Stop taking Spare the Dying cantrip

[Dalebert]

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/05/can-you-use-the-healers-kit-to-stabilize-a-pc-if-you-dont-have-the-medicine-skill-prof/

I've been saying this for a while. Unless it's a freebie for you, I find it hard to justify taking StD when healer's kits are so cheap and do the exact same thing and just as fast.

That said, I have heard one good argument for StD. You can do it with one hand so you don't have to drop your weapon(s) and/or shield. Still, it's so rare that I don't at least have and want to use a Healing Word when someone drops which is SO much better anyway. I just find that the cases for needing StD drop to being pretty rare.

Also, it's not like cleric cantrips are that great. Maybe you feel like the opportunity cost for taking it isn't that great anyway. You definitely want Guidance and Sacred Flame. No question. At the very least, you want Sacred Flame by 5th level when it starts doing 2d8. You can easily skip it and use a crossbow from 1 to 4. Still, it's crucial against some undead when you really need steady radiant damage, vampires but also nice against zombies. Resistance is arguably a lot more useful then StD also. You can cast it right before you go through a dungeon door, e.g. anytime an encounter is potentially imminent, and thus be prepared for being ambushed by a breath weapon or area spell.

StD isn't as completely useless as I once thought but it's approaching it. Oh, and druids FOR SURE should not take it. Their opportunity cost is much higher with better options for cantrips than clerics.

[odigity]

Every time I see someone with it, I want to shake them and scream "WHY!!??". I don't, because I don't want to be an *******, but inside my head, that's what's happening.

I realize not everyone understands or cares about optimization, and the flavor is fine, but mechanically... it's just so stupid.

I wish they'd errata to make it more useful (bonus action, range, multiple targets, 1 hp restored, *something*).

[Sir cryosin]

Ok I can see why ya'll don't like the spell but I seen it put to good use. So half the party wasn't at a game one night. The four of use where going through a temple and can to a room filled with gold and a door we walk in the founded out the door was locked befor I could try to unlock the door someone picked up some gold. Activating a stone golem we had it dropped two of use and stood in the middle of the room while the other two pcs are in a small crack in the wall we used to get in the golem can't get to use the only caster used her familiar to go over the the other downed pc still in the room. Not to make aNY more of a wall of text but the two pcs were 1 failed from dying.

[Toofey]

I wonder if it exists for people to take it using Magic Initiate, leaving them able to take bless for their 1st level spell slot?

[odigity]

Ok I can see why ya'll don't like the spell but I seen it put to good use. So half the party wasn't at a game one night. The four of use where going through a temple and can to a room filled with gold and a door we walk in the founded out the door was locked befor I could try to unlock the door someone picked up some gold. Activating a stone golem we had it dropped two of use and stood in the middle of the room while the other two pcs are in a small crack in the wall we used to get in the golem can't get to use the only caster used her familiar to go over the the other downed pc still in the room. Not to make aNY more of a wall of text but the two pcs were 1 failed from dying.

I can't imagine it's a common situation where...
1) a char has Spare the Dying (Cleric cantrip) *and* Find Familiar (Wizard, Warlock, Magic Initiate, Bard), but not Healing Word
2) another char is one save from full death, and char #1 can't get there in time except with their familiar

If you think it's worth a cantrip slot for the above scenario, then by all means. I'd literally take any other cantrip -- even Blade Ward, which theoretically could be useful when Quickened.

[Toadkiller]

Familiar - touch spell. My bat can deliver it without me having to get near the patient. Granted that's an edge case, and not optimized. But since I'm cleric 1/wizard X I have quite a few cantrips. Having one that's "just because" isn't a big deal. I still have two damage types, utility and special effects covered.

I think I have mostly used it to have the bat (or owl earlier) keep the last bad guy from dying. At our table "saved by magic" is a bit more convincing than I put a bandaid on it in those cases.

It's just a game.

[Belac93]

I enjoy it as my undying warlock (mainly because my group doesn't like healers). I usually take it as a cleric, because it is a single cantrip (I am usually a gish anyway), and sometimes a character is dying at the end of a fight and I don't have any spell slots left. I know I could use a healer's kit, but sometimes I don't have the option to buy one right from the beggining (like in a rage of demons game).

I agree that it is a subpar cantrip, but it isn't as useless as true strike, blade ward, or poison spray (although blade ward can be good on a sorcerer and a very tanky eldritch knight).

[cobaltstarfire]

Hmm.

I just read up on the healer's kit, and I didn't know that it had 10 uses in it. Which does make it slightly nicer (I was under the impression that it was single, or very few uses)

Though last time I played a cleric, the game was using variant encumbrance rules, I simply wouldn't have had the carry capacity to have a healers kit with me.

[MaxWilson]

I agree that it is a subpar cantrip, but it isn't as useless as true strike, blade ward, or poison spray (although blade ward can be good on a sorcerer and a very tanky eldritch knight).

Blade Ward is also pretty decent on anyone with Armor of Agathys up. Or if you are grappled, or blinded, so Dodge can't work.

It's niche but nice to have available.

[Tanarii]

Best used on the battlefield to save the lives of huge numbers of NPC soldiers. :smallwink:

[Fflewddur Fflam]

There's nothing wrong with Spare The Dying. A cleric starts with 3 cantrips, the only two essential cantrips are Sacred Flame and Guidance, everything else is just "whatever". You can certainly take Spare The Dying as your third cantrip.

I've got a Half-Elf Cleric who is from a Noble background. She's far too effete and cultured to run around with bloody and messy healing kits, dirtying her well-manicured hands. It's Spare The Dying for her every time.

[rudy]

I agree that in the core rules it's a terrible cantrip.

In my games, I made it so that using a healer's kit in combat provokes opportunity attacks if there is an enemy standing by the wounded person you are trying to rapidly bandage (often the same enemy which knocked them below 0), which makes the cantrip actually useful.

[Strill]

I let Spare the Dying restore 1 HP once per character per short rest.

