Playing Tempest Cleric - Need tips on when to use Bless, Bane, SoF

[MrCeeJ]

As stated above, I'm playing a Tempest Cleric. My party consists of all ranged, except for a Monk and assassin rogue. We have a druid, but he's not much of a healer.

My Fighter/Pally died so I decided to go Tempest Cleric to attempt to fill 2 rolls, but heavier on the healer. Starting at level 3 cleric.

I have a couple questions in regards to action economy and deciding between which Concentration spells to use. I also wield a longsword and shield. I doubt I'll have reason to use the 2H version of the longsword, but thought some flavor would be nice.

So, obviously, the situation will determine which buff/debuff spell to use. But let me see if I get the gist:

Bane on a grouping of at least 3 enemies

Bless on my group (myself and the other melee maybe) if there's only a couple enemies or a boss

And shield of faith on myself if I want to ditch my shield and use my longsword as 2H for some flavorful fun time on the last remaining boss/enemy since I don't know when else I'd use it as 2H.

I usually play melee characters that don't cast a whole lot, so determining action economy is going to be tricky. I'm also the only one that cares enough to really learn how to use my characters, hence why I'm the healer lol.

Anyways, any tips/tricks/guidance is helpful. Thanks.

[PeteNutButter]

What is your race? Stats?

If bane didn't have a saving throw, I consider your analysis correct, but unfortunately it does. Having that saving throw attached to Bane means there is a chance it does nothing. Bless on the other hand always works. Bless is just better.

Use SoF if you REALLY can't afford to get hit and use it with your shield for a good high AC. Generally just bless until level 5 and then cast spirit guardians when you can.

[MrCeeJ]

What is your race? Stats?

If bane didn't have a saving throw, I consider your analysis correct, but unfortunately it does. Having that saving throw attached to Bane means there is a chance it does nothing. Bless on the other hand always works. Bless is just better.

Use SoF if you REALLY can't afford to get hit and use it with your shield for a good high AC. Generally just bless until level 5 and then cast spirit guardians when you can.

Human Variant with Resilient (CON) feat. Stats are:

STR 14
DEX 6
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 12

Save proficiencies are CON, WIS, and CHA.

DM had custom starting stats that he wanted us to use of 16,14,13,12,10,6. The idea is to have one really good starting stat and one bad one to give the character a weakness. Wearing heavy armor makes up for the low DEX and I'm not too worried about initiative.

Bane requires the enemy to make a CHA save. I guess it depends on the enemy, but I feel like it'd be low for most enemies, yes?

So, a good way to start a fight (for trash mobs) seems to be - pop bless, then spirit weapon, then wade into battle using S&B and spirit weapon on BA. If it's a boss, mix in ranged thunder spells before going into melee and drop Wrath when I'm hit.

At level 4 should I put ASI into WIS or pick up War Caster feat? How relevant is that feat for a cleric?

[Pex]

Use Bless when facing opponents who use magic.

Use Bane when you really need the opponents to fail a saving throw, especially for another party member's spell on the same turn or to overcome an ongoing effect like Web.

Use Shield of Faith when facing opponents who attack from range while getting close to them or buff a party member when he needs to get close.

There are other reasons to use each spell, but those are a good baseline.

[RSP]

In my opinion, Bless wins out pretty much 85% of the time. I think it works out to something like 12.5% more damage on average for 3 characters, plus helps on saves. The only time I use a different 1st level concentration spell is when facing something subject to Protection from Evil and I either really don't want to get hit (disadvantage is fantastic) or don't want to get charmed, feared or possessed.

I don't see too many reasons to deviate from those two, but your mileage may vary.

[MrStabby]

Bless is usually the better spell but bane can be good in certain circumstances.

If you have a lot of high armour in your group and chances of being hit are low then bane can let you tank out an encounter taking minimal hits. If the d4 difference could mean being hit only about 50-60% of the time you would be otherwise then this is viable.

Otherwise it is about forcing spells through. In a tough encounter where casters are going to be blowing through a lot of spell slots needing saves then this can be good - this really needs a tough encounter and a caster intensive party to justify though. Think bane followed by two fireballs as an encounter opener (an example, not always the best choice) - bane will boost the average damage of the spell and still have effects left over afterwards.

