Help me optimize a fiendish bladelock please

[Klorox]

I think I have found my favorite class in 5e.

My goals are to create a character who will advance from levels 5-10 (maybe higher), who can melee and can cast the following spells (my favorites): minor illusion, shield, misty step, counterspell.

I have read about a fighter 1/warlock X, and I think this will work. If I want the shield spell, I'll either need to add in a level of sorcerer or two more levels of fighter (for eldritch knight). I will probably be fine without the shield spell though, because the fiend pact warlock can easily gain temporary HP, as well as deal damage when he gets hit.

Does anybody have any advice on race/class combos? I'm open to anything really.

27 point buy. TIA

[Gastronomie]

Does anybody have any advice on race/class combos? I'm open to anything really.

27 point buy. TIAHalf-Elf
Original Stats: 15-8-15-8-10-14
After Bonuses: 16-8-16-8-10-16

Variant Human
Original Stats: 15-8-14-8-10-15
After Bonuses: 16-8-14-8-10-16
(Great Weapon Master)

Your best bet is to go Darkness+Devil's Sight and GWM for striking in massive damage. You gain advantage on all your attacks and bestow disadvantage on all attacks aimed for you, and don't get targeted by enemy spells.

Take Fiendish Vigor, it works. It seems like it overlaps with Dark One's Blessing but it doesn't.

Armor of Agathys is meh at low levels, but once you get a level 4 or 5 slot it starts to get gravy. Take it at around Warlock 7 or 9.

For spells, these are awesome:

-Command on 5 targets
-Hold Person on 4 targets
-Invisibility on 4 targets
-Fly on 4 targets
-Fireball +2d6
-Banishment on 2 targets

Mirror Image is good at low levels. At higher levels, Agathys is generally better.

I think that's about it for now.

[PeteNutButter]

If you expect to see higher warlock levels > lifedrinker. It's pretty helpful to get PAM. Having a bonus action attack really benefits with adding str and cha. Plus a chance at opportunity attack makes it even better.

[Klorox]

If you expect to see higher warlock levels > lifedrinker. It's pretty helpful to get PAM. Having a bonus action attack really benefits with adding str and cha. Plus a chance at opportunity attack makes it even better.

This will be played in Storm King, so the adventure goes to around level 10. I have been told, if we survive, there will be a chance to continue the characters in another game.

Is the Dragonborn a bad option? I'm in no way attached to one, but I did this it was a cool idea.

[Klorox]

Is a mono classed mountain dwarf decent? First feat could be heavy armor mastery.

[NecroDancer]

Dragonborn is pretty good for w strength build. There was also a build that relied on taking damage and responding with fire shield, armor of agathys and hellish rebuke

[PeteNutButter]

Is a mono classed mountain dwarf decent? First feat could be heavy armor mastery.

Mountain Dwarf wouldn't be bad. It'd kind of negate the need for fighter levels, since he gets medium armor prof as a racial. Obviously you'd still need a heavy armor class if you wanted to use heavy armor mastery. Alternatively since he starts with medium armor all set, you could take heavily armored at level 4 and dump dex without taking the MC, and be full casting. AC would be crud until you got to level 4 though.

[EvilAnagram]

Is a mono classed mountain dwarf decent? First feat could be heavy armor mastery.
Your first four levels, your casting will lag behind, but you'll be solid otherwise.

Starting Stats:
14+2, 14, 12+2, 8, 8, 15

You're going to be fairly beastly in melee with a 16 AC, constant temp HP, and Warlock shenanigans. The Devil's Sight/Darkness combo will be pretty important to you, so yay for that. At level 4 and 8, you should pump up Cha, possibly with a feat, and then go crazy. If you're starting at 5, it's a pretty awesome choice.

Dragonborn gives you less Con than Mountain Dwarf, which is not ideal, but the Cha boost is nice. Its breath weapon isn't terrible, but it's not super great, either. The resistance is solid, but so is the dwarf's. Your mileage may vary.

[Gastronomie]

This will be played in Storm King, so the adventure goes to around level 10. I have been told, if we survive, there will be a chance to continue the characters in another game.

