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Durzan
2016-09-09, 03:47 AM
The Bloody Sickle is a 10 Level Prestige class that I created for a player who loves fighting with Scythes. The class represents an expert fighter with a pole-arm speciality, and is supposed to have a fighting style loosely based off of Ruby Rose's fighting style from RWBY; minus recoil, of course.

Some of the abilities were adapted as variants of monk abilities.

Either way, here it is:

Bloody Sickle

Requirements:

Base Attack: +5
Skills: Tumble 4, Jump 4
Abilities: Str. 13+, Dexterity 13+, Int. 13+
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, and Combat Expertise.
Special: Proficiency with a Scythe, Quarterstaff, or Polearm



Class Features:





Level


BAB


Fortitude


Reflex


Will


Defense


Special




1


1

0

2

0
0

Crescent Training, Fast Movement +10 Feet, Fighter Synergy, Bonus Feat




2


2

0

3

0
0

Skirmish (+1d6, +2 AC), Bonus Feat




3


3


1


3


1


1



Crescent Flurry (Extra Attack), Flash Step




4


4


1


4


1


1


Crescent Strike, Spinning Polearm




5


5


1


4


1


1


Fast Movement +20 Feet, Bonus Feat




6


6


2


5


2


2


Crescent Flurry (2 Extra Attacks), Bonus Feat




7


7


2


5


2


2


Reaping Whirlwind, Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)




8


8


2


6


2


2


Bloody Strike, Bonus Feat




9


9


3


6


3


3


Crescent Flurry (No Penalty), Bonus Feat




10


10


3


7


3


3


Fast Movement +30 Feet, Crescent Mastery





Skills: 4+ Int. Mod




Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).


HD: d8

Proficiency: All Simple and Martial Weapons, and All Light Armor.

Class Abilities:


Fighter Synergy: Levels in this class count as fighter levels for feats requiring levels of fighter as prerequisites.
Crescent Training: At 1st Level, a Bloody Sickle is adept at using reach weapons in unconventional situations. When using a reach weapon, the Bloody Sickle can attack foes adjacent to her as if they were within attack range of her weapon.
Fast Movement: A Bloody Sickle is faster than others of her race due to intense training and exercise. As a result of this her speed increases by +10 feet at 1st level, by +20 feet at 5th level, and by +30 feet at 10th level.
Bonus Feats: At 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 8th, & 9th level the Bloody Sickle gains bonus feats. She must meet all the prerequisites of the bonus feats and must choose from the following list: Great Cleave, Dodge, Improved Critical, Mobility, and Spring Attack. If she already has all of these feats, then she may instead choose a feat from the fighter bonus feat list.
Skirmish (Ex): A Bloody Sickle relies on mobility to deal extra damage and improve her defense. Starting at 2nd level, she deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet away from where she was at the start of her turn; the extra damage applies only to attacks made after the scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted and can only apply to attacks taken during the scout's turn. At 6th level, the skirmish damage increases to 2d6.

The Bloody Sickle also gets a +2 competence bonus to Armor Class during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet. The bonus applies as soon as the scout has moved 10 feet, and lasts until the start of her next turn.
The extra damage only applies against living creatures that have a discernible anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this additional damage. The scout must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. Scouts can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks made while skirmishing, but only if the target is within 30 feet.
A Bloody Sickle loses this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. If she gains the skirmish ability from another class, the bonuses stack.


Flash Step: At 3rd level, the Bloody Sickle can sacrifice one of her attacks in a full attack to take one additional 5 foot step. She may only use this ability once per round.
Crescent Flurry: At 3rd level, during a full round attack, the Bloody Sickle gains an additional attack at full BAB, but at a -2 penalty. At 6th level, her Crescent Flurry ability improves, granting her another additional attack at full BAB at the -2 penalty. At 9th level, her skill with Crescent Flurry again improves, but this time to the point where the -2 penalty disappears. This ability functions similarly to Flurry of Blows.
Crescent Strike: At 4th level, a Bloody Sickle becomes adept at dealing more damage than usual with her chosen pole arm. A bloody sickle can spend a full attack action to make a single devastating strike against an opponent, dealing damage as if it were a critical hit.
Spinning Polearm: At 4th level, when the Bloody Sickle makes a full attack with her polearm, she gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC and an additional attack with the butt of the weapon at a -5 penalty. This attack deals points of bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 your Strength modifier. (This ability functions similarly to the feat Spinning Halberd.)
Reaping Whirlwind: At 7th Level, the Bloody Sickle gains the whirlwind attack feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Using this feat is a standard action for her, and If she has moved at least 10ft before this action then her skirmish damage applies to all creatures hit by this attack.
Bloody Strike: Starting at 8th level, whenever a Bloody Sickle successfully lands a critical hit with a scythe, pole arm, or reach weapon, she may choose to instead deal normal damage with the weapon. If she does so, treat the weapon as if it was enchanted with the wounding property.
Wounding: A wounding weapon deals 1 point of Constitution damage from blood loss when it hits a creature. A critical hit does not multiply the Constitution damage. Creatures immune to critical hits (such as plants and constructs) are immune to the Constitution damage dealt by this weapon.
Crescent Mastery At 10th level, the Bloody Sickle becomes a master of her fighting style. She can use Crescent strike as her first attack in a full attack action, and in conjunction with Crescent Flurry.


