Reworking Rangers

[TheUser]

Kept trying to make an iconic Ranger wanting to be able to make what I envisioned as a potent and stealthy woodsman and kept going back to Rogues and Bards just to do the thing same job better. I spent the better part of last night typing up a rework to address this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iNXNzX1Nwd2lsSlk/view

[Gwendol]

It's a solid piece of work. The spell list is nice, but I notice you've kept the way rangers have to choose spells (instead of that of the paladin). Personally I don't like the awareness while sleeping ability, but maybe it's cool?

[TheUser]

Personally I don't like the awareness while sleeping ability, but maybe it's cool?

EDIT: Thank you for reading and giving your feedback

It's funny but we are actually listening to our surroundings when we sleep. Our brains are semi active and ready for danger to wake us when **** goes wrong. For instance when someone you know calls out your name, this is way more likely to wake you than some random background noise we associate with our immediate surroundings.

When I go to sleep at home there are loads of noises that don't wake me or stir me; these are the ones that I am used to hearing while I sleep, however, if one of these noises is absent when I am sleeping at home it's woken me up. Specifically the hum of my apartment that is accompanied by having running electricity has actually stirred me from sleep when the power goes out in the middle of the night; my brain instinctively knows something is wrong and that I need to be awake to anticipate problems like: sealing my freezer/fridge etc. I associate the change in noises of the wilds to be part of primeval awareness; this can stir a ranger from wakefulness if they feel they are not properly hidden. Maybe reduce the radius to 1 mile when sleeping?

EDIT 2: I have updated the rework to include a reduction in radius to 1 mile while sleeping; this seems better for both a sleeping ranger who might want to avoid breaking their rest unless something gets close, and maintaining better elements of realism.

[clash]

I love the sniper idea with the Stalker and precision strike but it needs to be reworked as it opens up multiclassing abuse with rogue. It is also slightly confusing as it requires a bonus action and a special attack action so it may need to be reworked in that regard as well. I might suggest a straight dmg bonus like sneak attack, instead.

[TheUser]

I love the sniper idea with the Stalker and precision strike but it needs to be reworked as it opens up multiclassing abuse with rogue. It is also slightly confusing as it requires a bonus action and a special attack action so it may need to be reworked in that regard as well. I might suggest a straight dmg bonus like sneak attack, instead.

EDIT: INCOMING CHANGES TO PRECISION STRIKE THAT WILL TONE DOWN ABILITY TO CONSISTENTLY CRIT

While I somewhat agree that the multi-classing abuse potential for Rogues is pretty monstrous it actually doesn't compare to a full Rogue: If you go 7 levels in Ranger and then start to multi-class into Rogue a PC must go all the way to level 14 to start to overtake a pure rogue's damage on their turn (A crit with a bow for 2d8+Dex + 8d6 Sneak attack crit dice) the combined cost of an ASI and the 7 level investment might be merited? Additionally you cannot move afterwards and as such cannot chase someone down the same way a rogue can (nor can you abuse other AoO's as hard as a pure Rogue from things like Sentinel, Mage Slayer or an Allied Battlemaster's "Commanding Strike"). You must also be hidden to get the critical strike in this way unlike pure sneak attack dice which simply require you not to be at disadvantage and have an enemy next to them. A rogue in melee can also use their bonus action to attempt another attack to try and get the damage even if they miss with advantage.

A level 15 Rogue in melee can do almost as much damage on their turn without consuming their bonus action and still use their AoO to Sneak attack AGAIN. The benefits of staying hidden ultimately cost damage in this case (Weapon + 8d6 + Dex twice > 2d8 + Dex + 8d6 once). As soon as you start accounting for the fact that Rogues can still crit on a die roll or your allies can be throwing out Paralyze or Assassin Crits the Rogue stomps this multiclass combo in damage.

[Hudsonian]

I believe that the sniper idea is actually pretty cool. But since the way it is stated EVERY precision shot is a critical (because you have to be hidden to do it and would have advantage), I would prefer it to say, "If both dice would hit the target, the attack is counted as a critical hit."

I also think that the perception check lines could be reworked... "after the attack, the target may make a Wisdom (perception) check vs. a new Dexterity (Stealth) check by the stalker"
or something like that. This would clarify that there is a new stealth check every round and that the target creature gets a free perception check.


Overall: I really like this. I feel like it gives a lot of room for the DM to capitalize or gimp without much effort. I'm a little worried that it is a little too easy to adjust the favored enemy... maybe require a short rest? Seems an awful lot like permanent hunters mark... starting at lvl 1. this would definitely be my new favorite dip.

