+2 / +2 / resilient (wis); Levels 5, 13, 15; In what order???

[Corran]

Regarding a character's main stat bumps, I've often read in this forum that prioritizing them is usually the best option. On the other hand, I've read that if a feat is very rewarding, you can postpone your main stat bumps, as a 16 is usually good enough to carry you up to level X, or that an 18 is good enough to carry you up to level Y. This ofc has everything to do with what value you get out of the feat in question, and with the build in question itself. Which brings me to....

.... the resilient feat. More specifically, I have resilient wisdom in mind. Usually it is best advised to take this feat at a relatively high level so that you can make better use of it due to a high proficiency bonus. Then again, I've read many times that slippery mind (rogue feature that grants wis save prof, gained at rogue lvl 15) is not all that good, as proficiency in such a crucial save comes into play for a rogue so late in the game.

TL:DR
I have a specific dpr/tank in mind (essentially a very straightforward fighter/rogue multiclass). The build plays as a dedicated frontliner, focused on both damage and tanking. For that reason, I value resilient wis quite a lot (so I will count on resilient wis rather than slippery mind), but stat bumps are undeniably of significant value too (especially after levels 9 and 11, at which levels dpr is significantly boosted). So with every other choice pretty much fixed, what I ask, is how to prioritize 2 dex bumps and resilient wis, when the levels upon which I can take them are the following: 5, 13, 15. My first thought was +2 dex at 5th level, resilient wisdom at 13th level, and +2 dex at 15th level. Thoughts? (am I risking too much by delaying resilient wis by that much? Is boosting my dex worth of that risk?)
ps: starting wisdom score is 13.

[PeteNutButter]

Just bump dex. Wisdom saves are an occasional thing in which it may or may not suck if you fail them. Most give a save every round too.

You will use dex for every attack roll and every damage roll and several skills. I'm hoping you have an odd wisdom to get that +1 as well to both the save and skills like perception. If not, don't even bother.

You get indomitable at fighter 9 if you are heading that way.

EDIT: It's best if you give stats and level breakdown so people can help you best.

[rudy]

Honestly, the answer depends a lot on party composition. If your party has options to break enchantments on you and such, I would agree on your plan to take the +2 first, and the resilient (wis) 2nd.

What I'm more curious about is the fact that it's impossible to make a fighter / rogue build with that few feats. What happened to the rest?

[Corran]

Just bump dex. Wisdom saves are an occasional thing in which it may or may not suck if you fail them. Most give a save every round too.

You will use dex for every attack roll and every damage roll and several skills. I'm hoping you have an odd wisdom to get that +1 as well to both the save and skills like perception. If not, don't even bother.
Yeah, wisdom is an odd score (13) intentionally. Perhaps I am overestimating the danger of failing wisdom saves, but then again I am very wary of fears effects (which target wisdom) as they would deny me sneak attack (which is the bulk of my damage), not to mention that every round I am denied an action (attacking) would be considerably bad (given that I am denied both my functions, which is to both deal damage and to tank). Anyway, your input makes me think that at lest as far as the 5th level feat/ASI selection goes, I would be better off with boosting dex, even if that means postponing resilient at least up to level 13 (or 15).


You get indomitable at fighter 9 if you are heading that way.

EDIT: It's best if you give stats and level breakdown so people can help you best.
I am a bit worried that if I do share the build, the conversation will stray from what I am mainly interested about, which is how to solve the feat/ASI progression, and it will instead revolve on alternative ways go about the build.
I would be ofc very happy to hear suggestions about the build itself, though I think this thread is not the right place. Anyway, for anyone that is interested, here is a brief summary.
Sentinel rogue. Vuman. Stats: STR 12, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 8. Battlemaster 6 / Arcane trickster 14 (or sth along those lines). Athletics (exp), Intimidation (exp), stealth, sleight of hand, perception, one more skill and two more choices for expertise (probably pick 2 of stealth, sleight of hand and perception).
Level breakdown:
Fighter 1 --> Rogue 5 --> fighter 3 --> rogue 7 --> fighter 5 --> rogue 14 --> fighter 6.
Feats/ASIs: 1) Shield master, 5) +2 dex(?), 11) sentinel, 13) resilient (wis)(?), 15) +2 dex(?), 17) +2 con, 20) +2 con (or even pick a feat or two instead of the 2 con buffs - haven't put much thought into it).
Purpose: Set up this character in such a way to make the best use of sentinel: I tried to achieve this by going for a good AC (S&B, defense fs, blur) and for the riposte maneuvre, hoping that being difficult to get hit and having the option to riposte, would be enough to counteract the agro due to sentinel. Familiar if there to grant me advantage on off-turn attacks, shield master and eventually extra attack and reliable talent (athletics, along with expertise) are there to boost the damage I inflict during my turn (feinting as a back up when having disadvantage and shoving seems like a bad idea), action surge is used with blur to allow me not miss the opportunity to attack even when casting (alternatively, I can use it when I miss during my turn, so that I wont lose the opportunity to inflict sneak attack, this assumes that I didnt cast anything during this fight), precision helps along my dpr too when/if needed.
Well, that's the basic thought anyways. Initially I had planned for wis save prof from slippery mind, but it came in play too late (about level 18 with my initial planning), so I was forced to rework a few things (multiclass split, level progression, the stats, and the race eventually -which at first was either a stout halfling or an earth genasi), so that I could afford to squeeze resilient wis earlier somewhere along my level progression).

