Lowest Tarrasque Kill

[Pichu]

I want to see what all the people out there can do. I challenge you guys out there to try and beat the Tarrasque at the lowest level possible.

Rules:
-Feats are allowed
-No UA Stuff
-No assuming things like the Tarrasque will miss every time with natural 1s or what you will roll on Wild Magic Surge
-You are fighting on a completely flat planet and you two are the only living things there.
-New Rule: Infinite Ammo!

I can do it in 13 levels: Wood Elf Monk 6/Barbarian 5/Rogue 2 with Mobile and Magic Initiate
On your turn you cast Eldritch Blast fire your bow and move 70' and then Bonus Action dash for an extra 70'.

[Black Socks]

I want to see what all the people out there can do. I challenge you guys out there to try and beat the Tarrasque at the lowest level possible.

Rules:
-Feats are allowed
-No UA Stuff
-No assuming things like the Tarrasque will miss every time with natural 1s or what you will roll on Wild Magic Surge
-You are fighting on a completely flat planet and you two are the only living things there.

I can do it in 8 levels: Wood Elf Monk 6/Barbarian 5/Rogue 2 with Mobile and Magic Initiate (Eldritch Blast)
On your turn you cast Eldritch Blast and move 70' and then Bonus Action dash for an extra 70'.
Ummmm....6+5+2=13, not 8.

[gfishfunk]

16.6% of all magic spells would be reflected back, thus you would be taking damage from your own attacks.

Also, consider that with the Tarrasque's AC of 25 and Hp at about 625, something along the lines of a 16-20 would be needed to hit.

I *think* that with those odds, you would end up killing yourself far before you killed the Tarrasque without it ever trying to hurt you.

[fbelanger]

I would keep it alive. Otherwise it will be damned dull on this flat planet!

[TheUser]

I want to see what all the people out there can do. I challenge you guys out there to try and beat the Tarrasque at the lowest level possible.

Rules:
-Feats are allowed
-No UA Stuff
-No assuming things like the Tarrasque will miss every time with natural 1s or what you will roll on Wild Magic Surge
-You are fighting on a completely flat planet and you two are the only living things there.
-New Rule: Infinite Ammo!

I can do it in 13 levels: Wood Elf Monk 6/Barbarian 5/Rogue 2 with Mobile and Magic Initiate
On your turn you cast Eldritch Blast fire your bow and move 70' and then Bonus Action dash for an extra 70'.

Just so you know Tarrasque is immune to ray attacks and will actually reflect them back at you ~16% of the time so your own strat isn't too great.

However! Since ammo is unlimited this becomes easy!
6 Levels:

Level 5 Sorcerer with extended spell.
Level 1 Fighter to get Archery fighting style.
Cast Fly. Shoot Bow. Win.
At level 4 get +2 Dex So you have (I am assuming point buy) 18 Dex which translates to +9 to hit which should be enough to land a hit every couple of rounds.

With extended spell you cast fly lasting 20 minutes twice giving you 40 minutes of flight or specifically 400 rounds of flight (398 of which you can attack if you count the casting rounds).

At +9 to hit you need to roll a 16 to hit which gives you roughly a 25% to land an arrow dealing 1d8+4 damage (average 8.5) This means we'll need ~80 hits or approximately 320 rounds, you even get to ignore Frightful presence by flying above it at over 120 ft (the range of the presence) with your longbow range of 150ft!

[JumboWheat01]

-You are fighting on a completely flat planet and you two are the only living things there.

So no plants or other animals? Well, I'm SOL, win or lose, so doesn't really matter how I try to kill it. I might as well just sell my soul to Asmodeus to just get me off that rock. Let Big T have all the fun it wants with nothing.

[smcmike]

This is basically just a kiting challenge. Are Beastmaster animal companions included in the ban on extra creatures? If so, that's pretty annoying, since they are a class feature. If not, Beastmaster 3 with a riding horse should be able to beat the beast. Acid Splash for the win.

[Pichu]

This is basically just a kiting challenge. Are Beastmaster animal companions included in the ban on extra creatures? If so, that's pretty annoying, since they are a class feature. If not, Beastmaster 3 with a riding horse should be able to beat the beast. Acid Splash for the win.

Allowed. They are a class feature.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Given that the Tarrasque doesn't have regeneration any more, a first level Aaracockra or Winged Tiefling could do it if they had a magic bow or a saving throw cantrip (Sacred Flame would likely be the best, since the sixty foot range keeps you well out of potential jumping distance, and it's targeting the Tarrasque's nonexistent dex save). Just fly out of reach and slowly plink it to death. Simple.

[Dalebert]

Level 1 Aarakocra cleric. Fly above it at the limit of the range and Sacred Flame it to death.

[EvilAnagram]

Are there any builds that aren't completely undone should the Tarrasque throw clods of earth at them?

[Dalebert]

Are there any builds that aren't completely undone should the Tarrasque throw clods of earth at them?

You're making up new attacks for it? I assumed we were going by the creature as written and not a homebrew version. If you get to add new abilities as needed then this is going to be a pointless exercise.

