on minimizing trash is somewhat wrongheaded. If you want your MMO to be immersive and feel like a real world, then it's probably a good idea that your instances don't just feel like a log flume with loot at the end. But then, I'm the guy whose favorite dungeon is Blackrock Depths, so I just might be the crazy one.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I based my recommendation on the assumption that you wishing to pull your weight when you show up. The idea that you should get mostly geared up from the previous progression tier before you start off the next should not be controversial.

I mean...I was specifically asked by the group I did that with to join them for three more, precisely because I WAS pulling my weight. But then again, Tank. Often mechanics > gear level. :smalltongue:


I think the focus on minimizing trash is somewhat wrongheaded. If you want your MMO to be immersive and feel like a real world, then it's probably a good idea that your instances don't just feel like a log flume with loot at the end. But then, I'm the guy whose favorite dungeon is Blackrock Depths, so I just might be the crazy one.

Eh? I personally find it very engaging to attempt to avoid pulls that are difficult to avoid, or cut down on the number of mobs you fight at one point or another by properly maneuvering and fighting around patrols. Different strokes, I guess.

My most hated dungeon is Violet Hold, for example, because it's full of trash packs that just aren't interesting. If all trash packs were as engaging as the pre-first-Boss Dragon-pack in Halls of Valor, or the pre-second-boss Archer/Champion grouping in Black Rook Hold, I'd be much happier to fight them.

Too many are just "stand in one place, avoid a few easy AoEs, and don't die." That's pretty boring to me.

Also, wait. "Immersive?" "Real World?" Two points here: firstly, no group of enemies in the real world will sit still while you kill their friends not 100 feet from them. Secondly, why on earth would you "realistically" fight enemies that you don't HAVE to fight to accomplish your objective? :smalltongue:

[Icewraith]

I based my recommendation on the assumption that you wishing to pull your weight when you show up. The idea that you should get mostly geared up from the previous progression tier before you start off the next should not be controversial.



I think the focus on minimizing trash is somewhat wrongheaded. If you want your MMO to be immersive and feel like a real world, then it's probably a good idea that your instances don't just feel like a log flume with loot at the end. But then, I'm the guy whose favorite dungeon is Blackrock Depths, so I just might be the crazy one.

I don't want any of my instances to feel like a log flume, but mainly because I have log flume phobia. There is something about drops on log flume-style rides that seriously freaks me out. And I go on marquee multi loop roller coasters and not-completely-safe-looking-county-fair-deathtraps without issues. So even though I know it's ridiculous, it still happens... which is why I deliberately use the term "phobia" there, because it is one.

Anyways, I want my dungeons to feel more like a thrill ride, with lots of danger and excitement, than a dark ride, where you sit in a slow moving vehicle and watch everything pass by at the same slow pace. Large amounts of boring trash feels like the latter and not the former.

So specifically in Darkheart Thicket, I've been pulling two packs at once whenever possible- but I don't know if that's going to be sustainable into Heroic/Mythic. There have also been a few instances where I've been able to bypass the trash but some pug accidentally pulls the group anyways. Other times it seems like some of the trash mobs will aoe aggro everything in the area once they get low on health regardless of what you do, or there's a cast I'm missing that does that.

Also.... second to third Darkheart bosses are bad trash? That's just the river area with the blood elementals, right? That area goes way faster than the pre first boss trash that takes forever. It's also possible that as dps gear levels get higher the trash won't last as long and will be less obnoxious.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So specifically in Darkheart Thicket, I've been pulling two packs at once whenever possible- but I don't know if that's going to be sustainable into Heroic/Mythic.

Be careful with that in Mythic. It...stings if you pick the wrong two. Considerably. You may well lose a DPS if two+ cats randomly decide to jump the same target.

Specifically, avoid double-pulling the two packs that lurk by the entrance to the path to the first boss: the one just inside the cave mouth. That's a double pull that can and will wipe groups on Heroic/Mythic.


Also.... second to third Darkheart bosses are bad trash? That's just the river area with the blood elementals, right? That area goes way faster than the pre first boss trash that takes forever. It's also possible that as dps gear levels get higher the trash won't last as long and will be less obnoxious.

Actually, I mean pre-first and pre-second. Oops! But yeah: I'm in agreement with you, and just spaced out.

[The_Jackal]

I mean...I was specifically asked by the group I did that with to join them for three more, precisely because I WAS pulling my weight. But then again, Tank. Often mechanics > gear level. :smalltongue:



Eh? I personally find it very engaging to attempt to avoid pulls that are difficult to avoid, or cut down on the number of mobs you fight at one point or another by properly maneuvering and fighting around patrols. Different strokes, I guess.

My most hated dungeon is Violet Hold, for example, because it's full of trash packs that just aren't interesting. If all trash packs were as engaging as the pre-first-Boss Dragon-pack in Halls of Valor, or the pre-second-boss Archer/Champion grouping in Black Rook Hold, I'd be much happier to fight them.

Too many are just "stand in one place, avoid a few easy AoEs, and don't die." That's pretty boring to me.

Also, wait. "Immersive?" "Real World?" Two points here: firstly, no group of enemies in the real world will sit still while you kill their friends not 100 feet from them. Secondly, why on earth would you "realistically" fight enemies that you don't HAVE to fight to accomplish your objective? :smalltongue:

I want the dungeon to have a sense of place. Yes, I'm pretty sure that such realistic things like alarms and active surveillance are probably inimical to gameplay, and would make them more realistic, but nevertheless, the '3 bosses and a couple of trash packs' model really makes the dungeon experience feel really stale. BRD has bedrooms, a bar, workshops, gates, prisons. It feels like a place where Dark Iron Dwarves live, instead of the area they spawn in while waiting to be killed in an orderly fashion, and given my druthers, more of the World of Warcraft would feel like a world. I'm not suggesting that players should go out of their way to fight trash that doens't block them from their objective, but the notion that the dungeon 'has too much trash' is one that has pernicious consequences, if acted on by the developers.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

...but the notion that the dungeon 'has too much trash' is one that has pernicious consequences, if acted on by the developers.

I find it odd that you responded with this then: "I think the focus on minimizing trash is somewhat wrongheaded."

I think a DEVELOPMENT focus on having no trash would be wrong, yes. But a GAMEPLAY focus on minimizing FIGHTS with trash isn't the same to me.

Halls of Valor, for example, feels kind of like a mead hall. That's cool. The second area is literally covered with animals: also cool. But I don't want to fight ALL of that, so I don't. Not sure there's an issue here.

This expansion seems to have a LOT of trash, but makes much of it avoidable. That's the best of both worlds, I'd say. You can fight through the entire crew of the ship on Maw, or go into the edges of the map to kill all the creatures that inhabit the Eye, but you're not OBLIGATED to. :smallbiggrin:

[The_Jackal]

I find it odd that you responded with this then: "I think the focus on minimizing trash is somewhat wrongheaded."

I think a DEVELOPMENT focus on having no trash would be wrong, yes. But a GAMEPLAY focus on minimizing FIGHTS with trash isn't the same to me.

Halls of Valor, for example, feels kind of like a mead hall. That's cool. The second area is literally covered with animals: also cool. But I don't want to fight ALL of that, so I don't. Not sure there's an issue here.

This expansion seems to have a LOT of trash, but makes much of it avoidable. That's the best of both worlds, I'd say. You can fight through the entire crew of the ship on Maw, or go into the edges of the map to kill all the creatures that inhabit the Eye, but you're not OBLIGATED to. :smallbiggrin:

Blame it on my phrasing then. However, in general, I rarely find 'dodging' trash to be worth the bother. Another 2 minute fight, more or less, isn't a big deal, and often pays dividends by preventing facepulls and wipes later on. But I generally agree with you, nobody should be going out of their way to fight static trash that isn't a danger of killing your party.

[Spore]

To be honest WoW could use a bit of diversity in their voice actors. All female night elves sounding like Tyrande is not that big a problem ... unless the whole quest chain revolves around her and her clones acompany her search for "HER BELOVED ONE"!!!!

Good lord is the acting in Legion jumping between grueling (WHERE ARE YOU MY BELOVED!) and impressively great (Runas the Shamed). Same for the artifacts quests: They vary between "look, here is her bow, now shut up about Alleria", "Thrall fell down and now wont hold the Doomhammer anymore" and impressive original ideas like the shadow weapon, survival Spear or the talking skull of demonology.

[Icewraith]

I want the dungeon to have a sense of place. Yes, I'm pretty sure that such realistic things like alarms and active surveillance are probably inimical to gameplay, and would make them more realistic, but nevertheless, the '3 bosses and a couple of trash packs' model really makes the dungeon experience feel really stale. BRD has bedrooms, a bar, workshops, gates, prisons. It feels like a place where Dark Iron Dwarves live, instead of the area they spawn in while waiting to be killed in an orderly fashion, and given my druthers, more of the World of Warcraft would feel like a world. I'm not suggesting that players should go out of their way to fight trash that doens't block them from their objective, but the notion that the dungeon 'has too much trash' is one that has pernicious consequences, if acted on by the developers.

I'd love if the first half of Darkheart Thicket had more purpose to it instead of "Here's a bunch of evil nature thingies we put on a path for you to hack through". It's just as bad as the first part of Firelands- "Have a bowl full of Fire Elemental creatures!"

[The Glyphstone]

I'm kind of looking forward to Emerald Nightmare on that note, some of the bosses look interesting. #1 is an evil zombie dragon, nothing particularly noteworthy, but both the fight and the ascetics for #2 seem like they'll be delightfully Lovecraftian in a sense we haven't gotten since Yogg-Saron.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'd love if the first half of Darkheart Thicket had more purpose to it instead of "Here's a bunch of evil nature thingies we put on a path for you to hack through". It's just as bad as the first part of Firelands- "Have a bowl full of Fire Elemental creatures!"

I feel that way about a lot of dungeons, honestly.

Halls of Valor and Maw are the only ones that I really feel have a good, logical structure to them. The others sometimes just seem like somewhat related bosses smashed together into an encounter.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Roaming the open world as Prot Warrior has been interesting. It's great when you can just head straight for any world boss and not worry (or worry less, in the case of the really hard ones) about gathering enough numbers.

Also had the hilarious experience of collecting Archaeological fragments in a zone infested with Elite enemies. Fun times.

[Requizen]

I feel that way about a lot of dungeons, honestly.

Halls of Valor and Maw are the only ones that I really feel have a good, logical structure to them. The others sometimes just seem like somewhat related bosses smashed together into an encounter.

Eh, I like Vault of the Wardens. I know a lot of people hate it, but after doing the DH starting questline it's cool to go back and see all the things that were locked away start to break out and have to deal with the things that have escaped before they bust up Azeroth. Yeah it's basically Violet Hold v2 (even though neu-Violet Hold is Violet Hold v2), but I quite like it.

[Icewraith]

Roaming the open world as Prot Warrior has been interesting. It's great when you can just head straight for any world boss and not worry (or worry less, in the case of the really hard ones) about gathering enough numbers.

Also had the hilarious experience of collecting Archaeological fragments in a zone infested with Elite enemies. Fun times.

As a Prot Warrior, most of the time, seeing an elite opponent just means it will take a long time to kill. When that's not the case, and you've clearly bitten off more than you can chew.... Heroic Leap is a great help in getting out of trouble.

On non-tank characters, elites seem more like death sentences. Granted I don't know those classes as well, so maybe I'm just not doing things right.

[Requizen]

As a Prot Warrior, most of the time, seeing an elite opponent just means it will take a long time to kill. When that's not the case, and you've clearly bitten off more than you can chew.... Heroic Leap is a great help in getting out of trouble.

On non-tank characters, elites seem more like death sentences. Granted I don't know those classes as well, so maybe I'm just not doing things right.

I've not had a single problem doing Elites or WQ Elites as Beast Mastery. Revive is super fast to cast and costs nothing, and between Aspect of the Turtle and Endurance I don't feel any threat of dying myself. But that's always been a strong point of Hunters.

[Icewraith]

I've not had a single problem doing Elites or WQ Elites as Beast Mastery. Revive is super fast to cast and costs nothing, and between Aspect of the Turtle and Endurance I don't feel any threat of dying myself. But that's always been a strong point of Hunters.

D'oh. Non tank non tanking pet classes, I should have said.

[MCerberus]

So I decided to resub and check out Legion do decompress after project support at work.
Didn't take long to run into "you should have read the books lol" in the form of the pillars. Those they just, kinda say are a thing and it's of supreme importance because reasons.

But that's not here or there.
I picked ele. It's in a bad place at level 100 it seems. Also where did all my buttons go?

[The Glyphstone]

Nope. The Pillars of Creation aren't mentioned in any of the books either. They're entirely new lore invented for Legion, at best you got a little info about them from the Legion pre-patch quests (and not much).

Elemental is in kind of a bad spot right now, yeah.

[MCerberus]

Nope. The Pillars of Creation aren't mentioned in any of the books either. They're entirely new lore invented for Legion, at best you got a little info about them from the Legion pre-patch quests (and not much).

Elemental is in kind of a bad spot right now, yeah.

It's kind of offputting though. The weapon quests had a lot of backfill in case you missed, in my case MoP. Then you get back and the NPC says that you can finally go get the pillars.

"Okay that's great, what are they and why must I get them?"
-"You can leave now"

[The Glyphstone]

Honestly, you learn more about the respective Pillars in their actual zones. It's enough to know that they are powerful Titan artifacts, and collecting them all is necessary to close the giant Legion portal and save the world.

[Icewraith]

On a side note, thanks to world quests and a couple generous Heroic dungeons I'll be skipping most Heroic dungeons and going straight to Mythic.