Requirements:

Base Attack: +5
Skills: Balance 4, Tumble 4, Intimidate 4
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave
Special: Proficiency with a Pole-Arm, Reach Weapon, or Quarterstaff





Level


BAB


Fortitude


Reflex


Will


Defense


Special




1

0
0

2

0
0

Crescent Training




2


1

0

2

0
0

Crescent Flurry, Improved Critical




3


1


1


3


1


1






4


2


1


3


1


1


Crescent Strike, 3x/day




5


2


1


4


1


1


Bloody Strike, Spinning Polearm




6


3


2


4


2


2






7


3


2


5


2


2


Improved Crescent Flurry




8


4


2


5


2


2


Improved Crescent Strike, 6x/day




9


4


3


6


3


3






10


5


3


6


3


3


Crescent Mastery





(Note: The defense column is a hangover from Wheel of Time)

Skills: 2+ Int. Mod.

Balance, Jump, Intimidate, Tumble, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Spot.

HD: d8

Proficiency: All Simple and Martial Weapons, and All Light Armor.

Class Abilities:

Crescent Training: At 1st Level, The Bloody Sickle can attack foes adjacent to her as if they were within attack range of her weapon.

Crescent Flurry: At 2nd level, when wearing light or no armor, the Bloody Sickle gains an additional attack during a full round attack action. This attack gets a bonus of (Full BAB - 2).


Improved Critical: At 2nd Level, The Bloody Sickle gains Improved Critical as a bonus feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites. (IE, the Critical Multiplier of her chosen polearm increases by 1)


Crescent Strike: At 4th level, a Bloody Sickle becomes adept at dealing more damage than usual with her chosen pole arm. A bloody sickle can spend a full attack action to make a single devastating strike against an opponent, dealing damage as if it were a critical hit. She can use this ability 3x per day. Increases to 6x/day at 8th level.


Bloody Strike: At 5th level a Bloody Sickle is adept at of creating wounds that are hard to heal. Whenever a Bloody Sickle scores a critical hit with a polearm, the Victim gains the bleeding condition effect.
(Bleeding - Victim takes 1 point of damage per round. Multiple wounds stack. A successful healing spell or a successful Heal check (DC 15 + Damage Dealt Per Round) negates the effect.)

Spinning Polearm: At 5th level, when the Bloody Sickle make a full attack with her polearm, she gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC and an additional attack with the butt of the weapon at a -5 penalty. This attack deals points of bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 your Strength modifier. (This ability functions similarly to the feat Spinning Halberd.)

Improved Crescent Flurry: At 7th Level, The Bloody Sickle gains a second additional attack at full BAB, but at an additional -2 penalty. (So, BAB, BAB-2, BAB-4, BAB-9, )

Improved Crescent Strike: At 8th level Bloody Sickle can use Crescent Strike in a single attack action with a -4 penalty instead of a full round action.

Crescent Mastery At 10th level, the Bloody Sickle becomes a master of her fighting style. She can use Crescent strike as her first attack in a full attack action at a -4 penalty, the additional attacks gained from Crescent Flurry have no such penalty. (So BAB-4, BAB 2x, BAB-5, BAB-10, BAB-15 using the butt of the weapon.)


Edit: Updated the Prestige Class. Working on the War Scythe.

Thoughts?

HammeredWharf
2016-09-09, 05:25 AM
There's a homebrew forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design).

That being said, this class seems in line with many standard melee PRCs, or in other words very underpowered. First of all, why does your melee master get 1/2 BAB progression? More importantly, this class only gives you more damage, which is ok, but usually melee characters can deal damage just fine. How about some mobility, defensive abilities, buffs, AoE attacks, and so on? If a Bloody Sickle is up against a dragon with 150 ft fly speed, a 100 ft long breath weapon and spells, what can she do? The class also seems to have plenty of dead levels, which isn't a good thing.

Wacky89
2016-09-09, 05:28 AM
Your class seems worse than fighter itself which says alot. Worse hd, worse bab. At least you get feats from fighter.
Give it full bab, d10 hd, 4+int skill points and full initiator progression

Fouredged Sword
2016-09-09, 11:37 AM
Yeah, this class isn't very good from a mechanical standpoint.

A class that intents to be a followup to fighter levels needs full bab or nobody will take it. As it you fight as badly as a wizard. Bump it up to full bab, 1d10hd, and maybe make it count towards fighter levels.

Minor corrections - "Full round action" not "full attack action". A full attack is a specific full round action.

PRC's normally do not grant weapon or armor profs

At 3, 6 and 9th level grant a fighter bonus feat.

Fighter get's none of the class skills needed to enter this class. This makes the easiest entry likely Fighter 4 / monk or rogue 2.

