Fixing awaken undead 3.5

[redking]

Awaken undead has a serious problem. The spell (spell compendium version is latest, and thus the canon version) explicitly allows the newly awakened undead feats and skills. Feats are not an issue, but skills are because the skeletons have no skills list! No class skills means that all class skills are cross class skills. Obviously this is an oversight.


This spell grants intelligence to mindless undead such as skeletons and zombies. Undead creatures with Intelligence scores are unaffected. A mindless undead gains an Intelligence score of 1d6+4, subject to the limitation that an undead cannot be more intelligent than is typical of a living creature of the same kind. A dog skeleton simply has Intelligence 2 (no roll needed), while an orc skeleton makes the die roll but can't have more than Intelligence 8. (See MM 290 for information on skills and feats the creature gains.)

Despite directing readers to MM 290, there is no guidance there for this problem. Therefore I suggest the following solution.

This spell grants intelligence to mindless undead such as skeletons and zombies. Undead creatures with Intelligence scores are unaffected. A mindless undead gains an Intelligence score of 1d6+4, subject to the limitation that an undead cannot be more intelligent than is typical of a living creature of the same kind. A dog skeleton simply has Intelligence 2 (no roll needed), while an orc skeleton makes the die roll but can't have more than Intelligence 8. At the time of casting the spellcaster decides whether the class skills of the awakened undead will be that of the commoner NPC class, or the warrior NPC class (only for purposes of skills. The awakened undead is not a commoner or warrior).

Problem solved.

[AnachroNinja]

My assumption and the way it's always been ran at tables I've played at has been that it has the same skill list as the creature it was created from, but that's just my table.

[Ruethgar]

It could be that it was intended. I mean they JUST gained sentience from being mindless, should they really have knowledge of how to use various skills? Also the 'can't have higher Int than average' seems a bit off to me, you are literally making a brain made of magic, why should it be constrained by its mortal limitations?

[redking]

My assumption and the way it's always been ran at tables I've played at has been that it has the same skill list as the creature it was created from, but that's just my table.

Take a human skeleton then. What are class skills for a human? There are none. It is class dependent. The spell compendium version does not speak of skills, but the Libre Mortis version specifically says that they don't get the skills that they had in life.


Undead do not regain any skills or feats they had in life

Which indicates that they are eligible for a new set of skills/feats. Anyway, its a mess that needed fixing.

[AnachroNinja]

It seems easier to just rule them as getting whatever their previous class (defaulting to warrior or commoner of the DM doesn't have anything specific) then to mess around with anything else, but there's other interpretations. I don't think there is a RAW answer so just figure out something reasonably consistent and roll with it.

[ShurikVch]

What are class skills for a human?You can't be "just a Human".
You are Human <insert class>.
Every class have list of class skills.

[Deophaun]

Awaken undead has a serious problem. The spell (spell compendium version is latest, and thus the canon version) explicitly allows the newly awakened undead feats and skills. Feats are not an issue, but skills are because the skeletons have no skills list! No class skills means that all class skills are cross class skills.[/I]
OK. They pay twice the number of points and can only have half as many ranks. Why is that a problem in need of fixing?

[mabriss lethe]

if it's a 1 HD creature (ie average human-ish skeleton) wouldn't it immediately trade in its RHD for a class level? That would solve it for the bottom rungs.

Higher HD undead:
The answer seems to be that without a skill list, all skills are cross class.

[ShurikVch]

Higher HD undead:
The answer seems to be that without a skill list, all skills are cross class.No, they still have skill list:
Firstly, there are various Monster Classes - all with their one lists
And secondly - even if creature in question don't have a Monster Classes
Skills
This line gives the creature’s skills, along with each skill’s modifier (including adjustments for ability scores, armor check penalties, and any bonuses from feats or racial traits). All listed skills are class skills, unless the creature has a character class (noted in the entry). A creature’s type and Intelligence score determine the number of skill points it has.

[redking]

No, they still have skill list:
Firstly, there are various Monster Classes - all with their one lists
And secondly - even if creature in question don't have a Monster Classes

Skeletons don't have any skills whatsoever.