At least when I'm with our DH buddy who was pulling 130K in Maw. Holy crap. Or unholy crap, as the case may be.

Only downside is a lot of the gear I'm getting has less haste on it than what it's replacing. I want all of the haste. And all of the Shatter the Bones Relics.

[turbo164]

It's kind of offputting though. The weapon quests had a lot of backfill in case you missed, in my case MoP. Then you get back and the NPC says that you can finally go get the pillars.

"Okay that's great, what are they and why must I get them?"
-"You can leave now"

There's a little more on the Hammer here:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/20177164/new-comic-world-of-warcraft-legion-3-highmountain-a-mountain-divided

(the others are pretty cool too!)

[Androgeus]

On Pillars of Creation, I think you can still do the quest where we learn about them. Think you pick it up in The Violet Citidel.

In other complaints, just did Doomhammer quest and the whole thing just seemed pointless with parts unexplained (e.g. Where did the lava Doomhammer come from?)

[GungHo]

On Pillars of Creation, I think you can still do the quest where we learn about them. Think you pick it up in The Violet Citidel.
Seriously, guys... It's an adventure hook. The DM mentioned it offhandedly a few sessions ago and now he's decided to do something with it. It doesn't matter that we weren't paying attention. He was.

[Androgeus]

Seriously, guys... It's an adventure hook. The DM mentioned it offhandedly a few sessions ago and now he's decided to do something with it. It doesn't matter that we weren't paying attention. He was.

I mean it was more the DM sent us to go get some information, which we got but no one actually bothered to see what it was. At least it was better than that entire session where he had some Npcs talk to some ghost and then ended the session

[Selpharia]

So I've recently started playing, since a few other friends who, unlike me, had played for a while in previous expansions, we're coming back for Legion. I used the character boost to start a level 100 resto/balance Druid. So far, it's been...pretty overwhelming.

I've tried to read guides to learn what I'm supposed to be doing, but I feel like I'm leveling way too slowly and am struggling to grasp the fast-clicking pace of combat (I have a hand issue that makes using hot keys difficult), as well as the incredible number of abilities that I have to choose from and use. I don't really grok all the stats and gear I'm collecting, so it's hard to get a sense of a goal for my character build. I don't know whether it's me or the game, but I feel really weak, since it seems to take forever to finish off enemies and travel is agonizingly slow. Add the random bankers who seem to swarm around every quest giver and it's all incredibly frustrating. I mean, some of it could be that the last MMO I played was City of Heroes, where I could routinely clear many enemies at once instead of fighting them in ones and twos, and travel was much faster and safer.

So, I guess my question is if anyone has any suggestions for getting started and for diminishing what so far feels like a lot of tedium and incomprehensible piles of slowly increasing numbers? I've enjoyed my first artifact quest and the Aszuna quests, because they give me a sense of place in the world, but I feel like the game is getting in the way more than adding to that enjoyment.

[turbo164]

Seriously, guys... It's an adventure hook. The DM mentioned it offhandedly a few sessions ago and now he's decided to do something with it. It doesn't matter that we weren't paying attention. He was.

Luckily my meeting was a skype call and I could mute my line when I read thix :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Hmm, now I'm picturing a DM of the Rings/Darths and Droids style comic for WoW...

[Spore]

Where did the lava Doomhammer come from?)

Well, it's in the name, isn't it? Therazane's somethingorother. But to be honest I would have switched up the Shaman's weapons. Elemental gets the Doomhammer along with some curio for the offhand or twohanded. Enhancement get the Fists of Ra'den (or even better, the Fists of the Heavens since I cannot fathom how a weapon from the elemental plane of AIR gets into the hands of a monk) and Restoration get an actual Staff instead of a Wand plus Shield (but I guess the PvP fraction would have whined if they didn't have the extra armor from a shield).

[Icewraith]

Lesson learned:

When you complete your class hall questline and unlock your third relic slot, check your world quests BEFORE equipping the relic you get from the quest that unlocks the relic slot.

It may just happen to be that a world quest is currently offering you a higher level version of the same type of relic (i.e. Fire) with a bonus to a better skill, and you have an off-spec artifact that uses that type of relic (Fire) that the relic you just got would still be a tremendous upgrade for.

Events may also transpire such that the World Quest relic drops Titanforged, and now it's so much better than your old relic (that you just got) you really can't not socket it in your primary artifact.

[MCerberus]

I mean it was more the DM sent us to go get some information, which we got but no one actually bothered to see what it was. At least it was better than that entire session where he had some Npcs talk to some ghost and then ended the session

I just realized something.
DMPCs
What happened when he got bored of Thrall? Khadgar.

And it gets creepy if you think of Aggra as a crush (end of Dragonsoul)

[Psyren]

I had a general question regarding difficulty. It's pretty clear to me, now that they have this class identity thing more or less down, that certain classes have more complicated rotations and harder-to-use abilities than others. For example, tanking on a Prot Warrior or Prot Paladin is a far more forgiving (even soothing) experience than doing the same on a VDH or Brewmaster; similarly, healing well on a Disc Priest or Holy Paladin is much more challenging than doing the same on a Holy Priest or Resto Druid. Also similarly, DPS specs like Arcane Mage and Shadow Priest have much higher skill ceilings than, say, BM Hunter and Fire Mage, at least they seem that way to me.

I see the ideal (and possibly targeted) state for specs in Legion as being similar to loadouts in Overwatch or Diablo - they're all meant to be relatively balanced with one another (meaning that if you have X gear and understand Y rotation, you can win at Z content once you learn your role in it), but depending on one's playstyle and appetite for that kind of complexity, different people are going to have better results with some kits than others. The more complex ones can potentially reward you by bringing extra utility, but the simpler ones forgive you for making mistakes more readily with an abundance of powerful cooldowns and a focus on passive vs. active mitigation or procs.

My question therefore is - shouldn't Blizzard make some kind of effort to call that out to people? Especially folks jumping in for the first time, or after a long hiatus. "Hey," it might say, "I saw you going for that Brewmaster Monk - now, they absolutely can tank at endgame, but with only one real cooldown (two if you include your artifact), you'd better know the fights fairly well already, plan to play with closer friends, or be a pretty quick study!" I think something as simple as a difficulty star rating (1-3) next to each spec on the character select screen, similar to Overwatch, would be ideal. I'd know right off that the spec I'm about to sink hundreds of hours into will require me to be thinking several steps further ahead than I would on this other spec that fills more or less the same niche.

Am I mistaken in thinking some kits are harder to master than others? If not and that's the case, do you think such a difficulty callout might have merit?

[Icewraith]

So I've recently started playing, since a few other friends who, unlike me, had played for a while in previous expansions, we're coming back for Legion. I used the character boost to start a level 100 resto/balance Druid. So far, it's been...pretty overwhelming.

I've tried to read guides to learn what I'm supposed to be doing, but I feel like I'm leveling way too slowly and am struggling to grasp the fast-clicking pace of combat (I have a hand issue that makes using hot keys difficult), as well as the incredible number of abilities that I have to choose from and use. I don't really grok all the stats and gear I'm collecting, so it's hard to get a sense of a goal for my character build. I don't know whether it's me or the game, but I feel really weak, since it seems to take forever to finish off enemies and travel is agonizingly slow. Add the random bankers who seem to swarm around every quest giver and it's all incredibly frustrating. I mean, some of it could be that the last MMO I played was City of Heroes, where I could routinely clear many enemies at once instead of fighting them in ones and twos, and travel was much faster and safer.

So, I guess my question is if anyone has any suggestions for getting started and for diminishing what so far feels like a lot of tedium and incomprehensible piles of slowly increasing numbers? I've enjoyed my first artifact quest and the Aszuna quests, because they give me a sense of place in the world, but I feel like the game is getting in the way more than adding to that enjoyment.

I'd say keep questing, and make sure you're keeping your gear fairly up to date (if things are taking a really long time to die, you may have significant gear upgrades sitting in your bags). Don't hoard your artifact power, it's useless if it's just sitting in your bags. There will always be more later.

I missed the bit where you said what spec you were originally, and now that I see you're playing druid I think I understand a bit more what you're talking about. If you want to clear large amounts of mobs and be really (really!) durable, consider trying out Guardian. Also, druids have some really complicated talents that play to the strengths of the other specs. The cat talent for passive run speed or the resto talent for passive healing might make a difference in your questing speed. Also when mobs get low on health, swtch over to your faster casting spells. If something is at 1% health, there's no need to slog through another Lunar Flare and overkill it by a huge chunk when you could just Moonfire it and move on. Conversely, when aggroing single targets, Lunar Flare->Starsurge is as frontloaded as it gets.

Gearwise, there's only a few stats, and while leveling you basically want more of all of them- Intellect makes you hit harder, haste makes you cast faster, crit makes you crit more often, mastery makes some of your spec-specific stuff hit harder or work better or more often, and versatility makes you hit a little bit harder and take a little less damage. Oh, and Stamina gives you more health. Leech, sockets, and warforged/titanforged show up randomly as a little bonus on gear. Between two roughly equal pieces of gear the presence of one of those will probably break an apparent tie, but otherwise they're not worth worrying about too much. Especially sockets- you're still leveling, and it's early in the expansion, so gear tends to get replaced pretty quick.

[Spore]

Am I mistaken in thinking some kits are harder to master than others? If not and that's the case, do you think such a difficulty callout might have merit?

You are not. And Legion has overdone this in my eyes. Compare a Marksmanship Hunter (3 Buttons, THREE BUTTONS!) with a well played Fire Mage (and they're not even the hardest DPS out there). It is MENTAL. Shadows play to their hearts content and still get outDPSed by Havoc Demon Hunters using their 4 skills (to be a little fair, the hardest part of Havoc DH is staying out of the fire due to your fighting style).

[MCerberus]

You are not. And Legion has overdone this in my eyes. Compare a Marksmanship Hunter (3 Buttons, THREE BUTTONS!) with a well played Fire Mage (and they're not even the hardest DPS out there). It is MENTAL. Shadows play to their hearts content and still get outDPSed by Havoc Demon Hunters using their 4 skills (to be a little fair, the hardest part of Havoc DH is staying out of the fire due to your fighting style).

*gets out cane*
in my day having 3 buttons made hunters the most complex dps rotation in the game. And we DPS'd uphill both ways... and still did less damage than rogues... and were stuck with gimmick mechanics in order to be relevant.

[Requizen]

Back when I first started Hunters could play with a mouse scroll wheel for their entire rotation.

[MCerberus]

Back when I first started Hunters could play with a mouse scroll wheel for their entire rotation.

One button BM. A dark time indeed

[Spore]

*gets out cane*
in my day having 3 buttons made hunters the most complex dps rotation in the game. And we DPS'd uphill both ways... and still did less damage than rogues... and were stuck with gimmick mechanics in order to be relevant.


Back when I first started Hunters could play with a mouse scroll wheel for their entire rotation.

This might have been the case but WoW has evolved since then. And I feel it has devolved a bit now. I am very okay with BM right now even though it is just 5 abilities and a longer cooldown. You can still micro your pets, you can play around with three pet specs (for soloing) and you still do an effortless good damage. But MM is beyond simplistic which I would be okay with if it weren't the insanest rofltastic damage i have ever seen.

If you want insane damage you should at least have the complexity of a rogue. They are by far not hard to learn but require positioning, a certain feel for the class.

[Requizen]

The complexity in MM comes from not pulling the entire dungeon when you do your rotation.

But seriously, hearing other Hunters tell me that BM has a braindead rotation and tout MM as "engaging" makes me laugh.

[Draken]

Consider, for a moment, Frost mage.

The idea behind our spec is simple, build up Fingers of Frost, and then dump them during a high-damage window provided by Rune of Power, (cursed be this talent that is warping our whole class around it). Sounds simple enough.

Optimal Frost mage play involves building the initial set of FoF charges while building up a considerable number of Bone Chilling stacks (goes up to 12) and then maintaining them in spite of their 8 second duration, through our 10 second damage window in RoP, which must then be contained within the 12 second duration of Frost Bomb. For further optimal damage, after unloading the first three charges, you must find the proper timing to:
1-cast frostbolt or frozen orb to keep your Bone Chilling up;
2-keep Frozen bomb up;
3.1-use Water Jet to refill on FoF;
3.2-use Ebonbolt to refill on FoF;
3.3-use Frozen Touch to refill on FoF;
Also, try your best to not clip FoF charges between frostbolt, frozen orb and your elemental randomly generating the things.

Also, use Flurry ideally when you have no FoF charges and froth in those not rare situations where you pop out Flurry and suddenly a more or less wasted FoF charge randomly appears.

Imagine having to manage this puzzle every 40-60 seconds when the cooldowns align in addition to fight mechanics. It is insane and I don't have it completely down yet.

And then I have Glacial Spike for some ungodly reason, 100% chance I will change it for Thermal Void for proper raiding.

Bluh. My spec has some buffs on the PTR, but what it doesn't have that I really want is 4 extra seconds on Bone Chilling.

Not even going to talk about Chain Reaction, that thing is impossible to work with. Six seconds duration. Triggered by frostbolt crits. Argh.

[Delusion]

I was just trying out frost mage on the class trial. Was really fun. I usually avoid pet classes like plaque but water ele didn't really bother me because its ranged. (Thought about lonely winter, but The Ray of Frost was too hilarious not to use.

And just when I thought I had settled on boosting a resto druid. Back to drawing board it seems.

[MCerberus]

Decided to start the expansion over with my frost DK.
Spec wasn't changed all that much with the great button removal. Core mechanic of proc whack-a-mole intact.
Lost a ton of survivability and utility though, makes me sad.
Much more lore in the class hall quests. Get the feeling Mograine is setting up to stab me in the back though.