ComaVision
2016-09-09, 11:51 AM
I think this would be better as a five level class. At 10 levels long, the abilities just can't compete with what you could have had instead from Tome of Battle.

Fouredged Sword
2016-09-09, 12:03 PM
I think this would be better as a five level class. At 10 levels long, the abilities just can't compete with what you could have had instead from Tome of Battle.

Yeah at level 15 you are two levels away from the party warblade doing +250 damage every other turn.

Draconium
2016-09-09, 12:33 PM
In addition to what the others have said, I have a few points to add.

First, you say you created this class for players that like fighting with scythes. Can't blame them, scythes are pretty cool, if improbable IRL. However, they only gain bonuses from using polearms, reach weapons, and quarterstaffs - scythes are NONE of those. So this class is pointless if you wield scythes.

Second, you have a column labeled Defense on your table. But you never mention it in the text. So why is it there? What's it for?

Third, why is Imp. Crescent Strike made at a -4 penalty? I think you should just let it be a normal attack - melee has it hard enough as it is.

Aside from that, I basically agree with the assessment of the others - needs BAB, higher HD, more skill points, maybe give it more of a focus on mobility so that the character can zip around the battlefield. After all, you said it's based on Ruby's style, right? That girl cannot stay still. :smalltongue:

Fouredged Sword
2016-09-09, 12:56 PM
What pops into my head is a full BAB spring attack skirmish class.

1d8hd, full bab, good reflex save 4+int skills, fighter skills + tumble

1 - 1d6 skirmish, fast movement +10ft, Fighter sysnergy
2 - Fly across the earth
3 - 1d6 +1 skirmish, Deadly Motion, fast movement +20ft
4 - Reaping Whirlwind
5 - 2d6 +1 skirmish, Fast movement +30ft, Sudden Death

Fighter Synergy - Levels in this class count as fighter levels for feats requiring levels of fighter as prerequisites.
Fly across the earth - You gain the Flyby attack feat even if you do not meet the prerequisites for it. You can use any form of movement when using this feat.
Deadly Motion - once per day per class level you can automatically confirm a critical hit.
Reaping Whirlwind - You gain the whirlwind attack feat even if you do not meet the prerequisites. Using this feat is a standard action for you. If you have moved at least 10ft before this action your skirmish damage applies to all creatures hit by this attack.
Sudden Death - As a standard action once per day you may make a single melee attack. If this attack hits it is automatically a critical hit without need to confirm the critical. This ability must be declared before rolling to hit and if the attack misses the use is wasted.

OldTrees1
2016-09-09, 02:44 PM
I don't know what your group plays with but here are my suggestions:
1) I presume that you have houseruled a Scythe that is a Polearm and a Reach weapon. Maybe call it a great scythe and post it with the prestige class.

2)

Crescent Training and Improved Critical together might be worth 1 level's worth of abilities. Placing Crescent Training at 1st level was smart because it delivers a difference in kind immediately.
Crescent Strike does not need to be limited to X/day and its improvement in Crescent Mastery is a fine idea. This is 2 level's worth of abilities
Crescent Flurry, Improved Crescent Flurry, and Spinning Polearm can be worth 2 level's worth of abilities IF you add a way to gain full attacks reliably.
Bloody Strike could be improved to 1 Con damage instead of 1hp/round (see the Wounding weapon ability). If so then it would be worth 1 level's worth of abilities.

So I count 6 level's worth of abilities in a 10 level class. That means add more abilities. However you have plenty of hp, damage, and quantitative abilities. I would suggest adding some mobility and defensive qualitative abilities to round out the remaining.

Durzan
2016-09-09, 07:08 PM
There's a homebrew forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design).

That being said, this class seems in line with many standard melee PRCs, or in other words very underpowered. First of all, why does your melee master get 1/2 BAB progression? More importantly, this class only gives you more damage, which is ok, but usually melee characters can deal damage just fine. How about some mobility, defensive abilities, buffs, AoE attacks, and so on? If a Bloody Sickle is up against a dragon with 150 ft fly speed, a 100 ft long breath weapon and spells, what can she do? The class also seems to have plenty of dead levels, which isn't a good thing.

Forgot about the homebrew tab, and didn't notice it. Posted this early in the morning while i was still groggy.

A. 1/2 BAB progression is an error. B. Mobility would fit with the class concept, yes. Some defensive abilities might be possible, but other than that, not sure. Any special ability I give a class cant be magic based, unless it is a caster prestige class... Using the Wheel of Time setting. C. 3 dead levels is a lot?


Your class seems worse than fighter itself which says alot. Worse hd, worse bab. At least you get feats from fighter.
Give it full bab, d10 hd, 4+int skill points and full initiator progression

Of course it is. This class was originally made with the Wheel of Time setting in mind, and as such is balanced for such a campaign. The d20 sourcebook for the setting has classes that are significantly underpowered compared to vanilla dnd 3.5... plus, it was created during the 3.0 era. For instance, the Fighter equivalent for Wheel of Time only gets half the number of bonus feats, and the rouge equivalent only deals +4d6 sneak attack at max level. No wonder combat takes forever in WoT.