[Telesto]

Honestly my favorite way of dealing with a tarrasque is just to throw a shiny ball after using it to get the tarrasque's attention. It isn't that intelligent so pretty much treating it like a dog will work.

With equipment any magic ranged weapon can handle it.

[EvilAnagram]

You're making up new attacks for it? I assumed we were going by the creature as written and not a homebrew version. If you get to add new abilities as needed then this is going to be a pointless exercise.

Creatures are able to use actions not detailed in their stat blocks. A human knight, for example, is able to attempt a grapple despite the fact that it is not specified in its block. The Tarrasque should be able to lift objects commensurate with its strength and throw them, just as any other creature with a minimal intelligence would be able to.

If you're going to pretend that the game does not allow the Tarrasque to interact with its environment using standard actions available to all creatures, then this is a fairly pointless exercise to begin with.

[Giant2005]

A level 3 Aarakokra (Or Winged Tiefling) Sun Soul Monk could do the job easily without relying on having an additional unlimited ammo superpower.
Just fly above and blast it with Sun Soul powers for as long as you like. If it decides to make an improvised action to throw something at you, it will only inflict 1d4 damage, which Deflect Missiles will take care of.

[Shaofoo]

Creatures are able to use actions not detailed in their stat blocks. A human knight, for example, is able to attempt a grapple despite the fact that it is not specified in its block. The Tarrasque should be able to lift objects commensurate with its strength and throw them, just as any other creature with a minimal intelligence would be able to.

If you're going to pretend that the game does not allow the Tarrasque to interact with its environment using standard actions available to all creatures, then this is a fairly pointless exercise to begin with.

But wouldn't that be an improvised attack and deal d4 damage?

"You see a massive chunk of earth hurled at you at great speeds and strike you in the face... take 3 damage"

[Yuki Akuma]

You know, in 4e, the Tarrasque actually had an innate gravity magic ability specifically designed to stop the "Fly and plink with arrows until dead" trick that worked on it in all previous editions.

Why did they remove that??

[EvilAnagram]

But wouldn't that be an improvised attack and deal d4 damage?

"You see a massive chunk of earth hurled at you at great speeds and strike you in the face... take 3 damage"

Improvised attacks don't necessarily deal 1d4 damage. That is only mentioned in a feat, and elsewhere in the books it is specifically left at the DM's discretion how to treat improvised weapons, and in either case the Tarrasque would still add his strength modifier.

[JumboWheat01]

Are there any builds that aren't completely undone should the Tarrasque throw clods of earth at them?


You're making up new attacks for it? I assumed we were going by the creature as written and not a homebrew version. If you get to add new abilities as needed then this is going to be a pointless exercise.


Creatures are able to use actions not detailed in their stat blocks. A human knight, for example, is able to attempt a grapple despite the fact that it is not specified in its block. The Tarrasque should be able to lift objects commensurate with its strength and throw them, just as any other creature with a minimal intelligence would be able to.

If you're going to pretend that the game does not allow the Tarrasque to interact with its environment using standard actions available to all creatures, then this is a fairly pointless exercise to begin with.

Since our characters are not allowed UA, that implies that we are not allowed Homebrew, official or not, and have to play our character by the printed letter. If we have to play it that way, by fairness, Big T has to be played by the printed letter, or else we are at a game mechanics disadvantage before the fight even exists.

[EvilAnagram]

Since our characters are not allowed UA, that implies that we are not allowed Homebrew, official or not, and have to play our character by the printed letter. If we have to play it that way, by fairness, Big T has to be played by the printed letter, or else we are at a game mechanics disadvantage before the fight even exists.
I'm not talking about homebrew, and no one mentioned UA.

The printed letter includes actions available to all creatures in the game, such as the ability to interact with objects. By the logic that everything needs a specific stat block action, since characters do not have the specific action Eat Food, they should all be starting this fight with levels of exhaustion from hunger and starve to death a week later.

Intentionally ignoring the Tarrasque's ability to interact with its environment in ways available to all creatures in the game is homebrew.

[gfishfunk]

Level 0: I hang around a tavern and keep asking unlikely and diverse groups at the tavern to slay it for me until a group of appropriately leveled and geared PCs take the job.

[Dalebert]

Creatures are able to use actions not detailed in their stat blocks. A human knight, for example, is able to attempt a grapple despite the fact that it is not specified in its block.

Within reason, sure. Animals generally can't throw things. Apes would be an exception because they have the intelligence and physiology to grab and throw things. A tarrasque is a quadruped with animal intelligence. It strikes me as something between a rhino, a bear, and a lizard, but of colossal proportions and with some extra enhanced savagery and resistance thrown in. To suggest that it would have either the mental capacity or the physiology to throw things is absurd.

MAYBE I could see it smacking a boulder to go rolling in the direction of some enemies as almost just a random part of raging. In particular, I'm trying to picture a quadruped with clawed paws somehow scooping up a big dirt clod, then rolling over on it's back, and slinging it str8 up at a flying enemy. Picture a dog doing that. It's comically ridiculous.