[Gwendol]

EDIT: Thank you for reading and giving your feedback

It's funny but we are actually listening to our surroundings when we sleep. Our brains are semi active and ready for danger to wake us when **** goes wrong. For instance when someone you know calls out your name, this is way more likely to wake you than some random background noise we associate with our immediate surroundings.

When I go to sleep at home there are loads of noises that don't wake me or stir me; these are the ones that I am used to hearing while I sleep, however, if one of these noises is absent when I am sleeping at home it's woken me up. Specifically the hum of my apartment that is accompanied by having running electricity has actually stirred me from sleep when the power goes out in the middle of the night; my brain instinctively knows something is wrong and that I need to be awake to anticipate problems like: sealing my freezer/fridge etc. I associate the change in noises of the wilds to be part of primeval awareness; this can stir a ranger from wakefulness if they feel they are not properly hidden. Maybe reduce the radius to 1 mile when sleeping?

EDIT 2: I have updated the rework to include a reduction in radius to 1 mile while sleeping; this seems better for both a sleeping ranger who might want to avoid breaking their rest unless something gets close, and maintaining better elements of realism.

It's more of a meta analysis of the ability. I agree that having the ranger a "light sleeper" fits thematically.

[TheUser]

I believe that the sniper idea is actually pretty cool. But since the way it is stated EVERY precision shot is a critical (because you have to be hidden to do it and would have advantage), I would prefer it to say, "If both dice would hit the target, the attack is counted as a critical hit."

I also think that the perception check lines could be reworked... "after the attack, the target may make a Wisdom (perception) check vs. a new Dexterity (Stealth) check by the stalker"
or something like that. This would clarify that there is a new stealth check every round and that the target creature gets a free perception check.

Amazing feedback, I will probably implement it shortly.
EDIT: Like so ****ing incredible.

[Hudsonian]

Also, I'm pretty sure you overdid the Beast master. He now basically get's the "Extra Attack" feature at level 3. Many of the possible companions do at least 1d6 damage. Then giving Bestial Fury on top of bonus action attack allows for 4 attacks EVERY TURN. while it is not as powerful as 4 attacks as a fighter, you get it at level 11 instead of 17.

At level 7 your animal companion is very possibly harder to kill than the party wizard with more AC and Health. possibly with flyby. Then share a stoneskin or Hunters Mark and it gets worse.

[TheUser]

Also, I'm pretty sure you overdid the Beast master. He now basically get's the "Extra Attack" Two-Weapon Fighting bonus action attack feature at level 3. Many of the possible companions do at least 1d6 damage. Then giving Bestial Fury on top of bonus action attack allows for 4 attacks EVERY TURN. while it is not as powerful as 4 attacks as a fighter, you get it at level 11 instead of 17.

At level 7 your animal companion is very possibly harder to kill than the party wizard with more AC and Health. possibly with flyby. Then share a stoneskin or Hunters Mark and it gets worse.

Fixed that for you.

Also you think having a bear companion wearing barding and armor being harder to kill than a Wizard is somehow unrealistic?

[Sir cryosin]

What program are you using to make the pictures and the background of the pages?

[TheUser]

What program are you using to make the pictures and the background of the pages?

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/

[Hudsonian]

Also you think having a bear companion wearing barding and armor being harder to kill than a Wizard is somehow unrealistic?

As far as the extra attack thing goes... it's a little more complicated than that, because it is the extra attack where one can be at range, or you can have a shield. And you can have both Archery and TWF fighting styles simultaneously. And TWF requires your main action to also be an attack. Lot's of differences. But I can see your point that it may not be AS overpowered as I thought at first.

Second: No, I don't think it is unrealistic... But I do think that mechanically it might be a bit much when added on top of bonus action beastial fury with pack tactics or flyby. But really, I don't think it's that big of a problem itself. I can definitely see how the companion would get a lot more battle action if it wasn't quite so frail.

[TheUser]

Overall: I really like this. I feel like it gives a lot of room for the DM to capitalize or gimp without much effort. I'm a little worried that it is a little too easy to adjust the favored enemy... maybe require a short rest? Seems an awful lot like permanent hunters mark... starting at lvl 1. this would definitely be my new favorite dip.

I got so caught up in your first amazing suggestion I didn't even register this poignant criticism. I think that because this iteration of Favored Enemy relies on Wisdom to be effective it is only an effective level dip for Monk, Druids, Clerics and maybe Wisdom heavy Rogues and Fighters which I am totally fine with (remember that it is once per turn).

