How many DMs allow non-gnome Shadowcraft Mages and Early Entry?

[RoboEmperor]

My DM believes consensus is king so he wants a consensus among veteran DMs.

1. If you are DM, do you allow non-gnome Shadowcraft Mages that invoke the adaptation rule that replaces the racial requirement with an organization requirement? (Must be a member of a cabal of illusionists). How about going a little further and instead of joining a cabal, you join or create any illusion focused based organization?

2. In general he claims ability to cast one 4th level spell =/= ability to cast 4th level spells, so all early entry shenanigans using heighten spell fail. So using Earth Spell to heighten a level 2 spell to a level 4 spell =/= ability to cast 4th level spells, because the wizard still cannot cast 4th level spells until level 7, and the same rules extend to sorcerers.

He extends the same logic to shadowcraft mage's level 4 shadow spell requirement. A level 2 shadow spell is not a 4th level shadow spell. When heightened to 4th level, it is still not a 4th level shadow spell, but a 2nd level heightened to 4th level, therefore does not allow early entry. In otherwords, if there is a complete list of 4th level shadow spells, a heightened 2nd level shadow spell is not in that list.

So as a DM, do you agree or disagree with this?

[Necroticplague]

As a DM,I usually dispense of all racial prerequisites unless the mechanics or logic of it closely require it. I mean, a class is just something you learn, so unless it requires something only your race has as a racial feature, no reason others can't learn it. The related gnome racial trait is both not unique to gnomes, and not really strong enough to justify the prerequisite in my view.

As per your DMs beef about early entry, he's flat out wrong. There is no distinction between 'a fourth level spell' and 'a spell heightened to fourth level'. I mean, if he's saying heighten spell doesn't make the spell a higher level, what does it do?


Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. note that it says 'all effects'. Not just some of them, all of them. That would include purposes of qualifying for a PRC.

[AnachroNinja]

Pretty much agree 100%. Racial requirements are silly in my opinion, just forcing someone to use fluff they don't enjoy, especially since gnomes are actually powerful for that class, your actually forcing them to play a stronger character at the cost of flavor.

As far as the early entry, as noted he is completely wrong. Point out to him that spells don't actually have an inherent level. A 4th level spell for a wizard might be a fifth level spell for a cleric. The only thing that matters is "effective spell level" which means either the level your class happens to cast it at normally, or the level it is heightened to, because it explicitly changes its spell level for all purposes related to it.

In addition, while early entry is nice and you get access to some near tricks early, this is one of those cases where someone trying to get in early is investing build resources that could be used for MUCH more powerful things. So I wouldn't worry about it to much. Early entry gets a bad rap in my opinion. I'd just be glad my players not using venerable Dragonwrought loredrake Kobold to get in early and call it a day.

[ComaVision]

Nothing new to say. I would gladly ignore the prerequisite and allow early entry.

[RoboEmperor]

As per your DMs beef about early entry, he's flat out wrong. There is no distinction between 'a fourth level spell' and 'a spell heightened to fourth level'. I mean, if he's saying heighten spell doesn't make the spell a higher level, what does it do?

note that it says 'all effects'. Not just some of them, all of them. That would include purposes of qualifying for a PRC.

My DM is a computer programmer so he kind of applies everything he does into computer logic.

He's treating "ability to cast 4th level spells" sort of like a feat. You have this feat you can prepare and cast 4th level spells, if you don't, you can't. Wizards gain this feat at level 7. PrCs check if the character has this feat. Heightening spells to 4th level still doesn't grant you this feat ergo no PrC early entry. He's saying although you can cast 4th level spells via earth spell, you still don't have the ability.

Likewise he's treating the shadowcraft mage prerequisite similarly. Must possess one 4th level shadow spell = check every shadow spell the wizard's spellbook for a 4th level shadow spell. Because heightened spells are not in the wizard's spellbook, they are not actually "spells" for prerequisites.

[magicalmagicman]

My DM is a computer programmer so he kind of applies everything he does into computer logic.

He's treating "ability to cast 4th level spells" sort of like a feat. You have this feat you can prepare and cast 4th level spells, if you don't, you can't. Wizards gain this feat at level 7. PrCs check if the character has this feat. Heightening spells to 4th level still doesn't grant you this feat ergo no PrC early entry. He's saying although you can cast 4th level spells via earth spell, you still don't have the ability.

Likewise he's treating the shadowcraft mage prerequisite similarly. Must possess one 4th level shadow spell = check every shadow spell the wizard's spellbook for a 4th level shadow spell. Because heightened spells are not in the wizard's spellbook, they are not actually "spells" for prerequisites.

Reading shadowcraft mage, I think your DM is wrong. I mean his logic could apply to other PrCs but not shadowcraft mage.

The character just needs to be able to cast a 4th level shadow spell.