Warning: If anyone went through the trouble of reading this spoiler, please dont derail this thread by suggesting ideas about this build, as I only want a very specific answer to the very specific question I asked in the op. This thread is the wrong place for that. If you however want to discuss aspects of this build, I am more than happy to do so, so you could either start a new thread, or post to an old thread I discussed this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496792-Theorycrafting-sentinel-rogue) -though at this point this might be considered thread necromancy, or just PM me.



Honestly, the answer depends a lot on party composition. If your party has options to break enchantments on you and such, I would agree on your plan to take the +2 first, and the resilient (wis) 2nd.

What I'm more curious about is the fact that it's impossible to make a fighter / rogue build with that few feats. What happened to the rest?
This build is not intended for actual play, at least not for the forseeable future (I am playing another character atm, and have one or two back up ideas that I would like to try before giving this build a character and a chance). So not much of a party to speak off right now. I was mostly enquiring from a theoritical point of view.
Level progression is a bit hard on ASIs, allowing me wth very few choices during the first half of the way. So ASIs/feats will probably be taken at these levels (1 if vuman, 5, 11, 13, 15, 17, 20), and I consider the 11 ASI fixed for sth else other than dex boosts or resilient. So what I did, was to put the pressure on ASIs/feats in order to get the level progression I desired.

[PeteNutButter]

In most circumstances boosting core stat to 20 will be better before boosting wisdom saves. Offense > defense and since a minority of foes out of the MM will hit you with wisdom saves it just makes sense.

But of course if you are in a campaign where wisdom saves are expected in nearly every fight...

Build looks solid though. Add it to the build bench. I know mine is pretty heavy at the moment.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Generally speaking, stats are the most important thing for casters and melee dex characters. As you're a melee dex character, I would nab dex ASAP. The problem with Resilient: WIS is that it's a niche ability. It's a really important niche ability, but DEX is more important. Over time, it will entirely prevent many of the sort of attacks you're hoping to mitigate with a defensive feat, on top of its obvious offensive options.

Of course, with any dex-based character with rogue levels I'm always tempted to suggest Mobile. I see that your build makes less use of it, what with the front-lining, but even with a melee focused build you'll find that you can kite some things to death just with that feat, Cunning Action, and a longbow.

Spoiler as to avoid derailing. Any reason the level 5 ASI is where you decided to slot dex or resilient, and not sentinel? It feels a bit arbitrary; either Sentinel is more important or DEX/resilient is. Also, you don't get a second attack until level 12, but I'll stop there.

[JellyPooga]

Just bump dex. Wisdom saves are an occasional thing

In most circumstances boosting core stat to 20 will be better before boosting wisdom saves. Offense > defense and since a minority of foes out of the MM will hit you with wisdom saves it just makes sense.

Generally speaking, stats are the most important thing for casters and melee dex characters. As you're a melee dex character, I would nab dex ASAP. The problem with Resilient: WIS is that it's a niche ability.

DON'T LISTEN TO THEM!

Failing a Wisdom save is bad news. Yes, most of them give you a second attempt, but largely speaking if you're targeted by something with a Wis save to negate and fail it, you won't get a second chance to attempt it if you're up against half-way smart foes (and most foes that can target you with Wis effects are much more than just half-way). At least in my experience. As a Rogue Dex-type character, if you get locked down by the likes of Hold Person or a fear effect, you're grade-A up the creek between a rock and a hard place and right against the ropes. You don't want to be there.

Wis Save proficiency is a significant improvement to your defences; even taken at the very lowest level it's effectively +3 to your Wis Save (+2 proficiency bonus +1 for the Wis score improvement). Improving Dex, by comparison, is only a +1 for the same investment, albeit in a slew of different offensive, defensive and utility abilities. You won't miss delaying that +1, but you will miss that +3 when you're stuck in place being auto-crit by a bunch of Bugbears (side-track: what's the collective noun for Bugbears? A Terror? A Darkness? A Wardrobe?).

Grab Resilient as a priority, not only for the Save proficiency, but bumping from a +1 to +2 mod is a nice little Perception boost too :smallwink:

[PeteNutButter]

DON'T LISTEN TO THEM!