[Shaofoo]

Improvised attacks don't necessarily deal 1d4 damage. That is only mentioned in a feat, and elsewhere in the books it is specifically left at the DM's discretion how to treat improvised weapons, and in either case the Tarrasque would still add his strength modifier.

But then this is a pointless exercise if we can't even assign a particular long range attack.

Heck DMs might give the Tarrasques nuclear breath weapons because supposedly the Tarrasque is supposed to be inspired by Godzilla so why not give him some atomic fire breath? Makes sense to me.

[EvilAnagram]

Within reason, sure. Animals generally can't throw things. Apes would be an exception because they have the intelligence and physiology to grab and throw things. A tarrasque is a quadruped with animal intelligence. It strikes me as something between a rhino, a bear, and a lizard, but of colossal proportions and with some extra enhanced savagery and resistance thrown in. To suggest that it would have either the mental capacity or the physiology to throw things is absurd.

MAYBE I could see it smacking a boulder to go rolling in the direction of some enemies as almost just a random part of raging. In particular, I'm trying to picture a quadruped with clawed paws somehow scooping up a big dirt clod, then rolling over on it's back, and slinging it str8 up at a flying enemy. Picture a dog doing that. It's comically ridiculous.

Anything that has the physiology to throw something will inevitably do so, even creatures less intelligent than apes, such as monkeys. Even kangaroos and rodents have been able to throw, and their shoulders are not built for it.

The Tarrasque has the intelligence of a dog, which means problem solving intelligence and the knowledge of how to manipulate objects. It also has forelimbs with grasping, handling claws more similar to a rat's or human's than a dogs. Look at the well-defined fingers and contrast them with a dog's pads. Those are limbs capable of grabbing things and throwing them.

In fact, looking at the picture it's completely obvious that it's capable of bipedal movement, which supports the assertion that it's capable of grasping and manipulating objects.


But then this is a pointless exercise if we can't even assign a particular long range attack.
You can assume the absolute minimum of 1+Str mod.


Heck DMs might give the Tarrasques nuclear breath weapons because supposedly the Tarrasque is supposed to be inspired by Godzilla so why not give him some atomic fire breath? Makes sense to me.
That is similar to the assertion that the Tarrasque is somehow incapable of interacting with its environment in that it is entirely a homebrew/house rule, and thus unwelcome in this discussion.

[R.Shackleford]

You know, in 4e, the Tarrasque actually had an innate gravity magic ability specifically designed to stop the "Fly and plink with arrows until dead" trick that worked on it in all previous editions.

Why did they remove that??

Mostly because 5e monster ideology for the Big T is that "bag of hp" = fun!

There are a lot of 4e monsters that outshine their 5e counterparts. Their fuff and mechanics blow 5e out of the water when it comes to the MM.

I don't even use the 5e MM anymore except for the art. I do a quick conversion of 4e monsters.

[Shaofoo]

That is similar to the assertion that the Tarrasque is somehow incapable of interacting with its environment in that it is entirely a homebrew/house rule, and thus unwelcome in this discussion.

So then the 1st level birdman with the magic bow is a go?

[Mellack]

Even if T can throw things, improvised weapons have a max range of 60'. It is not hard to stay out of that range. Flyer with a magic bow wins at any level.

[EvilAnagram]

Even if T can throw things, improvised weapons have a max range of 60'. It is not hard to stay out of that range. Flyer with a magic bow wins at any level.

What? Maybe I'm missing something, but when you think about the nature of the arena that just seems like a horrible, prolonged suicide.

Think about the world described in the OP: It's a flat, featureless plain. Well, being featureless means there is no water, which means no clouds. And being flat means that no matter how far away it is, the Tarrasque will always be able to see the point you occupy in space.

Keep in mind that the Tarrasque is not only as smart as a dog, but much, much faster than any flying speed in the game. We already see complex, clever hunting behaviors in canids, so when you have a creature that is that intelligent with the brute strength and speed of the Tarrasque, it's quite horrific.

Obviously, anyone who hangs around shooting arrows at it will eventually register as a threat, a threat and a source of food in a world with no other sources of food to placate the Tarrasque.

Like any animal that perceives a threat with which it is unsure, it will retreat. It will run very far, very quickly, and it will keep its eye on you. You might chase it, but it is perfectly capable of keeping outside of your firing range. Creating a stalemate.

Except... a stalemate means it wins. Because no matter how you're staying aloft, you can't keep it up forever. Your spells will run out, your wings will tire, exhaustion will overcome you. And while PCs need rest or face exhaustion and eventual death, the Tarrasque does not. It is implacable. It never tires until it has had its fill, and in this world you are it's only food source. No matter how long you can ladt, it can last longer. And when you descend, he will rush forward and habe his meal.

You might feint a few times, maybe even hit him once or twice in the process, but eventually that will just make him more cautious. So despite your intelligence, despite your plans, you're still just treading water. Eventually you will not reascend. Eventually, it will win. Because the Tarrasque is entropy, and entropy always wins.