[Spore]

I was just trying out frost mage on the class trial. Was really fun. I usually avoid pet classes like plaque but water ele didn't really bother me because its ranged. (Thought about lonely winter, but The Ray of Frost was too hilarious not to use.

And just when I thought I had settled on boosting a resto druid. Back to drawing board it seems.

It is maybe not the best time to roll a Frost Mage right now. Fire Mage dwarfs everything to the point where the class hall is full with 98% of Fire Mages. Dem balls...


Lost a ton of survivability and utility though, makes me sad.

Noticed that, too. But this just makes Dark Succor procs all the more appealing. You basically get a beefed up Victory Rush.

[MCerberus]

Noticed that, too. But this just makes Dark Succor procs all the more appealing. You basically get a beefed up Victory Rush.

I think the frost artifact "boss fight" was meant to teach that. "oh no, look at these annoying ice spikes littered everywhere that will hurt you if you step on them. I hope nobody has uses frost scythe on them to get free healing procs *wink*"

[Spore]

I think the frost artifact "boss fight" was meant to teach that. "oh no, look at these annoying ice spikes littered everywhere that will hurt you if you step on them. I hope nobody has uses frost scythe on them to get free healing procs *wink*"

I used Blood spec on that fight. It took about 7 minutes because the Lichking healed himself up to full.

[MCerberus]

I used Blood spec on that fight. It took about 7 minutes because the Lichking healed himself up to full.

Had more trouble with the 3 mobs + quest mob pull right before that honestly. As frost you just scythe those packs into oblivion

[Psyren]

Shadows play to their hearts content and still get outDPSed by Havoc Demon Hunters using their 4 skills (to be a little fair, the hardest part of Havoc DH is staying out of the fire due to your fighting style).

Wait, what? Shadow is the best ranged dps in the game right now and only a couple of specs have it beat overall. Havoc is decent but doesn't come close, and even melee Hunters have them beat right now.


Also, druids have some really complicated talents that play to the strengths of the other specs. The cat talent for passive run speed or the resto talent for passive healing might make a difference in your questing speed.

Can I just say I love that they did this? It really makes them feel like the hybridiest hybrid (if I can use that non-word) which in my mind is exactly how druids should feel.

I can actually quest in Resto spec with Balance Affinity because Moonkin form and Starsurge means it doesn't take me 2 years to kill everything.

[Spore]

I had somewhat a change of heart towards Shadow. Now that my own main has a decent item level and more importantly a bit more Haste the pieces are falling together. Their trash DPS is still ... trash. :)


I can actually quest in Resto spec with Balance Affinity because Moonkin form and Starsurge means it doesn't take me 2 years to kill everything.

Why wouldn't you quest in Balance Spewc with Resto Affinity? If you are not keeping a team of at least two friends alive I don't see the need of leveling in a healing spec.

[Psyren]

Why wouldn't you quest in Balance Spewc with Resto Affinity? If you are not keeping a team of at least two friends alive I don't see the need of leveling in a healing spec.

Oh I will - once I have the Balance artifact.

(Which is a general complaint I have about the artifact system in general - one of the reasons I main hybrids is because I don't want to do just one job. But alternate specs get shafted a bit by this system, never mind alternate characters.)

[Spore]

I agree. But at least for me it has created some sort of engagement with my main character that I haven't had with an MMO character in a long time. I value my gear and experience with my Priest. The last time I had this was with a High Priest in Ragnarok Online whose Korean origins intensified the grinding. Just to get to High Priest status meant months of grinding monsters. It has been eased up since then.

Now I am not saying that the lore behind the artifacts is pleasant for my immersion but it forces people to advance with a single character rather than doing all the basic stuff with 11 characters (as I did on WoD, only to be bored after 1,5 months).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Boy am I feeling RNG in a way I never have before. This is the fist expansion where I'm actually preparing to raid in release, and the game has decided that what a Prot Pally gets in drops is crit, crit, and more crit. My worst stat. Wheeeeee.

I've literally been replacing 840-845 crit gear with 850 crit gear, and only have 7.5% haste and 9% versatility (my best stats) on anything above 825. Alas.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Boy am I feeling RNG in a way I never have before. This is the fist expansion where I'm actually preparing to raid in release, and the game has decided that what a Prot Pally gets in drops is crit, crit, and more crit. My worst stat. Wheeeeee.

I've literally been replacing 840-845 crit gear with 850 crit gear, and only have 7.5% haste and 9% versatility (my best stats) on anything above 825. Alas.

Unfortunately from the Q&A sessions Blizzard are convinced that RNG stats on gear are great for the game! Won't you feel super duper awesome when you finally get that drop with the stats you actually wanted? Players become sad when they can predictably map out their character's progression. Apparently.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Unfortunately from the Q&A sessions Blizzard are convinced that RNG stats on gear are great for the game! Won't you feel super duper awesome when you finally get that drop with the stats you actually wanted? Players become sad when they can predictably map out their character's progression. Apparently.

Wouldn't mind it so much if you could trade dungeon gear, but apparently that's something no one should be allowed to do if it's an iLvl increase. Who decided on that system I have no idea, but my Frost Death Knight buddy is swimming in Verse and Haste, and I have his Crit. We can't trade ever as it's always like a 5 level increase.

[The_Jackal]

Wouldn't mind it so much if you could trade dungeon gear, but apparently that's something no one should be allowed to do if it's an iLvl increase. Who decided on that system I have no idea, but my Frost Death Knight buddy is swimming in Verse and Haste, and I have his Crit. We can't trade ever as it's always like a 5 level increase.

It's because the personal loot system has a slightly higher drop rate than normal, so they don't want premade teams gaming personal loot to get itemized faster.

[Seerow]

It's because the personal loot system has a slightly higher drop rate than normal, so they don't want premade teams gaming personal loot to get itemized faster.

Yeah gearing up faster for premades is a big reason. The other side of it is in random groups, it doesn't feel good to be harassed to pass loot that is an upgrade for you to somebody else just because they might be able to make slightly better use of it. (and depending on the premade group, this applies even to some premades). The whole point of personal loot is when it drops, it's yours; but making it fully free tradeable would open up a lot of room for abuse and bad feelings. With the way it is, if an upgrade drops you can legitimately say "Nope, literally can't trade it sorry dude".

[The Glyphstone]

Weirdly, I've been seeing 'hey, I don't need this, anyone else want it'? in Mythic PUGs all the time.

[Psyren]

Now I am not saying that the lore behind the artifacts is pleasant for my immersion but it forces people to advance with a single character rather than doing all the basic stuff with 11 characters (as I did on WoD, only to be bored after 1,5 months).

Thing is though I actually want to do it on multiple specs, because each spec has its own storyline now. It's not like WoD where I'm a crappy commander of the same crappy garrison and liberating the Frostwolves every time regardless of class or race.

The very mechanic that makes me want to play alts is also making it harder :( They should just let me go get all 3/4 artifacts right away if I choose and then level the way I want to - it's not like the quests are all that artifact-specific once you've gotten it!

[Spore]

Thing is though I actually want to do it on multiple specs, because each spec has its own storyline now. It's not like WoD where I'm a crappy commander of the same crappy garrison and liberating the Frostwolves every time regardless of class or race.

The very mechanic that makes me want to play alts is also making it harder :( They should just let me go get all 3/4 artifacts right away if I choose and then level the way I want to - it's not like the quests are all that artifact-specific once you've gotten it!

So you're moping about the two hour wait between 100 and 102? Oh my. Yes, it is annoying to tell your friend that "No, healing now would be unwise because I haven't quested for the healing artifact yet" but other than that this is really a minor complaint.

Even skilling two or even three artifacts is not something that is that hard. My Priest has 14/15/15 now. Now if you want several toons with ALL of their specs skilled up you need more time. But then again, WHY are you doing this anyhow? If for the story, then a single spec suffices.

[Psyren]

So you're moping about the two hour wait between 100 and 102? Oh my. Yes, it is annoying to tell your friend that "No, healing now would be unwise because I haven't quested for the healing artifact yet" but other than that this is really a minor complaint.

Even skilling two or even three artifacts is not something that is that hard. My Priest has 14/15/15 now. Now if you want several toons with ALL of their specs skilled up you need more time. But then again, WHY are you doing this anyhow? If for the story, then a single spec suffices.

Chill out, I'm not "moping." I didn't realize that at 102 you could get all of the remaining ones instead of just one additional one. But since they're clearly okay with unlocking multiple secondary artifacts at once, they should just let you get them all at 100.

[Spore]

I didn't know you got offended by that. Sorry. Also considering your intricate knowledge of Pathfinder I thought you had known that.

[Tono]

If nothing else your class hall has some weapons you can buy and use until you hit 102.

[Psyren]

I didn't know you got offended by that. Sorry. Also considering your intricate knowledge of Pathfinder I thought you had known that.

I'm not offended either, though the attempts to divine/assume my mental state (rather than just asking me) are getting annoying :P

I also don't see what Pathfinder has to do with WoW? :smallconfused:


If nothing else your class hall has some weapons you can buy and use until you hit 102.

This I didn't know, I actually ended up using my Broken Shore intellect staff (I healed my way through that scenario since I didn't feel comfortable tanking it) to nab G'hanir and the Scythe.

Speaking of G'hanir, I noticed you actually get a Title for picking up this artifact. Do any of the others do this?

[Requizen]

Hunters don't get the title until after the main questline. I dunno about other classes.

I caved and bought the hidden skin for Titanstrike. The bow is pretty cool even if it is a bit goofy looking. Would really like Serpentbite, though.

BM PvP is super fun. Summon 10000 animals, always move never stop, Disengage and laugh.

[Antonok]

So has anyone managed a legendary yet? And if so, where'd you get it?

[Icewraith]

So has anyone managed a legendary yet? And if so, where'd you get it?

Nope.

I did score a nice BoE 850 Mail headpiece in a Mythic (note to self- remember to throw that up on the AH), but so far nothing orange from this expansion.

Strategy question- for people who need gear, should I try and run heroics or regs with them, or tell them to do world quests first? Option two seems like I'm being a bit lazy and selfish, but I'm pretty sure I've gotten a lot more gear from world quests than I have from Reg/Heroic dungeons at this point. I can try running a world quests group, which I'm sure many dps will appreciate for dealing with Wardens bosses, but because some people will have done some of the quests but not the others it seems like a huge exercise in herding cats.

Any idea what recommended and "minimum" item levels might be for raids tomorrow?

[Delusion]

Did some more class tiral testing. This time as the affliction warlock. And I surprisingly loved it. Didn't expect to, but then again I really like multidotting. Just bit afraid that the lack of AoE unless specced into it and the low mobility might get tiring in the long run.

I'd be thinking about balance druid but afraid that the new starfall might take away that multidotting feeling.

[The_Jackal]

Did some more class tiral testing. This time as the affliction warlock. And I surprisingly loved it. Didn't expect to, but then again I really like multidotting. Just bit afraid that the lack of AoE unless specced into it and the low mobility might get tiring in the long run.

I'd be thinking about balance druid but afraid that the new starfall might take away that multidotting feeling.

I really like affliction, and given my current deep misgivings about the state of my beloved frost mage (I now dub thee: tickle mage), I'm sorely tempted to make the switch (the main thing keeping from doing so is that you can't make a night elf warlock). As for the lack of mobility, the only real downside to running (so long as you keep your dots refreshed with pandemic) is that you'll lose out on some channeling time on Drain Life/Drain Soul, and thereby some more Unstable Affliction damage. But in large part, the benefit of being DoT based is that movement hurts you the least of all caster classes.

[Antonok]

(the main thing keeping from doing so is that you can't make a night elf warlock)

Why would you be a would be mana addict Night Elf when you can be 200lbs of sheer awesome in a 3ft gnome? :smallbiggrin:




Strategy question- for people who need gear, should I try and run heroics or regs with them, or tell them to do world quests first? Option two seems like I'm being a bit lazy and selfish, but I'm pretty sure I've gotten a lot more gear from world quests than I have from Reg/Heroic dungeons at this point. I can try running a world quests group, which I'm sure many dps will appreciate for dealing with Wardens bosses, but because some people will have done some of the quests but not the others it seems like a huge exercise in herding cats.

World quests is where I got most of my gear. Heroics are good but unless you have stupidly good luck, gearing thru upgrade procs takes a while.



Any idea what recommended and "minimum" item levels might be for raids tomorrow?

Usually normals are tuned for heroic gear, so I'd say 830ish for Normal; 840-845ish (mythic geared) for Heroic.

[Delusion]

I really like affliction, and given my current deep misgivings about the state of my beloved frost mage (I now dub thee: tickle mage), I'm sorely tempted to make the switch (the main thing keeping from doing so is that you can't make a night elf warlock). As for the lack of mobility, the only real downside to running (so long as you keep your dots refreshed with pandemic) is that you'll lose out on some channeling time on Drain Life/Drain Soul, and thereby some more Unstable Affliction damage. But in large part, the benefit of being DoT based is that movement hurts you the least of all caster classes.

Oh yeah that part of mobility was nice. I was just refering to how long it takes to jog from place A to place B.

[Legoshrimp]

So has anyone managed a legendary yet? And if so, where'd you get it?

I got one from the last nightfallen WQ crate.

It was the crit/haste ring. I am a fire mage so it isn't the best, but it isn't bad at least.

Raiding looks like it should be fun. It is going to be my first time raiding at launch.

Any idea how JC rings work? I have made a few, but I am not entirely sure what restrictions there are. Can you get a crit only roll on a crit ring? My guess is no, but I am not sure. Also JC is stupid you need level 700 to unlock the neck enchants :smallmad:.

[The_Jackal]

I got one from the last nightfallen WQ crate.

