Unreasonable DM

[Esper_Manny]

Alright this is my Situation. We are on a quest to find gems of power to prevent a resurrection of some kinda ultra powerful lich.Im a bard and it's been difficult because the dm wont let me use many of the good feats i can use like scribe scroll,create rod,etc, in trying to get over the fence of not having to wait 3 turns or more of casting magic.I had to get Melodic casting, which he denied ever happening. If i reach level 9, my arcane strike feat might even amount to nothing.He wont let my party get any perstige classes, alot of them are forced to muticlass, and even that is terrible, we have to split EXP until both class levels match. I need help :smallfrown:

[Starsinger]

Well, the very nature of Prestige Class is that they're "GM approval". However, he seems to be denying you guys things that don't fit exactly into his perfectly planned box of what you are and are not allowed to take.

[Hazkali]

I would confront him directly, but calmly and politely, about the points you have raised.


Ask him for a good reason as to why you cannot take item creation feats.
Ask him why you can't have Melodic Casting, and what you can have instead.
Ask him why you can't go into a prestige class, and why you must keep multiclass levels equal.
If you'e worried about Arcane Strike, ask him if you can retrain, as per the Players Handbook 2.


If he comes up with a good reason then shrug you shoulders and get on with it. There are plenty of books and feats to optimise your character.

If he can't come up with a good reason (either in terms of the game world or the metagame) then ask him again "Why can't I take X?". If he still doesn't let you, then you've either got the choice to pack up or shut up. I know which I'd do.

[Lucky]

You really need to confront him directly, possibly as a group. Don't be rude or blame him for everything, just calmly explain your problem with what he's doing. If he doesn't do anything, get a new DM.

Alternatively, you could just skip right to the "get a new DM" part.

[Mordokai]

What he said. If being nice doesn't work you can always be nasty. I found out that sledgehammer works wonders in this way :smallbiggrin:

If he doesn't come up with good reasons you are better packing up things and leaving all together. Game is supposed to be fun, and that is hard if the DM is being a hard-ass.

[Esper_Manny]

well i am really worried. We faced 3 abolths at level 5 and a elder beholder at 6 without fighters and me gazed to death. i think only twice that the dm had to intervene.I havent been in this campaign long enough but i have a pretty good idea where this is heading.

[Lucky]

Look, if it's getting to a point where you're worried and no longer having fun, just jump ship. There's no point to this game if you're not having fun, so don't bother forcing yourself.

[Hazkali]

well i am really worried. We faced 3 abolths at level 5 and a elder beholder at 6 without fighters and me gazed to death. i think only twice that the dm had to intervene.I havent been in this campaign long enough but i have a pretty good idea where this is heading.

You were either being incredibly stupid ("Let's launch a pre-emptive assault on the aboleth hive!"), or you were supposed to run away, or your DM doesn't know the rules.

If the latter, whether this is his fault or not depends on how long he's been playing; when my circle started playing D+D I was new to D+D too, but someone had to be DM, and that someone was me. So it could be he genuinely doesn't understand the Challenge Rating system. Or he could just be an idiot.

The only time an experienced DM would pit you against those sorts of challenges is if you've "asked for it" or if you're supposed to run away. The encounter calculator on the SRD describes this challenge as "Overpowering", which you should be facing only about 5% of the time.

[Esper_Manny]

we have to collect magic gems, im not sure what would be an alternative to not having to face these things. we are expecting to face 2 dragons, an illthid and some other stuff to get these things, and the party only gets 50k EXP, which gets evened out throughout the party. Our party, at max, might be 7-8 players so that isnt much compared to the challenge rating. We dont even get to keep these gems, they go back to some temple.

[Hazkali]

But you do get other treasure from these encounters?

The more you say, the more I want to force your DM to read the SRD until his eyes bleed.

