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TheBrassDuke
2016-09-09, 12:01 PM
Hey, Playground!

So, a while back I started this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490140-Help-Building-Big-Bads!) thread for help in building two BBEGs, and I completed one of them (the Half-Fey Bard), but I'm still actually working on the Fallen Saint, Eleisa (http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/CainePorter/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpswtjc8trp.png) (image Copyright Maria Jang, or "Soda222" on DeviantArt, and Richard Soloyna--me, who commissioned the image).

For her build, I've decided to go with:

Human [with the Saint Template*]
Cleric x/Divine Disciple x/?
Domains: Shadow; Pestilence; Death
Weapon: Rapier; Bow

It's just a gist, but that's what I've got so far.

*there's debate as to whether she loses it after falling, so I'm not sure yet.

------------------------------------

I've selected the backstory from another Playgrounder in regards to her fall, and will be moving forward with that.*

*
I would suggest instead giving her a crises of faith in her god's goodness and wisdom. Perhaps a massive plague spread throughout the land, and Eleisa is trying to find its source. Her investigations suggest that there might be corruption inside the Church of Creation that's responsible. Greatly troubled by this, she brings her findings to the local archbishop, figuring that Creation would never let someone corrupt rise to such a high position. Unfortunately for her, the Archbishop is also a high priest of the god of Deception, Betrayal, Suffering, Despair, etc. He's responsible for the whole thing, and when he finds out that she's on his trail he slips a seditive in some food he offers her. When she awakes, she finds herself manacled in a basement in the cathedral, completely naked except for a ring of sustenance on her finger. She's inside an unhallowed area and she's been deliberately infected by the disease. There is a permanencied Minor Image of the Archbishop in the room who basically mocks her on loop until the disease kills her several days later.

Naturally, getting killed in a church of Creation by a supposed archbishop of Creation by the disease she was trying stop in such a humiliating fashion rather shakes Eleisa's conviction. She starts to question her devotion to Creation, about whether all of her service was to a being who was either too impotant to stop someone masquerading as one of it's own clergy or too apathetic or malicious to stop him. During her transit the Shadow comes to her. The Shadow recognizes her fragile state of mind and exploits it, saying all of her years of devotion were to a lie, completely meaningless. It then makes its offer: unlike Creation, it is upfront about what it is, Pestilence and Death. It would return her to life as it's servant, with the goal of spreading misery and showing everyone else just how little the gods care.

Now Eleisa's conversion from hero to villain is a tragic fall rather than her making a rather stupid conclusion in an openly polytheistic world. It also gives her a goal besides just spreading her new god's will: she wants to find and kill the 'Archbishop' for her humiliating death. Naturally, the Archbishop has moved on from that role, so she doesn't know where he is. This could lead to an interesting moment if the Archbishop shows up in game masquerading for a different religeon and becomes an 'ally' NPC for the party. He could begin spreading misery while feigning to help them, and Eleisa could recognize the MO and starting gunning for him, also bring Pestilence and Death where she goes. The Archbishop could then easily frame her for the initial plague and send the party after her. Should be quite interesting, especially when the party discover's their "ally's" true allegiance, and depending on how they play it could lead to Eleisa's redemption or tragic death. Maybe even both.

As Eleisa is a cleric of the Goddess Midnight, and essentially the Manifestation of Midnight's Horseman of Pestilence, she'll focus less on undead-related spells and more on diseases and poisons, darkness and illusion/shadow.

There's a lot of fluff I've got for her, just not a lot for mechanics. I'm not entirely settled on the exact build yet, and am probably not thinking outside the box of possibilities.

She is Lv 10 (not including the Saint Template)

Do you have any suggestions?

-Possible changes to PrC, additional ones (no ToB unfortunately)
-magic items
-feats
-spell selection (preference-wise, since she'll prepare according to her divinations)
-enchantments on weapons/armor
-anything else I'm forgetting

TheBrassDuke
2016-09-09, 05:51 PM
Also, I did consider that, while she is a Lady of the Plague, and uses her divine power to spread it and sow chaos, she's an excellent Dex fighter, and even wears an adamantine breastplate.