[MasterMercury]

Don't you have to make some kind of roll while using a healing kit? Stabilizing a dying person isn't exactly an action so easy that there's no chance of failure. I've always thought that spare the dying was good because you can stabilize someone with no chance of failure

[Strill]

Nope. You only roll when you're not using a healer's kit. With the kit, you don't need to make a roll at all.

[rudy]

You only roll when you're not using a healer's kit. With the kit, you don't need to make a roll at all.

Yup! You can whip out a healer's kit with no training, and stabilize a fallen comrade in six seconds (or less, if you're also moving to them) even if completely surrounded by hostiles.

I literally can't imagine that happening quickly enough.

It's definitely in the category of things that you either make houserules for, or accept that it is a completely unrealistic abstraction changed for reasons of fun.

[comk59]

Huh, healing kits are kinda silly. I should've read that sooner.

In my campaigns I've ruled that cantrip scrolls can be used by anyone with an Int of 10 or higher, so I've had StD, Mending, and a few other utility scrolls be staples in adventuring shops.

[DracoKnight]

In my campaigns I've ruled that cantrip scrolls can be used by anyone with an Int of 10 or higher, so I've had StD, Mending, and a few other utility scrolls be staples in adventuring shops.

I've done this + having cantrip scrolls not automatically consumed. Every 5 uses the user rolls a d20, and on a 1, the scroll is consumed.

[odigity]

it isn't as useless as true strike

Funny timing - I used to think that, but today for the first time I reconsidered. I just built a Rogue (Swasbuckler) / Socerer (Draconic), and I might take True Strike as my fifth cantrip. I can cast it Quickened as bonus action if I really want to be sure my main attack lands, since my massive Sneak Attack and Booming Blade dmg all depends on making that one hit that I get each round.


I let Spare the Dying restore 1 HP once per character per short rest.

I don't DM, but if I did, I'd houserule it at least by either a bonus action, a ranged spell, or grant 1 HP, and possibly two out of the three. (Maybe even let the player choose which two attributes when selecting it.)

I'm not entirely sure which of those attributes are most balanced; it warrants more scrutiny. But certainly at least one of them is required to make the cantrip worth while.

[comk59]

I've done this + having cantrip scrolls not automatically consumed. Every 5 uses the user rolls a d20, and on a 1, the scroll is consumed.

Ooh! Probably gonna steal this, especially for my high magic campaigns.

[Pex]

Now I'll take it just to spite you.

Why pay for a healer's kit regardless of how cheap it is when you can do the same thing for free? It's still an action use, and I happen to think preventing a party member from needing to make death saving throws and possibly die to be an excellent use of one's action, but I guess that's just me thinking another player's character is worth saving. It would be nice to have used Healing Word or if must Cure Wounds to get the person conscious and do his own actions, but I find solace if it was my character in death's door that a party member cares enough about me to want to keep my character from dying. Go figure.

[Dalebert]

Why pay for a healer's kit regardless of how cheap it is when you can do the same thing for free?

Because it's not free. You're paying for it with a cantrip slot. Another way to think of it, you're paying the opportunity cost of a more useful cantrip.


I happen to think preventing a party member from needing to make death saving throws and possibly die to be an excellent use of one's action, but I guess that's just me thinking another player's character is worth saving.

What in heckfire are you talking about? We're both spending 1 action for a 100% success chance of stabilizing someone. How in the... what... how does this relate in any way to how much I care about preventing a PC's death?

It's because I do care that every single character I've ever made, who starts off with 10 or 15 gp, first and foremost spends 5gp on a healer's kit with 10 uses of auto-stabilize, half of my starting money if necessary because I consider this crucial equipment and because it's a relatively cheap cost for how helpful it is, whether I'm a cleric or druid or something else. The next thing I buy is a grappling hook. The next thing is some oil, in case I want to burn something. Then anything else feels like icing.

I have made at least a dozen characters and played them extensively and I have yet to run out of healer's kits. No character has ever used all 10. They're a last resort. Much preferred is to use magical healing and get them on their feet. I just want to have those kits to fall back on and keep someone alive if a Healing Word or potion isn't available. Trying to understand how you equate this to me not caring about keeping someone alive is making my head spin. Absolutely baffling.

[Tanarii]

Funny timing - I used to think that, but today for the first time I reconsidered. I just built a Rogue (Swasbuckler) / Socerer (Draconic), and I might take True Strike as my fifth cantrip. I can cast it Quickened as bonus action if I really want to be sure my main attack lands, since my massive Sneak Attack and Booming Blade dmg all depends on making that one hit that I get each round.
Even cast quickened as a bonus action, True Stike still doesn't go into affect until your first strike in the next round. And it eats uP your concentration until you use it. And it's still less DPR, but the exact same chance to land at least one strike, as casting a quickened Booming Blade.

So yeah, that use of True Strike is a complete waste of a cantrip slot, because it gains nothing and is actually worse than not using it. Spare the Dying at least saves you 5sp per use, and can be used if you lose your gear for some reason, so there is a technical benefit to having it.

[Zalabim]

Blade Ward is also pretty decent on anyone with Armor of Agathys up. Or if you are grappled, or blinded, so Dodge can't work.

It's niche but nice to have available.
Blade Ward is also worthwhile (compared to Dodge) if the enemy has a better than 50% chance to hit you before disadvantage, and you aren't making Dexterity saves and the enemy only does B,P, S typed damage.

Funny timing - I used to think that, but today for the first time I reconsidered. I just built a Rogue (Swasbuckler) / Socerer (Draconic), and I might take True Strike as my fifth cantrip. I can cast it Quickened as bonus action if I really want to be sure my main attack lands, since my massive Sneak Attack and Booming Blade dmg all depends on making that one hit that I get each round.
Unfortunately, True Strike is trying so hard to be useless that it doesn't even grant you advantage on your one attack until your next turn. So you'd have to wait a round to start getting advantage or somehow predict the future to have used it when you will need it.