He does NOT NEED TO KNOW a 4th level shadow spell, he just needs to be able to cast one, and heightened spell makes a spell a 4th level.

So again, his logic can prevent you from early entry into other PrCs, but not this one.

As for non-gnome shadowcraft mages, it's right there in the RAW. Non gnomes can become it by joining a cabal. RAW DMs have no recourse but to allow non gnome shadowcraft mages.

[DarkSoul]

My DM believes consensus is king so he wants a consensus among veteran DMs.

1. If you are DM, do you allow non-gnome Shadowcraft Mages that invoke the adaptation rule that replaces the racial requirement with an organization requirement? (Must be a member of a cabal of illusionists). How about going a little further and instead of joining a cabal, you join or create any illusion focused based organization?

2. In general he claims ability to cast one 4th level spell =/= ability to cast 4th level spells, so all early entry shenanigans using heighten spell fail. So using Earth Spell to heighten a level 2 spell to a level 4 spell =/= ability to cast 4th level spells, because the wizard still cannot cast 4th level spells until level 7, and the same rules extend to sorcerers.

He extends the same logic to shadowcraft mage's level 4 shadow spell requirement. A level 2 shadow spell is not a 4th level shadow spell. When heightened to 4th level, it is still not a 4th level shadow spell, but a 2nd level heightened to 4th level, therefore does not allow early entry. In otherwords, if there is a complete list of 4th level shadow spells, a heightened 2nd level shadow spell is not in that list.

So as a DM, do you agree or disagree with this?For the first point, I generally stick with racial requirements on prestige classes (generally; exceptions can be made on a case-by-case basis). For the second point, I agree with your DM. If you don't have 4th level spell slots available to prepare/cast spells with, you can't cast 4th-level spells, period. You can use different tricks to amplify the potency of your lower-level spells all you want, but that doesn't mean you can cast 4th level spells before the level your class says you can.

The reason I keep these rules in place is to keep characters from getting completely out of control. It's the same reason I keep multiclassing xp penalties, too. If a player is completely set on having a particular prestige class only available to this specific race, then play that race. No, you can't play this other race that can combine an ability from this prestige class with another ability from this class over here and dip these three base classes for 1, 3, and 5 levels each and end up with something that completely overpowers the campaign. If that means you don't get to play the character you want, fine, because dealing with a borderline-TO-level character isn't the kind of game I want.

Otherwise you end up in an arms race of sorts that usually ends with some variation of "A great wyrm time dragon appears in front of your party. It looks at your level 4 selves, glares at the one with three classes in four levels and says 'You're going to be a real jerk in about ten years. You've got this coming, whether you believe me or not.' and eats you all."

[ComaVision]

Otherwise you end up in an arms race of sorts that usually ends with some variation of "A great wyrm time dragon appears in front of your party. It looks at your level 4 selves, glares at the one with three classes in four levels and says 'You're going to be a real jerk in about ten years. You've got this coming, whether you believe me or not.' and eats you all."

How dare those filthy mundanes try to have nice things.

[DarkSoul]

How dare those filthy mundanes try to have nice things.I know, right?

[Necroticplague]

My DM is a computer programmer so he kind of applies everything he does into computer logic.

He's treating "ability to cast 4th level spells" sort of like a feat. You have this feat you can prepare and cast 4th level spells, if you don't, you can't. Wizards gain this feat at level 7. PrCs check if the character has this feat. Heightening spells to 4th level still doesn't grant you this feat ergo no PrC early entry. He's saying although you can cast 4th level spells via earth spell, you still don't have the ability.

Likewise he's treating the shadowcraft mage prerequisite similarly. Must possess one 4th level shadow spell = check every shadow spell the wizard's spellbook for a 4th level shadow spell. Because heightened spells are not in the wizard's spellbook, they are not actually "spells" for prerequisites.

As a fellow computer programmer, the kind of logic that applies there is also what applies to this situation, and is what shows this works fairly clearly. He's making up distinctions that have no actual basis in the rules.

A better programmer-type way would be something like this:

IF cancastshadow(caster,4)==TRUE, prereqmet=true

with cancastshadow(characer, int) being a function that returns True if any of the shadow spells that character can cast exceeds the spell level integer the function takes in, and false otherwise. In this scenario, it would go through all spells that the character can cast, which include Heightened Wall of Gloom*. Since this is a fourth level spell, it would make the function return True, and thus prereqmet also true. To say otherwise is to split hairs in a way that is simultaneously incredibly nitpicky, and in blatant violation of the rules. Analogies are useful, but they are not the actual rules. And the actual rules very plainly state a spell Heightened to 4th level is, in fact, a fourth level spell, for all purposes (implicitly including meeting the prerequisites of PRCs, since that falls under 'all').