Is the Dragonborn a bad option? I'm in no way attached to one, but I did this it was a cool idea.Original Stats: 15-8-14-8-10-15
After Bonuses: 17-8-14-8-10-16

Or STR start 14, DEX start 10. Not bad. The problem is that Bladelocks badly need both GWM and War Caster to work, so if you want the build to already start moving at level 5 you should go Variant Human. That, or ask your DM if it's reasonable to ban Variant Human and give everyone an extra feat at level 1 (my tables do this).


Is a mono classed mountain dwarf decent? First feat could be heavy armor mastery.No it's not decent, sadly it's bad because wasting an ASI is bad, and so is not having proficiency in CON saves. You want to keep that concentration on Darkness, or Hold Person, or Polymorph, or whatever you happen to be concentrating on at the time.

[EvilAnagram]

The problem is that Bladelocks badly need both GWM and War Caster to work, so if you want the build to already start moving at level 5 you should go Variant Human.
This is not true. Bladelocks excell with GWM, sure, but War Caster isn't necessary unless you're using a shield. You can hold a great weapon in one hand and cast with the other. This was clarified by both Mearls and Crawford.


No it's not decent, sadly it's bad because wasting an ASI is bad, and so is not having proficiency in CON saves. You want to keep that concentration on Darkness, or Hold Person, or Polymorph, or whatever you happen to be concentrating on at the time.
It's not really wasting an ASI. You don't need much in the way of feats for this build to work, maybe GWM, and if your focus is on casting Darkness and stabbing things, your casting stat can be low for a few levels.

[Gastronomie]

This is not true. Bladelocks excell with GWM, sure, but War Caster isn't necessary unless you're using a shield. You can hold a great weapon in one hand and cast with the other. This was clarified by both Mearls and Crawford.

It's not really wasting an ASI. You don't need much in the way of feats for this build to work, maybe GWM, and if your focus is on casting Darkness and stabbing things, your casting stat can be low for a few levels.I know about the official rulings, but in my experience, War Caster is required, not for the free hand but for keeping concentration on Darkness or whatever. You're on the frontlines. You need it to hang on.

As for Heavily Armored, I think it's "wasting an ASI", not because you need a "lot" of Feats for this build to work, but because going Fighter 1 first is strictly a better option. If you go Dwarf+Pure Warlock you don't get proficiency in CON saves and neither do you get War Caster, making your concentration saves really, really terrible. Regardless of whether your CHA should be high or low, your STR certainly is important for any GWM build (or you can alternatively take Sword Mastery from UA, but anyways), so ASIs should not be wasted either way.

I don't see any merits in going Dwarf+Pure Warlock. Not that it's unusable but it's not optimized. The TC wants an optimized Bladelock.

[EvilAnagram]

I know about the official rulings, but in my experience, War Caster is required, not for the free hand but for keeping concentration on Darkness or whatever. You're on the frontlines. You need it to hang on.

As for Heavily Armored, I think it's "wasting an ASI", not because you need a "lot" of Feats for this build to work, but because going Fighter 1 first is strictly a better option. If you go Dwarf+Pure Warlock you don't get proficiency in CON saves and neither do you get War Caster, making your concentration saves really, really terrible. Regardless of whether your CHA should be high or low, your STR certainly is important for any GWM build (or you can alternatively take Sword Mastery from UA, but anyways), so ASIs should not be wasted either way.

I don't see any merits in going Dwarf+Pure Warlock. Not that it's unusable but it's not optimized. The TC wants an optimized Bladelock.
Why would you need Heavily Armored? You can net a 17 AC with basic dwarf features and half-plate. I think GWM, War Caster, or Resilient Con are all fine feats, but you really only need one of them, plus a boost to either Cha or Str.

[Gastronomie]

Why would you need Heavily Armored? You can net a 17 AC with basic dwarf features and half-plate.
Is a mono classed mountain dwarf decent? First feat could be heavy armor mastery.^ I think the TC means Heavily armored here, not Heavy Armor Master, because a single class Warlock with Mountain Dwarf can only get up to medium armor. Also, it's really difficult to get that high DEX with point-buy, unless you're going DEX... but honestly, I think STR builds with GWM are much better and also well synergized with Darkness.