[DrMotives]

I'm inclined to agree with many others here and say that skeleton, as a 'race', has a class list of no skills. But that isn't a huge deal, really. If we have two skeletons, Bob the human skeleton & Big Mike the ogre skeleton, and they are both Awakened with max possible intelligence rolls it should go like this.

Bob is a 1 HD undead human with 10 intelligence. He has 20 skill points (4 for undead RHD +1 human bonus, times 4 for 1st level) and every skill is cross class. This is almost the same as 10 skill points with every skill being in class. But, if he gets treated as anything other than cannon fodder or slave labor he's going to get a class with a skill list that replaces his single racial HD. Basically he'll retrain into a level 1 human with 10 int.

Big Mike is a 4 HD undead ogre with 6 intelligence. He has 14 skill points (4 undead per HD, -2 int penalty). Class skills for Big Mike are Climb, Listen, and Spot. After this, he can add class levels as normal, although with a 6 intelligence he has no hope of being an effective skillmonkey.

[ShurikVch]

Skeletons don't have any skills whatsoever.Skeletons don't have skill ranks, but still have class skills from their previous class

[Rijan_Sai]

No, they still have skill list:
Firstly, there are various Monster Classes - all with their one lists
And secondly - even if creature in question don't have a Monster Classes

*monster class skill stuff...

The problem with that is

Skills
A skeleton has no skills
A zombie has no skills

[ShurikVch]

The problem with that isYes.
So what?
It doesn't say "no class skills", just "no skills"

[redking]

Yes.
So what?
It doesn't say "no class skills", just "no skills"

The problem is that your quote proves the opposite of what you are saying. The monster entry for skeleton gives no skills, therefore they have no monster skills.

So there are only two options here. One, all skills are cross class skills. Or implement a fix in which skills are either warrior skills or commoner skills (as I suggested).

[ShurikVch]

The problem is that your quote proves the opposite of what you are saying.How?

The monster entry for skeleton gives no skills, therefore they have no monster skills."Skeleton" isn't a monster - it's a template, so any things which it doesn't changed directly, stay the same; there are very few templates which mess with class skill list, and they always say about it in very direct fashion: Lycanthrope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm), Entomanothrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a), Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) variants, Frenzy Dog (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20011025a)
I don't see words "class skills" in Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) template

Let's compare it to Effigy Creature template:
Skills and Feats: An effigy creature loses all skill points and all feats except for those feats that improve its attacks (such as Improved Natural Attack, Multiattack, Weapon Finesse, or Weapon Focus).Note: it's not a "re-made former creature", it's a crude imitation made of cogs and nuts, but it lose only "skill points", not a "skills" (and definitely not a "class skills").
Are you implying those mindless tin cans somehow better with skills than Undead?

Also, Skeletons and Zombies are not the only mindless undead:

Monster Manual III
Charnel hound
Plague spewer

Monster Manual IV
Bloodhulk
Web Mummy

Libris Mortis
Blood amniote
Bloodmote cloud
Bone rat swarm
Corpse rat swarm
Hulking corpse
Raiment
Revived fossil

Sandstorm
Ashen husk

And any other possible Undead who were mindless while alive

Note: most of those Undead aren't templates, thus during awakening they would get back all their former skills.
Which skills? Up to DM!

Problem exist only for Undead which source is too uncertain - such as Bloodmote cloud; but that would be, probably, the case when truly "all skills are cross-class skills"

[Zanos]

The houserule outlined in the OP is reasonable, but I don't think awakened zombies or skeletons being forced to have half-ranks in a skill is a major issue. Awaken Undead's primary purpose is to give undead minions a bit more umph. Having half ranks in balance, or spot, or listen, or disable device or whatever isn't a big deal for your squad of monsters. Undead tend to need a lot of HD to be effective anyway, and even without desecrate a caster can animate a creature with twice his own HD, so it would have normal skill ranks for a character of the casters level.

As an aside, I think i'm going to try to figure out if I can replace a trap monkey rogue with an awakened skeleton that just has a boatload of HD and uses all of his feats on trap stuff.

If you're trying to create a society of awakened undead with this spell, you might have an issue. But I'd also recommend you use the Necropolitian template from libris mortis instead.