And I've been ninjaed. I suppose I should have predicted that.

[Tanarii]

I'm fairly sure there are no viable True Strike builds that depend on melee or ranged physical attacks or casting cantrip. Because two attacks at the same value is always equal to one with advantage.

True Strike is for landing an attack-roll based level one plus spell that either:
Does more damage with advantage than said spell without advantage + an attack cantrip does.
Or
Has a special affect you really must land from your use of a single spell slot.

Problem is there are so few attack-roll based level one plus spells, it's almost never worth using a cantrip slot to select True Strike. If you're going to regularly upcast Chromatic Orb? (Can't use it with Vampiric Touch since that's concentration too.)

[Kryx]

The problem is with healer's kits, not spare the dying. I changed healer's kits to give advantage on a medicine check to stabilize. Still a high likelihood, but encourages the medicine skill and spare the dying to ensure.

[Giant2005]

You didn't need all of that explanation - I was willing to stop taking Spare the Dying the minute you called it STD.

[odigity]

Even cast quickened as a bonus action, True Stike still doesn't go into affect until your first strike in the next round.

Crap, you're right. That makes it even more useless than I thought.

And yet, still more useful than Spare the Dying. :)


You didn't need all of that explanation - I was willing to stop taking Spare the Dying the minute you called it STD.

Ha!

[D.U.P.A.]

Still, in low income or no market campaigns (I seem to be stuck into those) there is barely any chance to buy a healing cantrip. And medicine check is too risky in the middle of the fight, you fail it, you just wasted your turn.

[Asmotherion]

Now I'll take it just to spite you.

Why pay for a healer's kit regardless of how cheap it is when you can do the same thing for free? It's still an action use, and I happen to think preventing a party member from needing to make death saving throws and possibly die to be an excellent use of one's action, but I guess that's just me thinking another player's character is worth saving. It would be nice to have used Healing Word or if must Cure Wounds to get the person conscious and do his own actions, but I find solace if it was my character in death's door that a party member cares enough about me to want to keep my character from dying. Go figure.

Quite the emotional speach... however we're in 5e. Death is never the end except if the player and DM chooses so.

[Citan]

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/05/can-you-use-the-healers-kit-to-stabilize-a-pc-if-you-dont-have-the-medicine-skill-prof/

I've been saying this for a while. Unless it's a freebie for you, I find it hard to justify taking StD when healer's kits are so cheap and do the exact same thing and just as fast.

StD isn't as completely useless as I once thought but it's approaching it. Oh, and druids FOR SURE should not take it. Their opportunity cost is much higher with better options for cantrips than clerics.



I wish they'd errata to make it more useful (bonus action, range, multiple targets, 1 hp restored, *something*).
I agree that this is generally subpar, it would be much much better just by restoring 1 HP.

Even then, it can have its uses.
Sure, those who get this cantrip usually get also Healing Words or Cure Wounds. But it can so happen that you are out of slots, or that you know you can finish the fight without his help (so you don't want to spend a slot for Healing Words when in less than a minute later you will be able to cast a strong healing spell for the party... Or plenty of time to heal with other means).

Also, getting it with a familiar, as a Trickster Cleric or as a Sorcerer makes it a pretty decent cantrip actually.
For a pure Cleric of another domain, agreed, I'd prefer taking another cantrip and just keep one Healer's Kit for the worst case emergency though.

[Tanarii]

Crap, you're right. That makes it even more useless than I thought.

And yet, still more useful than Spare the Dying. :)


Interesting. I feel like it's the other way around.

True Strike is so often mistaken in how it really works that it's in effect, if not mechanically, a trap option. In other words, people often do the exact same thing you were thinking of doing, take it when it's mechanically worse to take.

Even if that's not the case, True Strike is incredibly niche. Where as Spare the Dying is almost always superior to a Healing Kit, because of action economy.

Spare the Dying allows a Cleric to stop the bleeding without spending an action putting her shield away. Also note that even without a shield on, using a Healing Kit usually takes 2 actions: one to pull it out and one to use it. Unless you want to drop whatever you've got in your hands at the time, you're using your free object interaction to put that away first, then an action to get out the Healer's Kit.

Edit: action economy is the same reason a character might choose to make a medicine check instead of using a Healers Kit.

[odigity]

Spare the Dying allows a Cleric to stop the bleeding without spending an action putting her shield away. Also note that even without a shield on, using a Healing Kit usually takes 2 actions: one to pull it out and one to use it. Unless you want to drop whatever you've got in your hands at the time, you're using your free object interaction to put that away first, then an action to get out the Healer's Kit.

Edit: action economy is the same reason a character might choose to make a medicine check instead of using a Healers Kit.

Fair point regarding action, though if you're really committed to efficient healing, you could strap the healing kit to a forearm to reduce it from two actions to one unless the DM's being unreasonable.

I still think it's so weak as to not be worth a cantrip slot.

Clerics start with 3 cantrips, and end with 5. (There are only 7 to choose from, which is super-lame and ought to be fixed in the next appropriate sourcebook.) If I had to rank my top 5 picks in no particular order:

* Guidance
* Light
* Mending
* Sacred Flame
* Thaumaturgy

Leaving Resistance and Spare the Dying on the cutting room floor.

I realize you don't want to make STD *too* good because you don't want to step on Healing Word. Granting 1 hp is actually the single most powerful feature you can add to it, which is why you probably shouldn't. (There's little difference between 1hp and whatever Healing Word grants you; in both cases you're up and can take actions, but will probably go back down with the next hit, so why waste a 1st lvl slot if STD gets the same job done.)

So I'd probably give it range and/or bonus action casting time. Then it'd be a strong pick.

[Zalabim]

I have to assume Healing Kits are like the X-com (classic) advanced medikits. They have stimulants, painkillers, and bandages (or maybe first aid spray) to wake up KO'd troops, restore morale to the wounded, and stop them from dying to bleeding wounds. And the Healer feat gives you license to use more than just the spray-on bandages. They can be used with one hand, fit on your belt, and don't spend many TUs. The medikit is truly a miracle of modern medicine. Now available, anachronistically, in your D&D game, right next to the laserguns and robots. No wait, it's next to the grappling hooks and flasks of oil. How odd, but useful.