I think GWM, War Caster, or Resilient Con are all fine feats, but you really only need one of them, plus a boost to either Cha or Str.You might be able to create a Bladelock build with just one of them, but IMO that's not "optimized" (what the TC wants). In my view you should have all of "CON save prof", "advantage on concentration saves", and "GWM" to be considered an "optimized" Bladelock.

Of course I might be wrong, I haven't actually used a build without any of those three abilities because I'm afraid it wouldn't work. But one thing for sure is that all the Bladelock builds I've used with all those three core abilities certainly were hell amazing and fun to use.

[Toadkiller]

I had fun with one level of favored sorcerer. Get some AC and more cantrips. But I don't know that it is "optimized". You kind of have to decide what you want to optimize for before you can do it.

[Citan]

I think I have found my favorite class in 5e.

My goals are to create a character who will advance from levels 5-10 (maybe higher), who can melee and can cast the following spells (my favorites): minor illusion, shield, misty step, counterspell.

I have read about a fighter 1/warlock X, and I think this will work. If I want the shield spell, I'll either need to add in a level of sorcerer or two more levels of fighter (for eldritch knight). I will probably be fine without the shield spell though, because the fiend pact warlock can easily gain temporary HP, as well as deal damage when he gets hit.

Does anybody have any advice on race/class combos? I'm open to anything really.

27 point buy. TIA
Hi!
Others before me have given some nice ideas. :)
If you just want Shield, better go Sorcerer 1 than EK 3. Especially if UA content is allowed, because Shadow Sorcerer is borderline broken.
Although if you don't care so much about Warlock progression, EK 3 can be good because of Action Surge. But 3 levels delay seems a bit much to me for your build.
So I'd say try without dipping more than Fighter 1, then watch as you go if you survive well enough as is or if Shield would really make a difference.

Apart from that, a STR-based GWM build would certainly work well with you, since you seem to concentrate on non-CHA dependent, non-concentration spells. So you could just bump STR to the max and grab feats, while keeping CHA at 16. Others may have a different opinion, but in my view, once you already get a +10 on any hit, a +1/2 bump because or Warlock's 14 won't make as much a difference as feats such as Mobile, Resilient, Sentinel or Mage Slayer for example. And you will already need 4 ASI just to enable the build anyways (+2 STR, +2 STR, GWM, Polearm Master) so you won't ever max CHA. Might as well enhance your martial aspect even more. :)

Another way to go at it though would be a Dex build with variant human, if SCAG content is allowed.

Take Warcaster as your starting feat.
STR 8, DEX 15(+1), CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15(+1).
Start Warlock (or Fighter, explained below).
Grab Fighter 1 for shield proficiency.
Grab Shadow Sorcerer 1 (if allowed) or Draconic Sorcerer 1 (free Mage Armor) for additional melee weapon cantrips and Shield, Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb.
Go Blade Warlock as planned.

You can wield a Rapier and a Shield. Using Mage Armor, you now have 18 AC. You can stack Mariner Fighting Style (best choice if available) or Dueling.
Because you have a good DEX, you will survive more AOE spells.
Because you have Warcaster, you will have a pretty decent chance to keep concentration on any spell you want.
Because you have Warcaster, you can wield a shield and still cast spells. And you can use Booming Blade as OA.

To be honest, since you seem interested in mainly spells that don't rely on CHA, you could even lower it to bump others, unless you are pretty sure you go up to lvl 14 Warlock. Or grab feats that help you even more: Mobile, Resilient, Lucky, Mage Slayer, Shield Master.

And since you have access to weapon cantrips, once you hit lvl 5 it becomes competitive with Extra Attack, and at character lvl 11 it beats it.
So you could even, instead of taking Blade Pact, go Tome Pact and grab Shillelagh. This way you can just bump CHA and still be efficient, and because you use quarterstaff you could grab Polearm Master (would require you to drop the shield though to use bonus action, I think). IF your DM agrees that the Warcaster + Polearm Master combination works (aka you can use Warcaster when enemy enters your reach), this becomes the best choice.