On the other hand bless is almost always good. To be honest it is worth a 1 level dip in cleric for anyone who can get it if no one in the party has it.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Casting Bane and having a monk follow up with Stunning Strike can be great though.

[BW022]

As stated above, I'm playing a Tempest Cleric. My party consists of all ranged, except for a Monk and assassin rogue. We have a druid, but he's not much of a healer.

My Fighter/Pally died so I decided to go Tempest Cleric to attempt to fill 2 rolls, but heavier on the healer. Starting at level 3 cleric.
...
Anyways, any tips/tricks/guidance is helpful. Thanks.

You are taking the role of tank and healer. Trying to think you can maintain any buffs, debuffs, attack, etc. at the same time is likely unreasonable.

Even with plate and a shield, your best AC is 20. Creatures can easily have a +5 to attack, so they hit you 25% of the time (15-20). If you are facing multiple opponents, expect to get hit almost every round and likely your fail your concentration check half the time. Thus, you can't maintain blesses, banes, or even shield of faith for that long if you are front line. Further, once you start getting hit, you'll need to spend your rounds healing yourself.

My advice...

1. Never cast a concentration spells if you are going into melee or standing front-line. Protection from evil might be the one exception if all your foes are undead, fey, outsiders, etc. as the disadvantage is typically equal to a -5 overall. Expect you are going to get hit and such spells won't last long.

2. Expect that you won't be able to attack much. Many rounds you'll need to either cast a healing spell, go defensive, etc.

3. Your attacks are normally pretty weak. At 5th, a sacred flame likely does as much damage as a sword (2d8 vs. 1d8+3) and your thunderwave spell is almost always better than attacking the moment you have multiple enemies near you (2d8 over a 15-foot cube) plus it knocks them back. Thunderwave is also often useful to push folks back in order to move to another location without having to use disengage.

4. Consider taking sanctuary. It is a bonus action, lasts 1 minute, no concentration, and keeps you safe as long as you don't attack. If you are badly damaged, cast it and then go defensive as an action. Then heal on future rounds.

5. Consider taking healing word besides cure wounds as a prepared spell. One issue that you'll have at the front-line is that you'll pinned down at the front. If creatures break off and get to another PC or used ranged/spell attacks against them... you often can't get back to heal them with cure light wounds. In addition, since it is only a bonus action to cast... you can still get an action. Going defensive and healing yourself is a good one in trouble. Attacking and healing word yourself is fine for minor hits.

6. You have a hands issue. You can't cast spells with a shield and weapon in your hand. Warcaster is the obvious solution. Until you get it... have weapons you can drop easily and don't have a lot of weight. Drop, take your actions, and then use your interact with object action to draw another weapon. Thus, you have a weapon at the end of each round for opportunity attacks.

7. Tanking is more difficult as a cleric. The main issue is that once you start spending actions casting and your attacks aren't doing much damage... many opponents will just move around you to get to the rest of the party. You aren't as much of a threat and it isn't that costly to simply move around you and draw the opportunity attack. Clerics don't have many control spells, so your other party members need to take control spells and you need to be ready to move and put yourself in the best choke-points you can find. You need to attack enough to make yourself a viable target.

8. Your druid needs to be ready and willing to off-heal you and the entire party needs to know that once committed to blocking, you will be healing yourself and not to expect much from you.

9. Your party is likely pretty weak in ranged. You need to work with the party such that they stay out of melee and don't take damage. The monk and rogue need to use ranged or mobility to not stay around in melee and take damage. Against other ranged foes... they need to concentrate on them quickly as healing them while blocking is extremely draining.

10. Be ready for someone else to off-tank. The druid is the obvious choice. They go into animal form, put shield of faith on them, and then you can stay back using various spells and healing the animal/druid. At higher-levels, have the druid summon some bears and then buff and heal the bears.

[MrCeeJ]

I appreciate the feedback.

So it definitely seems like Bless is the superior of the two. Is Divine Favor even worth contending for a spell slot?

I get the feeling that my spell slot usage will be reserved for popping bless (hopefully only once), spirit sword, and healing. Maybe Guided Bolt on a boss or someone worth using it on.