[R.Shackleford]

Even if T can throw things, improvised weapons have a max range of 60'. It is not hard to stay out of that range. Flyer with a magic bow wins at any level.

You forget, the person controlling the Big T can fudge things in this example but the player can't.

The hunk of earth has a range of "material plane" and damage of "whatever I want it to be".

[TheTeaMustFlow]

What? Maybe I'm missing something, but when you think about the nature of the arena that just seems like a horrible, prolonged suicide.

Think about the world described in the OP: It's a flat, featureless plain. Well, being featureless means there is no water, which means no clouds. And being flat means that no matter how far away it is, the Tarrasque will always be able to see the point you occupy in space.

Keep in mind that the Tarrasque is not only as smart as a dog, but much, much faster than any flying speed in the game. We already see complex, clever hunting behaviors in canids, so when you have a creature that is that intelligent with the brute strength and speed of the Tarrasque, it's quite horrific.

Obviously, anyone who hangs around shooting arrows at it will eventually register as a threat, a threat and a source of food in a world with no other sources of food to placate the Tarrasque.

Like any animal that perceives a threat with which it is unsure, it will retreat. It will run very far, very quickly, and it will keep its eye on you. You might chase it, but it is perfectly capable of keeping outside of your firing range. Creating a stalemate.

Except... a stalemate means it wins. Because no matter how you're staying aloft, you can't keep it up forever. Your spells will run out, your wings will tire, exhaustion will overcome you. And while PCs need rest or face exhaustion and eventual death, the Tarrasque does not. It is implacable. It never tires until it has had its fill, and in this world you are it's only food source. No matter how long you can ladt, it can last longer. And when you descend, he will rush forward and habe his meal.

You might feint a few times, maybe even hit him once or twice in the process, but eventually that will just make him more cautious. So despite your intelligence, despite your plans, you're still just treading water. Eventually you will not reascend. Eventually, it will win. Because the Tarrasque is entropy, and entropy always wins.

...What? Are we reading different statblocks? Because the Tarrasque in the Monster Manual I'm looking at has a mighty speed of 40ft, outstripped by almost every flyer in the book. It does have three legendary actions that it can use to move at half it's speed... but it can only use one of them, because legendary actions get used one at a time at the end of another creature's turn, and there's only one other creature on the planet. Meaning the big T has a top speed of 100ft per round, which is coincidentally exactly the same as your bog-standard Aaracockra, who can thus keep up with it. Even if there were other creatures for it to trigger legendary actions off, that would be a top speed of 140ft per round, which can be outrun by a second level Aaracockra rogue. So no, the Tarrasque is not perfectly capable of keeping outside firing range.

Furthermore, even if the Tarrasque were capable of outrunning our hypothetical Aaracockra (which it isn't), there is absolutely nothing in it's Monster Manual entry to suggest that it doesn't need to eat and sleep, and quite a bit to suggest that it does, what with it spending all it's time either asleep or hungry. Neither is their anything to suggest it in older edition entries* - and indeed, 2e Spelljammer has the Tarrasque as a perfectly natural lithovore from a rather strange world that get driven insane by nitrogen-heavy atmospheres.

*Or at least, the 3rd and 2nd edition ones - I don't have 4th, and I don't even know if it was a thing before 2nd.


You forget, the person controlling the Big T can fudge things in this example but the player can't.

The hunk of earth has a range of "material plane" and damage of "whatever I want it to be".

Yes, and he can also let it cast Wish at will if he wants. Or he can say you just fall dead of a heart attack because reasons. The fact that our hypothetical DM is capable of rule-zeroing things is irrelevant.

[JumboWheat01]

You forget, the person controlling the Big T can fudge things in this example but the player can't.

The hunk of earth has a range of "material plane" and damage of "whatever I want it to be".

In that case, we're fighting an unfair DM, which is always a losing fight even if we were up against a single kobold. Might as well just throw in the dice and go out for a drink.

[Sniccups]

This Aarakocra becomes 14th level immediately after killing this Tarrasque at 1st level.

What will they do?

[Shaofoo]

This Aarakocra becomes 14th level immediately after killing this Tarrasque at 1st level.

What will they do?

They will disappear into the ether like all pointless what-if characters to be never called again because winning internet slapfights is their only reason of existence.

[EvilAnagram]

...What? Are we reading different statblocks? Because the Tarrasque in the Monster Manual I'm looking at has a mighty speed of 40ft, outstripped by almost every flyer in the book. It does have three legendary actions that it can use to move at half it's speed... but it can only use one of them, because legendary actions get used one at a time at the end of another creature's turn, and there's only one other creature on the planet. Meaning the big T has a top speed of 100ft per round, which is coincidentally exactly the same as your bog-standard Aaracockra, who can thus keep up with it.
I was absolutely wrong about the speed. I was going off of memory as I was AFB, so you're right on that front. And my assumption of the tirelessness of T was firmly based in an older description of how it rises from the earth to rampage, only sleeping once more when it has eaten it's fill. It's pretty lame that they left out the key lore of the creature in the mm.

