Monk six limbs

[Dyslexic]

We have a monk with a power. He can grows four normal libs (without claws), as free action.
Can he make a full attack with the unarmed strike and then an attack with each additional limb? And can take the multiweapon fighting obtaining an extra attack with each limb?

Thank you very much. And sorry for my English

[weckar]

It depends on whether those limbs explicitly give him extra natural attacks of a type (most likely slam).

Do you have the text of this ability available for perusal?

[Dyslexic]

Manifold Flesh-Monster Armory
Prerequisite: -

Who can say what form the Monster has, if any? What one can be certain of is that, regardless of the number of deadly implements that its horrific body bristles with – typhoons of razor-sharp teeth, claws that reap whole nations in their wake, titanic clusters of all-too-human fists that snap bones and pound flesh until it weeps its deepest blood – it is only angry that it does not have more.

You gain Multiweapon Fighting as a bonus feat. (1 + 1 per six class levels) additional limbs grow from your body. Their appearance - whether arm, tentacle, claw, or something more exotic, like a fleshy barbed scythe or a whirlwind of gristle and sharpened bone - is up to your discretion, and each one may deal your choice of either slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage. They are not considered natural weapons, but may be used to make unarmed attacks as if they were hands, via Multiweapon Fighting.

You may remake the appearance and damage type of your extra limbs as a swift action. If you are in a Rage when you remake them, you may also make a melee attack as part of the same swift action, as your newly formed limbs whip around in the throes of their birth.

[Jormengand]

Monks cannot use multiweapon fighting as a monk's unarmed strike has nothing to do with their hands, and "There is no such thing as an offhand attack for a monk fighting unarmed".

The text of the special ability is self-contradictory, as an unarmed strike is a natural weapon, they aren't natural weapons, and they are unarmed strikes. Basically, the ability is badly written.

In general, a creature only has one unarmed strike, and they are always armed with it no matter how many hands they have or how many of those hands are full. Basically, the ability is pretty much useless - at best, it lets you change the damage type of your unarmed strike.

I imagine the intention of the ability is that you should be able to use multiweapon fighting on them, though.

[Dyslexic]

Sure?
Can you tell me how is possible? Thanks

[Seppo87]

FAQs say explicitly that monks are allowed to TWF with their unarmed strike alone, even during a flurry.


Multiweapon Fighting replaces TWF for creatures with extra limbs.

This works.

[Darrin]

Sure?
Can you tell me how is possible? Thanks

The specific rules on how unarmed strikes interact with natural attacks, iterative attacks, and offhand attacks are murky and not well explained.

As far as we can determine, most of the rules tend to treat unarmed strikes as a manufactured weapon for the purposes of determining the number of attacks, but a natural weapon for the purposes of feats, damage, and spell effects.

When it comes to using unarmed strikes as an offhand weapon, this is explicitly allowed by the rules. However, when it comes to using unarmed strikes as both your primary and offhand weapon, the rules aren't clear at all, and monks have the additional burden of that stupid "no such thing" comment that makes no frickin' sense from a mechanics standpoint.

There are two schools of thought when it comes to whether unarmed strikes count as a single striking surface or multiple striking surfaces. Some people allow unarmed strikes to be both primary and offhand attacks at the same time (this is how it works in Pathfinder). Some don't and insist on treating unarmed strike as a single weapon. It's not particularly overpowering one way or the other, so whatever your group decides should be fine as long as they are consistent.

As far as your six-armed monk goes, none of this is really relevant, because having extra arms doesn't give you additional unarmed strikes from a rules perspective. Think of it as a more abstract kind of weapon... could be an elbow, knee, headbutt, shoulder check, etc., that you can throw into your attack routine as either your primary weapon or as an offhand weapon. Since unarmed strikes don't really involve the hands, your six arms aren't really involved at this point.

Now, put weapons in those six arms, such as six kama, and you can still use your unarmed strikes as your primary weapon, and use Multi-Weapon Fighting to get six offhand attacks. Let's say your monk has a BAB of +7. There's a -2 penalty for using the TWF/MWF rules, so your attack routine would look something like:

Three iterative attacks with your primary weapon:
+5 unarmed strike/+0 unarmed strike

Six offhand attacks:
+5 kama#1/+5 kama#2/+5 kama#3/+5 kama#4/+5 kama#5/+5 kama#6

Secondary natural attacks, such as bites or slams:
+2 bite/+2 slam/etc. (-5 secondary penalty, TWF/MWF penalties do not apply)

The rules say you have to make these attacks in descending order from highest BAB to lowest, so all together it would look something like:

+5 unarmed strike/+5 kama#1/+5 kama#2/+5 kama#3/+5 kama#4/+5 kama#5/+5 kama#6/+2 bite/+2 slam/+0 unarmed strike.