Sorry. The thought had been rattling in my head all night.

[odigity]

Now available, anachronistically, in your D&D game, right next to the laserguns and robots. No wait, it's next to the grappling hooks and flasks of oil.

Just think of them as alchemical items, which is 5e-speak for magic so negligible it can't be detected or dispelled. You know, like Healing Potion.

[Tanarii]

Fair point regarding action, though if you're really committed to efficient healing, you could strap the healing kit to a forearm to reduce it from two actions to one unless the DM's being unreasonable.I don't think a DM requiring that to also take a free object interaction to use. Just as it takes one to draw something from a bandolier. A player trying to claim otherwise sounds sneakily like a player trying to game the system to me,


I still think it's so weak as to not be worth a cantrip slot.Oh, so do I. Generally speaking, I'd rather have Guidance first, and Sacred Flame (if Dex less than 14) or Resistance (Dex 14+), then Light (no darkvision) or Mending (darkvision), then Resistance/SF at 4th, then finally Mending (no darkvision) or Thaumaturgy (darkvision) at 10th.

I probably would take Spare the Dying if I was gonna make a Cleric that fought S&B and wasn't ever going to prepare a healing spell for some reason. (Like telling the party "hell no I'm not your heal-bot"? :smallbiggrin: ) Maybe even if the only healing spell prepared was Healing Word and I knew for a fact I'd almost always be using my spell slots for something else. Probably not though. 4 1st level pop-up heals a day can be plenty on a good day.

Meanwhile I can't think of a single time I'd take True Strike. That was really my overall point, the comparison between he two.

[Hrugner]

Still, in low income or no market campaigns (I seem to be stuck into those) there is barely any chance to buy a healing cantrip. And medicine check is too risky in the middle of the fight, you fail it, you just wasted your turn.

I'm in the same boat. There's no guarantee of your equipment sticking around, more equipment coming available, and relying on any sort of consumable leaves you stranded regularly. For awhile, even playing a wizard was hell due to the spell book.

But in these mythical games where resources are abundant, I can see spare the dying being pointless.

[Dalebert]

You're taking Light? Oh, geez. I need to make a new thread. You know you can cast Continual Flame at 3rd, right? I'm honestly and sincerely baffled that you would put Mending and Light above the one and only attack cantrip that cleric's get and the only cantrip that deals radiant damage. That should be at the absolute top of the list. Maybe you always play melee-oriented clerics, but still--zombies, vampires. Have radiant damage always.

I'm kidding. Kinda. I could see some convenience in casting light on something disposable and dropping it down a hole or shooting a lighted arrow at the enemy to light them up. I wouldn't want to blow 50gp on an arrow that later breaks.

I admitted early on that StD only takes one hand which is nice if you normally carry a shield. It's still such a rare need for me, particularly when I'm playing a cleric, that I'd rather just carry healer's kits for those rare cases when I can't afford the slot to Healing Word someone.

[Tanarii]

You're taking Light? Oh, geez. I need to make a new thread. You know you can cast Continual Flame at 3rd, right?

I'm kidding. Kinda. I could see some convenience in casting light on something disposable and dropping it down a hole or shooting a lighted arrow at the enemy to light them up. I wouldn't want to blow 50gp on an arrow that later breaks.The problem with continual flame is its continual. And as you say, it costs money. Quite a lot for something you'll potentially be using several times a day. But most importantly it burns a level 2 slot.

I more often hear players frame this comparison as: You're taking continual flame? Oh, jeez. You know Light is a cantrip, right?


I admitted early on that StD only takes one hand which is nice if you normally carry a shield. It's still such a rare need for me, particularly when I'm playing a cleric, that I'd rather just carry healer's kits for those rare cases when I can't afford the slot to Healing Word someone.How do you deal with the loss of action economy? Do you just drop you weapon? Do you not normally play clerics who wear shield?

Edit: or more realistically, do you just count on not really being in that situation of needing to use the Healing Kit anyway? Because that's what it really sounds like.

[Dalebert]

The problem with continual flame is its continual. And as you say, it costs money. Quite a lot for something you'll potentially be using several times a day. But most importantly it burns a level 2 slot.

You cast it on something in off-time and now you have a permanent light source. You can just cover it up when you don't want light.


How do you deal with the loss of action economy? Do you just drop you weapon? Do you not normally play clerics who wear shield?

Edit: or more realistically, do you just count on not really being in that situation of needing to use the Healing Kit anyway? Because that's what it really sounds like.

It's an extremely rare scenario. I've seen people say that it's not rare for them and all I can think is it's amazing they're not constantly wiping. People occasionally drop to 0, sure, and usually you cast CW or HW and get them back into the fight. If so many are dropping to 0 so often that you can't afford slots to get them back up and into the fight, then there are problems somewhere else in your tactics, but more importantly, how are you not TPKing? It's not a sustainable tactic, frequently blowing your action just to keep someone from dying. It should be a rare thing that you need a healing kit or StD. And if someone says "Oh really? My DM is much harsher than yours then!" Well, like I said. You should be TPKing constantly then because if you're in a situation where people are dropping to 0 and you aren't getting them back into the fight, that's a domino effect. You went from the frying pan into the fire. You were already out of your league when you had a full party on their feet and now your numbers are dwindling against this force.

I honestly don't think I've ever had a cleric actually use a healing kit. I've used them with characters who aren't clerics and none of them wore a shield. As I said earlier, I've never gone through all 10 uses of the kit I bought when my character was new. So it's already such a rare case that it seems quite silly to blow a permanent cantrip slot for it. I have a lvl 14 monk who finally sold what he had left from when he first started because he dipped undying warlock and got StD for free. *shrug* As a cleric I buy it as a last resort, but it seems even more unheard of for me to use it because Healing Word--bonus action and actually gets someone back into the fight.