And I advise on starting Warlock because of your inclination towards non-concentration spells, meaning advantage on concentration checks (Warcaster) should be enough, and this way you get a good save against nasty Wisdom spells.


This build will deal lesser damage than a GWM + Polearm master because Polearm Master gives bonus action (although it will be compensated by Booming Blade on OA), but you will be much more resilient overall and can rely more on concentration spells: as good AC as heavy armor, better initiative, DEX saves and WIS saves, mobility and stealth, advantage on concentration. From an optimization point of view, is a good choice if you want a balanced build. Sure, you won't kill as fast, but you will sustain less damage in return (especially from AOE spells) between your turns so chances are you will stand longer in the end. You also get an attack as powerful as GWM off-turn (Booming Blade as OA replacement) which can help replenish THP.

For pure damage though, the STR-bladelock is the way to go, because of GWM+Extra Attack+Polearm Master bonus attack action, with Hex triggering on each attack. You can also get yourself an advantage without Darkness/Darkvision combo (which would mean no Hex by the way): just gives disadvantage on STR or DEX checks (you will have to guess -or know- which of the both the creature is best at). Combined with your own STR, you should be able to prone it easily enough, meaning advantage on all subsequent attacks.

[Lollerabe]

I really think the Vhuman fighter1/fiend lock 9 starting with PAM is the way to go, at lvl 5 you can grab a str bump or GWM as you see fit but PAM is the better starting feat.

At char lvl 6 with hex up and 18 strength (assuming you ditch GWM) you are looking at 2d10 + 1d4 + 3d6 + 12 damg with hex up, the round where you apply hex you can eldritch blast for 2d10 + 2d6 +6 (assuming 16 charisma and agonizing blast) from range - that's... A lot of damg. I have a guy in my group with that build and he just wrecks, nvm that he can throw out fireballs on top of that as well.

[Asmotherion]

with a simple bladelock you can acomplish a lot of dammage alone...

A) If you want a huge dammage booster 3 times per short rest, consider dipping 2 paladin... You can refluff your paladin as a paladin of asmodeus (as of 5e officially a deity... at least in the forgoten realms). With divine smite you get a huge bonus to dammage, and the fact you can get a fighting style is just topping on an already awesome ice cream. You won't be casting any other spells except from Hex through your spell slots though, but you don't really care. The Blade Warlock and the Paladin also happen to share Dex (or Str if you're into that) and Cha as abilities to focus on, wich is also very convinient.

B) Never go in battle without casting Hex first. This will give you 1 extra d6 per hit if you focus on one opponent, wich will kinda be your thing.

C) For a nice balance, start with Eldrich Blast and Booming Blade. Remember eldrich blast gives you the option to go ranged, and in general is arguably the best cantrip in the game... if you are a warlock, don't waste it) Then get yourself green-flame blade and Shocking Grasp (you might be in dire need to cast a spell and the heavy armored guy attacking you not giving you the chance to do so... why not hit him with advantage and steal his reaction in one go?)

D) Since you're a bladelock, I won't suggest the usual Agonising & Repelling blast invocation combo... I will only highly recomend it and leave you with it. Other than that, your bladelock capstone is comming at 12th level, so it's out of your parameters. Don't miss your second attack (through the invocation) and chain it with polearm master to get 4 attacks (4 chances to apply hex+4 chances to use divine smite... not bad)

E) If you really can spare the space (wich, at low levels like that you can't), Sorcerer 3 is gold... You can quicken booming blade, apply hex to it, activate divine smite, and all of that twice... Just a honorable mention in case the scenario goes on above lv10

[Klorox]

Thanks for all the help guys. Keep it up!

What does TC mean?

[Gastronomie]

Thanks for all the help guys. Keep it up!

What does TC mean?Topic Creator.

[Klorox]

Also, is PAM required to max out the damage?

I was thinking GWM helps me get the temporary HP since I'll be dropping enemies quicker, but PAM competes with my bonus action of moving the hex and the extra attack I gain on a critical hit or when an enemy is dropped.