[Esper_Manny]

We do get treasure :) but alot of the treasure that i got cannot be sold to normal shops, i have to hunt down this upside down pyramid to sell my stuff like my horn of Blasting and my cloak of the bat :smallannoyed: the last time i went to this pyramid, i got jumped by 6 raptors and i ran away since the mage that was with me used an invisibility ring to hide himself and i went down to 3 hp before he could get to where i was :smalleek:

[Lucky]

We do get treasure :) but alot of the treasure that i got cannot be sold to normal shops, i have to hunt down this upside down pyramid to sell my stuff like my horn of Blasting and my cloak of the bat :smallannoyed: the last time i went to this pyramid, i got jumped by 6 raptors and i ran away since the mage that was with me used an invisibility ring to hide himself and i went down to 3 hp before he could get to where i was :smalleek:
Beat his head in.* With the DMG. Irony would appreciate it.

But seriously, this guy just needs to be talked to, stop talking to us, and go confront him. I'm sure the rest of the party is on your side, so bring them too.

*I do not actually endorse doing this.

[Kiero]

Have you raised your concerns with the GM outside of the game? Because until you do that, all this speculation is pretty much useless.

[Esper_Manny]

i asked him once before about scribe scroll and his sources told him that i cant use the feat so i picked melodic casting, which is my last resort. He doesnt want us picking Prestige classes because of balancing issues, he wants to make it simple. I dont know what my options are at this point. I dont know what bardic music feats i can take to boost my character up.i just feel boxed in by this dm who is also a friend from a ghost recon group that i play in. it's not like he's an unknown guy, i meet him almost everyday, and play different games like dangerous waters and stuff.I know where he's coming from, the campaign we are in is a result of 15 years of playing it and building up the storyline, maps and such.I tried using the search feature on this site to get more suggestions on bard builds but it's hard to use ^^* im waiting for him to come on so i can find out the limits he's put on my bard or magic in general.

[Narmoth]

All not-core limitations of the classes, and all optional rules should have been made clear before starting the campaign. This not bein the case, you should be running the rules the dm use last campaign or the core rules.
Simple as that.

[Yuki Akuma]

"His sources told him"? What?

He doesn't know what he's talking about. Does he own a DMG? Does he own a PHB, even?

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Don't use the forum search feature; use google with "site:giantitp.com" as part of the search command. Easier on the forums (if I'm wrong about this part, someone please correct me) and you can use it as much as you want.

[SoulCatcher78]

"His sources told him"? What?

He doesn't know what he's talking about. Does he own a DMG? Does he own a PHB, even?

Seconded! I can understand wanting to limit what he has to learn just to run a quick adventure. If you're planning something for years though, you'd think he'd bother to find out how the system works and that 1 aboleth or beholder should be wiping out the entire party (at that level) much less multiples of these beasties. I'm voting for a lack of planning on the DMs part or the party got off course and it was the easiest way back to the main plot. If you have to fight your way into a shop to sell some loot off, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish...why not just have the guy in the shop swindle you down to nothing? Raptors don't scare me nearly as much as a good haggler.

Have a talk with him about what the problem is, chances are he might give a little rather than having the whole game collapse and ruin his "years" of planning.

[Were-Sandwich]

To reiterate Yumi's point: This guy has had at least a passing glance through a DMG, right?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

It sounds like this DM has some good "sources".

I think you should give the DM a break. I mean we all know how über the Bard class is and how you need the prestige class SchreibenMeister to use the Scribe Scroll feat.


However, you should still tell him how you feel and have a talk about what is available and what house rules are used.

[Starsinger]

He doesnt want us picking Prestige classes because of balancing issues, he wants to make it simple.

I don't generally espouse this sort of behavior but, DMs like this need to be punished, with some good old fashioned Batman/CoDzilla action. Not wanting a prestige class because you don't want to re-flavor something is lazy or understandable. Not wanting prestige classes in a game because they have certain abilities you don't want, like Archmage in a low magic game, is understandable. Not wanting prestige classes to preserve "game balance"? Lunacy!