[Sir cryosin]

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/

How do you doctor the pictures to have that no border cloud effect.I just stared playing around with homebrewery. And it was rough to figure out I'm not a code writer or to tec savvy. But I got two homebrewed classes made up using it.

[TheUser]

How do you doctor the pictures to have that no border cloud effect.I just stared playing around with homebrewery. And it was rough to figure out I'm not a code writer or to tec savvy. But I got two homebrewed classes made up using it.

The source images are png's with those parts of the image set as transparent. You can even set transparency in paint when selecting an image using selection tool.

[Hudsonian]

did you remove the advantage on knowledge/history/nature checks about your favored enemy?

either way, I know my cleric would have LOVED getting to add +4 to ALL of his attack rolls. (maybe there should be a provision that you needed to declare before the roll? like GWM? That way it provides the thrill of making that choice for the player.)

Still, I really want to play the stalker character. Seems really cool. I feel like it is an upgraded version of the "Scout" that was UA a while back.

[TheUser]

did you remove the advantage on knowledge/history/nature checks about your favored enemy?

either way, I know my cleric would have LOVED getting to add +4 to ALL of his attack rolls. (maybe there should be a provision that you needed to declare before the roll? like GWM? That way it provides the thrill of making that choice for the player.)

Still, I really want to play the stalker character. Seems really cool. I feel like it is an upgraded version of the "Scout" that was UA a while back.

God I love this guy. He's so ****ing thorough. I actually meant to keep the advantage on intelligence checks and drop the survival checks (keeping them instead for the favored terrain replacement), it's been updated.

You only get to add Wisdom Mod to ONE attack or damage roll once per turn so I guess it'd be strong for a Cleric. I think that Ranger as a multi-class -should- be strong. Multi-classing has a huge opportunity cost on getting features like extra attack, higher level spells, or ASI's/Feats at an appropriate level. Look at Rogue; you get 1d6 more damage, a skill proficiency, two double proficiencies and a new language; very worthwhile MC comparison if you ask me.

EDIT: If you could move the Wis Mod addition to a different level where would you put it? Level 4/5? I moved it to level 6 since this parallels the improvement it used to gain at level 6 and acts the same way a Paladin gains their Aura of Protection

As for the stalker I really felt like this particular woodsy sniper character was missing from the Ranger and needed implemented. It seems like it'd be super cool as a PC, an NPC or even a BBEG who is tracking down the party. Your feedback has been invaluable, maybe we can playtest it in a roll20 session or something.

[Ascendant]

First of all, I like this rework very much, and will be analyzing it more as the thread continues. I'd like to collaborate by adding an idea I've been playing with:

I don't know how popular an idea this is, but it works off of making the Hunter's Mark spell a class ability, combining it with favored enemy. I think it works very well with the temporary favored enemy ability, of which I am a fan.
Ideas in the works/options are in [], notes are in ()
My proposal (still a work in progress):

Hunter's Mark
(gained at level 1?, or 2 w/ spellcasting?)

When you make successful weapon attack against a single target [use a bonus action?] you can make a Wisdom(survival) check against the enemy's AC (with advantage for favored enemies) [same penalties for hits or sight should apply. maybe use perception?].
Upon a successful check, you apply a Hunter's Mark to that enemy. Being marked lasts for at most 1 hour(?), only one enemy can be marked at a time, and the effect can be ended at any time. You have advantage on Perception and Survival checks to spot or track that enemy (same benefits from hunter's mark).
In addition, all subsequent weapon attacks [excluding spells, and possibly excluding AoE or multi-hit attacks] successfully made against the Marked target deal an additional 1d4 of damage of that weapon type. This damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4), 11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4). [same scaling as cantrips. alternatively, you could do something like "add wis-mod at X level] (not sure how this works with stalker's 'mini crit' function).
The benefits of this spell extend to the Ranger's beast companion. (maybe put a requirement on that? BM only, or at a certain level) [this spell can be used a number of time per long rest equal to the ranger's Wis mod].

It's not perfect, but it's pretty good for a prototype.

Things to work on:
Aquisition: should applying it be a bonus action? or for free? I want to discourage swapping it around too quickly, favoring the idea of focus fighting, or specific target hunting. This coincides with...
Cost: should the usage be limited? I'm starting to think so, given how easy it is to apply, but the benefits aren't huge, so...
Important Bits aka TL:DR direct damage that works with wisdom, blurring the lines (as I think a ranger should) between martial and magic.
Ability that works with favored enemy, but doesn't depend on it.
Keep Hunter's Mark as a class ability, freeing up concentration for a slightly lower, scaling benefit.