Full BAB, Possible Hit Die Increase, and better skill points, got it. Oh, and what on earth do you mean by full initiator progression?


In addition to what the others have said, I have a few points to add.

First, you say you created this class for players that like fighting with scythes. Can't blame them, scythes are pretty cool, if improbable IRL. However, they only gain bonuses from using polearms, reach weapons, and quarterstaffs - scythes are NONE of those. So this class is pointless if you wield scythes.

Second, you have a column labeled Defense on your table. But you never mention it in the text. So why is it there? What's it for?

Third, why is Imp. Crescent Strike made at a -4 penalty? I think you should just let it be a normal attack - melee has it hard enough as it is.

Aside from that, I basically agree with the assessment of the others - needs BAB, higher HD, more skill points, maybe give it more of a focus on mobility so that the character can zip around the battlefield. After all, you said it's based on Ruby's style, right? That girl cannot stay still. :smalltongue:

Hey buddy, thanks for dropping in.

1. Really? Scythes aren't pole-arms? Logically, they seemed like they would be... gonna have to fix that.
2. The defense column is a hold over from Wheel of Time. Classes get defense bonuses that scale like BAB, 3/4 progression, or 1/2 progression. A character can use his defense bonus or his armor bonus for your AC, whichever is higher. This has the unfortunate side effect of making armor practically useless at higher levels... except for the fighter type classes which can take armor compatibility as a bonus feat. (It allows you to stack the bonuses of armor and defense)
3. Because I felt it would be too powerful without the penalty, and b/c it means the player has to make a choice. Do you use a full round action to get a devastating hit, or try to do it haphazardly after a move action with a greater chance of missing? I can consider changing it...
4. Duly noted.


Yeah, this class isn't very good from a mechanical standpoint.

A class that intents to be a followup to fighter levels needs full bab or nobody will take it. As it you fight as badly as a wizard. Bump it up to full bab, 1d10hd, and maybe make it count towards fighter levels.

Minor corrections - "Full round action" not "full attack action". A full attack is a specific full round action.

PRC's normally do not grant weapon or armor profs

At 3, 6 and 9th level grant a fighter bonus feat.

Fighter get's none of the class skills needed to enter this class. This makes the easiest entry likely Fighter 4 / monk or rogue 2.

See above for comments on why it "not very good." It has to do with how the Wheel of Time classes are generally weaker than their 3.5 counterparts. In general Wheel of Time is by default a somewhat lower powered game.

Prestige classes granting Weapon and Armor Proficiencies is not unheard of in vanilla dnd, even if it is less common. In Wheel of Time however, just about all prestige classes grant proficiencies.

Giving fighter bonus feats might not be a bad idea... its definitely one option.


What pops into my head is a full BAB spring attack skirmish class.

1d8hd, full bab, good reflex save 4+int skills, fighter skills + tumble

1 - 1d6 skirmish, fast movement +10ft, Fighter sysnergy
2 - Fly across the earth
3 - 1d6 +1 skirmish, Deadly Motion, fast movement +20ft
4 - Reaping Whirlwind
5 - 2d6 +1 skirmish, Fast movement +30ft, Sudden Death

Fighter Synergy - Levels in this class count as fighter levels for feats requiring levels of fighter as prerequisites.
Fly across the earth - You gain the Flyby attack feat even if you do not meet the prerequisites for it. You can use any form of movement when using this feat.
Deadly Motion - once per day per class level you can automatically confirm a critical hit.
Reaping Whirlwind - You gain the whirlwind attack feat even if you do not meet the prerequisites. Using this feat is a standard action for you. If you have moved at least 10ft before this action your skirmish damage applies to all creatures hit by this attack.
Sudden Death - As a standard action once per day you may make a single melee attack. If this attack hits it is automatically a critical hit without need to confirm the critical. This ability must be declared before rolling to hit and if the attack misses the use is wasted.

Skirmish and Fast Movement are good abilities that fits well with the class, and I will probably end up adding them. They would add a nice degree of mobility to the class.

Deadly Motion and Sudden Death - Redundant abilities... at least for me; I allow critical hits automatically confirm in most of my games. Rolling to confirm can potentially ruin an exciting moment.

Reaping Whirlwind - This also fits with the intended fighting style of the class. I will probably end up adding a variant of this.


I don't know what your group plays with but here are my suggestions:
1) I presume that you have houseruled a Scythe that is a Polearm and a Reach weapon. Maybe call it a great scythe and post it with the prestige class.

2)

Crescent Training and Improved Critical together might be worth 1 level's worth of abilities. Placing Crescent Training at 1st level was smart because it delivers a difference in kind immediately.
Crescent Strike does not need to be limited to X/day and its improvement in Crescent Mastery is a fine idea. This is 2 level's worth of abilities
Crescent Flurry, Improved Crescent Flurry, and Spinning Polearm can be worth 2 level's worth of abilities IF you add a way to gain full attacks reliably.
Bloody Strike could be improved to 1 Con damage instead of 1hp/round (see the Wounding weapon ability). If so then it would be worth 1 level's worth of abilities.