[Pex]

Spare The Dying is worth the slot.

Clerics start with three. Spare The Dying, Sacred Flame, Guidance. That's good to go for your first three levels - save a life, attack, buff. At fourth level choose what game play directs. Because of Bless Resistance is probably not needed so much. Take Light if lighting a torch has become so much a bother or Thaumaturgy for the roleplaying fun. By the time 10th level comes around your next Cantrip is practically meaningless. I'd be seriously shocked if you absolutely needed Mending aside from pure roleplaying reasons more than once in three campaigns worth of playing.

Spare The Dying is only a Cleric cantrip, so Druids don't have the option in the first place.

It's not a must take Cantrip for Magic Initiate - Cleric. Sacred Flame and Guidance would be the goto ones.

[odigity]

I'd be seriously shocked if you absolutely needed Mending aside from pure roleplaying reasons more than once in three campaigns worth of playing.

I like Mending. It's the only way I know of to immediately repair a mundane item with no crafting skill, cost, or materials.

I built a Wizard last week with background Sage - Librarian (he was doing post-graduate work at an Academy for Arcane Library Science when the building was squashed by a drunk stone giant -- flavored to fit into a post-Storm King's Thunder world).

I figure he's probably as OCD about organization as I am, so when his first spellbook gets full and he needs to start a second one, he'd want to reorder the spells alphabetically into two new half-filled books. I was thinking I could rip out the pages and then use Mending to rebind them in the right order.

[Daishain]

Uh, no.

Sure, it could be better, but it is extremely thematic, and quite useful in its own right. My last cleric saved hundreds of lives walking battlefields that would have eaten up every last spell and a dozen healer's kits besides.

I'm actually of the opinion that STD is fine where it stands, and it is the kits that need shifting to a different role. In my games, the kits cost ten times as much, and take a full minute to use. However, the user can make a medicine check to duplicate the effects of the Healer feat (said feat just no longer exists). Botch the check and waste the charge, but at minimum, the patient won't bleed out while you're trying.

[Pex]

Uh, no.

Sure, it could be better, but it is extremely thematic, and quite useful in its own right. My last cleric saved hundreds of lives walking battlefields that would have eaten up every last spell and a dozen healer's kits besides.

I'm actually of the opinion that STD is fine where it stands, and it is the kits that need shifting to a different role. In my games, the kits cost ten times as much, and take a full minute to use. However, the user can make a medicine check to duplicate the effects of the Healer feat (said feat just no longer exists). Botch the check and waste the charge, but at minimum, the patient won't bleed out while you're trying.

If you make the kits inefficient to useless then of course Spare The Dying would look more attractive. With Healer feat gone magic is trumping mundane once again. Still, good point on usefulness of the spell for battlefield play. Keeps multitude of NPCs alive until more proper care can be given as campaign flavor text.

There's no problem with medicine kits, Healer feat, and Spare The Dying all existing together. They each provide their own means to save the the dying with the first two having the added benefit that it doesn't have to be the Cleric doing all the healing let alone needing anyone to cast healing spells all the time.

[MaxWilson]

Sure, it could be better, but it is extremely thematic, and quite useful in its own right. My last cleric saved hundreds of lives walking battlefields that would have eaten up every last spell and a dozen healer's kits besides.

Since you only have thirty seconds to reach each casualty before the death check is moot (one way or the other), it's really quite difficult to save lives on the battlefield unless they are dying in a steady but extremely slow trickle. Was it a siege situation where one guy is going down every few minutes and you have plenty of time to Dash over?

[odigity]

I doubt anyone cares, but I've come to a decision. Adding range or HP probably steps on Healing Word too much, so if I were ever to run a game, I'd houserule StD to be bonus action casting. Bad enough they get no HP and you have to physically touch them (bringing you right up to the scary thing that killed them).

Demanding physical contact + your entire precious solitary action to not even get them to 1 HP is just too damn weak at any level, even 1.

[Dalebert]

I'm actually of the opinion that STD is fine where it stands, and it is the kits that need shifting to a different role.

I tend to agree with this part actually. It always struck me as absurd that there's this amazing tech that auto-stabilizes anyone without a check. That almost seems magical. And it's the existence of such along with how ridiculously cheap they are that makes the cantrip seem so worthless. If anything, I think the folks who take StD are doing so because they're ignorant of the existence and usefulness of the kits because when you say they auto-stabilize someone for an action, their jaws always seem to drop.


In my games, the kits cost ten times as much, and take a full minute to use. However, the user can make a medicine check to duplicate the effects of the Healer feat (said feat just no longer exists). Botch the check and waste the charge, but at minimum, the patient won't bleed out while you're trying.

The only problem with that is a minute is too long to stabilize someone. I'd say they give folks advantage on a medicine check to stabilize and you could say if you have a minute, you can get the benefits of the healer's feat. That's probably the change I would make in a homebrew setting, and then I'd leave StD alone.

Honestly, death is not quite scary enough in this game. It's a minor debuff that comes with a considerable buff to out of combat healing options. Basically the party could spend a minute patching up after a fight, benefiting in this way only once per short rest and at the cost of 5gp each. If healer's kits had that healing benefit, parties would gladly invest the cash into them. It would save them on healing potions and spell slots.

[Maxilian]

I can't imagine it's a common situation where...
1) a char has Spare the Dying (Cleric cantrip) *and* Find Familiar (Wizard, Warlock, Magic Initiate, Bard), but not Healing Word
2) another char is one save from full death, and char #1 can't get there in time except with their familiar

If you think it's worth a cantrip slot for the above scenario, then by all means. I'd literally take any other cantrip -- even Blade Ward, which theoretically could be useful when Quickened.

In the above scenario, you most likely don't have Healing Word, cause there's no need, Cure Wounds is a touch ability that can be delivered by the Familiar.