It was the crit/haste ring. I am a fire mage so it isn't the best, but it isn't bad at least.

Raiding looks like it should be fun. It is going to be my first time raiding at launch.

Any idea how JC rings work? I have made a few, but I am not entirely sure what restrictions there are. Can you get a crit only roll on a crit ring? My guess is no, but I am not sure. Also JC is stupid you need level 700 to unlock the neck enchants :smallmad:.

No matter how mediocre Legion crafting may be, it's a huge improvement on the suckwallow that was Warlords' crafting.


Oh yeah that part of mobility was nice. I was just refering to how long it takes to jog from place A to place B.

Did the Paladin or DK keep their bonus mounted speed? Otherwise, the Mage is the only real king of travel left.

[Delusion]

Did the Paladin or DK keep their bonus mounted speed? Otherwise, the Mage is the only real king of travel left.

Can't use mounts when indoors though. And my main is a demon hunter so I have been getting used to the awesomeness that is doublejump + glide.

[Spore]

IIt was the crit/haste ring. I am a fire mage so it isn't the best, but it isn't bad at least.

Aren't those Fire Mage's best stats though?


I'm not offended either, though the attempts to divine/assume my mental state (rather than just asking me) are getting annoying :P

I can't just ask any forum user about their mental state. Sometimes you gotta assume (Sense Motive yannow? :P).


I also don't see what Pathfinder has to do with WoW?

It is usual that people who inform themselves about one topic pretty well tend to inform themselves about most topics involving their person pretty well. But I guess my general assumption fails me here.

[Psyren]

I can't just ask any forum user about their mental state. Sometimes you gotta assume (Sense Motive yannow? :P).

Well you rolled a natural 1 here my friend.


It is usual that people who inform themselves about one topic pretty well tend to inform themselves about most topics involving their person pretty well. But I guess my general assumption fails me here.

Why yes, knowledge about a tabletop game that is based on static books/decade-old-rules and knowledge about a video game that can get (and indeed was) massively overhauled and crammed with brand new content in a single patch are totally comparable :smalltongue:


No matter how mediocre Legion crafting may be, it's a huge improvement on the suckwallow that was Warlords' crafting.

From the brief exposure I've had to it, I'm supremely glad I skipped WoD. Requisitions? Needing to put profession buildings in your Garrison, and they're mutually exclusive with other buildings you might want? Ugh.

Speaking of WoD, I had a question for those leveling alts through it - I've found myself doing Frostwolves -> Arakkoa every single time up to 98 when I can go do Broken Shore. Is there another quest route or indeed anything else one can do for the 90-100 sprint? I got a couple of alts to 100 using the Invasions and really wish those were still going on.



Did the Paladin or DK keep their bonus mounted speed? Otherwise, the Mage is the only real king of travel left.

Paladin still has it and I'm pretty sure it applies to their indoor mount too. You can also talent into getting two charges of it and (in tank spec at least, I forget about the other two) halving the cooldown.

[turbo164]

Speaking of WoD, I had a question for those leveling alts through it - I've found myself doing Frostwolves -> Arakkoa every single time up to 98 when I can go do Broken Shore. Is there another quest route or indeed anything else one can do for the 90-100 sprint? I got a couple of alts to 100 using the Invasions and really wish those were still going on.


A common strat was to do 99% of a bunch of bonus areas (the yellow outlines that give gold/xp; if they ask you to kill 8 hydras and break 20 eggs, just kill 8 and break 19) and gather all of the Gorgrond monster trophies (Biolante/Roardan etc) without turning them in yet.

Once everything's almost done, drink an xp-increase potion, then turn in all of the items and do the final kill/click in all of the bonus areas. Gain multiple levels in 15 minutes, after some prep of course.

I usually did intro quests -> Arak as well, though. Home Away From Home gives a little bonus xp, full questline gives a bodyguard (not that you'll need him in Legion), cool lore etc.

[Psyren]

The lore is indeed cool, just... not the 5th time through. And if WoD is this slow with looms I can't imagine the poor souls who have to do without, or who didn't shell out thousands of gold like I did to keep all their looms relevant to 100.

This is why I liked Wrath/Cata (and why I like Legion) - multiple choices of "starting area" help you mix things up on secondary playthroughs considerably. I'd even be happy with Pandaria's approach, where you have to start in Jade Forest, but leveling is so fast with looms that you're all done a handful of quests in.

Thanks for the tip though, I think I will try just hiking to a new area and doing bonus objectives next time.

[Delusion]

I absolutely love playing Demon Hunter but I realy wish Vengeful retreat + felblade combo was more reliable. If you press the felblade too early after VR the felblade will deal damage and I will get the fury from it but I will still get proprelled far away from the mob which causes me to waste the Momentum buff, but if I press it too late the VR might have taken me out of the felblade range and I will lose second or two. Its pretty annoying.

Also just spent and hour and twenty minutes setting up weak auras. Mostly because I hadn't used that addon as extensively before and its not the most intuitive addon to set up.

[Icewraith]

Raid firsts for the expansion last night:

First raid group.
First non-tank boss pull (surprisingly, not a hunter).
First healer DC mid-fight.
First sub-5% wipe.
First tunneling dps blows up most of the raid by not moving.
First Boss Kill (woohoo!).
First personal no loot from a raid boss (many more to come).
First gold from a bonus roll (also many more to come).
First wipe on trash.

It was all glorious.
Numbers were a bit concerning though. I know a couple cases people have given up on their previously preferred specs and are now trying to catch up their offspec artifacts (like my wife finally gave up on arcane and is now fire). I also know it's hard to put out good numbers when you die halfway through the fight because you haven't gotten used to watching for bugs yet. IIRC I was a lot lower on the damage and healing totem poles on our boss kill fight, where most people were alive until almost the very end. A lot of the early attempts I was third on heals, fourth on damage.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Man...we had an interesting Il'gynoth last night.

Close enough to a wipe that we just said "Screw it" on the last phase and all dived in, knowing we'd either burn it down with a second to spare, or inevitably wipe during the next outside phase.

Got it with about 2 seconds left on the clock. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

How does anyone manage to afford current-gen flasks right now? On my server, a Legion-grade flask goes from 2,500 to 4,000 apiece.

[Icewraith]

How does anyone manage to afford current-gen flasks right now? On my server, a Legion-grade flask goes from 2,500 to 4,000 apiece.

I don't think we do. Most of us just used last gen flasks/pots and our Alchemists got the dragon kill they needed to make Cauldrons for next week/possibly tomorrow.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

How does anyone manage to afford current-gen flasks right now? On my server, a Legion-grade flask goes from 2,500 to 4,000 apiece.

You don't. That's the strategy. I popped ONE, only because I needed extra health against Ursoc, since if his one-two goes off at the same time (as it sometimes does) that burst my whole health pool. :smalleek:

[The_Jackal]

You don't. That's the strategy. I popped ONE, only because I needed extra health against Ursoc, since if his one-two goes off at the same time (as it sometimes does) that burst my whole health pool. :smalleek:

If your guild hasn't gotten one or two crafters ready to supply guildies with flasks at something approaching cost, then you're not ready to raid. The guys selling flasks on the AH aren't guilded, they're goblins milking the market for what it will bear.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If your guild hasn't gotten one or two crafters ready to supply guildies with flasks at something approaching cost, then you're not ready to raid. The guys selling flasks on the AH aren't guilded, they're goblins milking the market for what it will bear.

I mean, we're basically a brand new guild, so...we haven't really: we have a FEW, but not enough to always have one going. It also hasn't been a huge problem yet.

[The_Jackal]

I mean, we're basically a brand new guild, so...we haven't really: we have a FEW, but not enough to always have one going. It also hasn't been a huge problem yet.

You also may not want to burn really expensive mats on flasks until you're sure you've got mechanics right. Flasking everyone is still only going to add something in the region of ~2% to total DPS, so if you're wiping before you've got the boss down to 5% health, keep your gold in your pockets.

[Antonok]

How does anyone manage to afford current-gen flasks right now? On my server, a Legion-grade flask goes from 2,500 to 4,000 apiece.

You don't basically. Good* news is the prices should drop when the Blood trader releases in 7.1 and we can start buying starlight rose instead of spending 20 hours to pick half a stack of them.

*Bad for me however as its making me bank at 1500g a flask

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You also may not want to burn really expensive mats on flasks until you're sure you've got mechanics right. Flasking everyone is still only going to add something in the region of ~2% to total DPS, so if you're wiping before you've got the boss down to 5% health, keep your gold in your pockets.

I mean...yeah. That's fairly obvious. :smalltongue:

[Icewraith]

You also may not want to burn really expensive mats on flasks until you're sure you've got mechanics right. Flasking everyone is still only going to add something in the region of ~2% to total DPS, so if you're wiping before you've got the boss down to 5% health, keep your gold in your pockets.

Flasking everyone makes more sense than using good food or expensive feasts or pre-potting (which don't persist through wipes), though. Also note that last expansion's augment runes - not the infinite use one, but the consumables - still work at 110 if you still have them or find a stack in your bank or on an alt.

Something that might help is the engineering feast from Reaves' Snack Distribution Module. That gives 225 versatility and costs all of five felslate to drop to feed the whole raid... unfortunately that's the more expensive ore, but still only five ore. If you're looking for a little bit more durability and throughput for your raid as people learn content, you can do worse than an extra versatility buff (such as no buff).

[Corvus]

On'y recently just hit 110. I was still 101 when some of my guild were already 110. I was also only in my third zone when I did it and am now still working through the early part of Suramar.

Been levelling as a bear druid. I have been bearing it up since very, very early vanilla, back when feral was non-viable for anything. Back then the only druid spec you were allowed to play in raids was resto - and then only if you have inervate which you had to use on one oft he true healers. Things have changed a lot since then.

Have been enjoying being able to pull packs of enemies when questing and (slowly) burning them down while not dying. Sure DPS may be able to kill them faster but being able to walk out at near full health is fun.

Unfortunately that may no longer be viable. The PTR is nerfing all tanks hard. There are some balance...problems... with DPS at the moment and tanks are being caught up in the crossfire of it. The DPS spread between top line (such as MM hunters, Ass/Outlaw Rouges) and bottom (Frost DKs) is way out of whack, to the point of doing double the DPS. The problem is that tanks seem to be out damaging the low end DPS (especially in AOE trash) but still falling well short of the top DPS. But instead of improving the bottom DPS they are nerfing all tanks - and not just their AOE DPs but their survivalbility too.

So now DPS are going to find it harder to PUG - tanks kind of had to carry poor DPS in dungeons but now who would want to tank after this kind of hit?

In other news I hit 800 fishing and was hoping t start the fishing artifact questing, only to find I have to have caught all the rare fish first. Think I have only caught four to date so it looks like a ling grind ahead.

[Psyren]

Have been enjoying being able to pull packs of enemies when questing and (slowly) burning them down while not dying. Sure DPS may be able to kill them faster but being able to walk out at near full health is fun.

Unfortunately that may no longer be viable. The PTR is nerfing all tanks hard. There are some balance...problems... with DPS at the moment and tanks are being caught up in the crossfire of it. The DPS spread between top line (such as MM hunters, Ass/Outlaw Rouges) and bottom (Frost DKs) is way out of whack, to the point of doing double the DPS. The problem is that tanks seem to be out damaging the low end DPS (especially in AOE trash) but still falling well short of the top DPS. But instead of improving the bottom DPS they are nerfing all tanks - and not just their AOE DPs but their survivalbility too.

So now DPS are going to find it harder to PUG - tanks kind of had to carry poor DPS in dungeons but now who would want to tank after this kind of hit?

As much as I love being in tank spec all the time though, you're talking about two vastly different things here (quest mobs vs. mythic/raid elites). I doubt the tanks battling the former while questing will really notice the difference to their clear time even if there does end up being a nerf. But conversely, I know that if I was a dps spec in a Mythic or raid and the tank was outdpsing me through no fault of my own I'd feel pretty upset/discouraged.

[Corvus]

As much as I love being in tank spec all the time though, you're talking about two vastly different things here (quest mobs vs. mythic/raid elites). I doubt the tanks battling the former while questing will really notice the difference to their clear time even if there does end up being a nerf. But conversely, I know that if I was a dps spec in a Mythic or raid and the tank was outdpsing me through no fault of my own I'd feel pretty upset/discouraged.

Tanks ST DPS wasn't great - it was on the aoe trash pulls that they were doing well and DPS complaining about that seems stupid. Tanks are meant to be hitting everything so that they keep aggro. Reduce the tanks DPS on trash packs and you'll see a lot more DPS pulling aggro. Bear tanks were struggling to keep aggro as it was and reducing their DPS without boosting threat generation (which is what is proposed) is only going to lead to more dead DPS.

The problem isn't with the tanks though - it is with the terrible balance for DPS specs at the moment. Currently some specs are doing near double the DPS of other specs despite being the same ilvl. If they raised all specs to the same level then all would be out-dpsing tanks.

[Seerow]

So, this Suramar quest


Oh my god this is the worst quest I have ever done. I don't know who designed it, but they need to be banned from quest design for the rest of forever. It's labeled as a group quest in the middle of a single person quest line with nothing in the quest text itself to indicate that (so you don't know unless you notice the group icon in your log).

But even with a group, there is no fighting your way through this. The quest sends you deep into Suramar city, into an area jam packed with NPC Nightborne and Demons, mostly elites with 5-7mil HP and really high damage. There are enemies frikken everywhere that will undisguise you, and several of them have faster than normal warnings (to the point of basically being instant), so there's no dodging around them.