So I count 6 level's worth of abilities in a 10 level class. That means add more abilities. However you have plenty of hp, damage, and quantitative abilities. I would suggest adding some mobility and defensive qualitative abilities to round out the remaining.

1. Not really, although that can be easily arranged. I always thought that a scythe was a polearm... as its basically just a long stick with a curved blade on one end.
2a. Thanks, that was the idea.
2b. Thanks. Will remove the X/day limit. Will need to find another way to check its power, should it prove to get out of hand.
2c. Crescent Flurry was based off of Flurry of Blows, and is supposed to function in a similar fashion. So no problem here, other than the low BAB, and the fact that I might need to rewrite that part for clarification.
2d. An excellent suggestion, one that I will likely use.

Other suggestions duly noted.

Extra Anchovies
2016-09-09, 08:34 PM
This class is... eh. All it offers is more damage for THF (which happens to be a combat style that doesn't need more damage). If I'm already playing a THFer, all this class offers is somewhat bigger numbers. I'd much rather have something interesting. Since it's a scythe-focused class, here's some ideas:
-wedge your scythe into the ground to resist movement from wind, bull rushes, etc or into a wall to reduce or eliminate fall damage (exact degree of resistance or reduction could be based on a damage roll matched against a custom table or something)
-use the scythe to pole vault, substituting an attack roll for a jump check (perhaps allow this as part of a full attack?)
-some Dervish-like ability to move between each attack in a full attack


C. 3 dead levels is a lot?

One dead level is a lot. Have you ever seen a multiclass character with three levels in Fighter? If you want some feature to be accessible at level X and don't have any ideas for what to put at level X-1, at least give X-1 a nerfed or partial version of X's feature, so they at least get something.


Full BAB, Possible Hit Die Increase, and better skill points, got it. Oh, and what on earth do you mean by full initiator progression?

Levels in the class counting as initiator levels - it's a Tome of Battle thing. Based on what you've been saying, most of the stuff in the book probably has too high of a power floor for your game.


Rolling to confirm can potentially ruin an exciting moment.

I have to disagree - the critical threat is what creates the tension that makes the moment exciting, and the confirmation roll is what resolves the tension. "I get more damage, woo hoo" isn't as much fun as "I have a chance to deal more damage! I sure hope I succeed!".

Durzan
2016-09-12, 03:24 AM
I must say I've never cracked open the Tomb of Battle, as I do not have it... either a physical copy or a PDF file. And even if I did have it, not sure if I'd allow its contents in my campaigns anyway.

Also, I am currently working on a revamp of the Bloody Sickle, based on your feedback, and I will repost it when it is finished. There is a decent chance it may prove overpowered when I am finished.

Shackel
2016-09-12, 03:37 AM
Often when I think of scythe fighting, especially something as mobile and fluid as Ruby's, I think of cleaving and wide sweeps. Considering the crescent motif, perhaps something similar to the War Hulk, which gains increasingly quick ways(until it can do so on every attack) to attack multiple adjacent squares with one attack?

weckar
2016-09-12, 03:42 AM
One thing I always wanted out of a sickle that D&D never gave me is the ability to perform a Crescent Moon Sweep, a.k.a. attack multiple adjacent enemies at once (which is what the few military applications of the scythe SHINED in).

As for initiator progression, I'm personally of the opinion that not every martial character needs something from the ToB, so I'd be happy if you left it off.

Durzan
2016-09-12, 06:28 AM
One thing I always wanted out of a sickle that D&D never gave me is the ability to perform a Crescent Moon Sweep, a.k.a. attack multiple adjacent enemies at once (which is what the few military applications of the scythe SHINED in).

As for initiator progression, I'm personally of the opinion that not every martial character needs something from the ToB, so I'd be happy if you left it off.

Actually, that can be mimicked with the Whirlwind Attack feat... which I am planning on including in the class features.

Durzan
2016-09-12, 04:12 PM
Okay, Updated the prestige class a bit... check the OP. Decent chance it might prove overpowered, but its easier to nerf things after you buffed them than to try to make it balanced at the start.

Fouredged Sword
2016-09-12, 07:14 PM
Well, you still have a dead level. It's not the end of the world, but even WOTC realized how much they suck during play.

The other sorta weird things is your Skirmish progression. The normal progression is one step each odd level just like rogue with the steps being 1st level "1d6", 3rd level "1d6+1 def", 5th level "2d6+1 def", 7th level "2d6+2 def", 9th level "3d6+2 def". I would really consider applying the standard skirmish progression to the class. It would fill in your dead level at 3rd level and smooth it out to apply much more steadily rather than in the big jumps you have currently.

Durzan
2016-09-13, 03:06 AM
Well, you still have a dead level. It's not the end of the world, but even WOTC realized how much they suck during play.