*can be other spell, but this is the first low level shadow spell that pops into my head.

[Douglas]

My DM is a computer programmer so he kind of applies everything he does into computer logic.

He's treating "ability to cast 4th level spells" sort of like a feat. You have this feat you can prepare and cast 4th level spells, if you don't, you can't. Wizards gain this feat at level 7. PrCs check if the character has this feat. Heightening spells to 4th level still doesn't grant you this feat ergo no PrC early entry. He's saying although you can cast 4th level spells via earth spell, you still don't have the ability.

Likewise he's treating the shadowcraft mage prerequisite similarly. Must possess one 4th level shadow spell = check every shadow spell the wizard's spellbook for a 4th level shadow spell. Because heightened spells are not in the wizard's spellbook, they are not actually "spells" for prerequisites.
That is a reasonable house rule, but it is a house rule.

I am also a computer programmer, and while I think most computer game implementations of D&D probably would work that way, it would be in large part because of ease of implementation. A computer game that worked that way while purporting to follow D&D RAW would be in violation of its specifications. A prerequisite of the form "ability to do X" is satisfied if you are able to respond to a request to do X by, in fact, doing X. Doesn't matter how, just that you can.

The proper way to implement such a requirement, without having to individually account for every possible way to do things in unorthodox fashions, would be to have a testing chamber. You indicate you want to take a level of Shadowcraft Mage and are ready for it, the game takes you to a special test chamber, and you leave by either giving up or casting a 4th level spell, with whatever combination of abilities you put together.

With that said, it is fairly likely that the D&D designers did not intend for Heighten Spell and similar abilities to interact with prerequisites that way, and it's fair to house rule it differently. Just note that it is a house rule.

[RoboEmperor]

@necroticplague + magicalmagicman

Yeah I think you guys gave me enough to work with.

I guess the determining question is, does a heightened wall of gloom = 4th level shadow spell?

As magicalmagicman said, you don't need to know a 4th level spell, which in my opinion, gives way to considerable leeway.

So I guess the only problem here would be whether the PrC checks the heightened spell, or the the base spell. I think he also said "A metamagicked spell is not a spell, it's a metamagicked spell. You can't scribe metamagicked spells into wizard spellbooks. PrCs only check spells"

I just need hard proof saying metamagicked spells are "spells". I mean I know you can scribe metamagicked spells onto scrolls, but how about wizard spellbooks? Is he right about that?

@Douglas

Yeah the "test room" could lead to some interesting discussions. PrCs are like a job. If you can lift 100lbs, you got the job. Doesn't matter if you use your own muscles or bring a crane, as long as you can lift the 100lbs, you can get the job done.

So with that logic, you just need to be able to cast a shadow spell of 4th level power or higher to do all the magic in that PrC.

[AvatarVecna]

My DM believes consensus is king so he wants a consensus among veteran DMs.

1. If you are DM, do you allow non-gnome Shadowcraft Mages that invoke the adaptation rule that replaces the racial requirement with an organization requirement? (Must be a member of a cabal of illusionists). How about going a little further and instead of joining a cabal, you join or create any illusion focused based organization?

2. In general he claims ability to cast one 4th level spell =/= ability to cast 4th level spells, so all early entry shenanigans using heighten spell fail. So using Earth Spell to heighten a level 2 spell to a level 4 spell =/= ability to cast 4th level spells, because the wizard still cannot cast 4th level spells until level 7, and the same rules extend to sorcerers.

He extends the same logic to shadowcraft mage's level 4 shadow spell requirement. A level 2 shadow spell is not a 4th level shadow spell. When heightened to 4th level, it is still not a 4th level shadow spell, but a 2nd level heightened to 4th level, therefore does not allow early entry. In otherwords, if there is a complete list of 4th level shadow spells, a heightened 2nd level shadow spell is not in that list.

So as a DM, do you agree or disagree with this?

Early Entry works by RAW, and there's not really a good reason to disallow it; it's not like casters aren't going to dominate the game if they aren't allowed to jump into a PrC two levels earlier, it just means that they have to wait a tiny bit longer to break the game, while the rest of the party has to tolerate waiting forever to break the game. If your DM's argument against Early Entry is "I don't think it's RAW legal", he's wrong. If your DM's argument against Early Entry is "it favors casters more than non-casters", early entry into ScM shouldn't be a problem because if he's actually following that logic, he either banned casters across the board or is DMing a game system that isn't D&D. If your DM's argument against Early Entry is "it feels wrong, so I'm banning it", that's well within his rights, but it means he doesn't get to hide behind bull**** excuses for why he's not allowing it to work.

[Beheld]

1) I would waive all racial pre-reqs, and also all organizational pre-reqs. If a Wizard wants to study in his tower all day every day until he can illusion up some real stuff, that's his business.