But with his speed he is still capable of forcing the player to use up their actions to keep up with him, so low-level casters using Fly will eventually be out of luck. Likewise, T can run an Aarakocra to exhaustion unless it's going to consistently match his +10 Con save and Legendary saves. Meanwhile, T really just needs one good shot to take down any of the low level builds proposed, while they need dozens to take him out.

[DragonSorcererX]

Given that the Tarrasque doesn't have regeneration any more, a first level Aaracockra or Winged Tiefling could do it if they had a magic bow or a saving throw cantrip (Sacred Flame would likely be the best, since the sixty foot range keeps you well out of potential jumping distance, and it's targeting the Tarrasque's nonexistent dex save). Just fly out of reach and slowly plink it to death. Simple.

The Tarrasque is a gargantuan creature, has 40 ft speed and a +10 strenght modifier, how high can he jump?


But wouldn't that be an improvised attack and deal d4 damage?


"You see a massive chunk of earth hurled at you at great speeds and strike you in the face... take 3 damage"

The Tarrasque is a Gargantuan creature, so, he would deal 20 (4d4+10) bludgeoning damage with a Improvised Weapon proper to his size (DMG p. 277, "Base the Damage on the Weapon"), now, with some reverse engineering of the giants rock attack: The rock attack seems to be an Improvised Weapon attack (The giant may have Tavern Brawler as a Feat so he is proficent with it, the Tarrasque isn't so he doesn't add his proficiency), the damage of the Rock is probably a Class Feature to the giants (so the Tarrasque stays with the d4's), now, the important part, the range of the rock attack is 60/240ft so we can assume that the range of rock thrown by a medium creature being 20/60ft (this means that the Rock thrown by a Huge creature has a normal range 3 times bigger than the rock thrown by a medium creature and the maximum range 4 times bigger), the Tarrasque is a Gargantuan creature, so, the range of the "ground piece he is throwing is 80/300ft, this gives us this:

Ranged Improvised Weapon (Gargantuan Weapon Size). Ranged Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, range 80/300 ft., one target. Hit: 20 (4d4+10) bludgeoning damage.

It's not much, but, it is something (This gave me the Idea of making a table with improvised weapons for creatures of different sizes).

[Shaofoo]

I was absolutely wrong about the speed. I was going off of memory as I was AFB, so you're right on that front. And my assumption of the tirelessness of T was firmly based in an older description of how it rises from the earth to rampage, only sleeping once more when it has eaten it's fill. It's pretty lame that they left out the key lore of the creature in the mm.

But with his speed he is still capable of forcing the player to use up their actions to keep up with him, so low-level casters using Fly will eventually be out of luck. Likewise, T can run an Aarakocra to exhaustion unless it's going to consistently match his +10 Con save and Legendary saves. Meanwhile, T really just needs one good shot to take down any of the low level builds proposed, while they need dozens to take him out.

So when does flying on top of the Tarrasque shooting straight down come into the equation. Because I thought the point of flying was to be able to keep out of range of his attacks, who cares if he can go supersonic if he can't reach the player. Unless you mean the Tarrasque is running away while the bird person is flying and shooting arrows and the point is less a fair fight and more that T is now the fox in this merry fox hunt.

And there is no exhaustion for constantly flying and fighting all day. By the rules T's only hope is that the bird person starts dying of thirst after days of constant plinking.

[Giant2005]

Technically the Tarrasque doesn't have an upper limit to its physical size - it could be so large as to make flying above it impossible (unless the character has the ability to survive a lack of atmosphere).

[Shaofoo]

The Tarrasque is a gargantuan creature, has 40 ft speed and a +10 strenght modifier, how high can he jump?

13 feet high.




The Tarrasque is a Gargantuan creature, so, he would deal 20 (4d4+10) bludgeoning damage with a Improvised Weapon proper to his size (DMG p. 277, "Base the Damage on the Weapon"), now, with some reverse engineering of the giants rock attack: The rock attack seems to be an Improvised Weapon attack (The giant may have Tavern Brawler as a Feat so he is proficent with it, the Tarrasque isn't so he doesn't add his proficiency), the damage of the Rock is probably a Class Feature to the giants (so the Tarrasque stays with the d4's), now, the important part, the range of the rock attack is 60/240ft so we can assume that the range of rock thrown by a medium creature being 20/60ft (this means that the Rock thrown by a Huge creature has a normal range 3 times bigger than the rock thrown by a medium creature and the maximum range 4 times bigger), the Tarrasque is a Gargantuan creature, so, the range of the "ground piece he is throwing is 80/300ft, this gives us this:

Ranged Improvised Weapon (Gargantuan Wepon Size). Ranged Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, range 80/300 ft., one target. Hit: 20 (4d4+10) bludgeoning damage.

It's not much, but, it is something (This gave me the Idea of making a table with improvised weapons for creatures of different sizes).