After dying my first 10 times trying to do it the sneaky way, I decided to wait until later in the evening when I'd have some friends on. So then last night I try again, this time with me in tank spec, and with a disc priest and frost mage backing me up. You'd think this would make it easy, just plow through the trash around the person you need to talk to, disguise up, walk up to them and talk to them.

Not so much. The area is so densely packed we weren't able to pull a reasonable number of mobs. I think the smallest pull I saw was 10. Which was still enough to overwhelm and kill us. After a half dozen failed attempts, I wound up going with the method of corpse running and rezzing as close as I could to the guy I needed to talk to... only to find out that guy will also aggro if you are not disguised, so you need to be far enough away to not aggro, but also close enough you're not getting hit by the detectors who will break your disguise who are usually sitting just a dozen yards away from the person you need to talk to.

I finally completed it after some more experimenting and corpse running. All told, the single quest took me about 1.5-2 hours of time investment, around 30 deaths, and my reward? 30 gold. Didn't even get a meaningful amount of reputation from it. And this is after paying the mercenary NPC ******* 1200 mana for the privilege of unlocking this ****ty quest.

rant over

[ryuplaneswalker]

How does anyone manage to afford current-gen flasks right now? On my server, a Legion-grade flask goes from 2,500 to 4,000 apiece.


Hey remember when I said that Legion professions were going to be horrible? Who knew that requiring max level to make anything of use would end up making things stupidly expensive. Go look at the Potion Prices.

Or the freaking Neck Enchants, 20K for 2% extra damage. TOTALLY GREAT GUYS so much better than WOD.

[Seerow]

Hey remember when I said that Legion professions were going to be horrible? Who knew that requiring max level to make anything of use would end up making things stupidly expensive. Go look at the Potion Prices.

Or the freaking Neck Enchants, 20K for 2% extra damage. TOTALLY GREAT GUYS so much better than WOD.

Honestly I blame ridiculous prices on the gold inflation from WoD as much as anything. When most of the hardcore crowd is sitting on well over a million from milking Garrisons for a year or two, they're willing to pay whatever to get their raid supplies. Crafters charging whatever people are willing to pay is just the nature of the beast.


Plus the profession overhauls are great... for the people actually working their professions. The intent was to make professions more engaging and profitable, I'd argue they seem to have succeeded there.

[Abemad]

So, this Suramar quest


Oh my god this is the worst quest I have ever done. I don't know who designed it, but they need to be banned from quest design for the rest of forever. It's labeled as a group quest in the middle of a single person quest line with nothing in the quest text itself to indicate that (so you don't know unless you notice the group icon in your log).

But even with a group, there is no fighting your way through this. The quest sends you deep into Suramar city, into an area jam packed with NPC Nightborne and Demons, mostly elites with 5-7mil HP and really high damage. There are enemies frikken everywhere that will undisguise you, and several of them have faster than normal warnings (to the point of basically being instant), so there's no dodging around them.

After dying my first 10 times trying to do it the sneaky way, I decided to wait until later in the evening when I'd have some friends on. So then last night I try again, this time with me in tank spec, and with a disc priest and frost mage backing me up. You'd think this would make it easy, just plow through the trash around the person you need to talk to, disguise up, walk up to them and talk to them.

Not so much. The area is so densely packed we weren't able to pull a reasonable number of mobs. I think the smallest pull I saw was 10. Which was still enough to overwhelm and kill us. After a half dozen failed attempts, I wound up going with the method of corpse running and rezzing as close as I could to the guy I needed to talk to... only to find out that guy will also aggro if you are not disguised, so you need to be far enough away to not aggro, but also close enough you're not getting hit by the detectors who will break your disguise who are usually sitting just a dozen yards away from the person you need to talk to.

I finally completed it after some more experimenting and corpse running. All told, the single quest took me about 1.5-2 hours of time investment, around 30 deaths, and my reward? 30 gold. Didn't even get a meaningful amount of reputation from it. And this is after paying the mercenary NPC ******* 1200 mana for the privilege of unlocking this ****ty quest.

rant over

You should really try the leatherworking quest i Stormheim, where they have you following a reindeer across mountains, down waterfalls and through mobs - while staying mounted... dumbest quest ever. Unless you're a panda/rogue you'll die trying to get down the waterfall...

[Requizen]

I honestly am waiting to level Inscription til after 7.1 because it's much more lucrative to just sell the Herbs instead of milling them. And the proc rate for Sallow Pigment is just so ****ing low it's not even funny, and then you need like 10 of them per recipe until you level up those recipes. Just stupid.

[Psyren]

Reduce the tanks DPS on trash packs and you'll see a lot more DPS pulling aggro.

These are two different levers though; it's not difficult to keep tank threat static while reducing their damage output, simply increase the threat they generate per each point of damage in equal proportion to the loss of said damage.

Whether Blizzard will actually catch on and DO that is of course another story.



The problem isn't with the tanks though - it is with the terrible balance for DPS specs at the moment. Currently some specs are doing near double the DPS of other specs despite being the same ilvl. If they raised all specs to the same level then all would be out-dpsing tanks.

Agreed, so to me the endstate is clear - all dps should be capable of outdpsing tanks, or at least of being on par in AoE situations for those specs that are weaker at AOE. If not in Normal or Heroic 5-mans, then definitely in Mythics, Raids, and Mythic+.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So, this Suramar quest


Oh my god this is the worst quest I have ever done. I don't know who designed it, but they need to be banned from quest design for the rest of forever. It's labeled as a group quest in the middle of a single person quest line with nothing in the quest text itself to indicate that (so you don't know unless you notice the group icon in your log).

But even with a group, there is no fighting your way through this. The quest sends you deep into Suramar city, into an area jam packed with NPC Nightborne and Demons, mostly elites with 5-7mil HP and really high damage. There are enemies frikken everywhere that will undisguise you, and several of them have faster than normal warnings (to the point of basically being instant), so there's no dodging around them.

After dying my first 10 times trying to do it the sneaky way, I decided to wait until later in the evening when I'd have some friends on. So then last night I try again, this time with me in tank spec, and with a disc priest and frost mage backing me up. You'd think this would make it easy, just plow through the trash around the person you need to talk to, disguise up, walk up to them and talk to them.

Not so much. The area is so densely packed we weren't able to pull a reasonable number of mobs. I think the smallest pull I saw was 10. Which was still enough to overwhelm and kill us. After a half dozen failed attempts, I wound up going with the method of corpse running and rezzing as close as I could to the guy I needed to talk to... only to find out that guy will also aggro if you are not disguised, so you need to be far enough away to not aggro, but also close enough you're not getting hit by the detectors who will break your disguise who are usually sitting just a dozen yards away from the person you need to talk to.

I finally completed it after some more experimenting and corpse running. All told, the single quest took me about 1.5-2 hours of time investment, around 30 deaths, and my reward? 30 gold. Didn't even get a meaningful amount of reputation from it. And this is after paying the mercenary NPC ******* 1200 mana for the privilege of unlocking this ****ty quest.

rant over

I do feel a lot of sympathy for any non-Paladin on this quest: I found I had enough self-healing to just fight anything I grabbed and made it through just fine, but I suspect that, unless you're a Demon Hunter, no one else could do quite the same thing. It really IS a poorly designed area.

[The Glyphstone]

I had no trouble there, thanks to careful and judicious use of Hexing mobs who could break my disguise. A CCed enemy loses their Truesight, and CC can be applied without entering combat. For the handful of characters who lack ranged CC, though, i imagine it's miserable.

[Requizen]

It's fine as a Hunter, Feign Death only has a 30 second CD :P

[Seerow]

I had no trouble there, thanks to careful and judicious use of Hexing mobs who could break my disguise. A CCed enemy loses their Truesight, and CC can be applied without entering combat. For the handful of characters who lack ranged CC, though, i imagine it's miserable.

If CC doesn't break disguise, yeah I can see how that would make the quest much easier. Doesn't help doing it as a Warrior (or probably most other melee sans rogue), but means I probably could have tag teamed with the frost mage and made it through easier than what I wound up doing.

[The_Jackal]

It's fine as a Hunter, Feign Death only has a 30 second CD :P

The warrior has a zero-cooldown ability, called 'actual death', but it has expensive reagent costs and a protracted animation. I'm stalled on "Rumor Has It" as well, and I'm with Djinn on this one: The guy who came up with this quest/area should be horsewhipped.

[Seerow]

The warrior has a zero-cooldown ability, called 'actual death', but it has expensive reagent costs and a protracted animation. I'm stalled on "Rumor Has It" as well, and I'm with Djinn on this one: The guy who came up with this quest/area should be horsewhipped.

That was something I forgot to mention in my rant post: No graveyard on that side of the city. So every time you die, you've got a 2-5 minute run back. Because Suramar City doesn't allow for running in straight lines, you have to run up and down stairs, crossing back and forth to find your way back to your body. Then towards the end of it, I had a rez timer even with that long run back. That's why 30 deaths caused 2 hours or so of time wasted.

It's really sad because it had potential to be a great quest. Just slightly better stealth mechanics would have made the quest really enjoyable. But instead it is... well what it is.

[The Glyphstone]

There's also the parajumping option, for people who can't CC. Go up to the Twilight Vineyards region, then Glider off the top to your destination. It lets you skip about 90% of the intervening trash, possibly 100% if you land right.

[Seerow]

There's also the parajumping option, for people who can't CC. Go up to the Twilight Vineyards region, then Glider off the top to your destination. It lets you skip about 90% of the intervening trash, possibly 100% if you land right.

That was actually how I started. It doesn't help much because a lot of the detectors are right there next to the NPCs you need to talk to. Literally within a dozen yards. So if you don't land literally on top of the person, usually you're getting caught, and then you either run back and get caught in the cycle of inching closer and dying again; or you take the rez sickness penalty, hearth back to portal room, take portal to vinyards, and try parajumping again. Either way no good options.

[turbo164]

I assume no conveniently placed baskets in the area either?

[The Glyphstone]

That was actually how I started. It doesn't help much because a lot of the detectors are right there next to the NPCs you need to talk to. Literally within a dozen yards. So if you don't land literally on top of the person, usually you're getting caught, and then you either run back and get caught in the cycle of inching closer and dying again; or you take the rez sickness penalty, hearth back to portal room, take portal to vinyards, and try parajumping again. Either way no good options.

Why would you need to die more than once? You just have to land relatively near the target, then sprint past them into the bushes behind the terrace. Even if the NPCs chase you in and kill you (they usually won't, the elves have pathing issues and don't like going into the terraced garden plots or underwater), you make one arduous spirit walk to rez out of sight in the plants, then disguise and walk up to the NPC. Getting out again is one Stonehide Leather Barding (support your friendly neighborhood Leatherworker today!) and a frantic charge to the harbor, see aforementioned dislike of chasing you underwater.

The frustration's understandable, but I think even Warrior's got enough of a toolkit to avoid dying more than once in that segment. It's still somewhat bad design, you shouldn't have be guaranteeing a death as part of a fetch quest, but it's not 'designer death by rusty spork' bad.

[Psyren]

So I nabbed Truthguard on my Prot Paladin. And that has to be the most boring artifact quest I've done yet. Go here, click graves, beat up some skeletons until you find the right one, he sends you to some supposedly-epic-but-not-really trial dungeon that he failed to complete, and which I thought would test my limits. But no, it has exactly two challenges - stand in front of the door and pop a cooldown, then go inside and fight a melee boss with caster cohort that you could have probably soloed, but they give you two ineffectual companions anyway. Done, enjoy your artifact, now get out.

Like, did the Ashbringer and Tyr's Hand (neither of which I've gone after yet) use up all of the budgeted awesome, and there was none left over for the protdins?

[Delusion]

Did I tell you yet how much I love the ability to do class trials?

Tried MM hunter, but didn't like how the spec plays at all. Which is a shame, because the hidden appearance of the MM artefact is IMO the best looking artefact skin in the game. But hey at least that cuts down what I will boost to just either Affli lock or Resto druid. And then if I choose Affli lock I will need to choose wether to roll human or Belf. Belf because I'd like to see the horde side of the story and belfs are prettier. Human because most of my friends play alliance and all my other characters are alliance.

[Antonok]

So raid numbers for Emerald Nightmare are in (for the most part). And holy crap there is some serious balancing needing to be done.

Tank wise they're all pretty much on par with each other outside Prot Warriors who are stupidly overtuned, though everyone but Blizzard knew that.

DPS wise is where the numbers make you go huh?. Just to give you an idea, frost mage is at the bottom of the heroic numbers sitting at just under 200k DPS. Arms warrior sitting at the top, is hitting around 350k DPS.

Healers seem to be the most balanced between the roles. The numbers from them are more or less even (only an overall 30k HPS difference between top and bottom).

So if Blizzard keeps their word, be expecting a rather large balance pass this Tuesday.

[Requizen]

I wouldn't expect it that fast. 7.1 probably isn't too far off, I'm expecting them to wait for more than a single raid lockout before making sweeping changes. Maybe we'll see some flat number bumps for the gutter specs, but nothing really massive.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Tank wise they're all pretty much on par with each other outside Prot Warriors who are stupidly overtuned, though everyone but Blizzard knew that.

As a Paladin who recently ate a very noticeable nerf to my self-healing, this frustrates me no end to see. :smallmad:

[The Glyphstone]

Has anyone done numbers passes to determine the DPS thresholds for Normal/heroic EN yet? Ilyg'noth is the DPS Check boss of the raid, and I'm curious what the minimum DPS-per-person figure is to beat his berserk.

[Antonok]

I wouldn't expect it that fast. 7.1 probably isn't too far off, I'm expecting them to wait for more than a single raid lockout before making sweeping changes. Maybe we'll see some flat number bumps for the gutter specs, but nothing really massive.

hey look! Tuning pass coming Tuesday (http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749305579) :smalltongue:

RIP Arms and Havoc. Rejoice all ye locks, frost mages, and frost DKs.

