ASI/Feat choice... Alert, MI or Cha +2

[Aaron Underhand]

I've been analyzing a ASI/feat choice for a character I'm playing, and wondered what the opinion here would be.

The character is vHuman Lore Bard3/Wiz1... I took the healer feat at first level - he is the party's support character, and only arcane caster. I'm planning all future levels will be Bard, and the feat comes in at next level

Stats are 8/14/12/14/10/16 at present.

Remainder of the party is:

Half Orc barbarian (S&B)
Wood Elf Ranger (Archer, Sharpshooter at 4th)
Wood Elf Druid3/Monk 1
Half Elf Rogue (mainly ranged, but can melee)
vHuman War cleric with Observant feat

For my 5th level choice I could just pump Cha, but since we get surprised in every other encounter I figured Alert would be good to keep me out of trouble and get control/buffs or early AoE down. Both MI (for Eldritch Blast and Hex), or Spell sniper (for Eldritch Blast) would marginally increase my DPR, but really I don't think that's an issue with the output from the Barbarian, Rogue and Ranger.

I would be interested in what you guys make of my options.

P.S should have noted - core books only for this build

[NecroDancer]

I'd increase your charisma

[Biggstick]

Before any of that, I think you should definitely think about picking up another level of Wizard. The Wizard Schools can provide massive combat or out of combat utility for the character. Divination and Conjuration immediately come to mind

If you're dead set on going Bard 4 next though, I'd definitely agree with NecroDancer and increase your Charisma. Your Bardic Inspirations + Cutting Words + all your spell DC's are tied to your Charisma modifier, so getting this high quickly should be your priority.

[JeffreyGator]

I'd also bump the cha. I understand not wanting to get hit by surprise but arguably that's not your character's job. The observant war cleric should have a passive perception of 20+ which should help a ton with not being surprised.

Or start looking for a weapon of warning if your DM allows such. (I allowed one for a session before determining that they don't exist.)

[Aaron Underhand]

Thanks all,

I guess I know this is optimal... was just hoping to do something more interesting/fun. May still do that an accept the consequences...

[beargryllz]

Alert is actually underwhelming and I found this out the hard way. I used to pick improved initiative on almost every character in 3.5e, but getting your primary attribute capped is far more important in 5e.

Very few feats are worth more than +2 to your primary attribute. Exceptions are feats with a +1 to your primary attribute if you previously had an odd-numbered raw ability score and feats that completely change the way your build works (polearm master, shield master, sentinel, etc.)

If you rolled stats, rolled a variant human, or used a special point buy, this isn't as obvious. For a standard point buy or elite array, you'll almost always want to race to 20 in your primary attribute first, then pick up a feat that complements your play style at a higher level.

[JellyPooga]

Very few feats are worth more than +2 to your primary attribute. Exceptions are feats with a +1 to your primary attribute if you previously had an odd-numbered raw ability score and feats that completely change the way your build works (polearm master, shield master, sentinel, etc.)

I kind of disagree on this particular point. Under most circumstances, I'd advocate a Feat over +2 [Stat], if only because a Feat is more interesting (as a rule) if not actually more powerful. In this particular case, however, Bards are so reliant on Charisma that +2 Cha is probably the best choice here.

I also agree with Biggstick that grabbing a 2nd level of Wizard for the School feature is a must; one level of Wizard gives you...well, almost nothing. Two levels will change the way your character functions by providing some excellent boons, whichever School you decide to go with.

[Aaron Underhand]

Hmmm,

Interesting to hear the votes for a second wizard level... it's something I'd thought of, but discounted. The one level gives me:


Three cantrips for improved at will damage (I took Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, and Acid splash )
A spellbook - potentially full of all the wizard first level spells for massive utility boost
Ritual casting of first level wizard spells
A familiar!
Ability to cast any wizard spell from a scroll, with fair probability if I can get some boost
One extra first level spell slot per day via arcane recovery
3 first level spells prepared - allowing me to focus my known spells at higher level Bard



This last is the real bonus for me... maximizing my selection of higher level spells. In particular each even level, when I get higher level spells, I find myself immediately with two spells at the top level. This means that I only feel delayed in spell progression half the time - every other level I find myself with full casting relative to a bard without the wizard level, who would probably need to limit known higher level spells.

The downside of a second level of wizard is that it would leave me two levels delayed in progression, and *always* with spells a level behind other full casters. In contrast to the massive pluses from one level of wizard, going to a second level only offers a school feature which initially is quite limited. Even Divination which might be the exception, offers only two rolls a day. This plus the requirement to select using the roll in advance makes it very restricted (though undoubtedly powerful when used). I cant see myself taking wizard again, except possibly Divination as a capstone at 20th.

I would be interested to hear why the second level is so highly regarded? Is there some pratical aspect in play that I'm missing....

[Biggstick]

You could always go Inspiring Leader if you're looking for something a bit more different.

[Biggstick]

The downside of a second level of wizard is that it would leave me two levels delayed in progression, and *always* with spells a level behind other full casters. In contrast to the massive pluses from one level of wizard, going to a second level only offers a school feature which initially is quite limited. Even Divination which might be the exception, offers only two rolls a day. This plus the requirement to select using the roll in advance makes it very restricted (though undoubtedly powerful when used). I cant see myself taking wizard again, except possibly Divination as a capstone at 20th.

I would be interested to hear why the second level is so highly regarded? Is there some pratical aspect in play that I'm missing....

Divination in particular is excellent in that it allows you to tell the DM what the roll was. On top of that, you will probably be able to Cutting Words that roll as well. You, by yourself, can have some NPC or BBEG roll absolutely terrible on two ability saves per day, and Cutting Words that roll as well! If you can't see the value in this, I'm really not sure how else to show you haha.

[JellyPooga]

Three cantrips for improved at will damage (I took Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, and Acid splash )
A spellbook - potentially full of all the wizard first level spells for massive utility boost
Ritual casting of first level wizard spells
A familiar!
Ability to cast any wizard spell from a scroll, with fair probability if I can get some boost
One extra first level spell slot per day via arcane recovery
3 first level spells prepared - allowing me to focus my known spells at higher level Bard


The problem with all of these boons is that none of them are particularly useful at higher levels (i.e. 8-10+). Portent, Sculpt Spells, Improved Minor Illusion, Grim Harvest and Minor Alchemy, depending on your focus, are all great to have, either in combat, as a utility or both; you might be delaying your access to higher level spells further, but Wiz 1 has already done the damage by delaying that progression in the first place, so a second level is a minor investment to get something worthwhile. Wizard levels are advancing your spell slots regardless, so you aren't losing that much and if you stick to a 2-level dip, you aren't losing two levels of spells known and as such are remaining vaguely competitive. The alternative would be to try and persuade your GM to retrain that Wizard level for Bard; perhaps something appropriate at levels 6 (if Lore Bard) or 10 when you'd normally pick up Magical Secrets.

[Aaron Underhand]

The problem with all of these boons is that none of them are particularly useful at higher levels (i.e. 8-10+).

Ah, now that's an interesting point. If their utility drops off that much I do have the option to pick up a second level of wizard, perhaps at 10th to make me Wiz2/Bard 8, or at 12th to go Wiz2/Bard 10.

I wouldn't ask to retrain - the wizard level was originally take for roleplaying reasons and is core to the character concept - I guess that makes it an optimization constraint...

I am filling the role of primary arcane caster/blaster, and Int based skill monkey, because of other party member choices.

I can see sculpt spell becoming very relevant for play in the 10-15 level range - is that other's experience

Oh, and to return to the original topic - that sort of implies maxing Cha with my first two ASIs...