I know my info is garbled together and ridiculously confusing, at least to me. Sorry for that!

Kelvarius
2016-09-10, 12:15 AM
I won't comment on an actual build since I am not qualified for such things.

However, I will comment on the Saint Template. As far as RAW goes, I can't find anything that says you lose your template if you no longer find yourself Exalted, or even Good at all. That said, I do personally think that RAI would say you lose the template if you lose Exalted status. But, even with that in mind, since you're the DM and it serves plot purposes, I don't see why you can't DM fiat that she retains her Sainthood after falling from grace. Especially since RAW doesn't say it would happen.

Edit: Also, I really enjoy that image. I especially enjoy that you specifically commissioned it instead of just searching images for something similar. I love that kind of dedication because, in my experience, that's the sort of thing that makes for an amazing table to game at.

Name1
2016-09-10, 12:24 AM
>.>
<.<

Well, this won't give her much power, but fluff-wise... how about a Nosomatic Chirurgeon?

TheBrassDuke
2016-09-10, 08:48 AM
I won't comment on an actual build since I am not qualified for such things.

However, I will comment on the Saint Template. As far as RAW goes, I can't find anything that says you lose your template if you no longer find yourself Exalted, or even Good at all. That said, I do personally think that RAI would say you lose the template if you lose Exalted status. But, even with that in mind, since you're the DM and it serves plot purposes, I don't see why you can't DM fiat that she retains her Sainthood after falling from grace. Especially since RAW doesn't say it would happen.

Edit: Also, I really enjoy that image. I especially enjoy that you specifically commissioned it instead of just searching images for something similar. I love that kind of dedication because, in my experience, that's the sort of thing that makes for an amazing table to game at.

See, I was going back and forth with the same issue; while I know she'd be losing her three Exalted feats she earned to become a Saint, I wasn't sure if she would--or even should--remove the Template, too.

It makes for a kind of revered villain, one some of my more pious party members may hesitate to fight, which will be fun to see. She will be protected by the very light she feels betrayed her, and use it against the good guys and those who oppose her new Master.

I started her out with an image I found on the net, and while it was fitting, I wanted something more solid for Eleisa. She is really cool, and I can see using her as both a PC next time I'm a player and a villain, for our current play. I have a real picture of her now, and I love it (mind, that's only the bust of the image; I commissioned a full body, which I didn't post online).

Maria Jang is an excellent artist, and her commissions aren't all that expensive. I paid 70 bucks for this one, and 60 for my sorcerer!


>.>
<.<

Well, this won't give her much power, but fluff-wise... how about a Nosomatic Chirurgeon?

What a mouthful. I'm looking into it now. Hm...I wish I had known about this all the time I played in Eberron. :/

Kelvarius
2016-09-10, 11:45 AM
I think you should keep the template. Like you said, it makes for a more interesting character. You could even fluff it in a way that makes sense.

She wasn't just granted special power from her (former) deity for her devotion, she was given a tiny spark of the deity's power itself so that she might better serve Him/Her/It. That sliver of power isn't something that can just be taken away because it is now a part of her very being.

And now that she's fallen, she loathes that about herself. Some things she does might be more drastic to spite that part of her. Or maybe some of the things she does aren't drastic enough because of its influence, and she views herself as being too soft and weak, so the next time she goes really overboard in her actions to make up for it.

Then if there's a possibility that the PCs might opt for a redemption arc, it's a good opening. "You can return to the righteous path, there's still good in you."

TheBrassDuke
2016-09-10, 01:44 PM
I think you should keep the template. Like you said, it makes for a more interesting character. You could even fluff it in a way that makes sense.

She wasn't just granted special power from her (former) deity for her devotion, she was given a tiny spark of the deity's power itself so that she might better serve Him/Her/It. That sliver of power isn't something that can just be taken away because it is now a part of her very being.

And now that she's fallen, she loathes that about herself. Some things she does might be more drastic to spite that part of her. Or maybe some of the things she does aren't drastic enough because of its influence, and she views herself as being too soft and weak, so the next time she goes really overboard in her actions to make up for it.