Failing a Wisdom save is bad news. Yes, most of them give you a second attempt, but largely speaking if you're targeted by something with a Wis save to negate and fail it, you won't get a second chance to attempt it if you're up against half-way smart foes (and most foes that can target you with Wis effects are much more than just half-way). At least in my experience. As a Rogue Dex-type character, if you get locked down by the likes of Hold Person or a fear effect, you're grade-A up the creek between a rock and a hard place and right against the ropes. You don't want to be there.

Wis Save proficiency is a significant improvement to your defences; even taken at the very lowest level it's effectively +3 to your Wis Save (+2 proficiency bonus +1 for the Wis score improvement). Improving Dex, by comparison, is only a +1 for the same investment, albeit in a slew of different offensive, defensive and utility abilities. You won't miss delaying that +1, but you will miss that +3 when you're stuck in place being auto-crit by a bunch of Bugbears (side-track: what's the collective noun for Bugbears? A Terror? A Darkness? A Wardrobe?).

Grab Resilient as a priority, not only for the Save proficiency, but bumping from a +1 to +2 mod is a nice little Perception boost too :smallwink:

I can't think a 15% better shot on the occasional wisdom save compares to the EVERY attack and damage roll.

You will make attack rolls in every fight. You will not make wisdom saves in even half of them. Even in those fights, higher dex could mean killing the foe faster either before you are hit with the effect or after you ultimately make the save. Broader use = more useful.

IMO get offense down then start shoring up weaknesses. Resilient is not worth taking until you have at least +3 proficiency (except con for concentration needs).

[Corran]

In most circumstances boosting core stat to 20 will be better before boosting wisdom saves. Offense > defense and since a minority of foes out of the MM will hit you with wisdom saves it just makes sense.

Generally speaking, stats are the most important thing for casters and melee dex characters. As you're a melee dex character, I would nab dex ASAP. The problem with Resilient: WIS is that it's a niche ability. It's a really important niche ability, but DEX is more important. Over time, it will entirely prevent many of the sort of attacks you're hoping to mitigate with a defensive feat, on top of its obvious offensive options.
Hmmm, that makes sense, I guess. Still, I have some doubts about postponing resilient until 15, but perhaps at this point this is more due to unjustifiable worry than rational thinking on my part. It is just that I would see a typically optimized battlemaster (who would essentially play a very similar role to the build in question, ie inflict damage and tank the frontline) take resilient wis at level 12, and for this abstract reason I think that I should not delay it a lot more than that (as if thinking the the MM was designed to have that in mind, I know, no chance of that), and besides, 13 is a very nice level for resilient with the prof bonus increasing exactly at that point. And since by that time I would have the extra attack and possibly advantage too (most likely from shoving), and considering the rogue only needs to strike once for delivering the bulk of the damage (sneak attack), I think that perhaps I could justify delaying the second dex bump until level 15. But this is me obsessing over nothing (or rather over very minor details). Anyway, I think that the answers I got so far has persuaded me that a dex bump is the best choice for the 5 level ASI, and that was my main dilemma.
ps: Then again, raising my dex from 18 to 20 would increase my AC from 19 to 20 (as opposed to raising my dex from 16 to 18 which results in no AC increase), and I really need AC for this build to work effectively. So there is that to consider too.



Of course, with any dex-based character with rogue levels I'm always tempted to suggest Mobile. I see that your build makes less use of it, what with the front-lining, but even with a melee focused build you'll find that you can kite some things to death just with that feat, Cunning Action, and a longbow.
Yeah, this one plays a bit differently, so not much call for mobile. Though I will probably be able to rely on BB and cunning action, in case I need to ever change tactics. But I expect this to happen rarely.


