3.5 Help Dragon and Grappling

[Stewbert]

I have been looking over the monster grappling thread on this forum but just wanted to double check something as my understanding of it seems pretty broken at the moment.

Below is the text i'm using for reference (in particular the bolded part).


1.1 The basic grab. Example: dire bear.
BAB/Grapple: +9/+23
Full Attack: 2 claws +19 (2d4+10) and bite +13 (2d8+5)
SA: improved grab on claw

Round 1: The dire bear takes a full attack. You roll for each claw and then the bite. Then, after the attack sequence is finished, if either claw hit, you do the grapple check(s). The bear has 2 choices. It can either attempt to grab with just that claw, in which case the grapple check goes from +23 to +3, or it can grab with its whole body, keeping the full +23. Note that if the bear hit two separate opponents with each claw, it can either choose to grab one of them at +23 or both at +3. There is no extra damage done at this time if the bear wins the grapple.

Round 2: Let's assume the bear starts the round with a hold, and that it is using its whole body for the grapple. It makes one grapple check at +23 and one at +18 (base attack bonus of +9/+4). Each successful grapple check does claw damage of 2d4+10.

Alternate Round 2b: As in round 2, but the bear managed to have a hold with just using the claw. Its grapple checks are again made at 20 less for +3 and -2. The damage remains 2d4+10. In addition, it can still attack with its other claw and its bite. These other attacks are made at their full +19 and +13 respectively; they are not penalized at -4, even if the bear attacks its held victim, because the bear itself is not considered grappled.

My party are mid battle against a black dragon (Very old) and the last session ended with one guy being grappled via Snatch -20 like in Alternate Round 2b above. My question refers to the bolded part in particular. The dragon has a bab of +28 giving it 6 attacks if grappling to do damage. The creature is also listed as having 2x claw, 2x wing and a tail for its natural attacks. Does this mean next round the dragon could make 6 grapple checks on the held person to inflict damage AND then use the other 5 attacks, bite, remaining claw, 2x wing and tail against the rest of the party for 11 effective attacks?

Thanks for any help!

[GreatWyrmGold]

The question comes down to "Can a creature use iterative attacks with its natural attacks?" After all, if we take away the grappling, we're still left asking if a dragon can make half a dozen bite attacks and five secondary natural weapon attacks.

I'm inclined to say that's not how the rules work, but I can't find a citation. Although it's worth noting that the dire bear in the SRD doesn't get iterative attacks despite having a BAB high enough for them.

[Eldariel]

Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch) places no limitations on the Snatcher. It refers to Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab). By strict RAW, as Improved Grab makes the creature using the bodypart to hold the target not be considered grappled itself, it can't take grapple-checks to do damage. Snatch does state the part does the automatic damage (Bite in this case, I'd presume) each round and its Breath-weapon doesn't allow a save though (again, assuming the creature is held in its mouth).

When actually grappling, yes, creatures are limited in their natural attack routines to only using one natural weapon (aside from Rake ones) but can use iteratives (note, iteratives are capped at 4 no matter the creature's BAB) to deal damage while grappling. And yes, grapple-rules are dumb and horribly written.

[Stewbert]

The automatic squeeze damage only occurs if 3 sizes larger, in this instance its huge vs medium so no go.

The Improved Grab rules state.


A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

How can above be true if the creature is not permitted to make grapple checks due to not technically grappling. Does this mean if the player attempts to break free on his turn and fails THEN the dragon applies automatic damage?

[Eldariel]

How can above be true if the creature is not permitted to make grapple checks due to not technically grappling. Does this mean if the player attempts to break free on his turn and fails THEN the dragon applies automatic damage?

Well, it can just attack the grappled enemy normally using its Bite while holding with a bodypart, I suppose. That clause would then apply only when not conducting a grapple with just the bodypart but with Improved Grab in general.

[Hiro Quester]

The question comes down to "Can a creature use iterative attacks with its natural attacks?" After all, if we take away the grappling, we're still left asking if a dragon can make half a dozen bite attacks and five secondary natural weapon attacks.

I'm inclined to say that's not how the rules work, but I can't find a citation. Although it's worth noting that the dire bear in the SRD doesn't get iterative attacks despite having a BAB high enough for them.