You threw away the notion of "game balance" when you cracked open the PHB.
Show him that you can be just as imbalanced in core as you can without prestige classes. Revolt against the oppressive totalitarian DMtator! Also.. cackling sinisterly while you Timestop + Force Cage + Cloudkill his monsters to death... and twirl a handle bar mustache if you gots one.

[Kiero]

i asked him once before about scribe scroll and his sources told him that i cant use the feat so i picked melodic casting, which is my last resort. He doesnt want us picking Prestige classes because of balancing issues, he wants to make it simple. I dont know what my options are at this point. I dont know what bardic music feats i can take to boost my character up.i just feel boxed in by this dm who is also a friend from a ghost recon group that i play in. it's not like he's an unknown guy, i meet him almost everyday, and play different games like dangerous waters and stuff.I know where he's coming from, the campaign we are in is a result of 15 years of playing it and building up the storyline, maps and such.I tried using the search feature on this site to get more suggestions on bard builds but it's hard to use ^^* im waiting for him to come on so i can find out the limits he's put on my bard or magic in general.

It's the GM's prerogative to say what's in and out in their game, provided everyone has bought into that at the start. If you knew from the beginning that there'd be no prestige classes, and that's the case for everyone, then I'm afraid you don't have an argument.

Have you had an explicit conversation with the GM about the specific issues around which you're unhappy? I don't mean whining about something when it happens in-game. I mean outside of the game, raising that as a topic of conversation and raising your concerns.

Either way the whole thing sounds like a communication issue.

[Rachel Lorelei]

It's the GM's prerogative to say what's in and out in their game, provided everyone has bought into that at the start.

That, ah, doesn't mean that anything the DM says is reasonable.

[Kurald Galain]

That, ah, doesn't mean that anything the DM says is reasonable.

No, but at least some semblance of explanation is likely to be more reasonable than "because I say so", which would appear to be what he's doing now.

[Tormsskull]

I don't generally espouse this sort of behavior but, DMs like this need to be punished, with some good old fashioned Batman/CoDzilla action.

You can't punish DMs with in-game actions. Anything that you do they can just as easily counter with rule 0. Trying to fight fire with fire against a DM when you are a player is utterly pointless.

To OP:

I might be wrong, but based on your typing style I am guessing you are pretty young, and thus your DM probably is to. As such, your only choices might be to roll with the punches or leave the group. I'd try the normal answer to nearly all questions, try talking rationally to your DM first, and then proceed from there.

[Kiero]

That, ah, doesn't mean that anything the DM says is reasonable.

You didn't parse the second part of that statement:


provided everyone has bought into that at the start

As far as I'm concerned if everyone accepted that at the start, the GM's justification or lack thereof is irrelevant. It doesn't make any difference what the GM's reason is, if everyone was happy at the start of the game with the notion that there'll be no PrC's, there's no problem.

Someone changing their mind later on and deciding maybe they would like one has missed the boat to raise objections. Though it's not clear whether this is the case here.

[Rachel Lorelei]

You didn't parse the second part of that statement:

No, see, eveyrone can agree that the DM makes the rules; that doesn't mean that any rule the DM makes is *reasonable*.

[Kiero]

No, see, eveyrone can agree that the DM makes the rules; that doesn't mean that any rule the DM makes is *reasonable*.

Again, you missed the point. Provided everyone bought into those rule changes at the start. Not simply the general idea that the GM makes the rules. That was why I said "bought into" - that implies an informed consent to a specific thing.

[Rachel Lorelei]

"The DM makes the rules, provided everyone bought into that"... parsing the phrase, "that" is "the DM making the rules". I agree with what you meant, then, but that's not the first thing one gets out of it.

[Kiero]

"The DM makes the rules, provided everyone bought into that"... parsing the phrase, "that" is "the DM making the rules". I agree with what you meant, then, but that's not the first thing one gets out of it.

Well, what I said originally wasn't "the rules"; I said "what's in and out of their game".