The other sorta weird things is your Skirmish progression. The normal progression is one step each odd level just like rogue with the steps being 1st level "1d6", 3rd level "1d6+1 def", 5th level "2d6+1 def", 7th level "2d6+2 def", 9th level "3d6+2 def". I would really consider applying the standard skirmish progression to the class. It would fill in your dead level at 3rd level and smooth it out to apply much more steadily rather than in the big jumps you have currently.

3rd level is a dead level? Its got Crescent Flurry and Flash Step. There's a problem with that row of cells causing them to not line up properly.

As for the progression of skirmish, there is a method to the madness. I prefer not to break stuff up into ridiculously small pieces, if an ability improves, it should do so in a steady, but major way. As 3.5 usually does it, the abilities increase by too small portions too often... that always seemed to be a flaw of 3.5 to me. It makes sense with a base class, but a prestige class should have larger jumps I think. Plus, I tend to hate odd numbers (with the exception of 5.), so there is some reasoning to how I've done it. My rule of thumb is try to avoid +1 bonuses if possible, since they have minimum effect at higher levels. a +2 bonus is solid enough and easy for me to remember.

HammeredWharf
2016-09-13, 04:20 AM
It's much better now. Some of the abilities (esp. Bloody Strike) still feel a bit weak, but at least there are no dead levels. I'd remove the attribute requirements, since they're not a thing in 3.5e and I think this is still a 3.5 class... right? Requiring Combat Expertise also seems a bit pointless, since the rest of the class doesn't support its usage in any way. Also, this class seems to suffer from the "Monk syndrome": it has several abilities that improve mobility and several abilities that require full-round attacks. It screams "I need Travel Devotion to function".

To me it looks like you've got some misconceptions about 3.5's power level. This class isn't overpowered. It's just ok. Still needs some wording improvements, since some of it made me a bit confused. For example, why does Crescent Flurry function similarly to Flurry of Blows? Does that actually mean something? Your skirmish description also mentions scout repeatedly.

Durzan
2016-09-13, 07:53 AM
It's much better now. Some of the abilities (esp. Bloody Strike) still feel a bit weak, but at least there are no dead levels. I'd remove the attribute requirements, since they're not a thing in 3.5e and I think this is still a 3.5 class... right? Requiring Combat Expertise also seems a bit pointless, since the rest of the class doesn't support its usage in any way. Also, this class seems to suffer from the "Monk syndrome": it has several abilities that improve mobility and several abilities that require full-round attacks. It screams "I need Travel Devotion to function".

To me it looks like you've got some misconceptions about 3.5's power level. This class isn't overpowered. It's just ok. Still needs some wording improvements, since some of it made me a bit confused. For example, why does Crescent Flurry function similarly to Flurry of Blows? Does that actually mean something? Your skirmish description also mentions scout repeatedly.

okay, I have no idea what half the stuff you guys are talking about are.

1. Reaping Whirlwind allows you to use Whirlwind attack as a standard action. Flash step allows you to effectively take a 10 ft step instead of a 5 foot step in exchange for sacrificing one of your attacks in a full attack action... allowing you to add skirmish damage to a full attack or a whirlwind attack and defense bonus that round even if you use a full round action. Spring Attack lets you move both before and after your attack, allowing you to get better positioning to help allies, or a better positioning for your next set of actions. This represents the mobility function of the class.

2. Combat Expertise is actually pretty useful, it rounds out the class's defensive options and acts as a defensive counterpoint to power attack. Since Skirmish only gives a +2 bonus to AC with how I've applied it and at most, a bloody sickle will be dearly light armor, this helps add an optional defensive layer to the glass canon, when combined with dodge and mobility. Plus, combat expertise is a prerequisite for whirlwind attack. This is the defensive function of the class.

3. The offensive capabilities of this class should be obvious. The bloody sickle can hit multiple targets hard using Crescent Strike in combination with Reaping Whirlwind and Whirlwind attack... and dealing a single point of constitution damage with each critical due to bloody strike. Or she can use a full attack to deal massive damage to one opponent, using Crescent Mastery and other abilities already mentioned. She may sacrifice one of her attacks to get a 10 ft step that round instead of a 5 ft step. If she moved 10 feet or more she adds +2d6 points of damage on top of that. Either way, if she drops any one of her opponents, she can use Great Cleave to deal more damage.l to another nearby... and if she hasn't used up all her movement yet, or taken a full round action, she can high tail it out of there using spring attack and her fast movement.

Basically with this setup, a Bloody Sickle can potentially mow through tons of Enemy mooks like a lawn mower in one round... using a combination of mobility and attacks that hit fast and hard...just like Ruby Rose. The trade off is this class is supposed to be a bit of a glass cannon, hence the weaker hit die.

Again, we're talking about a prestige class set in the wheel of time d20 RPG, with 3.5 stuff home brewed in... a setting where divine casters dont really exist, spell casters are even more OP, and where base classes have more versatile builds but are arguably significantly weaker than their 3.5 counterparts... due to each having fewer class features and being from 3.0 instead of 3.5. Hence why I say this class may prove overpowered... and why I may have changed progression a tad. Oh and yes, because I've never played vanilla 3.5, my sense of balance is probably a bit screwed.

