Stat prereqs for feats

[RedMage125]

So...I should know this, but one of my players whose knowledge of the system rivals my own (MAYBE exceeds it) questioned my stance on this.

Since I run with very few houserules (all of which my players are aware of, and approve of), I try to keep things RAW, so that my players can access the same resources from which I am when making my rulings. That has resulted in me changing a few things, usually when this knowledgeable player points something out that I missed (for example, mithril armor only counts as one step lighter for movement restriction, not for proficiency. To which I made the point that since Arcane Spell Failure is based off movement restriction, a bard proficient in medium armor could cast in mithril medium armor without penalty).

ANYWAYS...

My question is about feats that have a Stat prerequisite, like CON 19 or something like that.

If a Barbarian has a natural CON of 17, but is wearing a Vest of Health +2 or something, could he, in theory, qualify for the feat?

My instinct is to say "no", and that the feat requirement must be met by the character's natural (unmodified) Con score.

He says that as long as the character has worn the item for 24 consecutive hours, it becomes considered a permanent bonus, which I think was a change they made in Pathfinder. We are playing 3.5e.

Anyone got the RAW answer to this?

I know that even if he's is permitted to take the feat, he'd lose the benefits if his CON dropped below 19, due to ability damage or whatever. I just don't know if he can even take it in the first place.

[Big Fau]

In 3.5, yes. In PF, I dunno because Paizo is crazy.

[RedMage125]

In 3.5, yes. In PF, I dunno because Paizo is crazy.

Yes he can take the feat?

[Malimar]

Yes he can take the feat?

Yes. D&D doesn't care about where your stats come from, only that you have them at the time you need them.

[Big Fau]

Yes. D&D doesn't care about where your stats come from, only that you have them at the time you need them.

To clarify, the buff to a stat has to have no listed duration for it to work for prerequisites. If you could someone get the duration of Bull's Strength to 24 hours or longer it still wouldn't let you qualify as it has a listed duration, but the Belt of Giant's Strength does because it lasts indefinitely.

[ryu]

Yes he can take the feat?

And further even if the item is removed he still HAS the feat. It just doesn't do anything until he regains his prereqs.

[FearlessGnome]

To clarify, the buff to a stat has to have no listed duration for it to work for prerequisites. If you could someone get the duration of Bull's Strength to 24 hours or longer it still wouldn't let you qualify as it has a listed duration, but the Belt of Giant's Strength does because it lasts indefinitely.

Is this really true? Obviously when you don't qualify for the feat anymore you lose the benefit of it, but is there anything in the rules that says you can't qualify by means of temporary boosts? Can you point me to where it says this?

[Hiro Quester]

We have played it this way, that you can't by using a spell or ability with limited duration.

For instance my DM denied my Druid taking the multitrack feat, in my default form I didn't always have the prerequisite 3 or more natural attacks.

AFAIK, there isn't a RAW on this. I couldn't find one when I was researching this for my Druid.

I think this is pretty much the DM's call. And my DMs reason for using this to deny taking multiattack was mostly about party balance.

I can see the argument for allowing this, since you lose the feat whenever you no longer satisfy the prerequisites.

A compromise might be to require the player to meet the prerequisite for the whole of the 24 hour period before taking the feat. They lose use of the feat whenever they don't meet the prerequisite.

[Big Fau]

Is this really true? Obviously when you don't qualify for the feat anymore you lose the benefit of it, but is there anything in the rules that says you can't qualify by means of temporary boosts? Can you point me to where it says this?

Not an official rule, but a ruling from the Sage and RPGA back in the day.

[Ashtagon]

Theres no RAW afaik, but I normally lay that you must be able to maintain the required ability score for at least 24 hours to qualify to take the feat.

RAW, to qualify to use (not take) the feat, you must have the required ability score at the time you want to use it.

[TheFurith]

RAW it's possible that he could use that to qualify for the feat. Which is silly and I'd never personally allow it, but it's your game so regardless of anything it's your call to make.

On another note. What happens if you use an item to qualify for a feat. Which you use to qualify for another feat. Which you use to qualify for a prestige class. Which has an ability which qualifies you for another prestige class. And then you take off the item? No. Just no.

[Ashtagon]

RAW it's possible that he could use that to qualify for the feat. Which is silly and I'd never personally allow it, but it's your game so regardless of anything it's your call to make.

On another note. What happens if you use an item to qualify for a feat. Which you use to qualify for another feat. Which you use to qualify for a prestige class. Which has an ability which qualifies you for another prestige class. And then you take off the item? No. Just no.

Oh, I play harsh on that scenario. If you lose your prerequisites, you lose use of the feat. Which can then go on to imply loss of a prestige class that relies on said feat. I make sure my players are very much aware of that weakness, and let them decide if they want to risk that happening and whether to actually go ahead with that prestie class.

[Troacctid]

Is this really true? Obviously when you don't qualify for the feat anymore you lose the benefit of it, but is there anything in the rules that says you can't qualify by means of temporary boosts? Can you point me to where it says this?
By default it is not true. You only need to meet the prerequisite at the time of your level-up, which happens instantaneously when you reach the XP threshold. However, I believe there are several variant rules that extend the level-up process over longer periods of time (e.g. requiring you to train for a week to level up), which would make temporary boosts not work.

[TheFurith]

Oh, I play harsh on that scenario. If you lose your prerequisites, you lose use of the feat. Which can then go on to imply loss of a prestige class that relies on said feat. I make sure my players are very much aware of that weakness, and let them decide if they want to risk that happening and whether to actually go ahead with that prestie class.

Well yeah. You have to make them lose it all, otherwise it would just be broken. But then it brings up ability drain and how that could disqualify a feat and absolutely cripple even characters that weren't trying to cheese the system. It's a cluster waiting to happen.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well yeah. You have to make them lose it all, otherwise it would just be broken. But then it brings up ability drain and how that could disqualify a feat and absolutely cripple even characters that weren't trying to cheese the system. It's a cluster waiting to happen.

Well yeah, that certainly is a thing that can happen. The Barbarian who's been Strength drained into single digits cannot make use of his Power Attack feat, either. Nor Cleave or anything else that has Power Attack as a prerequisite.

[Extra Anchovies]

Having less than 13 Strength means you can't select Power Attack as a new feat. But having 13 Strength, gaining Power Attack, and then losing a point of Strength doesn't force you to erase Power Attack from your character sheet - it just prevents you from using Power Attack until you're back to 13 Strength. The character still has Power Attack, which means they still have anything with Power Attack as a prerequisite, and they can use those things if they A) do not themselves require 13 Strength and B) do not require them to be using power attack. So they wouldn't be able to use Cleave or Improved Bull Rush, but they would be able to use class features from levels in Ravager (Complete Warrior), Knight Protector (Complete Warrior), or any other PrC which requires Power Attack but does not also require a Strength of at least 13.

[Andezzar]

For feats by RAW you need to fulfil all prerequisites to select and use them. It does not matter at all how you fulfil them So even temporary stat increases would allow you to select a feat, if they are active during the level up process. Remember as soon as you gain the necessary XP you have to level up - unless you immediately spend the XP on crafting (which can be quite difficult depending on where the characters are when the XP s are awarded). The DM however can remove such opportunities by giving out the XPs when buffs are down.

Also there is no rule (outside the two stupid books CW and CArc) removing anything from PrCs when you no longer fulfil their prerequisites. In fact the rules only ever tell us that "to qualify to become an [member of a PrC], a character must fulfill all the following criteria." Once you are a member (i.e. have at least one level in that class) there are no more checks.