You are taking this from the "Make a creature" part of the DMG which isn't part of the core rules (I don't consider the DMG itself to be part of the core rules but this is especially true in the homebrew section of the DMG). Feel free to add it to your games but having him throw rocks is about as RAW as having him breath atomic fire, both require just as much DM fiat to make it happen.

[DragonSorcererX]

Technically the Tarrasque doesn't have an upper limit to its physical size - it could be so large as to make flying above it impossible (unless the character has the ability to survive a lack of atmosphere).

Sure, a monster that lives inside the core of the planet would totally die by going too high... (Before you come with any bullsh*t, he is immune to fire, poison and non-magical physical damage, there is notting natural inside the planet that would kill him)

[EvilAnagram]

You are taking this from the "Make a creature" part of the DMG which isn't part of the core rules (I don't consider the DMG itself to be part of the core rules but this is especially true in the homebrew section of the DMG). Feel free to add it to your games but having him throw rocks is about as RAW as having him breath atomic fire, both require just as much DM fiat to make it happen.
If a creature making a basic interaction with its environment is DM fiat, any action is DM fiat. You may as well claim that having the Tarrasque attempt a Perception check is DM fiat.

[DragonSorcererX]

If a creature making a basic interaction with its environment is DM fiat, any action is DM fiat. You may as well claim that having the Tarrasque attempt a Perception check is DM fiat.

Yes, and the thing that differs the RPG from video-games is the limit of what can happen, in a video-game, if you want to jump to some weird place you probably can't, on D&D you can try an Acrobatics check (you will probably kill yourself though).

[Dalebert]

I just looked at the pic in the MM. It doesn't have thumbs. It can't throw things. The fact it has a beast's int of 3 means it likely wouldn't even occur to it to attack in any other way than it's instinctive bestial attacks. Any notion of improvised attacks is a stretch even if it did have thumbs.

Call it a serious design flaw, but it has no ranged attacks.

[Yuki Akuma]

Rules for thrown attacks really only work if you assume everything has the exact same arm architecture as humans do. Even other primates can't propel anything nearly as fast as a human child, let alone the adult adventurers the rules are designed for.

The Tarrasque certainly doesn't have human arms. He doesn't even have thumbs.

[Shaofoo]

If a creature making a basic interaction with its environment is DM fiat, any action is DM fiat. You may as well claim that having the Tarrasque attempt a Perception check is DM fiat.

Do you have a point or are you being snarky?

The Tarrasque has a stat block, those are the rules that the makers of the game put it in there and that isn't DM fiat, if you are saying that using the monsters as written is DM fiat and if playing the game itself as it is written is DM fiat then I don't think you know what DM fiat even means.

Perception checks are governed by general rules, of course if you are saying that all actions is DM fiat then even moving the Tarrasque is DM fiat.

Even the environment itself is DM fiat, it can't interact with something that does not exist. Unless there is some RAW dungeon that I am not aware of.

-

The problem is that people tend to think in whiteroom analysis which is the exact opposite of playing the game.

You'll never find the Tarrasque in a white room devoid of all features, seriously the Tarrasque is more suited as a "lackey" than the BBEG. The Tarrasque isn't meant for straight combat, he is made to wreck stuff up, he is supposed to be Godzilla: smashing Tokyo cities and metropolis to dust, who cares if Harvey Birdman could eventually plink Godzilla before he dies of thirst I am sure that whatever in a 20 mile radius is destroyed.

And since you expect the BBEG to want the Tarrasque to win then I am sure he is more than happy to send some other lackeys that do have ranged attacks to grant support.

Feel free to have your thought exercises on the Littlest birb that could killing Godzilla but it isn't a problem of the game that someone found a way to cheese one monster. It is just as asinine as the people who constantly was devising ways to kill Tiamat in the module and ignoring the fact that there are also other cultists and enemies that summoned her and would probably still be very hostile.

[smcmike]

I tend to agree that monsters should be able to do things not specifically mentioned in their stat block. On the other hand, I also agree that big T doesn't look like much of a thrower. Kiting from a tireless horse or from the air could beat him.

I don't see this as much of a problem, though. You don't meet the tarrasque on a featureless plain. You meet him as he is eating the city you were attempting to reside in.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Except for the purposes of this exercise, we do fight the Tarrasque on a featureless plain. Which also raises the question of whether there's anything suitable for it to throw, assuming its stubby claws can actually throw anything effectively, let alone do so at sufficient range.

[orange74]

I suppose the fact that Mr. T doesn't have a burrowing speed means that a creature with 30 strength and giant claws that lives underground wouldn't consider, you know, digging a hole?

If holes are out of the question, I propose a new challenge:

What is the lowest level character that could kill Demogorgon, assuming everything except his baboon butt is encased in indestructible unobtanium and the area is under the effect of an anti-magic field maintained by the entire good-aligned pantheon? Also, you have the Wand of Orcus, Excalibur, and a medium-sized hydrogen bomb. PHB only. Show your work.