Fury Warriors, you may continue to sob silently in the corner. may anxiously await the changes as they seem to have been lost in transition somewhere, :smallsigh: but you did get changed.

Ok Fury got buffed, not by a whole lot, and no changes to your survivability.

[The_Jackal]

hey look! Tuning pass coming Tuesday (http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749305579) :smalltongue:

RIP Arms and Havoc. Rejoice all ye locks, frost mages, and frost DKs.

Fury Warriors, you may continue to sob silently in the corner. may anxiously await the changes as they seem to have been lost in transition somewhere, :smallsigh: but you did get changed.

Ok Fury got buffed, not by a whole lot, and no changes to your survivability.

I'm sorry to see the change to exploit the weakness. Focused Rage was the broken talent, it was WAYYYYYY ahead of everything else.

[Seerow]

I'm sorry to see the change to exploit the weakness. Focused Rage was the broken talent, it was WAYYYYYY ahead of everything else.

ETW was way overpowered. To the point where Arms warriors were taking an ETW relic that was 15+ ilvls lower and considering it an upgrade. Nerfing it was pretty necessary.


I'm actually disappointed in the FR nerf. Yes, FR Arms is OP, and FR is way ahead of the other talent options on that row, but I'd rather see it nerfed in another way. Increase the rage cost of FR by 33% instead of nerfing the damage of FR by 25%. Same net DPS change give or take, but leaves the huge crits in tact. If it's a PVP issue, they can nerf separately for PVP now. But if I'm playing Arms I want to see absurd damage crits, I don't care if they tune it so the setup necessary to pull it off is much longer or less frequent.

[Icewraith]

They nerfed protection's rage generation instead of trying to balance ignore pain? 90% damage reduction is stupid even if it feels great to play.

Shield block is basically now twice as expensive. Great.

[Delusion]

They said that they'd likely nerf Havoc Aoe by nerfing Fel Barrage. Then they nerf almost every other AoE ability, but not fel barrage.

[ryuplaneswalker]

So I nabbed Truthguard on my Prot Paladin. And that has to be the most boring artifact quest I've done yet. Go here, click graves, beat up some skeletons until you find the right one, he sends you to some supposedly-epic-but-not-really trial dungeon that he failed to complete, and which I thought would test my limits. But no, it has exactly two challenges - stand in front of the door and pop a cooldown, then go inside and fight a melee boss with caster cohort that you could have probably soloed, but they give you two ineffectual companions anyway. Done, enjoy your artifact, now get out.

Like, did the Ashbringer and Tyr's Hand (neither of which I've gone after yet) use up all of the budgeted awesome, and there was none left over for the protdins?

Pretty much yes. most classes gets 1 or at best 2 really cool plots and scenarios for an artifact. The rest get copy pasted stuff. That is why I hate the entire concept of Artifacts. Rets get one of the most Iconic Swords in the game. Prot gets RandomMcRandom. It is incredibly obvious which ones the spent time on and which ones not, especially as you gain artifact Knowledge. Of course even as sort of cool as The Silver Hand's plot was. I wish it had not outright crapped on Human Paladin lore.


Honestly I blame ridiculous prices on the gold inflation from WoD as much as anything. When most of the hardcore crowd is sitting on well over a million from milking Garrisons for a year or two, they're willing to pay whatever to get their raid supplies. Crafters charging whatever people are willing to pay is just the nature of the beast.

HAHAHA "Hardcore crowds" don't get money from garrisons they got money from selling Heroic/Mythic runs, and even for the not "Super hardcore" guess what? Garrisons were not the best way to make money. Facerolling Cata dungeons was.


Plus the profession overhauls are great... for the people actually working their professions. The intent was to make professions more engaging and profitable, I'd argue they seem to have succeeded there.

Not really, they aren't that engaging. (grind to 110 on every character!) and they don't make that much money outside of gathering professions due to the insane requirements to actually craft anything. Jewlcrafting actually LOSES money on leveling to max which is required to craft the super epic gems. I just prospected an entire stack of Felslate and got -one- relevant gem from it. ONE high level gem from an entire 200 stack of Felslate.

Edit : OH and just to add into the "Greatness" Of professions they are the only non surumar content that has level requirements to do because making your leveling zones scalable and then making your professions require arbitrary (and yes Levels in Legion are 100% arbitrary) level grinding is consistent with how you designed everything else.

[The_Jackal]

Edit : OH and just to add into the "Greatness" Of professions they are the only non surumar content that has level requirements to do because making your leveling zones scalable and then making your professions require arbitrary (and yes Levels in Legion are 100% arbitrary) level grinding is consistent with how you designed everything else.

I agree with most of your post, but IMO, requiring reaching max level to get the best professions results is a good thing. Of course, leveling your profession to max should be a gold sink, that's what we call a barrier to entry. Now the big problem with JC (and to a lesser extent, inscription) is that they removed glyphs and sockets, for the most part, so they've gone from being a commodity that has sustained demand to a niche product that barely anyone bothers with.

I don't think Professions are anywhere close to perfect in Legion, but they're in a better place than they were. You're rewarded for crafting with more efficient recipes, which will get you the opportunity to make some real money.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I agree with most of your post, but IMO, requiring reaching max level to get the best professions results is a good thing. Of course, leveling your profession to max should be a gold sink, that's what we call a barrier to entry. Now the big problem with JC (and to a lesser extent, inscription) is that they removed glyphs and sockets, for the most part, so they've gone from being a commodity that has sustained demand to a niche product that barely anyone bothers with.

I don't think Professions are anywhere close to perfect in Legion, but they're in a better place than they were. You're rewarded for crafting with more efficient recipes, which will get you the opportunity to make some real money.

No you aren't rewarded with crafting with more efficient recipes. The more efficient stuff for the stuff that actually matters comes from Rep and Boss Drops, and requiring max level is not a good good thing all it does is drive up prices arbitrarily, and they have not removed glyphs.

[otakuryoga]

i believe he menat they removed glyphs that actually do anything

its only cosmetic crap now

[Psyren]

hey look! Tuning pass coming Tuesday (http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749305579) :smalltongue:


Elemental buffs, hell yes!!!

[Antonok]

So in my quest to get a legendary, RNG decided to see fit to give me something else I wanted out of the Nightfallen cache today.

In a few days time I will be the owner of the Reins of the Llothien Prowler (http://www.wowhead.com/item=137573/reins-of-the-llothien-prowler).

[Corvus]

The size of some of those buffs is staggering. I can't recall any so large or so many anytime recently. It makes you wonder just what went wrong in first alpha testing and then in beta when players were pointing out the problems in those specs that nothing got done about it until now.

It does beg the question why the tank nerfs are now necessary as it was those specs the tanks were beating on aoe trash mobs...

[TechnOkami]

If I had known how you can pay for WoW time with gold I would have been playing Legion since the beginning. Hell, I would have been playing WoW since they implemented that mechanic!

I'm really, really tempted to get all the content for the game I don't have plus a 1 month sub so I can essentially play the rest of the game for mostly free.

I need to see how much this all costs...

Note: I have the main game, Cata, and WotLK, I don't have Draenor or Pandaria, or Legion.

This changes everything... oh my god this changes everything... I'm so excited I can play WoW now. :D

[Antonok]

If I had known how you can pay for WoW time with gold I would have been playing Legion since the beginning. Hell, I would have been playing WoW since they implemented that mechanic!

I'm really, really tempted to get all the content for the game I don't have plus a 1 month sub so I can essentially play the rest of the game for mostly free.

I need to see how much this all costs...

Note: I have the main game, Cata, and WotLK, I don't have Draenor or Pandaria, or Legion.

This changes everything... oh my god this changes everything... I'm so excited I can play WoW now. :D

The base game now includes Pandaria and Warlords so you only need to get Legion. Blizzard has started rolling old xpacs into the base game when a new one launches, so 20 bucks gets you everything but current content.

[TechnOkami]

The base game now includes Pandaria and Warlords so you only need to get Legion. Blizzard has started rolling old xpacs into the base game when a new one launches, so 20 bucks gets you everything but current content.

Yeah I just found out about this.

*flails in excitement*

[Antonok]

Yeah I just found out about this.

*flails in excitement*

Then I should point out that you can buy a game time token from the char select screen if you have enough gold on one char. No need to buy game time. Or, if you don't, open a live support ticket and ask if you can have a few days time added so you can get a token. They're pretty cool about it. Done it a few times in the past (last being a month before Legion so I know they still do).

[Corvus]

I haven't paid a subscription fee in a year now - and between my alts I have 500-600K saved up, so it'll be a while before I have to. I didn't play the garrison-gold-pinata so I'll never be able to afford those super expensive vanity items but that means I don't have any other use for gold but for the game tokens.

[Antonok]

So the nerfs Arms, SPriest, and Havoc are getting tomorrow (https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/20252902/hotfixes-september-23) are a little less severe than previously announced. They actually reviewed what was being said and changed a few of them.

[The_Jackal]

So the nerfs Arms, SPriest, and Havoc are getting tomorrow (https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/20252902/hotfixes-september-23) are a little less severe than previously announced. They actually reviewed what was being said and changed a few of them.

PERFECT. I'm really glad they're not gutting 'Exploit the Weakness'. Getting more frequent Tactician procs is one of the most visceral and satisfying ways you'll get really feel your progression, apart from just having numbers get bigger.

[Delusion]

So the nerfs Arms, SPriest, and Havoc are getting tomorrow (https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/20252902/hotfixes-september-23) are a little less severe than previously announced. They actually reviewed what was being said and changed a few of them.

So Bloodlet gets nerfed by 25% instead of 66%. Thats actually reasonable. Still bit weird that the cleave talent is the best single target talent in the row, but I don't mind because its really fluid talent with MotG.

Also did first dungeons as Havoc. Really really fun, but also really hectic.

[TechnOkami]

Question: I like DoT. I REALLY like DoT.

As far as I know, Affliction Warlocks and Shadow Priests are the DoT specs of WoW.

Is one particularly better over the other?

[Requizen]

Question: I like DoT. I REALLY like DoT.

As far as I know, Affliction Warlocks and Shadow Priests are the DoT specs of WoW.

Is one particularly better over the other?

As of currently, Shadow is much better than Affliction on a numbers basis, but a patch just went out (or is going out) that is buffing Afflic and nerfing Shadow.

Also, there are some DoT melee classes. I think it's Assassination for Rogues and Unholy for DKs, though I don't know how prominently DoTs appear in their rotations currently.

[The_Jackal]

As of currently, Shadow is much better than Affliction on a numbers basis, but a patch just went out (or is going out) that is buffing Afflic and nerfing Shadow.

Also, there are some DoT melee classes. I think it's Assassination for Rogues and Unholy for DKs, though I don't know how prominently DoTs appear in their rotations currently.

If I were you, I'd go affliction. Shadow priest is great DPS, but has a limited toolkit for solo play, whereas warlocks get pets, which make solo play a lot less fraught.

[Ionbound]

So...I'm getting into WoW again as a Draeni resto-Shaman. Anyone have suggestions on how to make levelling less...Cancer?

[Requizen]

Figure out what you enjoy doing and do that. You can level in a variety of ways - the quickest way to level is to get heirlooms and quest while queuing for dungeons. As a healer, your dungeon queues should pop near instantly and you can make sure the group doesn't die as long as you're paying attention.

On the other hand, there's plenty of ways to level. If you like questing, it's quick enough. If you like PvP, you can level that way (though it's a bit slow comparatively).

[Delusion]

You also get a level 100 boost if you buy legion.


Question: I like DoT. I REALLY like DoT.

As far as I know, Affliction Warlocks and Shadow Priests are the DoT specs of WoW.

Is one particularly better over the other?

From reading around different forums: Shadow Priest are stronger on raids at least. However unless you are doing super hardcore content both should be okay.

On the other hand Shadow Priests have only 2 DoTs now AFAIK and are more about correct usage of Voidform while Affliction is all about DoTs. (I am probably going to use my lvl 100 boost on Aflliction at somepoint at least when I figure if I want horde alt or not).

[TechnOkami]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

DoT is often good at non-grouped multi-target, and at fights with high levels of forced mobility, since they can keep damage going even when not actively casting.

Basically, both get the job done. :smallbiggrin:

[Requizen]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

For dungeons/raids, it often doesn't matter since dps is dps. However, there's pluses and minuses to both. DoT classes have a bit more trouble switching targets, but are better when they have to move, since something like Arcane has to stand still and cast for the most part while DoTs keep ticking while you run around.

For PvP, it depends. In BGs, where it's hectic and you get 1v1s or picks, DoTs are great. In certain Arena comps, DoTs can work really well too, though others prefer spike damage to blast through healing. If you like BGs, Affliction is hilarious since you just throw down DoTs and run away while you get healed and things die.

[TechnOkami]

Ao pick what's fun, got it. :smalltongue:

Thanks Djinn.

Also, not that I'll ever get to play with you guys because of the dichotomy of our respective gaming hours, but what realm are you, Jackson, and TFT all playing on again?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Ao pick what's fun, got it. :smalltongue:

Thanks Djinn.

Also, not that I'll ever get to play with you guys because of the dichotomy of our respective gaming hours, but what realm are you, Jackson, and TFT all playing on again?

Sargeras. :smallbiggrin:

[The_Jackal]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

Apart from stylistic preferences, the only answer I think can rationally answer is fights with multiple long-lived targets. A skilled DOT player who can maintain DOT stacks on 2-3 targets will shine in fights where you've got a couple of targets which, for mechanical reasons, can't be grouped together for easy cleave. So, fights like Twin Emperors in AQ, or Twin Ogron in Highmaul, or Four Horsemen in Naxx.