You can either "damage your opponent" and make iterative grapple checks, as its BAB allows, and do the damage of the attack that made the initial grab, OR you can use "attack your opponent" and use natural weapons (at -4 BAB, and -5 for using secondary attacks).

You can't do both. It's usually better to use a grapple check, since the opposition is your opponent's grapple check, rather than their -- often higher-- AC. Most animals like that dire bear with a high grapple check would do better to take the former option.

[Eladrinblade]

Pretty sure creatures like animals and dragons never get iterative attacks.

[Eldariel]

You can either "damage your opponent" and make iterative grapple checks, as its BAB allows, and do the damage of the attack that made the initial grab, OR you can use "attack your opponent" and use natural weapons (at -4 BAB, and -5 for using secondary attacks).

You can't do both. It's usually better to use a grapple check, since the opposition is your opponent's grapple check, rather than their -- often higher-- AC. Most animals like that dire bear with a high grapple check would do better to take the former option.

You can never use secondary attacks in grapple. Creatures that can do additional attacks have Rake for this purpose. This is directly from Rules Compendium: "Regardless of who started the grapple, while you’re grappling, you can perform only the following maneuvers. Some maneuvers (as indicated in the following text) can be performed in place of an attack. If you can make multiple attacks because of a high base attack bonus, you can perform as many of one of these maneuvers as you have attacks. You can choose the same or a different maneuver for each attack.

A creature that has a high enough base attack bonus can use a fullround action to make a grapple check for every extra attack its base attack bonus would allow it if it were a character. That means such a creature can make two grapple checks if its base attack bonus is +6 to +10, three if +11 to +15, and four if +16 or higher."

Grapple-actions are also specifically defined:
"Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item that isn’t a spell completion item. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item, but it takes the normal time to activate." (so no iterative magic item use, luckily enough)

"Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, a natural weapon, or a light weapon against a creature you’re grappling. You take a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

A creature can attack with only one of its natural weapons on its turn while grappling, unless it has a special ability that allows it to do otherwise or its description provides an exception. This attack is usually made with the creature’s primary natural weapon." - So as above, you can actually get iteratives with any of your natural weapon in Grapple. Yes, the rules are dumb. A Dire Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direTiger.htm) in Grapple gets 3 Bites at -4/-9/-14 & 2 Rakes at -2.

"Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or pinned, provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a grapple check to cast the spell, but it takes its normal casting time to cast."

"Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to that dealt by your unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike. If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check." - As per Improved Grab, you of course get your natural weapon damage here. So it's just a pick of if you attack vs. their Grapple-check or AC. Might or might not count as an attack; it replaces an attack action and deals damage so probably does. That would mean you get full Rakes even if you deal damage.

"Draw a Light Weapon: By making a successful grapple check, you can draw a light weapon as a move action."

"Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check you make in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but doing this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual grapple check results. Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to. If you escape, you finish by moving into any unoccupied space adjacent to that in which you were grappling."

"Move: You can move half your speed, bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you, by winning an opposed grapple check. Doing this requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other grapplers’ individual grapple check results to move the grapple. You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple."

"Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so doesn’t require a successful grapple check."

"Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent stationary for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check you make in place of an attack. Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see If You’re Pinning, below)."

"Break Another’s Pin: If you’re grappling an opponent that has another creature pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the pin for the other creature. That creature is still grappling, but it is no longer pinned."

"Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can attempt to use that weapon by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you don’t gain possession of the weapon, but you can attack your opponent with it, taking a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Attacking in this way doesn’t require an additional action."


TL;DR: If you're grappling, you can take a full-round action to take an attack action for each attack your BAB would allow you (regardless of whether you normally get iteratives or not). Your options with attack actions are Attack, Damage, Escape, Pin, Break Another's Pin. If you Attack, you can use a light weapon, an unarmed strike, a natural weapon (but normally only a single natural weapon for the whole round), or enemy's light weapon. Enemy's light weapon requires a Grapple-check in addition to an attack roll. Rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake) allows additional attacks (two Claws if not stating otherwise) with additional weapons when attacking an opponent.



Pretty sure creatures like animals and dragons never get iterative attacks.

This is just with natural weapons. Grapple is different; if you have high BAB, you have iteratives in grapple.