Spoiler as to avoid derailing. Any reason the level 5 ASI is where you decided to slot dex or resilient, and not sentinel? It feels a bit arbitrary; either Sentinel is more important or DEX/resilient is. Also, you don't get a second attack until level 12, but I'll stop there.
I havent seen a sentinel rogue in play, but from what I have come to think about it, it is a very dangerous choice. Meaning that a rogue who takes sentinel, without being built in a way to counteract the focus, asks for death. I debated myself on if I should get sentinel earlier, but in the end I thought that I should probably first be done with my countermeasures that would essentially act in the opposite way of sentinel (sentinel draws attention, a good AC and riposte do the exact opposite, so they balance out the danger of having sentinel on a rogue). Given that I ended up with a dex build due to wanting this character to be able to use stealth (the other choice was to be a str build for better AC and athletics), I instictively decided that an AC of 19 and riposte are not good enough on their own to counter the attention due to having sentinel, so I opted for getting blur, to both increase the viability of the sentinel choice, but more importantly the frequency with which I use sentinel, as it will be less likely to attack me if I have an AC 19 and riposte and disadvantage due to blur, than having the same safe for blur. So with that in mind, I opted for fighter3/rogue7, and for sentinel to be taken right after that, ie at level 11. Besides, sentinel works better the more sneak attack dice you have, so delaying it till I got several rogue levels made sense too. Not to mention that level 11 is generally a nice point for builds to ''step up'', and sentinel does exactly that for this build (as it is a resource-free riposte).
That is also the reason the extra attack is delayed. Initially I hadnt even planned for the extra attack, and in fact I am still not exactly sure if I should prioritize it over reliable talent and better sneak attack progression (as if you look more closely, you will see that the dpr of this build would be better benefited by taking more rogue levels after sentinel, than going for the extra attack (have in mind that the build is designed in such a way, to try and have advantage on attacks constantly). But there is an extra safety net regarding the extra attack, particularly when something imposes disadvantage on my attacks (another rare danger which I have a great fear off, just like wis saves), so I decided to include it (this decision was partly made because I decided to get wis prof from the feat, rather than from slippery mind which would come in play very late according to my initial planning, ie level 18, so that made me drop rogue to 14 (in order to to have any overlap between resilient wis and slippery mind), so I had to find a way to fill the rest levels, and thus why fighter 5 (although I have to admit it works pretty well). But yeah, extra attack was postponed due to how I wanted fighter3/rogue7 asap fro riposte and blur, so that I can take sentinel and use it ''safely'' asap (level 11) and effectively (need rogue levels for that, so I restricted fighter to the abolutely necessary minimum amount, ie level 3 for riposte). And I thought that shield master, familiar, and at the worst case scenario (since it burns resources) feinting, would be enough to make up for the lack of one more attack (as attacking with advantage is more or less the same as attacking twice, as far as a rogue is conceened). And there is always precision to help me avoid losing too many sneak attack opportunities.

[Corran]

.....
Failing a Wisdom save is bad news.
.....

I find it of great help to equate the dilemma I have for this buid (regarding resilient wis and the stat bumps), with what woud be considered the optimal ASI/feat selection for a GWM battlemaster for some reason. That is probably because I consider both a battlemaster and the build I have in mind to serve pretty much the same function during combat (dpr/tank-ish).
So, if it woud be optimal for the battlemaster to postpone the resilient wis till level 12, then I will pretty much assume the same for the build in question (so that means taking a dex bump at 5). If level 8 is a better choice for resilient wis for the battlemaster, thus postponing his offensive focus, essentially because level 12 is too late, I would be of half a mind to take resilient wis at 5 (or at least go back to the drawing board and rethink my level progression to facilitate my feat/ASI selection).

So, if you were to play a GWM battlemaster, would you prioritize resilient to say, +2 str or PAM (generally would you prioritize it to a feat/ASI that helps with your offense, ie attack damage, maneuvre DC, etc)?
And generally, what would you consider the ideal level(s), at which a melee character should look to take resilient wis? (That last bit might help me a lot if I go about thinking the level progression all over again).

Edit: I mean, there is a lot being said about how one should not rush feats like resilient, as they work better at higher levels due to how the proficiency bonus grows, but at which point do you decide that it is time to tie up that saving throw before getting into serious trouble?

[JellyPooga]

...at which point do you decide that it is time to tie up that saving throw before getting into serious trouble?

Well, Hold Person comes online at level 5 and for that alone I, personally, would want that Wis Save proficiency. It's also around the time, I've found, that GM's start ramping up the frequency of spellslingers to fight. PeteNutButter has a good point about using Dex every round vs. using Wis Saves every now and then, but for me it's a case of a minor bonus frequently vs. a life-saving one when you really need it. It's a tough call, I think, but I know which side of the fence I'd rather be on and most of the time that's the one that survives rather than shines.

[PeteNutButter]

Well, Hold Person comes online at level 5 and for that alone I, personally, would want that Wis Save proficiency. It's also around the time, I've found, that GM's start ramping up the frequency of spellslingers to fight. PeteNutButter has a good point about using Dex every round vs. using Wis Saves every now and then, but for me it's a case of a minor bonus frequently vs. a life-saving one when you really need it. It's a tough call, I think, but I know which side of the fence I'd rather be on and most of the time that's the one that survives rather than shines.

You got it right, JellyPooga. It ultimately comes down to a preference. I tend to build strong characters that have their fun as powerful offensive machines, but still have a few Achilles heels. That way the party has to step up when I'm paralyzed or feared etc and do work.

So if want to be like Batman, and prepared for everything that's another way to enjoy the game. It is certainly satisfying when you get hit with an ability that you specifically built to counter. I on the other hand, just prefer to be stronger at my normal job of killing crap, at least first.