[Icewraith]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

When it comes to raiding in general, no. There'll usually be a fight where classes with strong AOE shine, and a fight with dangerous adds that need to be burned down quickly, and a fight with longer lived adds or multiple bosses that DoT classes can do the multidot thing on. In a given fight, yes, there will be more or less advantageous classes.

Edit: Any word on how bad the Protection Warrior Rage nerf is working out in practice? I'm worried.

[Ionbound]

Is SP worth playing? The artifact looks really cool but if everyone just yells at me to go holy, then...I don't want to have to deal with that.

[Icewraith]

Is SP worth playing? The artifact looks really cool but if everyone just yells at me to go holy, then...I don't want to have to deal with that.

Do you mean Disc? SP and Holy aren't exactly in the same line of work.

Regarding Disc, I healed a 5-man on an alt for the first time in the new disc and it went fine. Not exactly endgame relevant if that's what you're asking about, but it's usable in 5 man content and is almost as durable as a tank spec while questing. It kills things slower, unfortunately, and the only real form of AoE you get is from talents and multi-dotting SW:P, but like I said- durable.

[Ionbound]

No I mean SP. I have been lead (possibly erroneously) that when priest shows up in the DPS slot people are less than happy.

[Requizen]

No I mean SP. I have been lead (possibly erroneously) that when priest shows up in the DPS slot people are less than happy.

Not for like 4 expansions.

[GungHo]

No I mean SP. I have been lead (possibly erroneously) that when priest shows up in the DPS slot people are less than happy.

There are some people that will never be happy no matter what you do. Just do what's fun for you.

[Psyren]

Not for like 4 expansions.

This, and especially not now.


There are some people that will never be happy no matter what you do. Just do what's fun for you.

Definitely this.


Do you mean Disc? SP and Holy aren't exactly in the same line of work.

Regarding Disc, I healed a 5-man on an alt for the first time in the new disc and it went fine. Not exactly endgame relevant if that's what you're asking about, but it's usable in 5 man content and is almost as durable as a tank spec while questing. It kills things slower, unfortunately, and the only real form of AoE you get is from talents and multi-dotting SW:P, but like I said- durable.

The difficulty with Disc isn't really its healing output, rather it's how proactive you have to be now. You have to know the fight in advance and when the damage spikes are coming so that you can bubble/suppress the tank.

I can see it being viable once people know the fights. It's not a spec that's for the faint of heart and definitely not one that is conducive to learning content, because it has so little ability to react compared to Holy. But once people start learning content (and breaking even with or overgearing it) a Disc healer's output is going to be valuable.

[Icewraith]

So, Prot Warrior Rage nerf fears mostly confirmed. I'm driving the same car, but now it feels perpetually out of gas.

There were a few scary moments where I was at 25% HP, all my cooldowns blown, the boss is still meleeing me regularly, and I just can't get enough rage to throw up an Ignore Pain, Shield Slam won't reset, when it finally comes off cooldown it doesn't crit and I have to burn the rage it generates just to keep shield block up... I felt like I had to apologize to my healers. Of course when I finally can throw up IP, it's at the minimum rage level and doesn't last very long at all.

Also, my AOE threat is crap compared to our DH tank, which is not something I'm used to at all. This kind of feels like the bad old days in BC when I was learning to tank.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So, Prot Warrior Rage nerf fears mostly confirmed. I'm driving the same car, but now it feels perpetually out of gas.

And yet it's still the top performing tank at every skill level and every difficulty for Emerald Nightmare. (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#metric=ehrps&dataset=100)

It's almost like they nerfed it in the worst possible way: giving you less control over your own Rage generation while still keeping the insanity that is Ignore Pain and it's ability to pool and stack hugely, and generate Rage off premitigation damage.

[The Glyphstone]

And yet it's still the top performing tank at every skill level and every difficulty for Emerald Nightmare. (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#metric=ehrps&dataset=100)

It's almost like they nerfed it in the worst possible way: giving you less control over your own Rage generation while still keeping the insanity that is Ignore Pain and it's ability to pool and stack hugely, and generate Rage off premitigation damage.

Didn't the nerfs go in yesterday? That's not nearly enough data to form a reliable sample pool to see how it performs compared to pre-nerf.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Didn't the nerfs go in yesterday? That's not nearly enough data to form a reliable sample pool to see how it performs compared to pre-nerf.

Was it today? I thought it was yesterday -- before last-night's Raid information. That's still over 9,000 warrior samples on Normal difficulty alone, and 6k samples for any non-Monk tank.

[Psyren]

Was it today? I thought it was yesterday -- before last-night's Raid information. That's still over 9,000 warrior samples on Normal difficulty alone, and 6k samples for any non-Monk tank.

Poor Monks. But I dropped mine, they're a nightmare to heal and I keep feeling like I'm letting people down.

[The Glyphstone]

I guess, but I'd still prefer to be balancing equal data samples. 36,000 warrior samples were logged in the last week, with 26-30,000 each of the other non-Monk tanks. Since yesterday, 9,000 warriors and 6000-7000 of each non-Warrior non-Monks were logged, roughly 25% as many. And while I'm uncertain how the scoring is determined, Warriors appear to have gotten better despite this 'nerf' (92-93 over a week, 100 over a day), possible due to that lower sample size.

[Icewraith]

I guess, but I'd still prefer to be balancing equal data samples. 36,000 warrior samples were logged in the last week, with 26-30,000 each of the other non-Monk tanks. Since yesterday, 9,000 warriors and 6000-7000 of each non-Warrior non-Monks were logged, roughly 25% as many. And while I'm uncertain how the scoring is determined, Warriors appear to have gotten better despite this 'nerf' (92-93 over a week, 100 over a day), possible due to that lower sample size.

Well people also came into this week with whatever raid gear they got last week.

Edit: Also, the harder Warriors are getting hit, the less the rage nerfs matter. The biggest effect this has is in 5-man and open world questing, and on the initial pull.

The problems are RFDT and Ignore Pain. The nerfs were to Vengeance (which does hurt our efficiency with Rage) and our rotation-based Rage generation. People probably stopped using Focused Rage unless they were at very high levels of rage and just used free crit procs otherwise.

So, the nerfs were done in the worst possible way- hits the wrong people disproportionately (people doing non-raid content or of lower skill are affected the most), doesn't solve most of the problem it was intended to address (Prot is apparently still OP), and still screws up the feel of the class.

Also note I didn't say I died a bunch, I just had a number of hairy moments. However, because Rage was more scarce I was also paying a lot more attention to my rage usage and making sure I didn't waste a single IP or Vengeance proc. Probably the biggest difference this week is that I was a lot lower on the damage meter than I was last week, rank-wise. I don't remember what the healing meters looked like. I used Focused Rage less, so I didn't have as much damage, and people mostly got buffed.

Double Edit:

Also, I got to the Statecraft questline everyone was complaining about. I think I died once doing the actual quests, but I also had some warning (I've gotten world quests there twice and died once each time as well). I used the engineering glider trick to get over to the quest NPC, but today I discovered an alternate route I could have used to get there without the glider (there's a building across from the NPC whose son you rescue with a lower entrance on the river, you'll still need to kill or CC the one elite sentry down there but it's remote enough you don't get adds or patrols). However, I think I still used the rocket boost belt module to zip past the last guards and stairway sentry.

For tank specs at least, if you go to Highmountain and steal a sack of Mammoth Milk from one of the ettins near Thunder Totem, you'll have the self-healing necessary to take on a pack of accidentally pulled elites and eventually.... EVENTUALLY kill them all.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well people also came into this week with whatever raid gear they got last week.

Edit: Also, the harder Warriors are getting hit, the less the rage nerfs matter. The biggest effect this has is in 5-man and open world questing, and on the initial pull.

The problems are RFDT and Ignore Pain. The nerfs were to Vengeance (which does hurt our efficiency with Rage) and our rotation-based Rage generation. People probably stopped using Focused Rage unless they were at very high levels of rage and just used free crit procs otherwise.

So, the nerfs were done in the worst possible way- hits the wrong people disproportionately (people doing non-raid content or of lower skill are affected the most), doesn't solve most of the problem it was intended to address (Prot is apparently still OP), and still screws up the feel of the class.

Exactly.

I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to just smooth out Rage generation with something like this (numbers rough placeholders):

Remove Rage from Damage Taken
Devastate generates 3 Rage.
Shield Slam generates 12 Rage.
Revenge generates 10 Rage, and increases the Rage generation of your next Shield Slam by 5 rage (stacking up to three times).
Impending Victory becomes a standard spell. 30 second cooldown, 0 rage cost. Deals damage, generates 25 rage, and heals for 10% of maximum health.
Ignore Pain still stacks, but retains only 30% of the previous stack's damage value, up to double Ignore Pain's normal value.

You now have a stronger opener (first Impending Victory, before you've taken damage), care more about Revenge instead of fishing for Shield Slam resets all the time, have more Rage when not taking damage, and have more control over your Rage flow. Devastate no longer feels like a COMPLETE waste.

Ignore Pain is still very strong, and stacking it is still valuable, but it's no longer the enormous off-tank buffer and Rage Generator it used to be.

Obviously numbers and exact tuning are complete guesses, but I think something like this might really smooth out Warriors while addressing the issues that make them insane in the right circumstances.

[Icewraith]

Exactly.

I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to just smooth out Rage generation with something like this (numbers rough placeholders):

Remove Rage from Damage Taken
Devastate generates 3 Rage.
Shield Slam generates 12 Rage.
Revenge generates 10 Rage, and increases the Rage generation of your next Shield Slam by 5 rage (stacking up to three times).
Impending Victory becomes a standard spell. 30 second cooldown, 0 rage cost. Deals damage, generates 25 rage, and heals for 10% of maximum health.
Ignore Pain still stacks, but retains only 30% of the previous stack's damage value, up to double Ignore Pain's normal value.

You now have a stronger opener (first Impending Victory, before you've taken damage), care more about Revenge instead of fishing for Shield Slam resets all the time, have more Rage when not taking damage, and have more control over your Rage flow. Devastate no longer feels like a COMPLETE waste.

Ignore Pain is still very strong, and stacking it is still valuable, but it's no longer the enormous off-tank buffer and Rage Generator it used to be.

Obviously numbers and exact tuning are complete guesses, but I think something like this might really smooth out Warriors while addressing the issues that make them insane in the right circumstances.

Worries about an opener could also be reduced by putting Intercept back to 20 Rage- Intercept+SS (=35) was good for a Shield Block (-10) and an Ignore Pain (min -20) on the pull, now we need an extra 10 rage from somewhere or do cheesy things like intercepting the other tank pre-pull for the other 10 rage necessary to get to 30.

IV seems a little too good as a heal that generates rage, I wouldn't mind it costing rage- I also wouldn't mind it being off the GCD but sharing a CD with Focused Rage along with some kind of Rage cost. Killing an appropriate opponent would still remove the rage cost and not cause FR to go on CD.

[TechnOkami]

Blizzard should sub to this thread sometime. :smalltongue:

[Icewraith]

Blizzard should sub to this thread sometime. :smalltongue:

Blizzard should at least realize that Warriors like to build and spend Rage. I'd be perfectly happy with a less powerful IP (maybe same effect but less efficient at converting Rage to Shield) if I had more control over my rage generation and more rage to use on IP/FR/SB.

[Antonok]

So Exorsus, a russian EU guild, has just cleared 7/7 Mythic EN, in less than 24 hours.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Blizzard should at least realize that Warriors like to build and spend Rage. I'd be perfectly happy with a less powerful IP (maybe same effect but less efficient at converting Rage to Shield) if I had more control over my rage generation and more rage to use on IP/FR/SB.

I'd have to agree. The roundabout method of nerfing rage generation so people use Ignore Pain less is kind of dumb when they could have just nerfed Ignore Pain itself. It's a strong ability, no denying it. 90% reduction is preeeetty good. A number lower than that might still work.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Remove Rage from Damage Taken

Remove it and then smack the guy who though it was a good idea to bring back. This mechanic was around before and nobody liked it THEN. I do not know why Death Knight and Warrior tank Class fantasy involved "Lets go back to ideas we threw out before because they didn't work"

[Spore]

No I mean SP. I have been lead (possibly erroneously) that when priest shows up in the DPS slot people are less than happy.

Shadow Priest need Haste and quite a few points in their weapon to start and do more DPS than a bored (non disc) healer. And you need to play well too compete with good DPS, and you will never be as broken in AoE fights or burs as Fire Mages (burst), Windwalker Monks or Demon Hunters.

Shadow Priests are very good in raids and excel at fights with two surviving targets. They are crap in dungeons and AoEing trash though.

[Requizen]

So Exorsus, a russian EU guild, has just cleared 7/7 Mythic EN, in less than 24 hours.

I think they really need to overtune the next level of Mythic.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that there's multiple sources of "endgame" gear. You can get good stuff through dungeons, crafting, world quests, world bosses, and even random drops if you're lucky. It doesn't compare to Heroic/Mythic Raids or Mythic+ Dungeons, but, that means you can get that "foot in the door" gear really easily and make actual progression easy for coordinated raids. But if they want Nighthold to be a challenge, they better create some sort of gap so people don't walk all over it in one go.

[Psyren]

Interesting treatise on Brewmaster from an 850 Mythic (http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749304850?page=1).

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Do Honor Talents affect PVE? A few are explicitly stated to be PVP-related but others do not.