[Yuki Akuma]

D&D doesn't have rules for the damage caused by hydrogen bombs, so how can we show our work? :smalltongue:

Edit: Excalibur also doesn't have 5e stats but I'm sure we could port it. It probably showed up in 2e somewhere.

[Shaofoo]

Except for the purposes of this exercise, we do fight the Tarrasque on a featureless plain. Which also raises the question of whether there's anything suitable for it to throw, assuming its stubby claws can actually throw anything effectively, let alone do so at sufficient range.

And this is all that it is, an exercise. It isn't supposed to be a representation of any actual gameplay besides one iteration of combat.

And if it is a featureless plain then it shouldn't have anything to throw because that would invalidate the featureless part of the featureless terrain.

Basically putting huge rocks for Godtilla to throw is about as DM fiat as giving it fire breath, you are changing the stats around and invalidates the entire exercise. You might as well put a magic bow for the PCs that instahits and instakills Big T, it affects the exercise the exact same way in that it invalidates it.

[Foxhound438]

You're making up new attacks for it? I assumed we were going by the creature as written and not a homebrew version. If you get to add new abilities as needed then this is going to be a pointless exercise.

improvised weapon attack

[TheTeaMustFlow]

improvised weapon attack

1. As has been mentioned, it's highly debatable whether the Tarrasque possesses either the physical or mental capabilities to do so, and whether the scenario provides anything to use as a weapon.
2. Even if it does, then it can use an improvised weapon attack that deals 1d4+str damage with 20/60 range. There is some basis for increasing the damage as per DMG p.277, but none for increasing the range, which is the important bit, as it allows the Aaracockra to easily remain outside the big T's range (even if it is using Sacred Flame or Frostbite*, both of which have a 60ft range, it can easily fly into range, cast, then fly back out again.

*focusing on these two because they are by my reckoning the only way to deal consistent magical damage to the Tarrasque at first level without entering reach.

[Ghost Nappa]

I don't see how there needs to be any discussion involved here at all. Why can't we just teleport to the Tarrasque to the lowest plane and kill it there? Seems rather simple.

DM Fiat cannot be used as support for or against a theorycrafting thought experiment because it can make the task outright impossible (if the DM is an evil genius) or too hilariously easy (if the DM will let you get away with anything :elan: ). It is impossible to predict where any given DM is going to be on this scale, how "reasonably" they interpret the rules, and what environment they will give the players to engage Big T in.

However, I myself can beat the Tarrasque 100% of the time at Level 0 by ripping its page out of the monster manual and burning it with a lighter. This has the consequence of earning me 156,300 XP because I must also necessarily kill off Succubi and Thri-Keens in order to do.

[orange74]

DM Fiat cannot be used
Well no kidding, how the heck is the tarrasque going to fit into a Fiat?

[Sigreid]

1st level wizard with access to a sphere of annihilation. Who wants a treat? That's a good Tarrasque!

[R.Shackleford]

I suppose the fact that Mr. T doesn't have a burrowing speed means that a creature with 30 strength and giant claws that lives underground wouldn't consider, you know, digging a hole?

If holes are out of the question, I propose a new challenge.

If Big The runs away, or hides in a hole, the PCs won as you effectively turned Big T into the same thing as a 0 HP Big T.

[orange74]

If Big The runs away, or hides in a hole, the PCs won as you effectively turned Big T into the same thing as a 0 HP Big T.
Birdman has to rest sometime on this endless featureless plain and he can't do that while flying. At that point, a live tarrasque in a hole and a dead tarrasque are decidedly not the same thing. And if the objective is to kill it...

[R.Shackleford]

Birdman has to rest sometime on this endless featureless plain and he can't do that while flying. At that point, a live tarrasque in a hole and a dead tarrasque are decidedly not the same thing. And if the objective is to kill it...

And bird man can fly away in a random direction in which case the Big T would need to find birdman.

Hope Big T's stat block gives him the ability to see at an infinite range or Survival (to track) as a skill. Go the wrong way and Big T will never find birdman.

Edit

The choice to not play is on the DM/Big T, if big T doesn't want to play and runs away first then the PC wins.

Just like if the player can't harm big t and has to run away then Big T wins.

[Shaofoo]

Birdman has to rest sometime on this endless featureless plain and he can't do that while flying. At that point, a live tarrasque in a hole and a dead tarrasque are decidedly not the same thing. And if the objective is to kill it...

By rules Birdman can fly and fight indefinitely. There is nothing stopping anyone from fighting all day and night, you are never forced to take any kind of rest, you only rest to regain stuff not prevent stuff. The only thing is that eventually he will get thirsty and start taking exhaustion from it so it isn't like anyone can fight forever but it isn't because tiredness is part of the rules.

[Dalebert]

Aarokocra get a wisdom bonus, so assuming point buy it's DC can be 13 for Sacred Flame.

The tarrasque has magic resistance but no dex bonus so it needs to roll 12 or less on both dice to fail the save. That's a 60% chance of failing without resistance so .6 x .6 = .36 or 36% chance of failure due to magic resistance.