I'm not against PAM, I just want to establish that it's needed.

[Citan]

Also, is PAM required to max out the damage?

I was thinking GWM helps me get the temporary HP since I'll be dropping enemies quicker, but PAM competes with my bonus action of moving the hex and the extra attack I gain on a critical hit or when an enemy is dropped.

I'm not against PAM, I just want to establish that it's needed.
I'd say it's not "strictly required" per say, rather "too good to pass on if you can afford it"... Meaning I'd rather see it as complementing Hex instead of eating at it.
After all, the bonus action attack of PAM does not require you to direct it towards a specific enemy.
So, for example, you have several enemies which you can potentially kill with 1-2 attacks thanks to GWM bonus. One of them has Hex on it because you determined earlier it was a privileged threat.
Considering that you cannot use a bonus action between your two attacks from Attack action, and that you will probably bash the hexed target first because it's more dangerous than others...

First case: You don't have PAM
- If you're lucky enough to drop your Hexed target with the first attack, you can attack another creature, and maybe kill it. Then you can use a bonus action to hex a new creature (IF the DM waives the RAW interpreation, see below).
- If the case where you had to use both attacks from Attack, then you can just Hex another creature.
Max creatures dropped on your turn: 2

Second case: You don't have PAM
- You manage to kill your Hexed target with the first attack: you can now attack another target with the second attack. If you kill it, you can target a third target, maybe kill it.
- You used your whole Attack to drop the Hexed target. YOu can still attack and maybe kill a second target.
Max creatures dropped on your turn: 3.

Not accounting for the fact that you can sometimes just want to attack other creatures than your Hexed one because a specific situation makes it better to let your allies kill it while you attack others.

Otherwise said, it opens your options so that you can always get the best use for your bonus action.

Also, note that the wording of Hex could be viewed as forcing you to wait the next turn by RAW:
"If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature".
By RAW, if you drop the Hexed creature at your turn T, you can only use a bonus action to hex a new one at T+1. So, if you dropped the creature using only your Attack, unless you had a "bonus action spell" (such as Flaming Sphere) it's a net loss. If you have PAM, it's a net win.
Of course, if you managed to drop the creature in an off-turn thanks to OA, you don't have this problem. ;)

[Gastronomie]

Also, is PAM required to max out the damage?

I was thinking GWM helps me get the temporary HP since I'll be dropping enemies quicker, but PAM competes with my bonus action of moving the hex and the extra attack I gain on a critical hit or when an enemy is dropped.

I'm not against PAM, I just want to establish that it's needed.I don't like Hex on Bladelocks for several reasons:

1. Hex scales terribly. The only way it gets better at high levels is how it increases its, what... duration? What does that even do?

2. You will have only two spells per short rest for most of your career. You should use them wisely.

3. "For spells like Darkness" is what I mean by "use them wisely".

4. Also, Concentration.

Overall Darkness+Devil's Sight+GWM is better than PAM IMO, at least until you get Lifedrinker - which is after Storm King's Thunder is over. And if your character goes that far, you can always go GWM plus PAM, since GWM works on Glaives and Halberds too.

[Zalabim]

Also, note that the wording of Hex could be viewed as forcing you to wait the next turn by RAW:
"If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature".
By RAW, if you drop the Hexed creature at your turn T, you can only use a bonus action to hex a new one at T+1. So, if you dropped the creature using only your Attack, unless you had a "bonus action spell" (such as Flaming Sphere) it's a net loss. If you have PAM, it's a net win.
Of course, if you managed to drop the creature in an off-turn thanks to OA, you don't have this problem. ;)

Alternate RAW, every turn after the turn you cast Hex in the first place is a subsequent turn of yours. Also, you can absolutely use a bonus action to move Hex in between the two attacks allowed by your Attack action. It doesn't violate any timing rules.

Other than that, Polearm Master-y has great synergy with Eldritch Blast since you can easily engage enemies at range, punish them for coming in close, and continue fighting just fine at melee range. If you're using Darkness instead of Hex, any enemy that can't see you can't make OAs against you so it's really easy to just dance out of reach after each of your turns so they can keep provoking more PM OA.