Sound about right?

I had another question though, about casting during melee combat. So the session my Fighter/Paladin died, I was flanked on both sides by enemies. My HP was running low, so I wanted to use Lay on Hands. Since I was in CQC, the DM believed that using LoH would provoke an attack of opportunity (regardless of being flanked), because it requires me to remove one hand from my greatsword and leave me open to attack. We debated for a little bit, but I conceded since he's DM and there was nothing in the book. So instead of healing myself, I made an attack and missed. Since I was not able to heal myself, I died on the next turn.

Since I'm going to be playing a cleric that will eventually wade into the fight, my concern is if I have to cast a healing spell (or any spell, really) on myself or a party member, I'm going to risk an AoO regardless if I cast it in CQC or move away and cast. Does that seem right?

[CursedRhubarb]

If I'm remembering correctly, the only time casting would proc an Attack of Opportunity is if there was an enemy within 5ft of you with the Mage Slayer feat or similar ability.

Spells with attack rolls get disadvantage, but spells that don't have attack rolls don't really take a penalty from being in melee range. If they did the storm cleric running in and doing AoE thunder with their Channel Divinity to max the damage would be a LOT less effective.

[Finieous]

Even with plate and a shield, your best AC is 20. Creatures can easily have a +5 to attack, so they hit you 25% of the time (15-20).


That's 30%.



If you are facing multiple opponents, expect to get hit almost every round and likely your fail your concentration check half the time. Thus, you can't maintain blesses, banes, or even shield of faith for that long if you are front line.


Against three opponents with one attack each, all three will miss him 34% of the time. Against two opponents, both will miss him 49% of the time. If the opponents have bane on them, each one's chance to hit is 17.5% and the chances for all to miss increase to 56% and 68%, respectively (or 51% and 64% with shield of faith).

So he probably won't be hit "almost every round" with one of those spells up. Roughly every other round against three attackers, or every three rounds against two.

As for those concentration checks. He has a +3 Con bonus and +2 proficiency bonus. With bless up, he has a 12.5% chance of a failing a Con save on average. So he probably won't fail his save "half the time."

In summary, bless is good.

[MrCeeJ]

If I'm remembering correctly, the only time casting would proc an Attack of Opportunity is if there was an enemy within 5ft of you with the Mage Slayer feat or similar ability.

Spells with attack rolls get disadvantage, but spells that don't have attack rolls don't really take a penalty from being in melee range. If they did the storm cleric running in and doing AoE thunder with their Channel Divinity to max the damage would be a LOT less effective.

That's what I figured. Especially a class like Paladin, when he's expected to be in melee, shouldn't be penalized for trying to heal himself while up close with an enemy.

I'll have to try and discuss this with the DM, especially since I'm the main source of healing. Maybe having the shield will help convince him.

As for the other comments, maybe it'll help if I explain the party make up.

Tempest Cleric
Ranged Fighter with X-bow expert
Rogue Assassin
Monk (Very new player/ wasn't there last session)
Druid (Bear form, but mainly stays ranged)
Sorceress (Has a lot of RP helpful spells, not so much combat, she's also very new)

So, as you can see, not a whole lot of melee muscle, hence why I'm trying to cover 2 roles. Obviously I won't be trying to be the main tank, but I want to be able to keep some enemies from going straight to my ranged fighters. Bless seems best for trying to pick off mobs before they get to the group and my CON saves while trying to wade into the fight.

I'll definitely be using my ranged options (guiding bolt, sacred flame) while I can, but sadly, Bless won't help Sacred Flame hit, so going melee seems like a better option as the trash mobs go down, especially with spiritual weapon up.

I'm not naïve and know that I couldn't possibly fill both tank and healer roles adequately. I'm just trying to come up with ways for it to just be enough. It'll definitely be tricky later on when the DM creates encounters where range will be difficult, he's already threatened it.

At level 4, it seems it'd be best for me to pick up War Caster over adding +2 to WIS, seeing as how I'll be needing the ability to cast with occupied hands and the CON save adv. Is there any reason not to go with War Caster and go ASI points?

