Uncanny Dodge vs Path of War maneuvers

[Hogsy]

Would an opponent who has uncanny dodge be caught flat-footed against maneuvers that deem it so? I would argue yes, since the maneuver is the specific rule that trumps the general Uncanny Dodge one. There may have been a clarification somewhere though that I may have missed. Thanks in advance!

[Fouredged Sword]

Would an opponent who has uncanny dodge be caught flat-footed against maneuvers that deem it so? I would argue yes, since the maneuver is the specific rule that trumps the general Uncanny Dodge one. There may have been a clarification somewhere though that I may have missed. Thanks in advance!


Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

A person with Uncanny dodge can be caught flat footed. They simply retain their dex to AC while flat footed. The strike that renders them flat footed would function but the character would not lose their dex to AC despite being flat footed.

[Erit]

A person with Uncanny dodge can be caught flat footed. They simply retain their dex to AC while flat footed. The strike that renders them flat footed would function but the character would not lose their dex to AC despite being flat footed.

This. The big difference is that they lose things like dodge bonuses and you can apply flat-footed-exclusive things like sudden strike if'n you've got it. Though why you have sudden strike and not plain old SA is beyond me.

[Zanos]

This. The big difference is that they lose things like dodge bonuses and you can apply flat-footed-exclusive things like sudden strike if'n you've got it. Though why you have sudden strike and not plain old SA is beyond me.
If you retain your dex bonus to AC, you don't lose your dodge bonuses, and can't be sneak attacked by losing your dex to AC, since you can't lose your dex to AC.

[TheIronGolem]

Guys - this is Pathfinder. In PF, Uncanny Dodge explicitly says you cannot be caught flat-footed:


Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.


At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to armor class if immobilized. A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to armor class if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.

The "specific trumps general" rule wouldn't make the maneuver overcome Uncanny Dodge, for the same reason that it wouldn't make a spell that does fire damage bypass fire immunity.

That said, some maneuvers don't cause the target to be flat-footed, but instead allow you to make an attack roll against the target's flat-footed AC. Those, I believe, would bypass Uncanny Dodge.

[Sayt]

A person with Uncanny dodge can be caught flat footed. They simply retain their dex to AC while flat footed. The strike that renders them flat footed would function but the character would not lose their dex to AC despite being flat footed.

Actually, the Pathfinder version of uncanny dodge (relevant because PoW) explicitly states that the rogue cannot be caught flat footed.

Arguably, the PoW maneuvers force, not catch, you flatfooted, but that seems tenuous.

[Erit]

Arguably, the PoW maneuvers force, not catch, you flatfooted, but that seems tenuous.

Less tenuous is saying the maneuvers are modified feints, which the quotes helpfully provided by TheIronGolem state can catch even the uncanniest of dodgers flat-footed.

[TheIronGolem]

Less tenuous is saying the maneuvers are modified feints, which the quotes helpfully provided by TheIronGolem state can catch even the uncanniest of dodgers flat-footed.

No, I'd say calling a martial maneuver any kind of feint - absent any language in the maneuver's rule text that designates it as such - is pretty darn tenuous. A feint is a articular type of action, a maneuver is a different type of action.

I think there are a couple of maneuvers that grant a free feint as part of their action, but that's a different beast.

[Powerdork]

No, I'd say calling a martial maneuver any kind of feint - absent any language in the maneuver's rule text that designates it as such - is pretty darn tenuous. A feint is a articular type of action, a maneuver is a different type of action.

Alright, but you're ignoring the narrative cause of the effect, either "an attack delivered when the target doesn't expect it" or "an attack delivered when the target is overcompensating for something else". Feinting is the latter, while most of the strikes in the first book are the former. It really should be dealt with case-by-case.

[TheIronGolem]

Alright, but you're ignoring the narrative cause of the effect, either "an attack delivered when the target doesn't expect it" or "an attack delivered when the target is overcompensating for something else". Feinting is the latter, while most of the strikes in the first book are the former. It really should be dealt with case-by-case.