[Kryx]

I tend to agree with this part actually. It always struck me as absurd that there's this amazing tech that auto-stabilizes anyone without a check. That almost seems magical. And it's the existence of such along with how ridiculously cheap they are that makes the cantrip seem so worthless. If anything, I think the folks who take StD are doing so because they're ignorant of the existence and usefulness of the kits because when you say they auto-stabilize someone for an action, their jaws always seem to drop.
Agreed. Which is why I have the kits give advantage on Medicine checks. It helps that skill while also making this cantrip worth picking.

[KorvinStarmast]

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/05/can-you-use-the-healers-kit-to-stabilize-a-pc-if-you-dont-have-the-medicine-skill-prof/

I've been saying this for a while. Unless it's a freebie for you, I find it hard to justify taking StD when healer's kits are so cheap and do the exact same thing and just as fast.

That said, I have heard one good argument for StD.
Here's a great idea. When you play the cleric, you take/don't take whatever cantrips you think fit the character best. If someone else is playing the cleric, don't try to micromanage that person. As to the light cantrip, it is handy in a lot of ways, particularly when there are humans in the party. (

In the interests of peace, nothing further to add.

[Tanarii]

You cast it on something in off-time and now you have a permanent light source. You can just cover it up when you don't want light.That gives you one light source that you spent 50gp on. That's either tactically limiting to what's effectively a 50gp torch for a spell slot, that you're always keeping on your person. Or unsustainable to use tactically, which involved multiple castings and not actually standing anywhere near them afterwards.


I'm actually of the opinion that STD is fine where it stands, and it is the kits that need shifting to a different role.I also agree with this. My main mechanical complaint is they make Medicine a much less valuable skill.

[odigity]

Here's a great idea. When you play the cleric, you take/don't take whatever cantrips you think fit the character best. If someone else is playing the cleric, don't try to micromanage that person. As to the light cantrip, it is handy in a lot of ways, particularly when there are humans in the party. (

In the interests of peace, nothing further to add.

This thread is for the purpose of discussing whether StD is worth taking.

Your comment was that people shouldn't discuss it.

That's technically not really contributing to the discussion.

[KorvinStarmast]

Your comment was that people shouldn't discuss it.
That right there is a false statement. I suggest you actually read my response, and see if I said people should not discuss it. My response was to the OP. That was my addition to this already ongoing discussion.

Thread title: Stop taking Spare the Dying cantrip

Thread thesis statement: making an argument to support that command.

My response is a frame challenge, the point being that it isn't your business if you aren't playing the cleric.
As a subordinate point, and one which Dalebert somewhat concedes in his opener, not everyone does optimization to death. That point is often lost on participants in the discussions here.

My first cleric, Life, took STD.
My second cleric: Tempest, didn't.
Reason: theme. (Similar to the point Pex raised).

My original post got eaten, but I in that attempt I pointed to a possible use that we discussed before, and that has some further discussion here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/62896/22566).

I now add it as it was part of my originally intended response that got eaten.

[Dalebert]

FWIW, as a general rule, I don't challenge PCs at the table on their builds no matter how suboptimal I might think they are. It's just rude and none of my business and the most important thing is for everyone to have fun. Starting drama at the table is counter to that and should generally be avoided. If I do have a suggestion, I'll be as tactful as possible about presenting it and if rejected, I just drop it. It's challenging sometimes but yeah. Theory and discussion of the game is appropriate here on a game forum though. It's on me that the title of the thread is a little click-baity, but it's just a discussion opener.

[odigity]

Thread thesis statement: making an argument to support that command.

My response is a frame challenge, the point being that it isn't your business if you aren't playing the cleric.


It's not a command, as he neither employs nor owns as slaves any user of this forum, to my knowledge. It's a dramatic / emphatic phrasing of a suggestion.

To say it isn't his business is to suggest that one should not ever make suggestions to other players -- at which point these forums would be empty.

[odigity]

FWIW, as a general rule, I don't challenge PCs at the table on their builds no matter how suboptimal I might think they are. It's just rude and none of my business and the most important thing is for everyone to have fun. Starting drama at the table is counter to that and should generally be avoided. If I do have a suggestion, I'll be as tactful as possible about presenting it and if rejected, I just drop it. It's challenging sometimes but yeah. Theory and discussion of the game is appropriate here on a game forum though. It's on me that the title of the thread is a little click-baity, but it's just a discussion opener.

I can confirm this. I'm pretty sure Dalebert started this thread because of a player we both recently played with who made many poor character and tactical decisions, taking StD being merely one of them. Neither of us said anything negative at the game because it could end up being received poorly, souring the table vibe, and if done in front of other players, could also trigger a sense of embarrassment.

That's why we who care about improving our own and each other's games come here, to ask advice and make suggestions.

Bottom line: You are currently impeding this discussion, rather than contributing to it.

[SillyPopeNachos]

A healer's kit can only benefit someone once per rest. Healing word is restricted by spell slots. Spare the dying is not limited by such resources. On a battlefield, which do you find more useful? And given the bounded accuracy of 5e, mass combat should be more common than prior editions. Hopefully one day your inner peace won't be linked with the choices of others.

[georgie_leech]

It's not a command, as he neither employs nor owns as slaves any user of this forum, to my knowledge. It's a dramatic / emphatic phrasing of a suggestion.

To say it isn't his business is to suggest that one should not ever make suggestions to other players -- at which point these forums would be empty.

Point of Order, "Stop doing X" is indeed a command. It's phrased in the imperative; it's telling people to not do something. Whether they have any expectation of people following this command is beside the point. "Halt, in the name of the law!" is a fairly common police stock phrase that they use in TV even if no one ever listens. :smalltongue: "I think people should stop doing X," or "I think people who do X are stupid," are a suggestion and opinion respectively.

Anyway, as written StD really is rather underwhelming for the cost (a cantrip known). Flavorful as all get out, but sub-optimal from a strict optimisation perspective. I don't think that's the only perspective you should use when making a character, but it's hard to argue it's not a mechanically poor choice. After all, you generally will have more opportunities to spend 5 gp than you will to learn a new cantrip.