Sacred Flame does an average of 4.5 radiant with each success so average dmg per round would be 4.5 x .36 = 1.62 hp or 16.2 hp per minute.

Tarrasque has 676 hp so it would take 676 / 16.2 = 41.7 minutes to die, i.e. less than an hour for a lvl 1 Aarokocra cleric to sniper it to death.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Aarokocra get a wisdom bonus, so assuming point buy it's DC can be 13 for Sacred Flame.

The tarrasque has magic resistance but no dex bonus so it needs to roll 12 or less on both dice to fail the save. That's a 60% chance of failing without resistance so .6 x .6 = .36 or 36% chance of failure due to magic resistance.

Sacred Flame does an average of 4.5 radiant with each success so average dmg per round would be 4.5 x .36 = 1.62 hp or 16.2 hp per minute.

Tarrasque has 676 hp so it would take 676 / 16.2 = 41.7 minutes to die, i.e. less than an hour for a lvl 1 Aarokocra cleric to sniper it to death.

Now hang on, you've forgotten about legendary resistance - that might add a whole minute or so to the Tarrasque's lifespan!

[Beleriphon]

Within reason, sure. Animals generally can't throw things. Apes would be an exception because they have the intelligence and physiology to grab and throw things. A tarrasque is a quadruped with animal intelligence. It strikes me as something between a rhino, a bear, and a lizard, but of colossal proportions and with some extra enhanced savagery and resistance thrown in. To suggest that it would have either the mental capacity or the physiology to throw things is absurd.

MAYBE I could see it smacking a boulder to go rolling in the direction of some enemies as almost just a random part of raging. In particular, I'm trying to picture a quadruped with clawed paws somehow scooping up a big dirt clod, then rolling over on it's back, and slinging it str8 up at a flying enemy. Picture a dog doing that. It's comically ridiculous.

Meh, the tarrasque is pretty clearly a Godzilla expy, and the Godzilla certainly can throw things and use its arms to knock stuff over. I think its fair to suggest that the tarrasque can throw environmental features at the DMs pleasure even if it the stat block doesn't include a rock throw ability like a giant. It just means that the tarrasque's CR doesn't take into account a specific ranged attack, not that it can't do something like that.

As for improvised weapons remember the rules say treat an improvised weapon as the actual weapon if its "close enough". so a broken pool cue is a club or a spear, a frying pan is most like a club, etc. A large enough earth clod could be a cannon ball which does more than 1d4 damage for sure. Mind you the character/creature must be proficient in the weapon to treat as the same as the "real" one.

[Shaofoo]

Meh, the tarrasque is pretty clearly a Godzilla expy, and the Godzilla certainly can throw things and use its arms to knock stuff over. I think its fair to suggest that the tarrasque can throw environmental features at the DMs pleasure even if it the stat block doesn't include a rock throw ability like a giant. It just means that the tarrasque's CR doesn't take into account a specific ranged attack, not that it can't do something like that.


Everything you have said is basically "Use DM fiat to deal with this problem" which in this discussion is useless because there can never be any sort of consensus as to how to make it work. Every single creature in the MM can have attacks and abilities that are not in the stat block, the game expects that much and even encourages it. Black dragon with fire breath, go for it. Orc with psychic powers, why not.

Sure let T throw environmental features but we are in a featureless terrain, what would he actually throw? The ground beneath him? Is he so heavy that he creates rubble that can be used to throw?

Like I said, fire breath is much more simple and elegant and has the same amount of DM fiat to make it happen and Godzilla is much more known for his fire breath than for his throwing things. Seriously, why is fire breath being ignored?


As for improvised weapons remember the rules say treat an improvised weapon as the actual weapon if its "close enough". so a broken pool cue is a club or a spear, a frying pan is most like a club, etc. A large enough earth clod could be a cannon ball which does more than 1d4 damage for sure. Mind you the character/creature must be proficient in the weapon to treat as the same as the "real" one.

Unless Cannonballs are a weapon in the weapon table then they deal 1d4 damage like every single other non weapon. Feel free to raise the damage but then we go into DM fiat territory and as to how much damage to assign to the supposed rock throwing.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Actually, it would be nice if someone were to make a homebrew Tarrasque with some of it's old abilities back - regeneration, the 4th ed no fly zone thing, and indeed, proper giant-style rock throwing (which is actually from Pathfinder but oh well).

[Dalebert]

Tarrasque based on Godzilla, therefore...

Oh, good grief. Weak! So start a thread on fighting Godzilla if you want. This thread is about the Tarrasque from the MM, the one with an animal intelligence and no thumbs, neither of which is true about the ACTUAL Godzilla character which is not a tarrasque.

Folks need to simply come to terms that some monsters don't have ranged attacks, period. Such creatures are easier to kite. That said, they can still be quite a threat for various reasons. Maybe they ambush and grapple. Maybe the encounter takes place in a small cave where flying isn't much help. You can't just arbitrarily say that any creature regardless of intelligence or anatomy can make improvised ranged attacks. It make no centz.