[Ranek the Bold]

I have played in several games, and have had DM's from both ends of the spectrum. Currently, I have 1 that lets anything by and 1 that requires you to pass the prestige class by him prior to trying to take it and starting an argument. I do agree that there are way too many prestige classes( every new source book has 5 or more), but there does need to be a way to work these in. The other group, we have some folks with a lot of time on their hands, and they come up with class combinations that slow down play.
It also sounds like the DM is not very experienced. I would suggest that y'all find an experinced group, and play and learn. Remember-this is for fun

[Kiero]

It also sounds like the DM is not very experienced. I would suggest that y'all find an experinced group, and play and learn. Remember-this is for fun

I don't know that is necessarily the case; they may just have certain preferences. Since ultimately that's what a lot of this comes down to.

[Fhaolan]

Wait... this almost makes sense. Keeping multiclass Exp even? This sounds like the DM using rulebooks from other editions. A 1st or 2nd edition DMG with a 3rd edition PHB might end up with this kind of confusion.

[Fawsto]

The question is: The entire group feels the same as you? If yes, you a have a powerful weapon at your service, my friend. Use it wisely.

[Dausuul]

1 aboleth or beholder should be wiping out the entire party (at that level) much less multiples of these beasties.

Aboleths are CR 7. Three aboleths versus 7-8 PCs at level 5 should be essentially an even fight, tilting slightly in favor of the PCs. Expect several people in negative hit points and possibly a couple kills, but the PCs ought to have a good chance to win.

Don't know offhand what the CR is on elder beholders, but when the party hits level 6, they should be able to take on stuff as high as CR 11-12.

[Jannex]

Aboleths are CR 7. Three aboleths versus 7-8 PCs at level 5 should be essentially an even fight, tilting slightly in favor of the PCs. Expect several people in negative hit points and possibly a couple kills, but the PCs ought to have a good chance to win.

Don't know offhand what the CR is on elder beholders, but when the party hits level 6, they should be able to take on stuff as high as CR 11-12.

Somehow that seems off to me. Doubling the number of PCs (since a CR-appropriate encounter assumes 4 PCs) doesn't mean you can double the CR and expect the PCs to be able to handle it. Having more PCs doesn't increase any individual character's BAB, or save DCs, or AC. It just means that there are more PCs around to flail ineffectually and be smashed by an overcalibrated encounter. If none of the PCs can make contact with a weapon except on a natural 20, it doesn't matter if there are eight, or eighteen of them.

If I remember correctly, your average, run-of-the-mill beholder is CR13 or so. An *elder* beholder is presumably even higher. NOT something a group of level 5 or 6 PCs can handle. They stand little to no chance of making the saves against the beholder's eye-rays, and outmaneuvering it or getting close enough to get in a solid hit (assuming they can beat its AC) is going to be a problem. Handling encounter calibration this way means trouble--for the PCs.

[Ulzgoroth]

Doubling the number of PCs does mean you can pump the CR up by two (the actual effect of doubling the opposition), but you have to do it carefully. Twice as many PCs vs. twice as many enemies near or below CR-level parity is good. Twice as many PCs vs. one enemy two CR higher may not be for the reasons Jannex describes. A CR X monster can reasonably have abilities that are impossible to cope with below about level X-2.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

If I remember correctly, your average, run-of-the-mill beholder is CR13 or so. An *elder* beholder is presumably even higher.

Elder Orbs have advanced racial HD (at least enough to make them huge, 6+) and at least 6 levels of sorcerer.

[Diggorian]

Assuming Esper's DM isnt using an older version for stats, three aboleths vs eight level 5's works out to four level 7s vs CR 10; extreme but not necesarily TPK as Dausuul estimates. If the DM is unexperienced I could easily see him making them fight foolishly, flopping on land for melee as opposed to using their abilities at a distance to confuse or lure the party into the water. Their survival against an Elder beholder infers this may be the case.

Like others, I'd advise talking one on one with the DM about your problems; if that doesnt work, bring in the whole group.