Then if there's a possibility that the PCs might opt for a redemption arc, it's a good opening. "You can return to the righteous path, there's still good in you."

I really like that, actually. The whole time I worked on her, I had made room for a possible redemption for her, and that seems like a good justification to keep it.

Sure, she's evil, but not for the sake of evil. In her eyes, when the Cardinal (see last thread) ended up killing her, she took that as an affront by not only McJerk, but also as a failing and betrayal by Creation Herself. If Her champion could fall so easily, and nothing stopped it...it gives the shadow goddess "Midnight" a lot of room to move and tons to work with.

I can see her still using her saintly powers for good, at least sometimes...when of course she's not sowing chaos in Midnight's name. I'm killing that Cardinal, though. Mark my words.

Buddy76
2016-09-10, 02:49 PM
Cancer Mage seems to fit the character concept very well (just make her immune to the unpleasant cosmetic effects, if you want her to retain a saintly image). It doesn't advance caster level, however. Maybe take the first two levels for the pestilence fluff?

TheBrassDuke
2016-09-11, 10:03 AM
Cancer Mage seems to fit the character concept very well (just make her immune to the unpleasant cosmetic effects, if you want her to retain a saintly image). It doesn't advance caster level, however. Maybe take the first two levels for the pestilence fluff?

Maybe, but I'm not too keen on her losing caster levels...

You never know, though. She doesn't have to rely solely on her prayers; she has a rapier, for crying out loud, and a powerful Saint Template. I've also given her Leadership, and so she probably has a small cult, too...perhaps the loss of caster levels would be worth it?

Buddy76
2016-09-11, 02:50 PM
You'd be trading power for flavor. If you want her to be really formidable in combat, it might not be the best idea. But hey, if she has leadership, maybe her cohort could be a cancer mage?

TheBrassDuke
2016-09-11, 04:17 PM
You'd be trading power for flavor. If you want her to be really formidable in combat, it might not be the best idea. But hey, if she has leadership, maybe her cohort could be a cancer mage?

That's a possibility. For her evil allies, she's got (all around level 10, except the last):

- An Elven Hexblade
- An Elven Evoker
- A Human Enchantress

- An Unholy Scion Sorcerer/Entropomancer (had to rework the PrC requirements and spell progression; this boy serves as the Shadow Goddess's "Famine" to Eleisa's "Pestilence/Conquest")

A Cancer Mage seems appropriate for her cohort

Yogibear41
2016-09-11, 07:17 PM
I have a CE cleric with an "anti" saint template basically just swapped all instances of good with evil and vice versa. So you could just do the same thing. But if a good deity gave you the template and you fell said deity could easily take it away.

TheBrassDuke
2016-09-12, 09:21 AM
I have a CE cleric with an "anti" saint template basically just swapped all instances of good with evil and vice versa. So you could just do the same thing. But if a good deity gave you the template and you fell said deity could easily take it away.

I've gone over the template already, and converted all the [good] descriptors with [evil], switched out SLA's, and everything else, but I'm not sure if I'll use the altered template; while it seems the best course of action, Creation did bestow a part of Her being into Eleisa, and so she may just wear the original template with shame.

Yogibear41
2016-09-12, 05:22 PM
Well if it was bestowed directly by a deity, I would probably say said deity would take it away then, unless for some reason they couldn't (which I don't see why a deity couldn't, but then again your deities might work differently)

TheBrassDuke
2016-09-15, 08:38 AM
The canon in our campaign is that the Goddess Creation was secured with an "Imprisonment" spell when she manifested on the Prime during the Era of Dragons--by said dragons, for protection. When they up and left the Prime, it's a running gag with Midnight (the Shadow) that they "forgot" her.

Today, she is still imprisoned, but her consciousness can still travel somewhat, and she can bestow gifts upon the faithful, but I'm not sure if she'd take away Eleisa's saintly powers; after all, part of Midnight's goal will be to set the Goddess free, so that they might face off one last time. Eleisa will need this power to see it done.