Thoughts? Let me know if it's unclear.

[Hudsonian]

not actually a fan of the not spell Hunters mark... It seems like taking something that is actually very well balanced as is, and making it more complicated.

[TheProfessor85]

Bravo, good work.

[EvilAnagram]

Honestly, if you make Hunter's Mark a class feature that functions in a manner similar to Channel Divinity, you completely fix the class. The ability to use HM with other Ranger Spells would give them fantastic DPR while maintaining solid utility.

[TheUser]

Honestly, if you make Hunter's Mark a class feature that functions in a manner similar to Channel Divinity, you completely fix the class. The ability to use HM with other Ranger Spells would give them fantastic DPR while maintaining solid utility.

This favors Dual-Wielding too much. It would stagnate diversity amongst rangers by making one type of weapon out perform all the others until swift quiver becomes available. I think that WotC definitely grappled with this idea during development and decided against it for exactly this reason. By making it cost a bonus action and concentration it balances this out and allows for other concentration spells to be used with other weapon styles.

Rangers attacking and marking one target makes sense as a spell, not as a baseline feature because it's not iconic or definitive of their role in lore.

[Ascendant]

Simplified Hunter's Mark as a class feature:
(with some issues addressed)


No longer a spell, now class feature, usable Wis-mod times per day
Added on a hit, on a bonus action, does not require concentration
Application is made by a wisdom, possibly survival check against AC
All effects are the same, but now the damage die is a d4 which (slowly) scales with level

It's still a work in progress, and everything else is just rhetoric and nuances.

It could easily be made to only work once per turn (or round) to avoid favoring two-weapon fighting, but I don't think it needs it.
It should definitely be allowed to work with the animal companion.

Personally, I think that requiring both a bonus action and concentration gimps the ranger's flexibility quite a lot. The ranger suffers from too many options, and not enough time to implement them per turn.

I think it makes sense for a ranger, in the idea that rangers can analyze enemy weaknesses, or track down specific targets.

I think the ability is appropriate, but that's just me. I have a certain idea of what a Ranger is, but that's just a matter of opinion.


I realize that this idea isn't quite in line with your (very good) re-work, so I won't argue it too much, but I still like it.

I quite like the favored enemy temporary additions, which helps the Ranger's versatility enormously. Would allowing favored enemy to work with Primeval Awareness be too much? It seems thematically appropriate, and would provide a nice synergy between the two.

A word about the Animal's help ability: I would only make it usable as a bonus action for the ranger itself, requiring a full action to help anyone else. Otherwise I fear it will go the way of the infamous warlock-familiar, constantly granting free advantage.

[EvilAnagram]

This favors Dual-Wielding too much. It would stagnate diversity amongst rangers by making one type of weapon out perform all the others until swift quiver becomes available. I think that WotC definitely grappled with this idea during development and decided against it for exactly this reason. By making it cost a bonus action and concentration it balances this out and allows for other concentration spells to be used with other weapon styles.

Rangers attacking and marking one target makes sense as a spell, not as a baseline feature because it's not iconic or definitive of their role in lore.

Honestly, I thought it would favor archers by allowing them to use HM with Hail of Thorns or Conjure Volley. I don't see how removing Concentration would make it favor Dual-Wielding any more than it does already.


Wis mod/day.
You use your bonus action to mark a creature as your prey.
When you hit the creature with an attack, you deal 1d6 extra damage.
You know the direction and position of the creature with relation to you for the next hour.


Boom. It's fixed. Melee Rangers don't have to worry about losing concentration, and melee and ranged archers both get to use spells while maintaining their Hunter's Mark. Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer abilities still provide solid utility, as do your extra skill, spells, and archetype features.

I honestly don't see a reason to make it any more complicated than that. Maybe make HM a short rest ability rather than Wis mod/day.

That said, the Ranger is pretty far from broken as it is. I've played a Dex Beast Master through a whole campaign, and I'm playing a Goliath Str Hunter now, and at no point did I lack in either damage or utility.

[TheUser]

Kept trying to make an iconic Ranger wanting to be able to make what I envisioned as a potent and stealthy woodsman and kept going back to Rogues and Bards just to do the thing same job better. I spent the better part of last night typing up a rework to address this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iNXNzX1Nwd2lsSlk/view

I have since applied many updates to the ranger rework; specifically I have undone the ability for beast masters to have their beast companion attack with a bonus action but given the companion more resilience and options for healing.