As for the repeated mentioning of scouts... I thought I got all of them... dang. I just copied and pasted the info from a pdf and made changes as needed.

HammeredWharf
2016-09-13, 08:22 AM
The ruleset you're using is a bit unclear, so it's hard to say anything about the power level. You posted this in the 3.5 subforum and wrote that the "defense column is a hold over from Wheel of Time" and that the "class was originally made with the Wheel of Time setting in mind", so I assumed that you're not using WoT anymore, but I guess I was wrong? That's pretty important, because we could be talking about the normal 3.5 ruleset where melee characters deal 300+ damage per round by lvl 10 and aren't excited about a d6 of skirmish damage or some really limited ruleset where that d6 is a neat bonus.

You really should always specify the exact rules you're using in the OP.

Durzan
2016-09-13, 10:06 AM
I posted it in 3.5 forum because Wheel of Time d20 is a 3.0 spinoff... and the rules really arnt really that different in how they function, apart from the magic system, a maximum of 4 attacks due to high BAB, and nerfed base classes. in fact, they were so close that a friend of mine managed to cobble together a functioning hybrid system that works surprisingly well... as far as I've played through anyway. Plus, my group uses a combination of Wheel of Time alongside 3.5 rules, so it seemed kinda logical. Basically we use base classes from Wheel of time, but allow our group members to multiclass into other classes/prestige classes... assuming we can get it to fit the setting in a logical manner. Heck, my friend and I even reworked the paladin and barbarian into prestige classes...

As far as damage goes... wtf? ...I fail to understand how a core rulebook melee character can average 300 damage per round... unless most of that damage is from sneak attack or other such stuff. that's a crap ton of dice to roll... where does it all come from?!? How many attacks do they have?

HammeredWharf
2016-09-13, 11:34 AM
Not core only, but based on what I've seen on the 3.5 forum most people use at least the Complete Warrior/Arcane/etc books, which improve melee a ton. I'd never play a melee character in a core only game. They're awful.

The specific build varies a bit and 300 DPR is a bit high, but not completely min-maxed. The core ingredients are a 2h weapon, Power Attack, Pounce (usually from the lvl 1 Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian alternate class feature in Complete Champion), Leap Attack (feat from Complete Adventurer) and Shock Trooper (feat from Complete Warrior). They let you full attack after a Pounce, using Power Attack for +30 dmg / -10 AC. Then you just need four swings and 20 damage per swing from other sources, both of which are pretty easy to get (like 3 swings from BAB and one from Haste). Now you've got 200 DPR. That's as much as I can immediately figure out with a very basic build like this. You can add Frenzied Berserker for more damage from Power Attack (x5 multiplier with the build above for a total of 280 DPR), but that's a risky. If you've got more books available, it's better to add versatility, like some Tome of Battle classes and such.

Now, that may seem OP, but it's really not, considering what casters can do by lvl 10. I made a lvl 6 Druid build a few weeks ago and got around 130 DPR basically without trying. So 200 is comparatively tame.

Fouredged Sword
2016-09-13, 03:45 PM
Every group plays different. To fine tune balance nothing beats playtesting.

Durzan
2016-09-14, 04:10 PM
Okay, so lets do some math...

Lets say my character Ruby Rose is a Fighter 10/Bloody Sickle 10 and wields a scythe (Piercing or Slashing, 2d4 x4). Assuming a base stats of Strength 14, Dex 16, Con 10, and Int 14. Wis & Charisma is irrelevant for the purposes of this little excersise. (A fighter 10 could get into Bloody Sickle fairly easily, just would have to place some ranks in cross class skills.)

Note: Will alter the Spinning Polearm ability so that it can apply to Scythes and Quarterstaffs as well.

This means that before items, and other stuff are factored in she has the following:

BAB of +20, which grants 4 attacks at +20/+15/+10/+5 respectively. Factoring in Strength Bonus, its +22/+17/+10/+7
Base Damage of 2d4+3 on each successful hit, meaning she deals 4-11 damage each hit, since the scythe is a 2-handed weapon. On a nat-20 she'd be dealing 8d4+12 on a successful hit, meaning a range of 20-44 damage with a single hit. This means that assuming she hits all 4 times, she'd deal 16-44 DPR, assuming she didn't get a critical at least once. If she did get a critical at least once, she'd be dealing at least 36-88 DPR, with a possibility of doing even more, as each time she successfully lands a critical hit, her damage would shoot through the roof.
Base Speed of 60 feet.
The following feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Great Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Critical, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack... plus 4 remaining Fighter Bonus Feats (One comes tacked on as a Bloody Sickle bonus feat), & 7 Regular Feats.
At least 56 fighter skill points to place. 8 of which go into tumble (Cross Class Skill), and 4 into jump. Plus 60 Skill points for a Bloody Sickle.