2) RAW to me is very clear that you can early entry shadowcraft mage. If I were in a game where Shadowcraft Mage was acceptable at all, I would allow early entry, no one should have to wait till level 8 to play the character they want.

[Necroticplague]

So I guess the only problem here would be whether the PrC checks the heightened spell, or the the base spell. I think he also said "A metamagicked spell is not a spell, it's a metamagicked spell. You can't scribe metamagicked spells into wizard spellbooks. PrCs only check spells"

I just need hard proof saying metamagicked spells are "spells". I mean I know you can scribe metamagicked spells onto scrolls, but how about wizard spellbooks? Is he right about that?

Again, he's splitting hairs along arbitrary lines that aren't in the rules. There is no such thing as a 'metamagicked spell'. There is only 'a spell that has had a metamagic feat applied to it during either it's casting or preparation'. Or to go back to the programming analogy, 'spell' is a class of objects, which has several attributes. One of these attributes would be 'hasmeta'. Even things with 'hasmeta=true', are still spell class objects. He is right about the part where you don't put metamagiced spells in a spellbook, but that's because that's not the way metamagic works. You add metamagic to a spell when it's prepared or cast, not when it's gained as a spell known (i.e, you don't need a sorceror to burn spells known for every new metamagic they get). And the process of writing a spell in a spellbook is, in fact, increasing a wizard's spells known.

[AnachroNinja]

Long and the short of it is, everyone agrees, by the rules early entry works. That does not mean he has to follow the rules, but those are the rules.

[Troacctid]

1. If you are DM, do you allow non-gnome Shadowcraft Mages that invoke the adaptation rule that replaces the racial requirement with an organization requirement? (Must be a member of a cabal of illusionists).
Yeah, that's fine, depending on the setting. I'd probably ask you to have some link to the Plane of Shadow as a replacement prerequisite—e.g. dark template, shadow-walker template, illumian, maybe a feat like Penumbra Bloodline/Shadow Heritage/Planar Touchstone (The Veil), that sort of thing.


How about going a little further and instead of joining a cabal, you join or create any illusion focused based organization?
Not sure I understand how another organization is going to be meaningfully different from a cabal.


2. In general he claims ability to cast one 4th level spell =/= ability to cast 4th level spells, so all early entry shenanigans using heighten spell fail. So using Earth Spell to heighten a level 2 spell to a level 4 spell =/= ability to cast 4th level spells, because the wizard still cannot cast 4th level spells until level 7, and the same rules extend to sorcerers.

He extends the same logic to shadowcraft mage's level 4 shadow spell requirement. A level 2 shadow spell is not a 4th level shadow spell. When heightened to 4th level, it is still not a 4th level shadow spell, but a 2nd level heightened to 4th level, therefore does not allow early entry. In otherwords, if there is a complete list of 4th level shadow spells, a heightened 2nd level shadow spell is not in that list.
I don't personally subscribe to this interpretation, but I think it is perfectly reasonable, as that is clearly the intent of the rule. I would not fault a DM for this ruling.

I do disagree with his reasoning for the ruling, though, as asking for "spells" (plural) disqualifies a caster who has natural access to 4th level spells but only has one 4th level spell known, such as an 8th level sorcerer. That is not the intent.

[AnachroNinja]

What if a wizard has no 4th level spells known, but he has 4th level slots that he uses to cast heightened and metamagiced 2nd level spells? Does he qualify then?

[AvatarVecna]

What if a wizard has no 4th level spells known, but he has 4th level slots that he uses to cast heightened and metamagiced 2nd level spells? Does he qualify then?

If he is capable of casting a 4th lvl Shadow spell, he qualifies. Now, this requires some combination of metamagic reducers that work on Heighten, such as Easy Metamagic (which is Dragon Mag and thus isn't generally considered automatically allowed by the online community outside of TO discussion) and Earth Spell (which isn't exactly metamagic reduction per se). With both of those, you could use a 2nd lvl slot to cast a Shadow Spell Heightened to 4th lvl, which makes it a 4th lvl Shadow spell for all purposes.

[Necroticplague]

If he is capable of casting a 4th lvl Shadow spell, he qualifies. Now, this requires some combination of metamagic reducers that work on Heighten, such as Easy Metamagic (which is Dragon Mag and thus isn't generally considered automatically allowed by the online community outside of TO discussion) and Earth Spell (which isn't exactly metamagic reduction per se). With both of those, you could use a 2nd lvl slot to cast a Shadow Spell Heightened to 4th lvl, which makes it a 4th lvl Shadow spell for all purposes.

There's also Sanctum Spell, which is mechanically identical to Heighten Spell under certain circumstances. But the lowest feat investment method is Eldritch Corruption, which Heightens a spell by two levels, and only has one simple prereq.