[NNescio]

A healer's kit can only benefit someone once per rest. Healing word is restricted by spell slots. Spare the dying is not limited by such resources.

Healer's kit can be used as many times as you want to stabilize the same creature. The "once-per short/long rest" limitation only comes into play when you use the Healer feat to heal 1d6 + 4 + number of hit dice to a creature (the 2nd bullet point), and the limitation only applies to restoring HP with the Healer feat (so you can still use the stabilize function as much as you want, but they no longer gain +1 HP from the first bullet point of the Healer feat until they finish a short/long rest).


On a battlefield, which do you find more useful? And given the bounded accuracy of 5e, mass combat should be more common than prior editions. Hopefully one day your inner peace won't be linked with the choices of others.

Mass combat has a tendency to slow down the game a lot, especially if the combatants are on the PC's side. And really, most NPCs and monsters just flat-out die when they hit 0HP instead of going through the whole death saving throw rigmarole.

On the rare occasion where you need to heal or stabilize a bunch of people with battlefield injuries (a contrived scenario deliberately set up by the DM)... well, just use Medicine checks, that's what it is for (really, the skill is mostly useless otherwise). Wis-based characters have a fair chance to succeed even without proficiency, and the Bard can apply half his proficiency modifier to any nonproficient skill.

[JumboWheat01]

I see no reason to not take Spare the Dying. Clerics, by 10th level, have 5 cantrip slots. Clerics also only have 7 cantrips, of which 2 are "necessary," Guidance and Sacred Flame. Let's look at the others.

Thaumaturgy - Your "I'm a Cleric!" cantrip. Does flashy little things. Fun, but not needed.

Spare the Dying - Avoid Medicine rolls or paying for Healing Kits.

Resistance - A one-off +d4 to a saving throw roll for one person in touch range. Kinda touchy to use.

Mending - Fix things. Slowly. And if the damage isn't too big.

Light - Your "I don't have Darkvision" tax.

Really, there's not a whole lot of choice. Heck, I made a Tiefling Cleric one time, and I HAD no choice on my cantrips, Thaumaturgy was already built into my character and Light wasn't needed, I had Darkvision. If you go full Cleric, or at least 10 levels worth, Spare the Dying is a great option because you have no real options to choose from.

[R.Shackleford]

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/05/can-you-use-the-healers-kit-to-stabilize-a-pc-if-you-dont-have-the-medicine-skill-prof/

I've been saying this for a while. Unless it's a freebie for you, I find it hard to justify taking StD when healer's kits are so cheap and do the exact same thing and just as fast.

That said, I have heard one good argument for StD. You can do it with one hand so you don't have to drop your weapon(s) and/or shield. Still, it's so rare that I don't at least have and want to use a Healing Word when someone drops which is SO much better anyway. I just find that the cases for needing StD drop to being pretty rare.

Also, it's not like cleric cantrips are that great. Maybe you feel like the opportunity cost for taking it isn't that great anyway. You definitely want Guidance and Sacred Flame. No question. At the very least, you want Sacred Flame by 5th level when it starts doing 2d8. You can easily skip it and use a crossbow from 1 to 4. Still, it's crucial against some undead when you really need steady radiant damage, vampires but also nice against zombies. Resistance is arguably a lot more useful then StD also. You can cast it right before you go through a dungeon door, e.g. anytime an encounter is potentially imminent, and thus be prepared for being ambushed by a breath weapon or area spell.

StD isn't as completely useless as I once thought but it's approaching it. Oh, and druids FOR SURE should not take it. Their opportunity cost is much higher with better options for cantrips than clerics.

I like to combine spare the dying with thaumaturgy.

[odigity]

I agree the cantrip selection for Clerics is unforgiveably bad. I assume they didn't give the Cleric and attack cantrips so they don't step on the arcane casters, especially since they're given mundane weapon/armor proficiencies. (Sacred Flame is technically not an attack-based spell, since it uses a save, though obviously it is a dmg spell.)

They could have come up with one or two other combat cantrips that are more Cleric-y then merely being a typical melee/ranged spell attack like Firebolt/Shocking Grasp. Something like:

- action, concentration, make your melee weapon do radiant dmg (maybe even add 1/2 prof bonus to dmg, since concentration is increasingly high price to pay as you level up)
- a second cantrip like Sacred Flame (save-based dmg), but targeting a different save with less dmg and an interesting rider effect, like Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp do

Come to think of it, why the heck don't they get Chill Touch? That spell is very cleric-y. It's necromancy and it prevents healing...

[KorvinStarmast]

To say it isn't his business. Given that his response more or less agrees with my point on that, it appears that Dalebert and I agree on that bit.

[KorvinStarmast]

Bottom line: You are currently impeding this discussion, rather than contributing to it. Your second false statement. Each of us contributes to it, and it has continued, and may well continue. No impediment to discussion in evidence. Someone taking a position you do not agree with is not impediment to discussion. It is an element of discussion.

[Daishain]

If you make the kits inefficient to useless then of course Spare The Dying would look more attractive. With Healer feat gone magic is trumping mundane once again. Still, good point on usefulness of the spell for battlefield play. Keeps multitude of NPCs alive until more proper care can be given as campaign flavor text.
You missed the point. The healer feat isn't truly gone, its more accessible than before, if with some additional limits that partly offset the need to burn a precious ABI on it. Healer's kits may take more time to use, but that makes sense as I cannot imagine a professional but mundane battlefield medic making a real difference in less than six seconds, let alone some random schmuck who picked up a boxo'bandages (even a minute is incredibly remarkable). To claim that magic trumps mundane is false as now the healer's kits do more than their previous magical competition in most situations. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages

This homebrew rule isn't perfect, (and I would gladly welcome suggestions to improve) its a quick patch on a perceived problem. But aside from preserving the niche of STD and making the kits somewhat more realistic, it provides a notable source of non magical out of combat healing (with enough limitations to prevent unmanageable abuse in regards to game balance), and elevates the importance of the Medicine skill, which normally is considered by many to be the single most useless in all of 5E. This is a good change in my opinion, clerics and other magical healers are by far and away the most efficient medics in the game, but people shouldn't be wholly dependent on them either.