And thats before we start adding in feat abilities and class special attacks to increase her damage. With the Bloody Sickle abilities we have:

BAB +20, granting 4 base attacks. Crescent Flurry adds 2 additional attacks in at full BAB, and Spinning Polearm adds an additional attack at the end of a full attack at another -5 penalty. So this means Ruby has at most 7 attacks in 1 round at +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5/+0. Factoring in Strength Bonus we have +22/+22/+22/+17/+12/+7/+2.
With the above information above, this means that 6 attacks dealing damage at 2d4+3 (4-11 damage), and 1 attack dealing damage at 1d6+1 (2-7 damage). If we assume that each attack hits a single target that means that we have a base damage range of 26-73 DPR, not counting critical hits or damage from other sources.

Crescent Strike+Crescent Mastery guarantees that the first attack is a critical hit, meaning the first attack deals 8d4+12 damage (20-44), meaning that base damage increases to 42-106 DPR. Improved critical changes the chance of each critical from 5% to 10%, thus making it even more likely that one of the other 6 attacks will become a critical.
With the use of Flash Step, Ruby can sacrifice one of her attack actions to take a ten-foot step instead of a 5-ft step during a full attack... and allowing her to use the Skirmish ability, which adds a +2d6 damage to all 6 of her remaining attacks. Since Spinning Polearm does the least damage, she will most likely sacrifice the spinning polearm attack. This has the effect of adding a total of 12d6 or +(12-60) damage to her DPR, but removes the 2-7 damage gained from spinning polearm. This brings her total up to 52-166 DPR. Again, this isn't accounting for additional critical hits, other special abilities, Magical Items, additional feats, etc.
Factoring in Magical items could grant a net +30 to damage just from the +5 enchantment, raising the range to 82-196 DPR. Additional enchantments, spells, and magical items could push the lower limit over 100 and the upper limit over 200. Power attack could also add an additional +30 damage to the pool, but at the expense of making each attack even less likely to hit. So this bumps up her potential DPR is 112-226.
Bloody Strike would also add 1 Con Damage per critical hit, making her Final DPR be 112-226+(1 to 6 Con Damage), but it would likely be even higher when you factor in additional critical hits, other special abilities, Magic, additional feats, and other stuff.
As another combat option, Ruby could use dash into a group of foes, use Reaping Whirlwind to deal 1 attack at full BAB to all enemies within attack range (Dealing at least 8d4+12+2d6+Optional-Power-Attack points of damage to each of them due to Skirmish and Crescent Strike), and then get out of range or into a better position, due to Spring Attack and her move speed.
Cleave and Great Cleave would potentially allow her to deal even more damage to a single target should she drop one.



All in all, Not a bad build, could probably be better, but she's versatile and could probably hold her own... and thats just with Fighter 10/Bloody Sickle 10, which probably isn't completely optimized.

HammeredWharf
2016-09-16, 12:58 PM
Relative to a Core-only Fighter, that's pretty good. Relative to actually powerful builds from Core, not so much. For example, a Dire Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direTiger.htm) deals (2.5*2+8)*2+(3.5*2+4)+(2.5*2+4)*2 = 55 DPR on average, with attack bonuses of +20/+20/+18/+18/+14. Let's say a lvl 20 Druid and his Animal companion, who are both Dire Tigers, charge into an enemy. They deal 110 DPR on average, without any buffs and if they fail to grapple. It's 128 if they succeed. Now, while this doesn't look that bad for now, keep in mind that buffs are something a Druid is fully capable of, while a Fighter/Bloody Sickle is not. With just Greater Magic Fang + Bull's Strength, the above-mentioned Druid deals 200 DPR on average, all while grappling things and moving up to 80 ft. Note that this is just something the Druid does on the side, without any effort or using his most powerful abilities, and that his lowest attack bonus (with G. Magic Fang and Bull's Strength) is 21, so he has a decent chance of hitting an average CR 20 monster (AC 36).

Many people are fine with non-magical characters sucking later on in the game, so it all depends on your group. Personally, I don't like being roughly equal in usefulness to another guy's cat, so I only play melee when options better than Core are available. Note that I'm not saying melee classes should be expected to outmelee optimized Druids, but IMO they should at least force Druids to break a sweat, so to speak.

Durzan
2016-09-17, 07:47 AM
oh and I forgot to add in the fact that all her critical hits deal 1 con damage to her foes, due to Bloody Strike... That significantly ramps up her effective DPR, due to the fact that for every 2 con points a person drops, they lose another 20 HP. Since at least 1 of her attacks will always be a critical strike, this means she has the potential of dealing 1-6 con damage on a full attack, or effectively dealing another 10-60 points of damage on top of what she's already got.

If a bloody sickle gets a few good critical strikes down on someone, they could probably kill someone of equivalent level and power in about 2 or 3 rounds, just from the rapid HP loss they'd suffer due to con damage... and if that doesn't kill them, then the bloody sickle could easily keep wailing on them until they die from either HP loss or until their con score hits zero.