It's already dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Some maneuvers treat the target as flat-footed (which UD protects against), others dispense with flat-footing and straight up deny the target their DEX bonus (which UD does nothing about). Those latter maneuvers are the ones that emulate a feint.

Dreamscarred Press aren't sloppy with their designs. They designed some of these maneuvers to inflict flat-footed status and others to attack flat-footed AC. I should think that speaks to their intent as to how each maneuver is intended to interact with things like Uncanny Dodge.

[Hogsy]

It's already dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Some maneuvers treat the target as flat-footed (which UD protects against), others dispense with flat-footing and straight up deny the target their DEX bonus (which UD does nothing about). Those latter maneuvers are the ones that emulate a feint.

Dreamscarred Press aren't sloppy with their designs. They designed some of these maneuvers to inflict flat-footed status and others to attack flat-footed AC. I should think that speaks to their intent as to how each maneuver is intended to interact with things like Uncanny Dodge.

Alright, thanks a lot for your input for it has been rather useful. Something off-topic now, would a Magus be able to spellstrike at the same time they would be initiating a maneuver that explicitly said "you make a melee attack" ?

"At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."


Would he be able to use spell combat with a maneuver that allowed him to make a full attack since Spell Combat is kind of like two-weapon fighting?

[Powerdork]

Something off-topic now, would a Magus be able to spellstrike at the same time they would be initiating a maneuver that explicitly said "you make a melee attack" ?

"At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."


Would he be able to use spell combat with a maneuver that allowed him to make a full attack since Spell Combat is kind of like two-weapon fighting?

Unfortunately, unless you're casting the spell with a casting time of "1 strike" or initiating a maneuver with an initiation time of "1 standard action used to cast a spell", or some other such weirdness, you can't deliver a spellstrike as part of a strike. You cast the spell and immediately attack with it, or you perform the strike and have no time to cast the spell in the middle of it.
Perhaps you could get away with a quickened spell used to spellstrike as part of a strike? It's shaky, though.


As for spell combat, it is not any time you perform a full-attack. The part of the ability that tells you how to activate it says "as a full-round action, the magus can [do things]", which means he's not using that full-round action to initiate a maneuver.

[Tuvarkz]

I think it depends on the wording: "Attack the target flat-footed" or "catches the target flat-footed" or "Flat-foot the target" and similar wording should fail against uncanny dodge. "Make an attack roll against the target's flat-footed AC" should eliminate the Dexterity bonus to AC, dodge bonuses, and etc. imo

[Hogsy]

Unfortunately, unless you're casting the spell with a casting time of "1 strike" or initiating a maneuver with an initiation time of "1 standard action used to cast a spell", or some other such weirdness, you can't deliver a spellstrike as part of a strike. You cast the spell and immediately attack with it, or you perform the strike and have no time to cast the spell in the middle of it.
Perhaps you could get away with a quickened spell used to spellstrike as part of a strike? It's shaky, though.


As for spell combat, it is not any time you perform a full-attack. The part of the ability that tells you how to activate it says "as a full-round action, the magus can [do things]", which means he's not using that full-round action to initiate a maneuver.

I see, the melee attack is mearly the means you're using to deliver the spell you just cast. If you are also initiating a maneuver, then there is no time to cast the spell. Perhaps a quickened spell could work though, expending your swift action to cast, and then using the standard for the maneuver which will also include a spell with it if it is a melee attack. Thanks a lot for clearing that up.

[Vortenger]

It's already dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Some maneuvers treat the target as flat-footed (which UD protects against), others dispense with flat-footing and straight up deny the target their DEX bonus (which UD does nothing about). Those latter maneuvers are the ones that emulate a feint.

Dreamscarred Press aren't sloppy with their designs. They designed some of these maneuvers to inflict flat-footed status and others to attack flat-footed AC. I should think that speaks to their intent as to how each maneuver is intended to interact with things like Uncanny Dodge.

Worded beautifully.