The only problem with that is a minute is too long to stabilize someone. I'd say they give folks advantage on a medicine check to stabilize and you could say if you have a minute, you can get the benefits of the healer's feat. That's probably the change I would make in a homebrew setting, and then I'd leave StD alone.

That could work as well, though perhaps I should have clarified that the need for death saves are suspended while the patient is being worked on, so the extra time taken is a moot issue. He's not actually considered stable and will resume dying if the med check fails, but even an incompetent healer can delay death this way.

[Dalebert]

That could work as well, though perhaps I should have clarified that the need for death saves are suspended while the patient is being worked on, so the extra time taken is a moot issue. He's not actually considered stable and will resume dying if the med check fails, but even an incompetent healer can delay death this way.

Your nerf makes them not as good as a medicine check without a kit which has a chance to stabilize in one action. Are you nerfing medicine checks as well to make someone spend a minute to stabilize someone? I would strongly suggest that if you're just trying to stabilize rather than actually give hp, you just make them grant advantage on a medicine check. At the very least, they shouldn't penalize someone. There's a 55% chance the person would have stabilized if you don't start helping and you're delaying their recovery by using an expensive kit which makes no sense.

Maybe you want a higher risk of death for the flavor of your game which this definitely represents. That's fine. At the very least, you should ignore only the failed death saves while someone is spending their actions to stabilize, allowing someone to possibly still stabilize on their own. Meanwhile, if this is happening in combat, you may not be able to continue working on them due to blades swinging at you or what-not.

But here's a compromise. When someone is spending their action to stabilize you, you ignore failed checks while successful checks still count. If you make your medicine check (with adv with a kit), they auto-succeed on the check. This way it takes no more than 3 rounds of your actions to stabilize someone and the more expensive kit is definitely worth investing in. 3 rounds makes it a significant investment in combat but still possible and without a 55% chance of penalizing you for the attempt, i.e. the chance they would have stabilized without help.

That's probably what I would implement but I'm running almost all AL games so I don't have the option.

[RickAllison]

I much prefer the homebrew Omen cantrip by the ever-wonderful DracoKnight. Why Spare the Dying when I can condemn their souls to fueling the war machine of my deity? Much more useful cantrip :smallbiggrin:

[Vogonjeltz]

I've been saying this for a while. Unless it's a freebie for you, I find it hard to justify taking StD when healer's kits are so cheap and do the exact same thing and just as fast.

5gp isn't actually 'cheap' in the context of the game. That's living like a noble for a day as opposed to say, like a beggar.

It also has some weight, so as you noted, the cantrip requires neither weight nor money, nor can it be lost, used up, or taken away.

Spare the Dying is objectively superior, which is why players take it. Not in spite of the existence of a healer's kit, but because it's better than a healer's kit.

[Dalebert]

5gp isn't actually 'cheap' in the context of the game.

For what is likely a one time ever cost, it really is quite cheap. It's not analogous to a daily cost like noble cost of living. If you want to calculate a daily cost for a healer's kit, divide it by the days in the entire span of a character's career, because you likely won't use all 10 of the uses.

Have you read the thread? All you've done is stated your disagreement without any supporting arguments, while this thread is loaded with arguments for why it really is quite cheap and why StD isn't worth blowing a cantrip slot. You're free to disagree, of course, just as others have, but they gave some arguments for their position.

[mAc Chaos]

What if you make it so you can't normally do Medicine checks to stabilize somebody -- you can ONLY do it with a Healing Kit?

Then StD becomes more useful and healing people left and right from the kits becomes less trivial. Someone would need Medicine to do it well, which makes sense. Or even make it so you can't even try without the Medicine proficiency...

[AerykVyrion]

Alternatively, you could have spare the dying give a choice: either stabilize a dying creature, or finish them off (dying creature immediately fails 3 death saving throws).
This would increase the number of situations it can be used in, and adds a ton of flavor. I know that you could also continue attacking the creature, but that that doesn't 100% guarantee that it dies right away.

[Pex]

Alternatively, you could have spare the dying give a choice: either stabilize a dying creature, or finish them off (dying creature immediately fails 3 death saving throws).
This would increase the number of situations it can be used in, and adds a ton of flavor. I know that you could also continue attacking the creature, but that that doesn't 100% guarantee that it dies right away.

Maybe, but not at first character level. Have it scale as other cantrips. At 1st character level it just forces an immediate roll. At 5th level it counts as 1 autofail. At 11th level it counts as two autofails. At 17th level it counts as three autofails. Of course, the ability is moot if the DM doesn't bother with death saving throws for the bad guys, but it is good for flavor. Still, I have played with DMs who have the bad guys heal their side.

[DracoKnight]

I much prefer the homebrew Omen cantrip by the ever-wonderful DracoKnight. Why Spare the Dying when I can condemn their souls to fueling the war machine of my deity? Much more useful cantrip :smallbiggrin:

I'm so glad you enjoy it! How is it fairing in play??

[RickAllison]

I'm so glad you enjoy it! How is it fairing in play??

We are still waiting for the DM to start up his campaign for the year! But I'm very excited for it :smallwink:

[DracoKnight]

We are still waiting for the DM to start up his campaign for the year! But I'm very excited for it :smallwink:

Well, when you do play, I'm excited to hear how it plays! :smallbiggrin:

[rollingForInit]

Spare the Dying seems fine if you've got cantrips to spare (the cleric list isn't that large to begin with). Good to have as a last resort if you're out of healing kits and someone is dying.

Beside that, it seems good for role-playing purposes. Much more thematic for a Cleric to just say a prayer and stabilise someone.