[Lollerabe]

Pretty sure a PAM bladelock has a higher DPR than a GWM bladelock but hey whatever floats your boat.

Gastro the increased duration does a ton for hex, in theory you can keep it up between short rests due to duration. As long as your concentration ain't broken it dosent have a range restriction for reapplying IIRC.

[Citan]

Alternate RAW, every turn after the turn you cast Hex in the first place is a subsequent turn of yours. Also, you can absolutely use a bonus action to move Hex in between the two attacks allowed by your Attack action. It doesn't violate any timing rules.

Other than that, Polearm Master-y has great synergy with Eldritch Blast since you can easily engage enemies at range, punish them for coming in close, and continue fighting just fine at melee range. If you're using Darkness instead of Hex, any enemy that can't see you can't make OAs against you so it's really easy to just dance out of reach after each of your turns so they can keep provoking more PM OA.
Hmmm. You're right, I'm probably mistaken, it must make reference to just the turn you cast it. Thanks for clarification.

On bonus action though, I'm pretty pretty sure to be right. You can MOVE between attacks of Attack, but Attack is an action.
You cannot take a bonus action "in" an action AFAIK.

[EvilAnagram]

Hmmm. You're right, I'm probably mistaken, it must make reference to just the turn you cast it. Thanks for clarification.

On bonus action though, I'm pretty pretty sure to be right. You can MOVE between attacks of Attack, but Attack is an action.
You cannot take a bonus action "in" an action AFAIK.

Crawford has said that you're free to cast a reaction spell *while you are in the process of casting a spell*, so I think attack, bonus action, attack is fair.

[Sir cryosin]

So I had a fun pure bladelock. My dm let me use a homebrewed eldritch invocation
Twin Souls
Prerequisite blade pack lv5
When you summon you pack blade you can summon two finesse or light weapons these weapons act as your pack weapon. You apply any abilitys you can with your pact weapon to these weapons. You also learn the two weapon fighting style.
I went vhuman foe warcaster and took the invocation for free mage armor. I also picked up mobile feat to.

[Gastronomie]

Gastro the increased duration does a ton for hex, in theory you can keep it up between short rests due to duration. As long as your concentration ain't broken it dosent have a range restriction for reapplying IIRC.Well, it's probably a matter of personal liking, but I rarely find my Bladelocks fighting for a long time without using a single concentration spell (be it Darkness or not). Maybe Hex with improved duration can, in theory, be there for you all day - but is it truly worth not using any concentration spells for the whole time? My answer is a no.

It's not that it's bad, I just think Bladelocks are better with Darkness.

Hex probably works better with the Eldritch Blast at higher levels.

[Citan]

Crawford has said that you're free to cast a reaction spell *while you are in the process of casting a spell*, so I think attack, bonus action, attack is fair.
I really don't think it is (I was unaware of this ruling) but I don't want to derail this thread. :) Just wonder what the general opinion of community is on that...

[krunchyfrogg]

So I had a fun pure bladelock. My dm let me use a homebrewed eldritch invocation
Twin Souls
Prerequisite blade pack lv5
When you summon you pack blade you can summon two finesse or light weapons these weapons act as your pack weapon. You apply any abilitys you can with your pact weapon to these weapons. You also learn the two weapon fighting style.
I went vhuman foe warcaster and took the invocation for free mage armor. I also picked up mobile feat to.

proof of pure class bladelocks sucking.

"i had fun with my pure class bladelock... my dm let me make up a new rule"

The fighter level is awesome tho.

TC, check this out: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49851/optimal-dragonborn-warlock-for-dpr-ac-with-blade-pact-and-fiend-patron

[krunchyfrogg]

imo, i say go greatsword and polearms later if you ever get the chance for the feat.

you should probably max out strenght and charisma first though, which means it isn't happening.

vhuman 1: GWM
level 5 (level 4 warlock) str 18
level 9 (level 8 warlock) cha 18
level 13 (level 12 warlcok) cha 20
level 20 (level 19 warlock) str 20

JMO

[Klorox]

That breakdown helps, thank you.

Thanks everybody!