Also I really like Legion's take on the bodyguard system, I might have mentioned that before. Lore wise it's a bit odd that they're not constantly with you, but gameplay wise it works perfectly. I still remember that Ogre from Draenor, who I suspect caused the Bodyguard shrinking device to be put into the game. Thorim is even bigger than that guy, so having him as a temporary summon makes it a non-issue. They also level up while serving as your bodyguard! That was another issue I had with the Draenor version, where each bodyguard was basically in stasis while following you around.

[Icewraith]

Do Honor Talents affect PVE? A few are explicitly stated to be PVP-related but others do not.

Also I really like Legion's take on the bodyguard system, I might have mentioned that before. Lore wise it's a bit odd that they're not constantly with you, but gameplay wise it works perfectly. I still remember that Ogre from Draenor, who I suspect caused the Bodyguard shrinking device to be put into the game. Thorim is even bigger than that guy, so having him as a temporary summon makes it a non-issue. They also level up while serving as your bodyguard! That was another issue I had with the Draenor version, where each bodyguard was basically in stasis while following you around.

I don't like it so much... maybe it's bad RNG, but of my Priest alt's two starting followers, the Bodyguard one has also been the only one whose boss counters have come up. For several days now.

[Psyren]

Do Honor Talents affect PVE? A few are explicitly stated to be PVP-related but others do not.

IIRC they don't trigger at all unless you're in a PvP situation.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I don't like it so much... maybe it's bad RNG, but of my Priest alt's two starting followers, the Bodyguard one has also been the only one whose boss counters have come up. For several days now.

Oh yeah, I had that issue too. But after unlocking the full roster of champions I'm free to arrange my roster to cover all the skills (Warrior has 3 possible bodyguards out of 8 champions, don't know about others). I used the starter bodyguard for a while, but needed her to do missions, so sent her back and didn't use a bodyguard again until earlier today. What's that, a month since legion launched?

[turbo164]

Do Honor Talents affect PVE? A few are explicitly stated to be PVP-related but others do not.

Also I really like Legion's take on the bodyguard system, I might have mentioned that before. Lore wise it's a bit odd that they're not constantly with you, but gameplay wise it works perfectly. I still remember that Ogre from Draenor, who I suspect caused the Bodyguard shrinking device to be put into the game. Thorim is even bigger than that guy, so having him as a temporary summon makes it a non-issue. They also level up while serving as your bodyguard! That was another issue I had with the Draenor version, where each bodyguard was basically in stasis while following you around.

PvP talents are PvP only. It's very noticeable for me, as two of mine are "+6% haste" and "33% faster global cooldown" on my main rotation, so as soon as I leave the Warden tower my spells feel like molasses :smallannoyed: (that, and the activatable talents grey out...)

Regarding bodyguard xp, up until 9 days ago they got 150 xp for *any* quest completed, including world quests. Then they got randomly hotfixed/bugged into only receiving xp from non-world quests. So unless you still have a big chunk of Surumar storyline to do, you'll have to send your bodyguard back to Facebook at some point, since they no longer learn anything from killing world bosses or capturing squirrels.

[The Glyphstone]

That's gotta be a bug. I thought they got 30XP per world quest, and only from World quests.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

That's interesting. I didn't really keep track, but Thorim did ding 110 while I was on the naga/vrykul Suramar quest. And not during the bunch of world quests I did prior to that.

Hmm. So if you go into a world pvp quest, your Honor Talents activate? Or do you have to be actually fighting another player. If I can get buffed while on those quests I'll take it.

[The_Jackal]

That's interesting. I didn't really keep track, but Thorim did ding 110 while I was on the naga/vrykul Suramar quest. And not during the bunch of world quests I did prior to that.

Hmm. So if you go into a world pvp quest, your Honor Talents activate? Or do you have to be actually fighting another player. If I can get buffed while on those quests I'll take it.

Based on my limited experience, they only work for instanced PVP.

[ryuplaneswalker]

PvP talents are PvP only. It's very noticeable for me, as two of mine are "+6% haste" and "33% faster global cooldown" on my main rotation, so as soon as I leave the Warden tower my spells feel like molasses (that, and the activatable talents grey out...)


Well that is just intended as to make haste better.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Suramar City is really becoming a big hassle. The detectors are so tightly packed that evading them is impossible. I mean it works if you're passing through and plan to escape into the water or just out of the city but if there's actually something you need to to do there, aggroing 20+ demons and guards isn't going to make that possible. Do they expect us to assemble a dungeon group or something, just fight through?

[Antonok]

I found it a lot easier to just use a glider and para trooper to the spot in Suromar.

But I 100% agree they need to cull some of the detectors, or give them a longer cast time. They're becoming a meme ffs.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

The first few missions around the outskirts and the Waning Crescent are fine. But when you get to the quests nearer the center and the east side the density spikes like mad.

[Icewraith]

Suramar City is really becoming a big hassle. The detectors are so tightly packed that evading them is impossible. I mean it works if you're passing through and plan to escape into the water or just out of the city but if there's actually something you need to to do there, aggroing 20+ demons and guards isn't going to make that possible. Do they expect us to assemble a dungeon group or something, just fight through?

I think they do. Once I did the questline in the high density area, every day for that same area I've gotten a world quest with the "you really should get some people together for this" elite portrait used for the Wardens Kill quests I can't solo and dungeons.

Also, evading the detectors is usually possible, but you have to be patient, or you can usually find a vulnerable one you can fight in a corner without pulling half the city.

The architecture in that part of the city also includes a lot of terraces and ramps that have guards at the top but not necessarily at the bottom. In several cases, I've discovered that the way to get to your next objective is to run halfway up one ramp, onto a decorative terrace, and then over to a ramp on the other side of the square that has detectors at the bottom of the ramp but not the top (or has one detector at the top).

Also, you can just wait for some less careful person to accidentally pull ten mobs and then pull half the city trying to leash those ten mobs. You still need to stay away from detectors though, even when they're leashing- sometimes they'll stop mid-leash and try to pop your disguise. If you're doing a daily quest in that area, it doesn't seem to take very long until you run across such a person.

Probably the most concerning mobs are the Shivarras, since their detect is instant or almost instant-cast. Most of the others you've still got a second or so to dance around the edge of their detection area before they get a cast off.

Also, the detection area for most of the elites is somewhat smaller than the regular detectors in other parts of the city, IIRC.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Funny story. As it turns out, to my great surprise, I managed to do the "rumor spreading" quest without dying or even fighting a detector.

Goblin gliding (cheers, Antonok) from the vineyard, since the city drops pretty steeply from there, allowed me to get to all three targets (two trips). I brushed a detector or two but scampered before they broke the disguise. Maybe that was the trick all along. If I had tried to complete the entire quest line on foot I don't think it would have been possible.

[TechnOkami]

I think between Feign Death and Camouflage on my hunter I'll be fine with that quest.

[Icewraith]

I think between Feign Death and Camouflage on my hunter I'll be fine with that quest.

Feign maybe, but Camouflage won't help you at all with the detectors IIRC. It'll just slow you down and make it easier for patrols to catch up with you.

[TechnOkami]

I wish that the Blood DK Artifact Skins weren't all axes. Except for the straighter axe with the big skull, I really don't care about any of the Blood DK Skins. Even the one I do mildly like I don't care about.

Honestly I wish I could swap with the skin of one of the Arms skins instead of what we're offered. I'm going to go Death DK to get the two handed fantasy going, but I LOVE the self healing off of blood DK's.

Ah well. What do.

[Psyren]

Can you transmog one artifact to look like another? Apocalypse (the Unholy artifact) has some red-tinged skins that would look nice on a Blood DK.

[TechnOkami]

Nope, you can't transmog an artifact to look like another artifact, even if said artifact would be available to your class.

If you could, like, what would Feral Druids look like with the Scythe of Elune? Would they just be holding it in their mouth as they clawed things to death? :smalltongue:

BUUUUUUUUUUUT you can transmog artifacts to look like something else! Say, the Apocalypse two handed greatsword non-artifact weapon that drops in.... Nax I think? It's my favorite greatsword. I can transmog my artifact to a greatsword.

I would be extremely content with this, and my dreams of a Blood DK are not shattered, although Death DK has piqued my interest. I mean, minions man.

Edit: a question I forgot to ask: how do you raise your reputation with the Court of Farondis? I ask because I want to buy the secret skin for my Hunter Marksman Artifact, and I don't know how to raise rep quickly, or at all, aside from doing quests for them (which I already completed), or having a special tabard which redirects my stuff to rep with a particular group, which I don't think the Court has.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Edit: a question I forgot to ask: how do you raise your reputation with the Court of Farondis? I ask because I want to buy the secret skin for my Hunter Marksman Artifact, and I don't know how to raise rep quickly, or at all, aside from doing quests for them (which I already completed), or having a special tabard which redirects my stuff to rep with a particular group, which I don't think the Court has.

Do the Emmisary quests for them when they pop up, and do Kirin Tor Emmisary and choose them as your rep token reward.

[Kish]

Only one axe artifact, weird.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Only one axe artifact, weird.

One axe, a ton of swords. Tis a bit lopsided. But well..90% of them are lazy checklist crap anyways.

[turbo164]

Do the Emmisary quests for them when they pop up, and do Kirin Tor Emmisary and choose them as your rep token reward.

Also, Order Hall missions will occasionally give +250 rep as a reward (with a second one as a bonus), and Mythic Dungeons give some rep on boss kills.

Also check the calendar for World Quest Bonus Event and Legion Dungeon Bonus Event; if it's like Draenor, those will likely have reputation bonuses.

[otakuryoga]

is it just me or did they nerf ancientmana farming in the vineyard to the ground..and move it to the midnight court with 80 elite gotcha guards per square inch?

was there yesterday for a while, SOLO!, and got just 3 spawns in 15 minutes
i could snag more than that in 3 minutes with 3 other people running around last week....

[The Glyphstone]

Ancient mana nodes behave like mobs, I think - their respawn rate is determined by how quickly they get collected, which is an indicator of how many people are in the area. With more people farming the vineyard, the items will repopulate quicker.

[Psyren]

If you could, like, what would Feral Druids look like with the Scythe of Elune? Would they just be holding it in their mouth as they clawed things to death? :smalltongue:

Well, I meant "like type to like." So you couldn't make a TWF or sword-and-board artifact look like a 2H weapon for instance. Feral and Guardian both dual-wield their artifacts, so neither of them would end up with the Scythe.

(Also, artifacts aren't visible in bear or cat anyway.)



BUUUUUUUUUUUT you can transmog artifacts to look like something else! Say, the Apocalypse two handed greatsword non-artifact weapon that drops in.... Nax I think? It's my favorite greatsword. I can transmog my artifact to a greatsword.

Yeah I knew about this, but it would still have been nice if you could use the artifact designs too.

[TechnOkami]

I have a potentially broad question: what are heirlooms/heirloom gear? Why are they so special/valued?

[Psyren]

I have a potentially broad question: what are heirlooms/heirloom gear? Why are they so special/valued?

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Heirloom

They're valuable primarily because they let you level up your alts faster (1-100), both because of the exp boost they provide to speed up the process, and the fact that they scale with your character so you end up needing fewer gear replacements for optimal stats as you level. In addition, several of them occupy slots that are hard for low-level characters to fill like Head and Trinkets.

[TechnOkami]

Nifty...

I assume that only characters of a particular faction can trade heirlooms to characters within said faction. Would they have to be on the same server too?

Ahpffsh... I'll actually need to figure out which heirlooms I'd need for the toons I'd want to level quickly. Do they really expedite the leveling process to, say, being able to get a toon to 90/100 in a few hours? A few days? Is this heirloom dependant?

[The Glyphstone]

You don't need to trade heirlooms between characters at all. Once you 'learn' an heirloom, it goes into your collection, and you can spawn a copy of that heirloom into the bags of any character on your account.

As for how much, a full set of XP-boosting heirlooms minus the Dread Pirate Ring (only obtainable by winning the Fishing Tournament), will boost your XP gain by 45% (it'd be 50% with said ring). So you'll level that much faster, essentially cutting your leveling time by roughly 1/3.

[TechnOkami]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp I've gotta get some heirlooms after I get the gold for 30 days of WoW then!

[otakuryoga]

there is also the heirloom mount which lets you "get chauffered" around(basically it lets you mount before you can mount)..though i never needed it so dont really know how you get it

----

outta curiousity where in San Jose you at?
i was born and raised there

[TechnOkami]

there is also the heirloom mount which lets you "get chauffered" around(basically it lets you mount before you can mount)..though i never needed it so dont really know how you get it

Is that the one with the Orc Butler that drives you around? Because I actually really want that one. I like the fact that your character sits in the side car of the motorcycle.


outta curiousity where in San Jose you at?
i was born and raised there

I'm within walking distance of the Shark Tank.

[Psyren]

there is also the heirloom mount which lets you "get chauffered" around(basically it lets you mount before you can mount)..though i never needed it so dont really know how you get it

You get it automatically after buying a certain number of the other heirlooms (I forget how many.) AFAIK it's the only mount usable before level 20 so it can speed up your low-level questing considerably, if you don't mind the noise.

[ryuplaneswalker]

-gets the final alchemy quest-

80 Starlight Rose..you need 80 Starlight rose.

I hate everything about professions in this expansion. Seriously, they want you to waste 15K gold worth of mats to unlock a set of recipies.

[The_Jackal]

-gets the final alchemy quest-

80 Starlight Rose..you need 80 Starlight rose.

I hate everything about professions in this expansion. Seriously, they want you to waste 15K gold worth of mats to unlock a set of recipies.

It's not the quest chain that makes the mats worth 15k gold, it's the huge gold inflation from Garrison giveaway economics in Warlords. Also, I gather lots of gatherers dropped their professions in Warlords, because free garrison herbs and mines gutted the utility of the profession.