[Biggstick]

Sacred Weapon usage should be fighting with Prayer of Healing imo. If they expect you to heal at all, it should be only when they fall down and are making death saving throws, and even then, it's only a Healing Word. Otherwise, all of the healing can come out of combat in the form of Prayer of Healing.

Your primary concentration spell should be Bless. It is going to be a great spell your Fighter, Rogue, Monk, as well as yourself. If you're only using it as a level 1 spell (don't forget you can upcast Bless and include more then 3 targets), you should be choosing yourself and 2 of those targets every time. This concentration spell is going to carry you as the primary concentration spell for the duration of your campaign in a majority of your combat situations. The next spell to be utilizing is Sanctuary+Dodge action. The combination of Dodge+Sanctuary while maintaining the Bless spell is a fantastic help for your entire party.

As for Resilient: Con, I'd see if your DM would allow you to instead pick up Warcaster at level 1 instead. It's going to bring a lot more to your early game power being able to utilize the Sacred Flame opportunity attack (or Command spell opportunity attack), as well as allow you to cast with your hands full. Advantage on spell concentration effects is also more valuable then the +proficiency to saves until you reach PC level 9. Once you reach +6 on your concentration checks (which you could theoretically have if you have 16 Con and are within the +3 proficiency level range), that's where Resilient: Con becomes competitive with Warcaster for concentration checks. Some people will bring up the additional hp from Resilient: Con, and yes that's definitely true, you get additional hp from it. It just seems to me that if you're worried about losing concentration from playing a melee spell caster, Warcaster has all the important things you're looking for, and is much more valuable to a PC straight from level 1 compared to getting it later on.

[NNescio]

Bless is generally the best choice out of the three, especially with multiple ranged characters on your party (moreso if they have Sharpshooter) because these guys tend to attack almost every round (unlike melee types who have to move closer first, or can use their attacks for shoving and grappling).

Bane is more circumstantial. It is useful when you have another caster going after your initiative who wants to land a BFC spell. It is also useful against big dumb brute types of enemies, due to the nature of the save (Cha) and debuff. Generally Bane is better when you outnumber your enemies.

Shield of Faith is a crap spell except for >20 AC people who want to push their AC even further. Sanctuary is generally better if you want to protect a squishy until his next turn (or even more if the squishy decides to run or just maintain a concentration spell without attacking).

I wouldn't even prepare Bane or Shield of Faith on normal days. At level 3 you can prepare 6 spells (not counting domain spells). Bless, Spiritual Weapon (Cleric's extra attack), Healing Word (bring downed allies back up as a bonus action, at range), and Prayer of Healing (efficient out-of-combat healing) are autopicks. Sanctuary, Command, Guiding Bolt, Silence, Aid and Hold Person are competing for your remaining two. Maybe even Detect Magic, if you don't have a Wizard in your party. There's no room for Bane or Shield of Faith.

Guiding Bolt is particularly tempting at low levels, because it deals more damage than a Chromatic Orb (and with radiant, generally a far better damage type than most Orb elements) WITH a rider effect on top (which can enable a Rogue's SA). It scales very poorly though, but eh, just drop it later.

That said, as a Tempest Cleric, you do already have access to blasting spells, so there's that.

At higher levels you get even more spells that are competing for your limited number of prepared spells AND concentration, making Bane and Shield of Faith even less attractive.

[Specter]

Got many weapon guys focusing on you? SoF.

Otherwise? Bless.

Bane can't compete with those, in my opinion.

[MrCeeJ]

Thanks for the advice!

So I'll most likely roll with -

Level 1 Spells:
Bless
Guiding Bolt
Healing Word
Sanctuary
Thunderwave
Fog Cloud

Level 2:
Spiritual Weapon
Prayer of Healing (Might not need it since we always seem to rest after fights)
Or Hold Person (depending on what it seems like I'll need it)
Shatter
Gus of Wind

[NNescio]

Thanks for the advice!

So I'll most likely roll with -

Level 1 Spells:
Bless
Guiding Bolt
Healing Word
Sanctuary
Thunderwave
Fog Cloud

Level 2:
Spiritual Weapon
Prayer of Healing (Might not need it since we always seem to rest after fights)
Or Hold Person (depending on what it seems like I'll need it)
Shatter
Gus of Wind

That's a very good selection of spells.