If you want to add Flurry of Blows... it's not clear from the rules that you can mix this ability with TWF/MWF, but the FAQ seems to think this is possible. You'd get an additional unarmed strike but may take a penalty on all your attacks that round. Assuming a 10th level monk, the penalty is zero, so your attack routine might look like:

+5 unarmed strike/+5 unarmed strike/+5 kama#1/+5 kama#2/+5 kama#3/+5 kama#4/+5 kama#5/+5 kama#6/+2 bite/+2 slam/+0 unarmed strike

If you add Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMultiweaponFighting), then you get 12 offhand kama attacks. If you add Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greaterMultiweaponFighting), then you get 18 offhand kama attacks.

[Jormengand]

FAQs are rules interpretations, not the actual rules themselves. The rules take precedence when the two contradict each other, or even when they don't.

[Dyslexic]

Ok, I have founded the Faq. But I have a doubt: if the monk have 4 additional limbs, he can make his full attack with unarmed strike, and 6 attack with the hands. Right?
And if he have the improved multiweapon fighting, he can do 12 attack with his hands, in addition to the normals unarmed strike depending from the BAB. Correct?

Thank you!

Edit: I will use the Faq, I think, but I'm interested to the raw too.

[Rothgar Ironmit]

I recently had to do a ton of research for multi-limb fighting and from all thw stuff I found you need BOTH Two-weapon fighting then you take multi-weapon fighting in order for it to work but maybe im wrong

[Hiro Quester]

You can make extra attacks with your other "natural weapons" like an animal's claws. A humanoid without such weapons uses unarmed strikes. But adding a punch on top of your normal attack routine brings penalties ( since it's a light weapon, -4 to all primary attacks, and -8 to that extra attack).

RAW you use your monk UAS as iterative attacks, then you can make secondary attacks with other natural weapons at -5. I play a druid17/monk1 who wild shapes. In tiger wildshape, I get 3 UASs, then claw claw bite as secondary attacks.

It sounds like the monk needs to take MWF to reduce those penalties, to be able to make UASs as iterative attacks at -2 (kicks, elbow strikes, headbutts--don't use the fists or you can't use them again as secondary attacks) then all natural weapon punches as secondary attacks at -2.

Having your full flurry of blows plus these extra limbs will be a devastating attack, if you can hit. But that's a lot of rolling; be prepared to roll all those dice before your turn so you don't slow the game up.

EDIT:

I recently had to do a ton of research for multi-limb fighting and from all thw stuff I found you need BOTH Two-weapon fighting then you take multi-weapon fighting in order for it to work but maybe im wrong

No you don't. MWF is TWF for creatures with 3 or more hands. TWF is not a prerequisite.


FURTHER EDIT:
And if you take IMWF, those next extra attacks are at -5. Starts to become flurry of misses at about that stage, due to Monk's weak BAB.

This character is one that would benefit hugely from an amulet of mighty fists. Expensive, but its bonus adds to every natural weapon, including UASs.

[Necroticplague]

As I pointed out to the person who made that ability, having more hands doesn't give you more unarmed strikes. That's like TWFing your greatsword with the same greatsword on the justification that it's in both your main hand and off hand. Thus, that part of the ability just plain doesn't work. The FAQ isn't rules, so that is irrelevant.

However, assuming you decide to go that way, than yes, as to the question of all the attacks you can make. Might wanna get Speed on them (either through a hilariously expensive amulet of natural weapons, or through Runescarres Violence Assimulation) to add 7 more into the mix.

[Darrin]

I recently had to do a ton of research for multi-limb fighting and from all thw stuff I found you need BOTH Two-weapon fighting then you take multi-weapon fighting in order for it to work but maybe im wrong

No. If MWF required TWF, then it would list it as a prereq. The text from the Monster Manual: "This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms."

"Replace" means you no longer have TWF. However, the rules don't really say if this replacement is instantaneous or when exactly it happens. Presumably it happens as soon as you have three or more hands. For all practical purposes, just treat MWF the same as TWF for any feat/ability that requires TWF.

One thing you'll want to be careful about, though... the 3.5 SRD updated Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting and Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting, but they left the 3.0 prereqs intact. This means the prereqs are different than Improved TWF and Greater TWF. So you'll have to discuss with your DM how exactly these MWF feats replace their TWF counterparts. Most DMs will just allow them to swap whenever you get one or the other, but some of the more literal-minded DMs may require you to adhere to the higher Dex and BAB requirements for Improved/Greater MWF.